Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Do you believe in a God
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
And if your life brings more pain, doubt, or destruction than love, faith, and peace, then your life is effectively worthless.
And that quote of mine might be able to be used for God as well. Has God brought more pain, doubt, or destruction on this world than love, faith, and peace? He has certainly brought pain and destruction, but in many instances to me it seems as justice. I'm not sure about the Nadab and Abihu issue. They were Priests of God. That is a great honor and with great power comes great responsibility. If the commander of a nuclear submarine screws up and launches a missile when he's not supposed to, then he has really screwed up. If those who are meant to be ambassadors or representatives of God screw up even once, then a flood of doubt comes into play as is already evidenced by people claiming to be Followers of Christ and then screwing up. It doesn't work for the best of humanity.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
There is also this issue. Check out this site though: http://www.ktc.net/jcthwychurch/Book%20of%20Luke/book_%20of_%20Luke_Introduction.htm Hit Ctrl+F and search for "Heli" if you want to get to it fast. Start reading around where it mentions Heli. I think, if not all, then many things can be explained in the Bible. The above site offers one explanation of which I haven't fully researched.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
So Do I.. I think that the ten commandments are the basis for what everyone believes is morally right and wrong. This is why i think that Killing another person is wrong... no matter the circumstances.. I dont have, neither should anyone have the right for killing Anyone else. Death is a consequence of Sin. And I am not free of sin... So i will not be the one to cast judgment or through the first stone.. Only one man is free of sin.. And has that right to cast judgment.
I couldn't agree with you more.
Even before the ten commandments those were considered the basis of morality. The ten commandments have no bearing on morality whatsoever, and frankly, I don't think they ever existed. If they did, where are they now? You would think that something as important as that would be kept preserved somewhere, just like the books of the bible.
The only incest that happend was optional, not forced. Even at the creation of Adam and Eve.
As for your last statement, that in itself is a wholly, and completely ignorant statement to make. Showing a true since of ignorance in you when speaking of Christianity.(Take no offense by what I say. When I say ignorance, I do mean lack of knowledge. Not meant as a belittlement.)
The sacrifice of animals was the proverbial, sweeping the dirt under the rug. The dirt was still there though. It wasn't true redemption. Christ came along and became the ultimate sacrifice. Thus putting away the need of sacrifices altogether, because redemption had finally come.
It is not ignorance at all. Sacrafices were performed because that is what they believed would appease god. Whether this is true or not isn't the circumstance, the fact that a whole new belief was in place after the "messiah" came. My point is that, to me, it seems very suspicious. I understand wholly that the acceptance is the redemption, however, that does not change the fact that it creates a perspective that god is unsure.
Imagine you are a follower of god back then and you grew up learning that sacrificing animals to god was the only way to appease his anger towards your sins. Even your priests taught you this. Then imagine one day that some guy comes and says, "well, you're in luck, you don't need to kill anymore of your animals, just believe in me and that's your ticket to heaven". Wouldn't you think that god decided to pursue different avenues of redemption.
Also, imagine if jesus' second coming was near, however, since John was "dreaming" when he saw this vision of revelation (i think the man was high) he got it wrong. There are no scrolling clouds, meteors, water to blood, millions dying, or anything else. Would you believe a man who walked into your church claiming that he is Jesus Christ, the son of God? Would you have that faith, or would you demand him to prove himself?
Lemme explain this.
God creates man, God gives man two paths. Obedience or disobedience. God warns man what will happen if he chooses the path of disobedience.
Man chooses the path of disobedience. Man makes himself mortal by sin. Causing both spiritual and physical death.
Fast forward quite a few centuries. You got a group of people who are called the Israelites.
They become like convicts, without the only chance of parole being the sacrifice of animals. God promises them that one day he will send them a Savior that will make it where as though through him, they will be as if they never sinned. Not even being recognized as "convicts". But where as though through the Son of God, they become as though they never "broke any laws".
I see no uncertainty in God there at all. All I recognize is the wickedness and foolishness of man that got him in the situation where he fell.
1. John was not dreaming.
2. How did he get it wrong?
3. If previous to that coming there was 1/3 of the population destroyed, the beast, the anti-christ. Followed by 1000 years of peace and prosperity, with righteousness on the earth. Followed by satan manifesting himself and wreaking chaos on the people of earth. Followed by Christ coming down through the clouds on a white horse, accompanied by a host of angels. And if for some reason he then decided to go to the local church...Ya...I'd believe it.
Now if none of that happend before, and someone claimed he was Christ. Uhm...No. I wouldn't believe a word he said.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Even before the ten commandments those were considered the basis of morality.
Exodus 20:3-17: Do not worship any other gods besides me. (Is that one of the universally known concepts of morality?) Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a thousand generations. (Is this universally known - even among believers of pagan religions?) Do not misuse the name of the Lord your God. The Lord will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name.
(Plenty of people misuse God's name. That doesn't seem to be universally accepted today or probably even in the day before these commandments) I think it's the last commands that you are referring to such as "do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not testify falsely against your neighbor, etc." Though it does seem that these commandments are given more specifically to God's people during that time, it is also a good basis for everyone - not only the Christian - to follow these commands. Christ, I think, acknowledged that the greatest commands or laws were to love God with your whole and your neighbor as yourself. If you do this, then it is unlikely that you will break any of the Ten Commandments.
and frankly, I don't think they ever existed. If they did, where are they now?
You're asking for the very stone tablets themselves which I believe is unrealistic. How long do you think our Declaration of Independence (or the Constitution) is going to last even given our current state of science to protect it from natural entropy? Thousands of years? The Ten Commandments are right here in the Bible - in Scripture. They might no longer exist, but they're message still does. If even the Ark of the Covenant was able to be captured by the enemies of Israel (or the tribes or whatever), then certainly something could have happened to these tablets.
Sacrafices were performed because that is what they believed would appease god.
Quite likely, I believe. Though I think it is hinted at that it was not that these sacrifices made one righteous before God but the person's faith which was proven (or made complete) by their actions or their deeds (again, faith without works is dead). God, himself, I think states at one point that he doesn't want his people's sacrifices any more - he wants their obedience. Look at the story of Abraham preparing to sacrifice Isaac. Would it have made Abraham righteous in God's eyes to kill his son? No. It was his obedience and faith in God that made him righteous before God. In Genesis 22 it even says at the beginning in my translation, "Later on God tested Abraham's faith and obedience..." I'm still not sure what it means when it says that "God tested" because God, if it is true that he knows all, does not need to test but already knows. The person who wrote this then could have been wrong in saying that "God tested" but I'm not sure about that. At any rate, I'd need a look at varying translations for myself to see what it means and even, perhaps, a look at the "original" texts. "Tested" may possibly mean something different than what someone assumes.
Imagine you are a follower of god back then and you grew up learning that sacrificing animals to god was the only way to appease his anger towards your sins.
Again, when God, through the prophet I think (I forget which one), said that he did not want his people's sacrifices but their obedience just shows that obedience is prized above all (or most) by God. The sacrifices were only temporary as a precursor (symbolism) to Christ's coming sacrifice and the fulfillment of God's promise. You would then have to ask why God allowed the world to exist as long as it did (and does of course), but that is a different matter. More followers means more glory for God and those who do not follow him can be seen as their lives being worthless if they were created to serve and give glory to God and fellowship with him and are not fulfilling this purpose. And if their lives are worthless, then God has also stated that one of us is worth more than a whole flock of sparrows. I don't want to put words into God's mouth or twist it in any manner, but I'd think that why God *partly* allows the world to continue is more for the building of his kingdom and his followers - those who do not follow him choose to make their own lives worthless.
Would you believe a man who walked into your church claiming that he is Jesus Christ, the son of God? Would you have that faith, or would you demand him to prove himself?
If some guy just appeared at the door of a church building one day and said that he was Jesus Christ, then he'd already be discrediting himself. Read Matthew 24:30-31. Unless he arrived "on the clouds of heaven" or made some similar entrance, then I'd have to say that I wouldn't believe in him as Christ but simply as an impersonator.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
There was no choice in the matter. If God is omnipetent (forgive me if spelling is incorrect), then he already knew that man would disobey him.
There was a choice in the matter. Just because God may know everything doesn't mean that there is a lack of free will. I've already stated, saying that if God knows everything then he knew, himself, what he was to do later on. That doesn't mean that God doesn't have free will, but simply means that he knows what will happen and what choices people will make. Is everything determined? Perhaps. And if it is determined already, then it is determined by the choices that people have made, are making, and will make in their free will.
Anyway, I should also let you all know that my last post may have been a little wrong in its assumptions. Just because someone is unfaithful to God does not mean that they have no purpose in their lives. Their lives can be used by God and thus have meaning. Not to mention, we also give a little meaning to our own lives by making decisions of our own.
PS. I've thought of a situation with dice too. If you roll a die, then it appears, in our ignorance, to be chance. But in this universe there is cause and effect. If we were omniscient and knew everything about the die - its exact shape, volume, weight, size, etc. - then we could probably determine what the outcome of the die roll would be before we rolled the die, given the variables of its surrounding environment as well.
PPS. I don't know exactly what I was trying to prove by that last statement, but whatever. Lol.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
God gave adam and Eve a Whole garden... and told them just dont eat this ONE fruit. They had no previous experience whether or not the friut was good.. But in their ignorance they chose the path of disobediance.
They could have chose any other tree and other fruit. But no the chose to take the one that God told them not to.
If your kid did not know the taste of either brocolli or the chocolate... then if you told your kid one is good one is bad... which one do you think he would choose?
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
uhm...But that's still freedom of choice...
God may of known man will sin. But he also knows the final outcome, after all the turmoil. It may take quite a while. But the end is glorious.
P.S. Adreal makes a good point.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
So Do I.. I think that the ten commandments are the basis for what everyone believes is morally right and wrong. This is why i think that Killing another person is wrong... no matter the circumstances.. I dont have, neither should anyone have the right for killing Anyone else. Death is a consequence of Sin. And I am not free of sin... So i will not be the one to cast judgment or through the first stone.. Only one man is free of sin.. And has that right to cast judgment.
I couldn't agree with you more.
After the ten commandments we're made Moses broke them after what he saw. I don't remember much what happened after that, I think he went back up and got another Ten Commandments. I think..
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
uhm...But that's still freedom of choice...
God may of known man will sin. But he also knows the final outcome, after all the turmoil. It may take quite a while. But the end is glorious.
P.S. Adreal makes a good point.
It's based on perspective then, I guess. To me, that is not a choice, but an illusion. If god exists, he already knows when I am going to die and whether I will accept him. So, in the end, I have no choice of the outcome. Imagine you could see into the future and see how you are going to die. You try doing what you can to make choices that will prevent your death, but in the end, you still die the way you have foreseen it. You had an illusion of choice. Religion is determinism.
As far as God having free will, no he does not. If God knows what he is to do in the future, and then he acts differently, he would then contradict himself, or his original view of what he was going to do in the future was incorrect, which then would make him imperfect.
And just to add, one philosophical ideal I found intriguing was the God Paradox. To sum it up, humans thought god into existence. It is difficult to give just a slight overview of it but here it goes:
God exists solely in the mind of mankind. He did not come into existence until the belief in him made it possible for him to exist. Because he was believed to be infinite, he became infinite. When God came into existence he created the universe and eventually man, who then in turn created him. If the belief in God ceases to exist, God will cease to exist and then man would cease to exist because man created God who created man.
Just thought you may find that interesting. It was in one of my philosophy books from college. Wish I still had it, but I needed the $$$.
It's based on perspective then, I guess... Imagine you could see into the future and see how you are going to die. You try doing what you can to make choices that will prevent your death, but in the end, you still die the way you have foreseen it.
I think I do see it from your perspective, and I hope you see it from mine as well. It is somewhat of a paradox, but people are still the ones that make a choice to determine an outcome. Toward the end of Minority Report, it pretty much addresses this paradox. It's a good movie. If you haven't seen it, then you should. The main character is shown the future he is involved in - killing a man - and yet tries to change the outcome, but the man still dies and by his weapon, but it is not what it had appeared to be - he does not kill the man but the man still dies.
If the belief in God ceases to exist, God will cease to exist and then man would cease to exist because man created God who created man.
I've also heard this sort of implication from movies and such, but I don't know how much weight it holds. It is an interesting idea to think about, but currently it doesn't make any logical sense to me unless there are some very strange laws of science that we have not yet found out (which is, of course, a possibility).
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
As far as God having free will, no he does not. If God knows what he is to do in the future, and then he acts differently, he would then contradict himself, or his original view of what he was going to do in the future was incorrect, which then would make him imperfect.
I think I've also thought and talked about the thing about a time machine (of course not here though). If time has measurement and it flows, then we can navigate it. If we can navigate it, then we can undo past actions, etc. Of course I don't think we completely understand the concept of time (or at least time travel) so it's hard to say what would happen.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
This place is full of tree-huggers and tofu fartn' faeries...
I know you did not think post thru! For one, the Bible didn't just have one author;
Many wrote the Bible. If you ever read the Bible you would have known that! Don't offend people with your stupidity and say such things you know nothing about.
And to say it has contradictions without proof of your claims is just conjecture.
For me its sort of hard. My family is christans on my moms side, and my Dad is Catholic, But im still not really sure about it myself. I like the idea of someone up there watching over me, but everything seems so unrealistic. I dont like the idea of basing my beliefs on something i am not sure about. For one there has never been any "signs" from God that i notice, or can even find if I look hard. The ideas of the scientists seems so much more realistic, and seems to explain more, instead of stuff sounding like a story. So basically, Do i believe in God? i dont know. Night all
im not sure if i believe because of a few reasons. first off if i cant see it i dont think i can believe it. and also if their is so such thing as "god" then how come he hasnt talked to us or anything like that. and also how do you know that the people that wrote the bible are crazy and making up stories just like an author would to a really good book? i have my doubts but i also have questions. how did we end up here and if there is a "god how did HE/SHE even come about? did he/she just come out of thin air? no, there has to be some logical explanation for this. and also there are so many frikin religions how do we know which one is right? also, i am always hearing people talking about how we evolved from monkey's or some crazy sh*t like that. if that's actually true then how come they still arent evolving and performing the process over and over again? all that i have to say about this is that if there is a god, how do we even know?
remember, a very wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon