Not sure why, at the very least in dungeon and PvE content where attention to detail is expected, we still have static mobs and only "random" layouts at best.
Very simple .. just do random dungeons with random mobs like D3 and other ARPGs. Heck, 5-man dungeons in MMOs are essentially the same gameplay with worse combat, and less variety.
It is easy to fix. If it can be done in Diablo, it can be done in a MMO dungeon.
Look at us, actually agreeing on something to do with MMOs. :P
I agree, it seems silly that this hasn't at least been tried. I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible for an MMO today.
Originally posted by Loktofeit The problem isn't questing but the current design of tiered, non-repeatable quests. The minute your preferred group starts to deviate in level range, the quest system works against playing together. A lot of games have introduced 'mentor' or scaling systems to compensate for it, but those are just bandaids to the persistent problem.
When you start off with "the problem isn't questing," I can pretty much ignore the rest. Questing is THE problem and reason why MMOs today have become so disposable; no meaningful social interaction takes place. Log in, talk to your NPC, do what they say. Rinse repeat ad nauseum.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Not sure why, at the very least in dungeon and PvE content where attention to detail is expected, we still have static mobs and only "random" layouts at best.
Very simple .. just do random dungeons with random mobs like D3 and other ARPGs. Heck, 5-man dungeons in MMOs are essentially the same gameplay with worse combat, and less variety.
It is easy to fix. If it can be done in Diablo, it can be done in a MMO dungeon.
Games don't seem to put much effort into interesting dungeons. They seem to put more effort into grass. Lots of open fields with lots of grass. I guess that's what people want though, grass and quests. Maybe I've just ran through too many boring fields and aggravatingly designed mountain ranges to see the importance of them.
I'm still waiting for a subterranean mmo with no gratuitous terrain and lots of dungeons.
Originally posted by MacShwangus Games don't seem to put much effort into interesting dungeons. They seem to put more effort into grass. Lots of open fields with lots of grass. I guess that's what people want though, grass and quests. Maybe I've just ran through too many boring fields and aggravatingly designed mountain ranges to see the importance of them.I'm still waiting for a subterranean mmo with no gratuitous terrain and lots of dungeons.
ROFL nice. I'm one of the few who don't like grass. I liked EQ1 way more when it didn't have grass. Now with all that long grass added, the game seems less real to me since I can't see much with all that grass in the way.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Not sure why, at the very least in dungeon and PvE content where attention to detail is expected, we still have static mobs and only "random" layouts at best.
Very simple .. just do random dungeons with random mobs like D3 and other ARPGs. Heck, 5-man dungeons in MMOs are essentially the same gameplay with worse combat, and less variety.
It is easy to fix. If it can be done in Diablo, it can be done in a MMO dungeon.
Games don't seem to put much effort into interesting dungeons. They seem to put more effort into grass. Lots of open fields with lots of grass. I guess that's what people want though, grass and quests. Maybe I've just ran through too many boring fields and aggravatingly designed mountain ranges to see the importance of them.
I'm still waiting for a subterranean mmo with no gratuitous terrain and lots of dungeons.
Metro-style MMO, with very sparse treks up to the surface and lots and lots and lots of underground tunnels and complexes to explore filled with mutated creatures waiting to rip your throat out????
Originally posted by MacShwangus Games don't seem to put much effort into interesting dungeons. They seem to put more effort into grass. Lots of open fields with lots of grass. I guess that's what people want though, grass and quests. Maybe I've just ran through too many boring fields and aggravatingly designed mountain ranges to see the importance of them.
I'm still waiting for a subterranean mmo with no gratuitous terrain and lots of dungeons.
ROFL nice. I'm one of the few who don't like grass. I liked EQ1 way more when it didn't have grass. Now with all that long grass added, the game seems less real to me since I can't see much with all that grass in the way.
EQ had grass, but it wasn't formed from polygons. It was just a texture on a big flat polygon that was the ground. I actually liked how a lot of things looked. WoW looks fairly similar in a lot of ways. There's a lot of blocky/flat polygons with textures. The world still looked quite good to me. I have gone back to EQ and WoW recently to try them out as free to play and I still like the art work in both. A lot of it also has to do with the setting and scenery though. I like the way gobilns, orcs, sand gaints, trolls, orgres, gnomes, dwarves, and more or less all races appeared in those games. The new games have smother and more detailed races, but they are also done in a completely different way then I prefer in most cases. It's one of those things that's hard to put your finger on, but there is a classical style of fantasy races and then there is the modern style like what you see in the lord of the rings movies. The classical style would be more like the hobbit cartoon IMO if you have ever seen it. It's a pretty old movie.
As for rats I think they have their place in games. When you are first starting out it's likely you are looking to make some money and get some type of lesser weapons and armor. Another thing I don't like about games today. Most melee classes will get heavy/plate/chain armor right away. This is expensive armor and should take time to aquire IMO. All classes should have to start with finding ways to earn money and buying some very simple armor and weapons from a merchant.
Not sure why, at the very least in dungeon and PvE content where attention to detail is expected, we still have static mobs and only "random" layouts at best.
Very simple .. just do random dungeons with random mobs like D3 and other ARPGs. Heck, 5-man dungeons in MMOs are essentially the same gameplay with worse combat, and less variety.
It is easy to fix. If it can be done in Diablo, it can be done in a MMO dungeon.
Look at us, actually agreeing on something to do with MMOs. :P
I agree, it seems silly that this hasn't at least been tried. I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible for an MMO today.
The good news is that you don't actually need a MMO to get this kind of gameplay. You can always just play a ARPG.
BTW, there *is* a MMO with this ... Marvel Heroes (although it is not as polished, and done these things as nicely as D3, or Incredible Adv of Van Helsing).
Not sure why, at the very least in dungeon and PvE content where attention to detail is expected, we still have static mobs and only "random" layouts at best.
Very simple .. just do random dungeons with random mobs like D3 and other ARPGs. Heck, 5-man dungeons in MMOs are essentially the same gameplay with worse combat, and less variety.
It is easy to fix. If it can be done in Diablo, it can be done in a MMO dungeon.
Look at us, actually agreeing on something to do with MMOs. :P
I agree, it seems silly that this hasn't at least been tried. I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible for an MMO today.
The good news is that you don't actually need a MMO to get this kind of gameplay. You can always just play a ARPG.
BTW, there *is* a MMO with this ... Marvel Heroes (although it is not as polished, and done these things as nicely as D3, or Incredible Adv of Van Helsing).
I've been debating D3, though the only time I could ever really get into D2 was when I had a few buddies that played. It's a conundrum for me due to the fact that I love the 3rd person over the shoulder view, and I dislike isometric. I love the sort of dynamic content of those isometric-view dungeon crawlers generally provide, and I dislike the static environments of MMOs.
The thing I don't understand is, the majority of "Themepark" MMOs still give you xp per kill, so then why not just ignore the quests and grind mobs if that is what you want to do? I don't understand being offended by the quests being an ignorable option.
I've been debating D3, though the only time I could ever really get into D2 was when I had a few buddies that played. It's a conundrum for me due to the fact that I love the 3rd person over the shoulder view, and I dislike isometric. I love the sort of dynamic content of those isometric-view dungeon crawlers generally provide, and I dislike the static environments of MMOs.
Might give D3 a shot.
I see .. most random dungeon type ARPGs are isometric. So you really have to decide if you can like that (personally i like isometric more .. but it is a personal choice).
Aside from D3, Incredible Adv of Van Helsing is also a good game .... with nice polish (though VH is a indie game) and a steampunk setting with character.
Originally posted by Dauntis The thing I don't understand is, the majority of "Themepark" MMOs still give you xp per kill, so then why not just ignore the quests and grind mobs if that is what you want to do? I don't understand being offended by the quests being an ignorable option.
Because it is usually so miniscule that its better off to just bite the bullet and do teh quest.......I remember in LoTRO when I killed a troll while running a quest and got 80XP for the kill,,,The quest, which was just a errand runner, gave like 20k for running a short distance......Also had another time when I got a phone call i nthe middle of a quest, so I decided to jsut kill stuff while on the phone....I got off the phone over an hour later and had gained 1% XP....I'e always felt mob kills should be substantially higher
Originally posted by Dauntis The thing I don't understand is, the majority of "Themepark" MMOs still give you xp per kill, so then why not just ignore the quests and grind mobs if that is what you want to do? I don't understand being offended by the quests being an ignorable option.
I think what most people "want to do" is progress through the game. Grinding and questing are the means of doing it. Some people prefer one to the other.
The problem is they aren't equal. It's like bringing your bicycle to compete in the Indy 500. Though in a new mmo you're forced to ride a tricycle...and two of the wheels have fallen off...and the seat is missing.
Originally posted by Loktofeit The problem isn't questing but the current design of tiered, non-repeatable quests. The minute your preferred group starts to deviate in level range, the quest system works against playing together. A lot of games have introduced 'mentor' or scaling systems to compensate for it, but those are just bandaids to the persistent problem.
When you start off with "the problem isn't questing," I can pretty much ignore the rest. Questing is THE problem and reason why MMOs today have become so disposable; no meaningful social interaction takes place. Log in, talk to your NPC, do what they say. Rinse repeat ad nauseum.
Well, now there's an open-minded reply.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Dauntis The thing I don't understand is, the majority of "Themepark" MMOs still give you xp per kill, so then why not just ignore the quests and grind mobs if that is what you want to do? I don't understand being offended by the quests being an ignorable option.
Nowadays MMORPG level progression as you to do certain number of quests each level to level up.
But there are case you can't do some of major (main storyline) quests which reward very large EXP because lack of group of player same level which you
Yes , forced group active lol .
So the "little" EXP per kill will fill the empty spot of EXP bar for your.
In this case it act as backup plan
But most case the designer add "little exp" to mobs to stop player stay at certain level and grind item.
If you noticed , they use the system that if you over level monster , the drop rate will reduced.
So basically , they add those exp to force players to level up and not camp at certain level.
Originally posted by Quizzical Most people don't like highly repetitive grinding of the same mobs for hours on end. A game built around this won't have very many players. That's why most games don't try it anymore.
Take Diablo 3 as an exemple. Sure, isn't not a MMO , but the point is that people like staying in a spot/area and just...start killing mobs for loot, exp, etc.
Also, Lineage 2 , from my point of view, had the best mobs grinding ever. The combat just fits perfectly, to stand and kills mob over and over again. You could do this solo, or party. Of course, party xp was better then solo, plus, they had zones where mobs had x2-x6 HP , specially for party grind. Man, how I miss Lineage 2. How I miss making party with 4 other friends, and then go for mats , recipes, enchants + exp. Damn! NcSoft, don't you fucking think about making Lineage 3 some instanced game or leveling up by quests. Lineage = Mobs fucking grinding.
I would rather sit for hours killing enemies while talking to friends also doing the same than CONSTANTLY run back and forth between NPCs doing their shitty jobs.
I agree with you on this 100%. Pick up quest...run around kill mobs...run back to npc. Do the next in the chain. Mind numbing is an understatement. I will take picking a nice spot to camp with friends or people running through the zone or better yet a good old fashion dungeon crawl. Imo thats something EQ and EQ2 really did well. For me dungeons in other games have never even come close.
Agree with the op. Hoping the Quest Hub dies a horrible death; and that any games that implement it as a primary mechanic flop. I got sick of being told what to do after one month of Vanguard. Is the internet so full of simpletons that they don't mind being told what to do for this many years ??? Quest hubs create a game where the primary social interaction is player to NPC, rather than player to player. Even if that interaction is hailing the NPC and clicking-through the quest without even reading it; which I'm sure most players do.
I always get a kick out of people complaining about socialization who go on to say this kind of stuff^. Because when I think of people I want to socialize with, this is the first type of person who comes to mind. Who doesn't love the guy who thinks so low of people of differing taste..
As for the topic of the OP.. I'd much rather move to better forms of cross player interaction and better forms of advancement than simple mob grinding, it was mind numbing at times back in 02-03 for me... Questing focus did change the dynamics of MMORPG designs, but I don't think they're any worse than what was there before in that regard. Either way it becomes systematic.
I don't view that as positive socialization, I also don't see most players treating it any different than pugging in this day and age. A means to an end. You need more playstyles as well as a different mindset as a whole to achieve that, with real community roles. Want to see positive socialization? Look no farther than a pre-cu SWG cantina. That's true socialization, being forced into a group is something else entirely.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
IT just goes to show there is no pleasing everybody ,before SWTOR and ESO came out the forums were full of complaints about grinding mobs .give me an mmo where i dont have to kill 10 rats 10 boars etc etc ,also people complaining that an mmo wont last more than 3 months so the devs respond by cutting down xp on mobs and trying to add more content in quests to keep us engaged ,now its going the other way give me the grind i dont want quests.Im all for people playing what they want to play but seriously there are enough mmos out their pick the one you like and stick with it .On a side note to many people are obsessed with leveling as fast as possible maybe just should chill a little spend a day in ESO if thats your game just exploring or gathering ,crafting etc ignore the quests there still be their tommorrow .
Originally posted by Loktofeit The problem isn't questing but the current design of tiered, non-repeatable quests. The minute your preferred group starts to deviate in level range, the quest system works against playing together. A lot of games have introduced 'mentor' or scaling systems to compensate for it, but those are just bandaids to the persistent problem.
When you start off with "the problem isn't questing," I can pretty much ignore the rest. Questing is THE problem and reason why MMOs today have become so disposable; no meaningful social interaction takes place. Log in, talk to your NPC, do what they say. Rinse repeat ad nauseum.
Well, now there's an open-minded reply.
I think you guys could instead be discussing quest inflation and ways to tie various forms of progress together without temporarily sacrificing multiplayer aspects of mmorpg's. But then again, it's nice to roll eyes at each other too:)
I'd love to see something along the lines of the sword art onlines depiction of it, killing mobs and making connections drove the entire game while still having a purpose and background.
Easier mobs were more abundant than the difficult, and each floor got significantly harder which kept mob killing exciting and obviously kept them on their toes because of how severe the death penalty was in that show lol.
Most of this was due to limited mob spawning though. Keeps competition everywhere and removed zerging of open world content.
Comments
Look at us, actually agreeing on something to do with MMOs. :P
I agree, it seems silly that this hasn't at least been tried. I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible for an MMO today.
When you start off with "the problem isn't questing," I can pretty much ignore the rest. Questing is THE problem and reason why MMOs today have become so disposable; no meaningful social interaction takes place. Log in, talk to your NPC, do what they say. Rinse repeat ad nauseum.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Games don't seem to put much effort into interesting dungeons. They seem to put more effort into grass. Lots of open fields with lots of grass. I guess that's what people want though, grass and quests. Maybe I've just ran through too many boring fields and aggravatingly designed mountain ranges to see the importance of them.
I'm still waiting for a subterranean mmo with no gratuitous terrain and lots of dungeons.
ROFL nice. I'm one of the few who don't like grass. I liked EQ1 way more when it didn't have grass. Now with all that long grass added, the game seems less real to me since I can't see much with all that grass in the way.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Metro-style MMO, with very sparse treks up to the surface and lots and lots and lots of underground tunnels and complexes to explore filled with mutated creatures waiting to rip your throat out????
Yes, please.
EQ had grass, but it wasn't formed from polygons. It was just a texture on a big flat polygon that was the ground. I actually liked how a lot of things looked. WoW looks fairly similar in a lot of ways. There's a lot of blocky/flat polygons with textures. The world still looked quite good to me. I have gone back to EQ and WoW recently to try them out as free to play and I still like the art work in both. A lot of it also has to do with the setting and scenery though. I like the way gobilns, orcs, sand gaints, trolls, orgres, gnomes, dwarves, and more or less all races appeared in those games. The new games have smother and more detailed races, but they are also done in a completely different way then I prefer in most cases. It's one of those things that's hard to put your finger on, but there is a classical style of fantasy races and then there is the modern style like what you see in the lord of the rings movies. The classical style would be more like the hobbit cartoon IMO if you have ever seen it. It's a pretty old movie.
As for rats I think they have their place in games. When you are first starting out it's likely you are looking to make some money and get some type of lesser weapons and armor. Another thing I don't like about games today. Most melee classes will get heavy/plate/chain armor right away. This is expensive armor and should take time to aquire IMO. All classes should have to start with finding ways to earn money and buying some very simple armor and weapons from a merchant.
The good news is that you don't actually need a MMO to get this kind of gameplay. You can always just play a ARPG.
BTW, there *is* a MMO with this ... Marvel Heroes (although it is not as polished, and done these things as nicely as D3, or Incredible Adv of Van Helsing).
I've been debating D3, though the only time I could ever really get into D2 was when I had a few buddies that played. It's a conundrum for me due to the fact that I love the 3rd person over the shoulder view, and I dislike isometric. I love the sort of dynamic content of those isometric-view dungeon crawlers generally provide, and I dislike the static environments of MMOs.
Might give D3 a shot.
Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk
I see .. most random dungeon type ARPGs are isometric. So you really have to decide if you can like that (personally i like isometric more .. but it is a personal choice).
Aside from D3, Incredible Adv of Van Helsing is also a good game .... with nice polish (though VH is a indie game) and a steampunk setting with character.
Because it is usually so miniscule that its better off to just bite the bullet and do teh quest.......I remember in LoTRO when I killed a troll while running a quest and got 80XP for the kill,,,The quest, which was just a errand runner, gave like 20k for running a short distance......Also had another time when I got a phone call i nthe middle of a quest, so I decided to jsut kill stuff while on the phone....I got off the phone over an hour later and had gained 1% XP....I'e always felt mob kills should be substantially higher
I think what most people "want to do" is progress through the game. Grinding and questing are the means of doing it. Some people prefer one to the other.
The problem is they aren't equal. It's like bringing your bicycle to compete in the Indy 500. Though in a new mmo you're forced to ride a tricycle...and two of the wheels have fallen off...and the seat is missing.
Well, now there's an open-minded reply.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nowadays MMORPG level progression as you to do certain number of quests each level to level up.
But there are case you can't do some of major (main storyline) quests which reward very large EXP because lack of group of player same level which you
Yes , forced group active lol .
So the "little" EXP per kill will fill the empty spot of EXP bar for your.
In this case it act as backup plan
But most case the designer add "little exp" to mobs to stop player stay at certain level and grind item.
If you noticed , they use the system that if you over level monster , the drop rate will reduced.
So basically , they add those exp to force players to level up and not camp at certain level.
Cheap trick.
Take Diablo 3 as an exemple. Sure, isn't not a MMO , but the point is that people like staying in a spot/area and just...start killing mobs for loot, exp, etc.
Also, Lineage 2 , from my point of view, had the best mobs grinding ever. The combat just fits perfectly, to stand and kills mob over and over again. You could do this solo, or party. Of course, party xp was better then solo, plus, they had zones where mobs had x2-x6 HP , specially for party grind. Man, how I miss Lineage 2. How I miss making party with 4 other friends, and then go for mats , recipes, enchants + exp. Damn! NcSoft, don't you fucking think about making Lineage 3 some instanced game or leveling up by quests. Lineage = Mobs fucking grinding.
I agree with you on this 100%. Pick up quest...run around kill mobs...run back to npc. Do the next in the chain. Mind numbing is an understatement. I will take picking a nice spot to camp with friends or people running through the zone or better yet a good old fashion dungeon crawl. Imo thats something EQ and EQ2 really did well. For me dungeons in other games have never even come close.
I agree OP, but bots and hackers ruin that idea for everybody.
Look to TESO, bots infested the SP dungeons in the hope of getting loot and gold for killing the same boss every minute.
Such a shame because most players would love some unexpected epic weapon dropping off a random mob.
I always get a kick out of people complaining about socialization who go on to say this kind of stuff^. Because when I think of people I want to socialize with, this is the first type of person who comes to mind. Who doesn't love the guy who thinks so low of people of differing taste..
As for the topic of the OP.. I'd much rather move to better forms of cross player interaction and better forms of advancement than simple mob grinding, it was mind numbing at times back in 02-03 for me... Questing focus did change the dynamics of MMORPG designs, but I don't think they're any worse than what was there before in that regard. Either way it becomes systematic.
I don't view that as positive socialization, I also don't see most players treating it any different than pugging in this day and age. A means to an end. You need more playstyles as well as a different mindset as a whole to achieve that, with real community roles. Want to see positive socialization? Look no farther than a pre-cu SWG cantina. That's true socialization, being forced into a group is something else entirely.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Then again , the question is why they can bots.
We know that they can bot because the game are build so they can bot.
IMO , it easier to bot in quest hubs game because the mobs are designed to solo able.
It just the leveling speed are too fast so people don't bore to EXP bot in quest hubs game.
But as you can see when quests hub game ask player to grind "something else" aside from EXP , ta da ! bots appear .
And when the bot appears , it even worst than mob grind game.
As you see the newest example ESO , you can wipe the bots , but the items don't disappear .
And sometime by mistake , you ban the normal players that will lead to lost customers .
If about anti bots , quest hubs not good .
I'd love to see something along the lines of the sword art onlines depiction of it, killing mobs and making connections drove the entire game while still having a purpose and background.
Easier mobs were more abundant than the difficult, and each floor got significantly harder which kept mob killing exciting and obviously kept them on their toes because of how severe the death penalty was in that show lol.
Most of this was due to limited mob spawning though. Keeps competition everywhere and removed zerging of open world content.
Played-Everything
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