We know that they can bot because the game are build so they can bot.
IMO , it easier to bot in quest hubs game because the mobs are designed to solo able.
It just the leveling speed are too fast so people don't bore to EXP bot in quest hubs game.
But as you can see when quests hub game ask player to grind "something else" aside from EXP , ta da ! bots appear .
And when the bot appears , it even worst than mob grind game.
As you see the newest example ESO , you can wipe the bots , but the items don't disappear .
And sometime by mistake , you ban the normal players that will lead to lost customers .
If about anti bots , quest hubs not good .
You might be surprised at how many bots are in 'mob grinding' games. The number of bots isn't a function of the game, but a function of the people who want progression without actually sitting there participating in the progression, or a function of the people who want to grind gold for real world money. Bots are very capable of coordinating efforts as a group. 'Mob Grinding' as an activity isn't going to be a preventative measure against bots.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Quizzical Most people don't like highly repetitive grinding of the same mobs for hours on end. A game built around this won't have very many players. That's why most games don't try it anymore.
Take Diablo 3 as an exemple. Sure, isn't not a MMO , but the point is that people like staying in a spot/area and just...start killing mobs for loot, exp, etc.
Also, Lineage 2 , from my point of view, had the best mobs grinding ever. The combat just fits perfectly, to stand and kills mob over and over again. You could do this solo, or party. Of course, party xp was better then solo, plus, they had zones where mobs had x2-x6 HP , specially for party grind. Man, how I miss Lineage 2. How I miss making party with 4 other friends, and then go for mats , recipes, enchants + exp. Damn! NcSoft, don't you fucking think about making Lineage 3 some instanced game or leveling up by quests. Lineage = Mobs fucking grinding.
The same people who are more than happy to just grind mobs for hours in Diablo 3 wouldn't have touched WoW if it worked the same way. Why? I have no idea. Maybe it's just that one game has a persistent world and the other one doesn't. Quizzical is right in that mob grinding as an activity in MMORPGs is secondary to questing. I would be interesting in knowing why this is the case though, when the same people who want that quest design in MMORPGs are happy with mob grinding in other types of games.
**
And those same people are happy to spend hours "grinding" ore in Minecraft. *shrug*
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Loktofeit The problem isn't questing but the current design of tiered, non-repeatable quests. The minute your preferred group starts to deviate in level range, the quest system works against playing together. A lot of games have introduced 'mentor' or scaling systems to compensate for it, but those are just bandaids to the persistent problem.
When you start off with "the problem isn't questing," I can pretty much ignore the rest. Questing is THE problem and reason why MMOs today have become so disposable; no meaningful social interaction takes place. Log in, talk to your NPC, do what they say. Rinse repeat ad nauseum.
Well, now there's an open-minded reply.
I think you guys could instead be discussing quest inflation and ways to tie various forms of progress together without temporarily sacrificing multiplayer aspects of mmorpg's. But then again, it's nice to roll eyes at each other too:)
I would have loved to have gotten there, phumbaba.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Quizzical Most people don't like highly repetitive grinding of the same mobs for hours on end. A game built around this won't have very many players. That's why most games don't try it anymore.
Take Diablo 3 as an exemple. Sure, isn't not a MMO , but the point is that people like staying in a spot/area and just...start killing mobs for loot, exp, etc.
Also, Lineage 2 , from my point of view, had the best mobs grinding ever. The combat just fits perfectly, to stand and kills mob over and over again. You could do this solo, or party. Of course, party xp was better then solo, plus, they had zones where mobs had x2-x6 HP , specially for party grind. Man, how I miss Lineage 2. How I miss making party with 4 other friends, and then go for mats , recipes, enchants + exp. Damn! NcSoft, don't you fucking think about making Lineage 3 some instanced game or leveling up by quests. Lineage = Mobs fucking grinding.
The same people who are more than happy to just grind mobs for hours in Diablo 3 wouldn't have touched WoW if it worked the same way. Why? I have no idea. Maybe it's just that one game has a persistent world and the other one doesn't. Quizzical is right in that mob grinding as an activity in MMORPGs is secondary to questing. I would be interesting in knowing why this is the case though, when the same people who want that quest design in MMORPGs are happy with mob grinding in other types of games.
**
And those same people are happy to spend hours "grinding" ore in Minecraft. *shrug*
It's true, that this kind of grind wouldn't work out with WoW for exemple, because the game was not made for such .. activity. You need to take into consideration some things if you want to add mob grinding. You cannot take WoW with the vanilla features or what is it today and make it mob grinding to be the main xp source
From my experience, mob grinding works best with Diablo style MMO's like : Lineage 1-2 , Mu Online and even Runescape . There are more, I am sure, but you got the point. Also Aion, does a pretty good job with mobs grinding.
Anyway , I would rather have .. quests which tells you to : Kill 700 mobs or Kill 200 of X mobs, 100 of Y mobs, 400 of Z mobs + complete 3 raid bosses in order to receive ... I don't know .. something O.K
Because I am telling you, I am kinda boring completing the usual : Kill 10 skeletons then come back to tell you to kill 12 rats. But please, after this, go to High Priest of Azuracias because he will want to kill 10 skeletons and after that, go back and take 15 bones from the same skeletons, to give to his brother which is near him.
I just wish either option was available. I miss the days in Asheron's Call wielding my acid sword and standing with my ass in a corner killing wave after endless wave of Olthoi in their hives. I would have liked to have more questing in the game though, for the days I didn't feel like grinding endless waves of mobs.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Well, now there's an open-minded reply.
Originally posted by Loktofeit I would have loved to have gotten there, phumbaba.
We did get there. You stated your position, and I let you know how wrong that position was. Hence a constructive discussion. Win-win. To reiterate and rephrase, Quest Hubs have killed the social aspect of online gaming.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
To reiterate and rephrase, Quest Hubs have killed the social aspect of online gaming.
And apparently, not that many people would care. In fact, there are plenty of other types of online games with no quests hub but little socializing.
I would argue that socializing is not that popular anyway. It is not a big problem. Plus, you can always go to chat in almost any online game. It is right there. If few others use it, it is not the problem of the game.
We did get there. You stated your position, and I let you know how wrong that position was. Hence a constructive discussion. Win-win. To reiterate and rephrase, Quest Hubs have killed the social aspect of online gaming.
You're not re-iterating. You're stating something completely different... or are you suggesting quest hubs are the only way that quests can be made?
Is it your stance that the level-tiered, non-repeatable state of today's quests do not contribute to the problem? If so, could you share why you feel that isn't a factor in the break down of the social aspect of MMOs?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit You're not re-iterating. You're stating something completely different
Pretty sure my second post, below, would be considered as reitterating the first.
Originally posted by Arclan ...Questing is THE problem and reason why MMOs today have become so disposable; no meaningful social interaction takes place...
Originally posted by Arclan ...To reiterate and rephrase, Quest Hubs have killed the social aspect of online gaming.
Lok, If you want to find some common ground, misstatements are not a good place to start. For the record, I do look favorably upon you and your posts, even if you come across as inflamatory at times. Not assuming you care, but I wanted to mention it.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Is it your stance that the level-tiered, non-repeatable state of today's quests do not contribute to the problem? If so, could you share why you feel that isn't a factor in the break down of the social aspect of MMOs?
Level-tiered quests are absolutely the problem. Otherwise known as "quest hubs." Players of a certain level arrive at the hub and do all the quests before moving to the next hub.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Level-tiered quests are absolutely the problem. Otherwise known as "quest hubs." Players of a certain level arrive at the hub and do all the quests before moving to the next hub.
So we agree. I had a feeling that was the case, despite your initial reply. The impression I got from your replies (rather inflammatory ones at that, if you really want to bounce that ball around the court) seemed to state that it was questing as a whole is THE problem and reason why MMOs today have become so disposable, with no meaningful social interaction taking place. Thank you for clarifying.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Used to be a man could find himself an overpowered weapon and a field of rats, and just start goin to town.
Now you have to speak with the captain at the barricade to help fight back the invading orcs.
Who then tells you to seek out the commander at the outpost.
Who asks you to help deal with the encroaching undead population.
But don't forget to talk to the general in the guard tower about collecting a bag of undead-orc anuses first.
Whatever happened to the simplicity of bashing in rat skulls for hours at a time. I'd personally rather level through a test of rat bashing endurance than be some lacky for a quest spewing army of tedium.
People got bored of it...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I've been playing both WoW and Diablo 3 a bit lately just to try them out again.
Diablo 3 is non stop killing. It personally wears me down a lot faster then playing WoW. You never take any time to rest or enjoy the game. It's always go go go. EQ had a lot of grinding, but down time forced you to take breaks and allowed your mind to rest a bit. I find I start to develop a headache after playing Diablo 3 for more than an hour or two due to the non stop action in the game.
I was actually having a lot of fun playing WoW despite the quests. There was a lot of times where I was just running from one point to another. The pace of combat is much slower allowing your mind to rest a bit more. I'd say for me the experience was a lot more fun despite the quests. It was more a matter of the pace of things and having limited options in terms of traveling around that turns me off from Diablo 3 a bit. I don't see Diablo 3 as a game to relax and enjoy yourself.
Having played both games I still want to see the option to grind mobs become more viable, but I am starting to realize games with that are non stop action are not really for me or that I can't play them for very long without taking some breaks. This is also what makes grouping/raiding/pvp difficult in MMOs IMO. Your group usually wants to keep killing non stop until the goal is met with no rest time in between fights for your brain to recover. Even the simplest of tasks will take a toll on you if you do it with no breaks over a long period of time.
Used to be a man could find himself an overpowered weapon and a field of rats, and just start goin to town.
Now you have to speak with the captain at the barricade to help fight back the invading orcs.
Who then tells you to seek out the commander at the outpost.
Who asks you to help deal with the encroaching undead population.
But don't forget to talk to the general in the guard tower about collecting a bag of undead-orc anuses first.
Whatever happened to the simplicity of bashing in rat skulls for hours at a time. I'd personally rather level through a test of rat bashing endurance than be some lacky for a quest spewing army of tedium.
undead-orc anuses. LOL!!!
And yes I agree. I rather explore and kill mobs rather than doing single player quests.
Diablo 3 is non stop killing. It personally wears me down a lot faster then playing WoW. You never take any time to rest or enjoy the game.
uh? You need to "rest" to enjoy the game?
non-stop killing *is* the enjoyment (aside from tweaking builds/gear .. so you can non-stop killing even more efficiently).
I suppose you enjoy stuff very differently than most players. I have never seen anyone complaining (except you) that it is too fast. And of course people who are too slow (like stay in town forever) got kicked.
I am glad i can play a game like D3 with no down-time. Going back to WoW seems like everything is at a snail pace.
Diablo 3 is non stop killing. It personally wears me down a lot faster then playing WoW. You never take any time to rest or enjoy the game.
uh? You need to "rest" to enjoy the game?
non-stop killing *is* the enjoyment (aside from tweaking builds/gear .. so you can non-stop killing even more efficiently).
I suppose you enjoy stuff very differently than most players. I have never seen anyone complaining (except you) that it is too fast. And of course people who are too slow (like stay in town forever) got kicked.
I am glad i can play a game like D3 with no down-time. Going back to WoW seems like everything is at a snail pace.
I believe it's similar to people who multitask generally not doing as good a of a job at what they are doing because their brain is constantly tied up without getting any breaks. There is also the research that says people today are to busy and it's taking away their creativity since they don't have to amuse themselves. Basically it's good to have periods of inactivity in game. I also notice Diablo 3 is hard on the hands. You play it for a few hours and your hand starts to hurt from all the clicking to move around and attack with the mouse. In WoW it is slow enough a pace you can enjoy the quests, scenery, adventure, a bit. I'm not sure what is enjoyable about non stop killing/action. I find it tedious and also bad for you in many ways.
Diablo 3 is non stop killing. It personally wears me down a lot faster then playing WoW. You never take any time to rest or enjoy the game.
uh? You need to "rest" to enjoy the game?
non-stop killing *is* the enjoyment (aside from tweaking builds/gear .. so you can non-stop killing even more efficiently).
I suppose you enjoy stuff very differently than most players. I have never seen anyone complaining (except you) that it is too fast. And of course people who are too slow (like stay in town forever) got kicked.
I am glad i can play a game like D3 with no down-time. Going back to WoW seems like everything is at a snail pace.
I believe it's similar to people who multitask generally not doing as good a of a job at what they are doing because their brain is constantly tied up without getting any breaks. There is also the research that says people today are to busy and it's taking away their creativity since they don't have to amuse themselves. Basically it's good to have periods of inactivity in game. I also notice Diablo 3 is hard on the hands. You play it for a few hours and your hand starts to hurt from all the clicking to move around and attack with the mouse. In WoW it is slow enough a pace you can enjoy the quests, scenery, adventure, a bit. I'm not sure what is enjoyable about non stop killing/action. I find it tedious and also bad for you in many ways.
Who says playing it for hours? You can rest after every rift which takes no more than 20-30 min even for the slow in-efficient players.
And what multitask? Everyone is focus on combat .. and what does "doing as good a job" has to do with anything? We are talking about whether playing D3 is fun. It is not a job. It is not a test. It is just a fun game to enjoy while wasting time.
And creativity? really ... in playing a combat dungeon game?
Why do a hack-n-slash game needs to "slow down" in a 20 min play session? You can rest as much as you want after each section .. and from what i have seen, no one is interested in slowly down to talk or anything. Just kill till you are satisfied, quit the group and do other stuff (like try build/gear) to just quit the game.
Diablo 3 is non stop killing. It personally wears me down a lot faster then playing WoW. You never take any time to rest or enjoy the game.
uh? You need to "rest" to enjoy the game?
non-stop killing *is* the enjoyment (aside from tweaking builds/gear .. so you can non-stop killing even more efficiently).
I suppose you enjoy stuff very differently than most players. I have never seen anyone complaining (except you) that it is too fast. And of course people who are too slow (like stay in town forever) got kicked.
I am glad i can play a game like D3 with no down-time. Going back to WoW seems like everything is at a snail pace.
Most games, in the most general of sense, build in rest periods or are slowly enough paced that the mind does not have to struggle to constantly keep up (if they require higher than usual mental effort).
And remember your sample is biased. You cite the fact that almost everyone who bought D3 enjoys non-stop killing. Well, that was kinda the point of the Diablo series. So of course people who are attracted to that will be the majority of folks who buy that game..
I think what he's getting at is something I actually experience in WoW, oddly enough. LFD seemed to be the fastest way to level for me, so that's what I was doing most of the time. It was mind-numbing and exhausting. The groups never needed downtime, so it was all run run kill kill run run kill kill. Nonstop. No talking. No downtime. I couldn't play more than a few before I was zoned out and just mindlessly mashing the same few buttons.
I've never been a fan of quests, I just can't be bothered to read them. Maybe if they were part of a larger story and if they were written by incredibly talented writes. But I refuse to do the "fetch me 10 hides" quests, and I still see these in MMO.
I want to just play and quests aren't gameplay for me, they are just things to click through.
The enjoyment comes from the fact you are together in a massive world, not from some static NPC who is asking you to kill a few wolves, get your own please.
Diablo 3 is non stop killing. It personally wears me down a lot faster then playing WoW. You never take any time to rest or enjoy the game.
uh? You need to "rest" to enjoy the game?
non-stop killing *is* the enjoyment (aside from tweaking builds/gear .. so you can non-stop killing even more efficiently).
I suppose you enjoy stuff very differently than most players. I have never seen anyone complaining (except you) that it is too fast. And of course people who are too slow (like stay in town forever) got kicked.
I am glad i can play a game like D3 with no down-time. Going back to WoW seems like everything is at a snail pace.
Most games, in the most general of sense, build in rest periods or are slowly enough paced that the mind does not have to struggle to constantly keep up (if they require higher than usual mental effort).
And remember your sample is biased. You cite the fact that almost everyone who bought D3 enjoys non-stop killing. Well, that was kinda the point of the Diablo series. So of course people who are attracted to that will be the majority of folks who buy that game..
I think what he's getting at is something I actually experience in WoW, oddly enough. LFD seemed to be the fastest way to level for me, so that's what I was doing most of the time. It was mind-numbing and exhausting. The groups never needed downtime, so it was all run run kill kill run run kill kill. Nonstop. No talking. No downtime. I couldn't play more than a few before I was zoned out and just mindlessly mashing the same few buttons.
I guess if that is the way you are leveling, but you don't have to do that in WoW. You can take your time and go slow (enjoy the game). Grouping is optional. Small groups is can be done when you want if you want to play like that, but even then there is generally some time to rest.
Diablo 3 is non stop killing. It personally wears me down a lot faster then playing WoW. You never take any time to rest or enjoy the game.
uh? You need to "rest" to enjoy the game?
non-stop killing *is* the enjoyment (aside from tweaking builds/gear .. so you can non-stop killing even more efficiently).
I suppose you enjoy stuff very differently than most players. I have never seen anyone complaining (except you) that it is too fast. And of course people who are too slow (like stay in town forever) got kicked.
I am glad i can play a game like D3 with no down-time. Going back to WoW seems like everything is at a snail pace.
I believe it's similar to people who multitask generally not doing as good a of a job at what they are doing because their brain is constantly tied up without getting any breaks. There is also the research that says people today are to busy and it's taking away their creativity since they don't have to amuse themselves. Basically it's good to have periods of inactivity in game. I also notice Diablo 3 is hard on the hands. You play it for a few hours and your hand starts to hurt from all the clicking to move around and attack with the mouse. In WoW it is slow enough a pace you can enjoy the quests, scenery, adventure, a bit. I'm not sure what is enjoyable about non stop killing/action. I find it tedious and also bad for you in many ways.
Who says playing it for hours? You can rest after every rift which takes no more than 20-30 min even for the slow in-efficient players.
And what multitask? Everyone is focus on combat .. and what does "doing as good a job" has to do with anything? We are talking about whether playing D3 is fun. It is not a job. It is not a test. It is just a fun game to enjoy while wasting time.
And creativity? really ... in playing a combat dungeon game?
Why do a hack-n-slash game needs to "slow down" in a 20 min play session? You can rest as much as you want after each section .. and from what i have seen, no one is interested in slowly down to talk or anything. Just kill till you are satisfied, quit the group and do other stuff (like try build/gear) to just quit the game.
I don't think I could get into the game just playing for 20 minutes at a time. I've always had that issue with games. When I play them I usually play them at least a 1 hour, but many times 2 or 3. 20 minutes doesn't seem enough time to get into the a game.
I'm not sure where the "doing a good job" part came from. Diablo 3 feels like a job to me though. You are basically repeating the same thing over and over again with no rest. In WoW you are repeating the same thing over and over again, but at least the quest and traveling around breaks it up a bit.
The 3rd/1st person wasd movement also is a lot easier on the hands.
Intelligent mob grinding AI... you kill a rat, get 10 XP... you kill another rat, you get 6 XP... another rat 2XP... another 0 XP. Keep killing rats, get 0 XP. You kill a bunny, get 10 XP... you kill another bunny, you get 6 XP... another bunny 2 XP... another 0 XP. Keep killing bunnies, get 0 XP. This repeats itself until you've killed every type of NPC in game until 24 hours has expired from the time you killed the last NPC rewarding 0 XP.
This prevents you from farming mobs endlessly for XP. You will have to move on to new mobs to kill continuously until you've either run out of NPC types or are no longer within level range to do damage to them. You can still gain quest XP for completing quests but you will not gain additional mob XP for killing a particular mob if you have zeroed out your XP for that NPC type.
Intelligent mob grinding AI... you kill a rat, get 10 XP... you kill another rat, you get 6 XP... another rat 2XP... another 0 XP. Keep killing rats, get 0 XP. You kill a bunny, get 10 XP... you kill another bunny, you get 6 XP... another bunny 2 XP... another 0 XP. Keep killing bunnies, get 0 XP. This repeats itself until you've killed every type of NPC in game until 24 hours has expired from the time you killed the last NPC rewarding 0 XP.
This prevents you from farming mobs endlessly for XP. You will have to move on to new mobs to kill continuously until you've either run out of NPC types or are no longer within level range to do damage to them. You can still gain quest XP for completing quests but you will not gain additional mob XP for killing a particular mob if you have zeroed out your XP for that NPC type.
I would really dislike such a system. Part of community building is actually static grinding, when you constantly move you have no time to socialise. This is very apparent in action based MMO that have no social fabric.
I'm surprised that there are so many replies agreeing with the OP. Do you all not realize that there are still mobs out in the wilds of the game that you can go grind for xp? I do that sometimes, if I don't want to quest, I go kill mobs. It's about choice. Choices all players have. Most games don't force you to quest, players do it because its easier. But again, that's their choice. They're given an option, and yet what do they do? Head to do the main thing they complain about in this thread.
"Wah, these WoW clones are just turning everything into easy mode for the entitled casuals. We want hard mode like original EQ" are complaints I commonly hear. And yet, these same individuals are usually the ones speeding through quests to avoid the grind...the same grind they turn around and complain about in other threads about other MMOs (usually Asian) that cater more to mob grinding.
No wonder modern devs can't seem to get their games right, they're in a no win situation. Don't blame the games, blame the players.
Name me one mmo out there where I can go and grind mobs and progress at the same rate as if I was questing. Anybody can grind of course but if its a slower way of leveling then nobody will do it. We need games that offers grinding as a real alternative to questing.
Name one place in my post where I said the leveling pace would be equal? I didn't. What I answered was the OP's "bring back mob xp". What I'm saying is that mob xp never left, so he can go and do that. Questing just makes things faster so most choose that route even though they do have other options. What he is asking for is the old style mob grinding in place before quests. But it's still there, and just as slow of a process as it was originally (correct me if I'm wrong). So what, are you saying now that you want the old style of leveling but in "fast easy mode edition" with "xp boost"? Or saying take xp from quests totally so only the niche who enjoyed mob grinding will enjoy it?
Oh, btw, In Tera you can grind BAMs to level fairly equally (I would actually say at times faster) than questing. So yes, there are games that offer that.
Where did I say you said it would be equal? You are telling a person to take a slower leveling process so how is that even a answer? Who said anything about fast easy mode or xp boost? Like I said in my op of course somebody can just go and kill mobs in any game but what the op is asking is for that he wants it to be a real form of progression like it use to be.
Also you are wrong in Tera. You cannot grind bams and level at the same pace as a person doing quest. Been there and tried it many times.
What are you talking about? Are you even really reading my posts? I'm not telling the OP to do anything, he himself is asking for the process. Stop confusing your own aims with what is stated directly in the OP. Like it used to be? The process of mob grinding to level in the past was slow. That is how it used to be. There were no real other options, so thats why it was viable, but leveling was sped up with all the xp quests started rewarding. OP says he wants to go back to leveling before questing put everything on rails. So I'm saying he can just get off the rails, and level his own way with mobs like he used to.
As for Tera, I am definitely not wrong. Look up any Tera power leveling guide, and it will tell you to go kill mobs, and where. I just leveled up one of my toons last month to 40 for the reaper update, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Comments
You might be surprised at how many bots are in 'mob grinding' games. The number of bots isn't a function of the game, but a function of the people who want progression without actually sitting there participating in the progression, or a function of the people who want to grind gold for real world money. Bots are very capable of coordinating efforts as a group. 'Mob Grinding' as an activity isn't going to be a preventative measure against bots.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The same people who are more than happy to just grind mobs for hours in Diablo 3 wouldn't have touched WoW if it worked the same way. Why? I have no idea. Maybe it's just that one game has a persistent world and the other one doesn't. Quizzical is right in that mob grinding as an activity in MMORPGs is secondary to questing. I would be interesting in knowing why this is the case though, when the same people who want that quest design in MMORPGs are happy with mob grinding in other types of games.
**
And those same people are happy to spend hours "grinding" ore in Minecraft. *shrug*
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I would have loved to have gotten there, phumbaba.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's true, that this kind of grind wouldn't work out with WoW for exemple, because the game was not made for such .. activity. You need to take into consideration some things if you want to add mob grinding. You cannot take WoW with the vanilla features or what is it today and make it mob grinding to be the main xp source
From my experience, mob grinding works best with Diablo style MMO's like : Lineage 1-2 , Mu Online and even Runescape . There are more, I am sure, but you got the point. Also Aion, does a pretty good job with mobs grinding.
Anyway , I would rather have .. quests which tells you to : Kill 700 mobs or Kill 200 of X mobs, 100 of Y mobs, 400 of Z mobs + complete 3 raid bosses in order to receive ... I don't know .. something O.K
Because I am telling you, I am kinda boring completing the usual : Kill 10 skeletons then come back to tell you to kill 12 rats. But please, after this, go to High Priest of Azuracias because he will want to kill 10 skeletons and after that, go back and take 15 bones from the same skeletons, to give to his brother which is near him.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I just wish either option was available. I miss the days in Asheron's Call wielding my acid sword and standing with my ass in a corner killing wave after endless wave of Olthoi in their hives. I would have liked to have more questing in the game though, for the days I didn't feel like grinding endless waves of mobs.
A balance between the two would be great.
We did get there. You stated your position, and I let you know how wrong that position was. Hence a constructive discussion. Win-win. To reiterate and rephrase, Quest Hubs have killed the social aspect of online gaming.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
And apparently, not that many people would care. In fact, there are plenty of other types of online games with no quests hub but little socializing.
I would argue that socializing is not that popular anyway. It is not a big problem. Plus, you can always go to chat in almost any online game. It is right there. If few others use it, it is not the problem of the game.
You're not re-iterating. You're stating something completely different... or are you suggesting quest hubs are the only way that quests can be made?
Is it your stance that the level-tiered, non-repeatable state of today's quests do not contribute to the problem? If so, could you share why you feel that isn't a factor in the break down of the social aspect of MMOs?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Pretty sure my second post, below, would be considered as reitterating the first.
Lok, If you want to find some common ground, misstatements are not a good place to start. For the record, I do look favorably upon you and your posts, even if you come across as inflamatory at times. Not assuming you care, but I wanted to mention it.
Level-tiered quests are absolutely the problem. Otherwise known as "quest hubs." Players of a certain level arrive at the hub and do all the quests before moving to the next hub.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
So we agree. I had a feeling that was the case, despite your initial reply. The impression I got from your replies (rather inflammatory ones at that, if you really want to bounce that ball around the court) seemed to state that it was questing as a whole is THE problem and reason why MMOs today have become so disposable, with no meaningful social interaction taking place. Thank you for clarifying.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
People got bored of it...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I've been playing both WoW and Diablo 3 a bit lately just to try them out again.
Diablo 3 is non stop killing. It personally wears me down a lot faster then playing WoW. You never take any time to rest or enjoy the game. It's always go go go. EQ had a lot of grinding, but down time forced you to take breaks and allowed your mind to rest a bit. I find I start to develop a headache after playing Diablo 3 for more than an hour or two due to the non stop action in the game.
I was actually having a lot of fun playing WoW despite the quests. There was a lot of times where I was just running from one point to another. The pace of combat is much slower allowing your mind to rest a bit more. I'd say for me the experience was a lot more fun despite the quests. It was more a matter of the pace of things and having limited options in terms of traveling around that turns me off from Diablo 3 a bit. I don't see Diablo 3 as a game to relax and enjoy yourself.
Having played both games I still want to see the option to grind mobs become more viable, but I am starting to realize games with that are non stop action are not really for me or that I can't play them for very long without taking some breaks. This is also what makes grouping/raiding/pvp difficult in MMOs IMO. Your group usually wants to keep killing non stop until the goal is met with no rest time in between fights for your brain to recover. Even the simplest of tasks will take a toll on you if you do it with no breaks over a long period of time.
undead-orc anuses. LOL!!!
And yes I agree. I rather explore and kill mobs rather than doing single player quests.
My gaming blog
uh? You need to "rest" to enjoy the game?
non-stop killing *is* the enjoyment (aside from tweaking builds/gear .. so you can non-stop killing even more efficiently).
I suppose you enjoy stuff very differently than most players. I have never seen anyone complaining (except you) that it is too fast. And of course people who are too slow (like stay in town forever) got kicked.
I am glad i can play a game like D3 with no down-time. Going back to WoW seems like everything is at a snail pace.
I believe it's similar to people who multitask generally not doing as good a of a job at what they are doing because their brain is constantly tied up without getting any breaks. There is also the research that says people today are to busy and it's taking away their creativity since they don't have to amuse themselves. Basically it's good to have periods of inactivity in game. I also notice Diablo 3 is hard on the hands. You play it for a few hours and your hand starts to hurt from all the clicking to move around and attack with the mouse. In WoW it is slow enough a pace you can enjoy the quests, scenery, adventure, a bit. I'm not sure what is enjoyable about non stop killing/action. I find it tedious and also bad for you in many ways.
Who says playing it for hours? You can rest after every rift which takes no more than 20-30 min even for the slow in-efficient players.
And what multitask? Everyone is focus on combat .. and what does "doing as good a job" has to do with anything? We are talking about whether playing D3 is fun. It is not a job. It is not a test. It is just a fun game to enjoy while wasting time.
And creativity? really ... in playing a combat dungeon game?
Why do a hack-n-slash game needs to "slow down" in a 20 min play session? You can rest as much as you want after each section .. and from what i have seen, no one is interested in slowly down to talk or anything. Just kill till you are satisfied, quit the group and do other stuff (like try build/gear) to just quit the game.
Most games, in the most general of sense, build in rest periods or are slowly enough paced that the mind does not have to struggle to constantly keep up (if they require higher than usual mental effort).
And remember your sample is biased. You cite the fact that almost everyone who bought D3 enjoys non-stop killing. Well, that was kinda the point of the Diablo series. So of course people who are attracted to that will be the majority of folks who buy that game..
I think what he's getting at is something I actually experience in WoW, oddly enough. LFD seemed to be the fastest way to level for me, so that's what I was doing most of the time. It was mind-numbing and exhausting. The groups never needed downtime, so it was all run run kill kill run run kill kill. Nonstop. No talking. No downtime. I couldn't play more than a few before I was zoned out and just mindlessly mashing the same few buttons.
I've never been a fan of quests, I just can't be bothered to read them. Maybe if they were part of a larger story and if they were written by incredibly talented writes. But I refuse to do the "fetch me 10 hides" quests, and I still see these in MMO.
I want to just play and quests aren't gameplay for me, they are just things to click through.
The enjoyment comes from the fact you are together in a massive world, not from some static NPC who is asking you to kill a few wolves, get your own please.
I guess if that is the way you are leveling, but you don't have to do that in WoW. You can take your time and go slow (enjoy the game). Grouping is optional. Small groups is can be done when you want if you want to play like that, but even then there is generally some time to rest.
I don't think I could get into the game just playing for 20 minutes at a time. I've always had that issue with games. When I play them I usually play them at least a 1 hour, but many times 2 or 3. 20 minutes doesn't seem enough time to get into the a game.
I'm not sure where the "doing a good job" part came from. Diablo 3 feels like a job to me though. You are basically repeating the same thing over and over again with no rest. In WoW you are repeating the same thing over and over again, but at least the quest and traveling around breaks it up a bit.
The 3rd/1st person wasd movement also is a lot easier on the hands.
Intelligent mob grinding AI... you kill a rat, get 10 XP... you kill another rat, you get 6 XP... another rat 2XP... another 0 XP. Keep killing rats, get 0 XP. You kill a bunny, get 10 XP... you kill another bunny, you get 6 XP... another bunny 2 XP... another 0 XP. Keep killing bunnies, get 0 XP. This repeats itself until you've killed every type of NPC in game until 24 hours has expired from the time you killed the last NPC rewarding 0 XP.
This prevents you from farming mobs endlessly for XP. You will have to move on to new mobs to kill continuously until you've either run out of NPC types or are no longer within level range to do damage to them. You can still gain quest XP for completing quests but you will not gain additional mob XP for killing a particular mob if you have zeroed out your XP for that NPC type.
I would really dislike such a system. Part of community building is actually static grinding, when you constantly move you have no time to socialise. This is very apparent in action based MMO that have no social fabric.
What are you talking about? Are you even really reading my posts? I'm not telling the OP to do anything, he himself is asking for the process. Stop confusing your own aims with what is stated directly in the OP. Like it used to be? The process of mob grinding to level in the past was slow. That is how it used to be. There were no real other options, so thats why it was viable, but leveling was sped up with all the xp quests started rewarding. OP says he wants to go back to leveling before questing put everything on rails. So I'm saying he can just get off the rails, and level his own way with mobs like he used to.
As for Tera, I am definitely not wrong. Look up any Tera power leveling guide, and it will tell you to go kill mobs, and where. I just leveled up one of my toons last month to 40 for the reaper update, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.