ok lets simplify this for the mentally challenged. pre development, CIG sells ships to create capitol to create the game. Common sense, players have to option to not buy a ship.. their choice, noones holding a gun to their heads and they can still play the Arena Commander PVP portion of the game in the same ships as everyone else who did buy ships...
No pay to win there.
Ok lets look at release -
Every ship minus a few Bengal Carrier being on of them will be available for sale in the game for UEE credits. So if you are in a rush and have the cash to spend why not buy it off the Cstore? However for those who dont have the cash, they can play the game earn the credits and purchase the same ships from the vendors.
So please explain how this could possibly be pay to win? Noone has an advantage over anyone else, and if you are one of those braindead fools who believe the smaller ships cannot kill the big capitol ships you are so dead wrong.
Capital Ships are near useless against small fighters and for the capital ship to launch fighters they have to lower shields. One good missile into the hangar, or a nuke and the ships crippled.
The devs have gone into exhaustive detail over the mechanics of the dogfighting and fighters vs capital ships. Noone holds an over whelming advantage. and if you think your single seater fighter should be OP against a medium class ship or Capital ship you need to lay off the kool-aid.
As far as I get it the ship HULLS will be relatively easy to acquire in game, but theses hulls mean work, there will be lots of stuff to acquire a la Star Wars Galaxies, high end components for each ship you only get in lawless or low security sectors or from special missons, and don´t forget interior decorations and compartments, like cargo bays or prison cells, or med bays, so the hull is just the basic shell which comes with more or less preloaded equipment.
I highly doubt that any of the pledge ships is already fully kitted out with absolute highest grade equipment.
Each ship has a progression of its own, and is customizable. - just think of the rare components you will need for chip tuning.
So who will buy lots of hulls, I´d rather go for a few and start "maxing" them out in the game, then maybe move on to something bigger or with a different role in the universe.
As far as I get it the ship HULLS will be relatively easy to acquire in game, but theses hulls mean work, there will be lots of stuff to acquire a la Star Wars Galaxies, high end components for each ship you only get in lawless or low security sectors or from special missons, and don´t forget interior decorations and compartments, like cargo bays or prison cells, or med bays, so the hull is just the basic shell which comes with more or less preloaded equipment.
I highly doubt that any of the pledge ships is already fully kitted out with absolute highest grade equipment.
Each ship has a progression of its own, and is customizable. - just think of the rare components you will need for chip tuning.
So who will buy lots of hulls, I´d rather go for a few and start "maxing" them out in the game, then maybe move on to something bigger or with a different role in the universe.
Yes, new pledge ships and insurance replacement ships only come with the very basic version of all equipment. That includes all the ships replaced by insurance companies ... you get the right hull, equipped with the basic equipment version, but not the (possibly high end) equipment that was installed as the ship was destroyed ... There will be "no insurance fly zones" in lawless space ..... if you want a ship insured there, you will have to find a special agent for that (and expect a significantly higher price .... thats not your average car insurance salesman type of guy ;-)
High end components will be found in lawless space, but not only there. There is a good chance that you will get it also in civilized sections as possible reward for a plotline (e.g. from a high tech company for a series of missions ..... e.g. capture back a stolen prototype kind of thing).
Besides the hunt for the high end version of equipment i expect pilots to stock up on as many variable modules for their hull (at first only the basic versions of it). So they can modify and customize their standard ships as much as possible. They then can trade, explore, fight, race, hide .... depending on the chosen module combination. Chris Roberts in his last Ten for the Chairman mentioned things like extra fuel pods for long duration missions, extra ECM and ECCM pods for electronic warfare missions etc. There should be an in depth article on modularization by CIG soon - CR mentioned it one month ago.
I think it is a valid argument. While I am not ready to announce Star Citizen is pay to win (Because the game has not launched yet and how could we know?) I do think it certainly is treading on dangerous ground.
I recall playing Eve years ago and trying to get back into it recently; it was hopeless. Without a large base of allies and time to build your strength, you are at the mercy of the majority of the player base. Not noob friendly.
Likewise, someone who purchases a large ship in Star Citizen with many hard points and the ability to really load out a lot of weapons is going to have an advantage against someone in a starter ship regardless of any other factors, interaction, or environment. Does it break the game? Probably not if other factors are controlled, e.g. attacking a noobie brings grave consequences so maybe the noobie isn't immediately turned off from the experience, as he/she takes time to build strength and become established in the world. Maybe he or she can quest close to a home system for a time. (I haven't followed every aspect of the game closely) With that said, again side by side, the person in the big shiny star destroying monster-class vessel is going to have an easier time of it vs. the less financially well off noobie who couldn't afford the big ship. I would also venture a guess, our star destroying hero is a more desirable guild mate than the noobie so he or she will be treated differently. "Hey dude, we are good with Mustang jockeys for the time being..."
Purchasing digital goods such as ships and weapons is much different than purchasing cosmetic items. There has long been the argument that gear does not outweigh skill. I would agree with that.....to a degree. If I'm driving around in a Death Star you probably aren't going to fly by and easily own me in your X-Wing. I don't have to be all that good to take you out. You need to be really exceptional to take me on and win (or be using the Force - grin)
Get my drift? How this turns out is largely in part to how the whole economy, rules systems, etc. are handled. It has the potential to be a disaster. Again, with that said, I have a high degree of respect for Chris Roberts. I have played all of his games to date and he usually gets it right. Privateer remains one of my all time favorite games.
Yes, the big ship with many hard-points will have an advantage over the starter ship. However, keep in mind that those big ships need several (player) crew to work effectively. There is no solo pwn-mobile in Star Citizen. You can try to fly such a big ship solo and you CAN get from point A to point B ... in time. Will you be good in a fight ? Not really. NPC crew helps a bit, but as we all know, AI crew can only do so much. Especially when in Star Citizen you can be boarded by players and literally be kicked out of your pilot seat if you are the only player in a big ship. This being a Chris Roberts game, you can also expect big ships without a (player) controlled fighter defense screen to be VERY vulnerable to being torpedoed by player controlled torpedo bombers.
The big difference of SC compared to pay-to-win games .... nothing in game can ONLY be bought with real world money. ANYTHING in game can be bought with in game cash. Its a design principle of Star Citizen. And after launch you cannot buy ships with real world cash anymore like during the crowdfunding phase.
If you know EVE Online, you know that newbie ships are not usually attacked in the civilized inner systems, as CONCORD will quickly dispatch the attacker. Some suicide bombing happens, but not that much outside Jita (or during a Goonie Hulkageddon) . In Star Citizen you will have more security than in EVE. Especially as you can choose to a certain extent (PvP/PvE slider) how much interaction you want with other players (which includes being attacked by them). So ... unless the intrepid newbie goes sightseeing in a pirate system/station like Spider, he does not have to fear much from the other player in the much bigger ship.
Have fun
PS:
The X-Wing won ;-)
PPS:
Twice ;-)
(and the second time not every X-Wing pilot was a force user)
ok lets simplify this for the mentally challenged. pre development, CIG sells ships to create capitol to create the game. Common sense, players have to option to not buy a ship.. their choice, noones holding a gun to their heads and they can still play the Arena Commander PVP portion of the game in the same ships as everyone else who did buy ships...
No pay to win there.
Ok lets look at release -
Every ship minus a few Bengal Carrier being on of them will be available for sale in the game for UEE credits. So if you are in a rush and have the cash to spend why not buy it off the Cstore? However for those who dont have the cash, they can play the game earn the credits and purchase the same ships from the vendors.
So please explain how this could possibly be pay to win? Noone has an advantage over anyone else, and if you are one of those braindead fools who believe the smaller ships cannot kill the big capitol ships you are so dead wrong.
Capital Ships are near useless against small fighters and for the capital ship to launch fighters they have to lower shields. One good missile into the hangar, or a nuke and the ships crippled.
The devs have gone into exhaustive detail over the mechanics of the dogfighting and fighters vs capital ships. Noone holds an over whelming advantage. and if you think your single seater fighter should be OP against a medium class ship or Capital ship you need to lay off the kool-aid.
You are incorrect, not all ships will be obtainable in game by anyone.
Sycthe with insurance is not obtainable in game, it was only for purchase. The Idris (and others) will be sold in limited number so that not everyone can get one, a small number will be sold in an auction each month.
So if you really wanted those ships you had to purchase them to make sure you get one.
>>>Sycthe with insurance is not obtainable in game, it was only for purchase. The Idris (and others) will be sold in limited number so that not everyone can get one, a small number will be sold in an auction each month.>>>
Scythe is one of the exotic alien ships - spoils of war. Like all "special" ships - to our current knowledge - you can get insurance for them in the outer systems from shady characters, although at a higher rate than the usual insurance in the inner systems.
Idris will be sold in limited numbers - to our current knowledge you have to be on very good terms with the navy to be eligible to buy such a surplus ex-warship. So its more a matter of gaining a high standing with the navy in game than a matter of (real world) cash. If you play Elite:Dangerous .... like trying to obtain a Federation Dropship.
>>>Sycthe with insurance is not obtainable in game, it was only for purchase. The Idris (and others) will be sold in limited number so that not everyone can get one, a small number will be sold in an auction each month.>>>
Scythe is one of the exotic alien ships - spoils of war. Like all "special" ships - to our current knowledge - you can get insurance for them in the outer systems from shady characters, although at a higher rate than the usual insurance in the inner systems.
Idris will be sold in limited numbers - to our current knowledge you have to be on very good terms with the navy to be eligible to buy such a surplus ex-warship. So its more a matter of gaining a high standing with the navy in game than a matter of (real world) cash. If you play Elite:Dangerous .... like trying to obtain a Federation Dropship.
Nothing of that is written in stone yet.
Have fun
Other than the ED reference, what you said was incorrect. CIG have said over and over again that the Scythe can not be insured, other alien ships can be but not the Scythe. The Idris and others are made in limited numbers, and will not be obtainable to everyone that wants one. It is not a matter of just getting faction rep like in ED.
The only way to make sure you get those ships is to purchase them with real money.
>>>Sycthe with insurance is not obtainable in game, it was only for purchase. The Idris (and others) will be sold in limited number so that not everyone can get one, a small number will be sold in an auction each month.>>>
Scythe is one of the exotic alien ships - spoils of war. Like all "special" ships - to our current knowledge - you can get insurance for them in the outer systems from shady characters, although at a higher rate than the usual insurance in the inner systems.
Idris will be sold in limited numbers - to our current knowledge you have to be on very good terms with the navy to be eligible to buy such a surplus ex-warship. So its more a matter of gaining a high standing with the navy in game than a matter of (real world) cash. If you play Elite:Dangerous .... like trying to obtain a Federation Dropship.
Nothing of that is written in stone yet.
Have fun
Other than the ED reference, what you said was incorrect. CIG have said over and over again that the Scythe can not be insured, other alien ships can be but not the Scythe. The Idris and others are made in limited numbers, and will not be obtainable to everyone that wants one. It is not a matter of just getting faction rep like in ED.
The only way to make sure you get those ships is to purchase them with real money.
It's not an exclusion thing though it's a lore thing with the Scythe. The way insurance works is that when you lose your ship it will take time to replace it as:
A) One has to be manufactured to replace it and...
You have to wait in line behind everyone else that has filed an insurance claim for that ship ahead of you.
The Scythe is a special case as well as all of the Vanduul ships that are captured because the UEE does not have access to Vanduul manufacturing or supply. This means there is literally no place for these replacement Scythes (or any other Vanduul ship) to come from. The only way to acquire a Vanduul ship in the PU is to capture one. When you look at it like this it makes perfect sense why Vanduul ships are uninsureable. I'm actually very surprised they offered LTI at all on them as when those ships get destroyed a new one is literally going to have to be conjured out of thin air to replace it. This breaks the supply and demand aspect of the economy in a small way.
I think also many people are using the model of the usual mmo world where everyone is pushed through the same rails and end up at the same place at the end, and then duke it up in some arena together, but I have a feeling that those people have not played EvE for any extensive amount of time, and don't perhaps understand just how incredibly vast a space game can be and how the people you deal with in your small part of the galaxy are a very very very very tiny subset of the player base as you make your living and advance yourself in the virtual world, while the vast majority of players might as well be on other servers because of how far that are. Yet of course you can fly over to where those people are if you want.
For example in EvE I ended up moving to other parts of the universe many times (and that move being a big enterprise needing planning and so on and so a significant game play item because your stuff doesn't follow you in some magical bank accessible from anywhere) - moving many times because competition that I couldn't handle settled in the same part of space. So that guy has a significant massive advantage over me, oh well, I'll move over there where I never will ever encounter that guy anymore.
So some dudes payed billions and ended up with a super ship of omgpwnage, well that's nice, but he's literally a week of real life time worth of flying away from where I am, there's no reason to ever, ever compete against him (and if there ever was, maybe I would get my buddies to form a squad and we'd pounce him him and blow up his super expensive ship and items and he has to start from scratch anyway.. oh well!)
Other than the ED reference, what you said was incorrect.
--> Yes, Ben (on behalf of Chris Roberts) made a clarification w.r.t to the Kickstarter Scythes. But they are only talking about CAPTURED Scythes (those with the LTI, the ones the UEE found). Words are important. Especially with alien races like the Banu happily trading both with the Vanduul and the humans. Other options have NOT been ruled out ... see the quotes below, especially the remarks about the Banu and the Black Market. After all - all those LTI replacement Vanduul Scythes have to come from somewhere in game lorewise... ;-)
CIG have said over and over again that the Scythe can not be insured, other alien ships can be but not the Scythe. The Idris and others are made in limited numbers, and will not be obtainable to everyone that wants one. It is not a matter of just getting faction rep like in ED.
--> The Idris corvette is dead; long live the Idris frigate!
--> "If you’re absolutely dead set on seeing a corvette in Star Citizen, have no fear: our designers and artists are going to get to work on a new, smaller corvette that will be made available in the future!" First we got the Idris (totally limited :-), then the Idris-P(eacekeeper) (not so limited :-) .... maybe we get an Idris-C(ivilian) or whatever they will call this.
The only way to make sure you get those ships is to purchase them with real money.
--> "Mod Note: Due to a proliferation of alien insurance threads, the community management team has decided to merge a number of recently created discussions in order to focus feedback for the developers. Closely related topics will be merged into this thread.
So the old FAQ regarding insuring alien ships used to read:
Can I insure alien or one-off ships? No. The only exception is the limited number of Vanduul fighters sold through the RSI site during the pledge campaign
But it's now been updated to:
Can I insure alien or one-off ships? You can not insure them through the standard UEE-bonded insurance process, although other options will be available.
I think this is a great move on CIG's part. It's gonna be a lot of fun to beat the odds and capture a Scythe, and then go through the extra steps to find insurance for it. This will be a fantastic addition to the game, and it provides a great way to CIG to get themselves out of the whole Scythe+Insurance debacle.
EDIT:"
[from Ben Lesnick]: We have no changes to insurance to announce right now.
As you know, with recent stretch goals we are expanding the systems behind the Xi'an and Banu ships, which will likely mean alternate insurance options to cover those ships. We have not balanced these systems yet, nor have we determined what impact they will have on the Scythe (will the Banu insure a Scythe? Some kind of black market broker? Maybe, but we haven't plotted that out yet... and likely won't for some time, since insurance is something that won't come into play until much later in the development process.)
Other than the ED reference, what you said was incorrect.
--> Yes, Ben (on behalf of Chris Roberts) made a clarification w.r.t to the Kickstarter Scythes. But they are only talking about CAPTURED Scythes (those with the LTI, the ones the UEE found). Words are important. Especially with alien races like the Banu happily trading both with the Vanduul and the humans. Other options have NOT been ruled out ... see the quotes below, especially the remarks about the Banu and the Black Market. After all - all those LTI replacement Vanduul Scythes have to come from somewhere in game lorewise... ;-)
CIG have said over and over again that the Scythe can not be insured, other alien ships can be but not the Scythe. The Idris and others are made in limited numbers, and will not be obtainable to everyone that wants one. It is not a matter of just getting faction rep like in ED.
--> The Idris corvette is dead; long live the Idris frigate!
--> "If you’re absolutely dead set on seeing a corvette in Star Citizen, have no fear: our designers and artists are going to get to work on a new, smaller corvette that will be made available in the future!" First we got the Idris (totally limited :-), then the Idris-P(eacekeeper) (not so limited :-) .... maybe we get an Idris-C(ivilian) or whatever they will call this.
The only way to make sure you get those ships is to purchase them with real money.
--> "Mod Note: Due to a proliferation of alien insurance threads, the community management team has decided to merge a number of recently created discussions in order to focus feedback for the developers. Closely related topics will be merged into this thread.
So the old FAQ regarding insuring alien ships used to read:
Can I insure alien or one-off ships? No. The only exception is the limited number of Vanduul fighters sold through the RSI site during the pledge campaign
But it's now been updated to:
Can I insure alien or one-off ships? You can not insure them through the standard UEE-bonded insurance process, although other options will be available.
I think this is a great move on CIG's part. It's gonna be a lot of fun to beat the odds and capture a Scythe, and then go through the extra steps to find insurance for it. This will be a fantastic addition to the game, and it provides a great way to CIG to get themselves out of the whole Scythe+Insurance debacle.
EDIT:"
[from Ben Lesnick]: We have no changes to insurance to announce right now.
As you know, with recent stretch goals we are expanding the systems behind the Xi'an and Banu ships, which will likely mean alternate insurance options to cover those ships. We have not balanced these systems yet, nor have we determined what impact they will have on the Scythe (will the Banu insure a Scythe? Some kind of black market broker? Maybe, but we haven't plotted that out yet... and likely won't for some time, since insurance is something that won't come into play until much later in the development process.)
-- End Quote --
Have fun
Funny, how you didn't provide any evidence contradicting the limited nature of the Idris. Perhaps you forgot to link it?
So on the insurance on the Scythe you linked a post by a random forum member that was stated (did not link) an email from costumer support? While actual links from CIG state that you can not insure captured ships.
Funny, how you didn't provide any evidence contradicting the limited nature of the Idris. Perhaps you forgot to link it?
So on the insurance on the Scythe you linked a post by a random forum member that was stated (did not link) an email from costumer support? While actual links from CIG state that you can not insure captured ships.
The "Idris" and "Idris-P" is limited in numbers. We agree on this point, so there is no reason to contradict. But just as the "Idris-P" unexpectedly followed up the "Idris" (which until then counted as "limited" and "sold out" too), there is a good chance that we will see other versions of this ship class in the future. Could be a smaller, civilian version (perhaps named Idris-C ? .... see the quotes in my last post), perhaps available in unlimited (?!) numbers.
And again, we agree on the point that "captured" Scythes are not insurable just like Chris Roberts said (you also find that in my last post). There is no reason to contradict that. But - words being important - him explicitly talking only about the captured Scythes (and not Scythes in general) and Ben speaking about Banu traders and the Black Market leaves all options open for e.g.traded Scythes coming in via Banu trade channels (just as the Banu are ready and willing to buy and trade human ships, why should they not do the same with civilian (?, if there is such a thing in Vanduul society) Vanduul ships).
Which also solves the problem in Star Citizen lore, where the owners of captured Scythes with LTI get their replacement ships within the universe. The Banu bring them.
And for those (alien) ships (you might think of these more as a Banu trade product) and other non-standard ships there ARE plans (nothing fixed yet!) for insurance, although not the usual one via insurance companies. Think shadow-brokers and shady contacts in pirate systems. Think higher insurance cost, loanshark style.
Funny, how you didn't provide any evidence contradicting the limited nature of the Idris. Perhaps you forgot to link it?
So on the insurance on the Scythe you linked a post by a random forum member that was stated (did not link) an email from costumer support? While actual links from CIG state that you can not insure captured ships.
The "Idris" and "Idris-P" is limited in numbers. We agree on this point, so there is no reason to contradict. But just as the "Idris-P" unexpectedly followed up the "Idris" (which until then counted as "limited" and "sold out" too), there is a good chance that we will see other versions of this ship class in the future. Could be a smaller, civilian version (perhaps named Idris-C ? .... see the quotes in my last post), perhaps available in unlimited (?!) numbers.
And again, we agree on the point that "captured" Scythes are not insurable just like Chris Roberts said (you also find that in my last post). There is no reason to contradict that. But - words being important - him explicitly talking only about the captured Scythes (and not Scythes in general) and Ben speaking about Banu traders and the Black Market leaves all options open for e.g.traded Scythes coming in via Banu trade channels (just as the Banu are ready and willing to buy and trade human ships, why should they not do the same with civilian (?, if there is such a thing in Vanduul society) Vanduul ships).
Which also solves the problem in Star Citizen lore, where the owners of captured Scythes with LTI get their replacement ships within the universe. The Banu bring them.
And for those (alien) ships (you might think of these more as a Banu trade product) and other non-standard ships there ARE plans (nothing fixed yet!) for insurance, although not the usual one via insurance companies. Think shadow-brokers and shady contacts in pirate systems. Think higher insurance cost, loanshark style.
Have fun
So why respond on the point on the Scythe? Nothing has changed you can not get an insured Scythe in game. Why do you feel the need to post pointless links? And type a lot of text to say nothing?
And again with the Idris, you posted a link that does not back up anything you say and then claim how it does. You have a real history of doing that. Like I said the Idris is limited in numbers and not everyone will be able to get one in game. CIG has already sold ships that not everyone can quire in game.
So why respond on the point on the Scythe? Nothing has changed you can not get an insured Scythe in game. Why do you feel the need to post pointless links? And type a lot of text to say nothing?
And again with the Idris, you posted a link that does not back up anything you say and then claim how it does. You have a real history of doing that. Like I said the Idris is limited in numbers and not everyone will be able to get one in game. CIG has already sold ships that not everyone can quire in game.
You know that when CIG say there is a 'limited number' of ships the intention is that only x amount of ships will be in universe at any given time? That's certainly what they are doing with the Bengal and other very large ships. It doesn't mean new ones can't be added to the populace, it just means there's limited numbers at any given time.
This is a serious question, because I keep seeing people insist it is not just because you will not be able to buy the ships with RL money after it releases. The problem is you CAN buy them now with RL money. How is it people spending $1000's of dollars on ships today are not paying to win from day 1 while the rest of us are flying around in our poor man newbie ships? If you are more powerful from day 1 you will be more powerful day 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and so on. So I can eventually afford to buy your $1000 ship in game after a couple months of playing, by then where is the guy who started with that ship?
Seriously, explain to me how this is not pay to win without the "no one is forcing you to buy anything" cliche, and without telling me everything will be available in game for game currency. I get both of those concepts, but it walks and talks like a duck, to me it is a duck. Convince me otherwise please, because so far I don't get it.
Skill is more important than money in this game. You can spend 100k in this game and you will still loose to a more skilled player.
So is not pay2win. If anything is pay2have_a_good_ship
So why respond on the point on the Scythe? Nothing has changed you can not get an insured Scythe in game. Why do you feel the need to post pointless links? And type a lot of text to say nothing?
And again with the Idris, you posted a link that does not back up anything you say and then claim how it does. You have a real history of doing that. Like I said the Idris is limited in numbers and not everyone will be able to get one in game. CIG has already sold ships that not everyone can quire in game.
You know that when CIG say there is a 'limited number' of ships the intention is that only x amount of ships will be in universe at any given time? That's certainly what they are doing with the Bengal and other very large ships. It doesn't mean new ones can't be added to the populace, it just means there's limited numbers at any given time.
Yep and that is my point, that means the only sure way of getting one is to purchase it. Otherwise you have a very small chance as they are limited. So in other words CIG are selling ships that not everyone can get, hey look SC is CR's version of P2W.
Yep and that is my point, that means the only sure way of getting one is to purchase it. Otherwise you have a very small chance as they are limited. So in other words CIG are selling ships that not everyone can get, hey look SC is CR's version of P2W.
Does everyone have to go for "the only sure way" ?
How about ... you know ... EARN it instead of buying it ?
Like the way the very few Bengals will be distributed .... find one behind enemy lines, repair one in the field, out-fit one in the field, bring it back into the Imperium, use it as a mobile HQ and base. All the while fending off Vanduul aliens and other players trying to steal your restored ship after you have done all the hard work.
THAT would make you MUCH prouder of your achievement than any purchase.
I started reading that thread and over and over and over, the line that was repeated was "You can get that in game" But you, and that thread (to the point where I tired from reading the same reply) have not answered the OP's question.
Player 1 starts out with a better ship. Player 2 has to earn it. If it takes player 2, 3 months to earn an equivalent ship as what player 1 had from day 1, what has the ship that player 1 had allowed him to establish during his advantage from that 1st 3 months? It's the exact same argument used in other P2W games.......They are still P2W.
The argument "You can earn it in game" implies that players who bought better ships sit around idly doing nothing. But that won't be the case. They will be grinding themselves, but they will have better abilities to start off with. If this game has vertical progression, these players with better ships will be able to maintain, if not widen their leads and always stay ahead.
So, unless this game has some kind of progression plateau or horizontal progression system, I still see the same situation the OP sees.
There is a reason some people are willing to spend big money in games. Publishers and developers know this. They have gotten very clever when it comes to disguising how they cater to that need.
I`m with you on this one, that is if I was pushed to define PTW I`d be on your side of the fence. But good thing is that we can play our games without having to decide on it.
I am very tolerant when it comes to ragequits, I can really take a lot (I stopped playing my MMOs for all kinds of reasons, but never for it`s possible PTWs). As long as I can be at least semi-competitive or team up with someone stronger or try to overcome it in any other way (or even pay what should be paid sometimes), I`ll be there. That is, as long as friends are making it worth and the game is fun, eventual PTW is low on my checklist.
If being able to buy every single ship in the game with real money is not paytowin, I'm not sure what is.
You "win" by advancing through the game and getting better ships and stuff, when you can buy those endgame ships for real cash, you're paying to win earlier than you would.
Even CR said that they want to provide "pay to be lazy" to people who don't have much time to grind.
If being able to buy every single ship in the game with real money is not paytowin, I'm not sure what is.
You "win" by advancing through the game and getting better ships and stuff, when you can buy those endgame ships for real cash, you're paying to win earlier than you would.
Even CR said that they want to provide "pay to be lazy" to people who don't have much time to grind.
Pay2win is the ability to buy items which are achievable trough normal gameplay and that are better than the items acievable trough normal gameplay.
This is pay2belazy. Not everybody have time to farm. Speaking for myself i want to jump in a ship have one hour of gameplay pewpew and call it a day.
If being able to buy every single ship in the game with real money is not paytowin, I'm not sure what is.
You "win" by advancing through the game and getting better ships and stuff, when you can buy those endgame ships for real cash, you're paying to win earlier than you would.
Even CR said that they want to provide "pay to be lazy" to people who don't have much time to grind.
I have a basic Hornet since the start of the campaign, pledged some amount to the game that seemed appropriate.
And I can safely say I win nothing in an Alpha. Played some matches, without matchmaking even implemented.
Sometimes win, sometimes lose. Recently an 45$ Aurora handed my ass to me.
Fine -
the basic realization is this one: In an Alpha you "win" nothing, you test.
In the finished game there will be matchmaking of some sort anyway.
I expect you can either buy lots of "stock" ships easily, or focus on one you really like and invest into outfitting and finding the best parts around the verse.
As long this game doesn´t sell "premium ammo" that is massively overpowered I don´t see any way how this game could possibly be pay 2 win, because even with super ammo, you´d have to aim. There can´t be P2W in a twitch shooter.
Comments
This might be difficult, so i'll go slow.
Advantage = Better chance at beating the other person. Beating the other person = winning.
Take your time.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
ok lets simplify this for the mentally challenged. pre development, CIG sells ships to create capitol to create the game. Common sense, players have to option to not buy a ship.. their choice, noones holding a gun to their heads and they can still play the Arena Commander PVP portion of the game in the same ships as everyone else who did buy ships...
No pay to win there.
Ok lets look at release -
Every ship minus a few Bengal Carrier being on of them will be available for sale in the game for UEE credits. So if you are in a rush and have the cash to spend why not buy it off the Cstore? However for those who dont have the cash, they can play the game earn the credits and purchase the same ships from the vendors.
So please explain how this could possibly be pay to win? Noone has an advantage over anyone else, and if you are one of those braindead fools who believe the smaller ships cannot kill the big capitol ships you are so dead wrong.
Capital Ships are near useless against small fighters and for the capital ship to launch fighters they have to lower shields. One good missile into the hangar, or a nuke and the ships crippled.
The devs have gone into exhaustive detail over the mechanics of the dogfighting and fighters vs capital ships. Noone holds an over whelming advantage. and if you think your single seater fighter should be OP against a medium class ship or Capital ship you need to lay off the kool-aid.
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
As far as I get it the ship HULLS will be relatively easy to acquire in game, but theses hulls mean work, there will be lots of stuff to acquire a la Star Wars Galaxies, high end components for each ship you only get in lawless or low security sectors or from special missons, and don´t forget interior decorations and compartments, like cargo bays or prison cells, or med bays, so the hull is just the basic shell which comes with more or less preloaded equipment.
I highly doubt that any of the pledge ships is already fully kitted out with absolute highest grade equipment.
Each ship has a progression of its own, and is customizable. - just think of the rare components you will need for chip tuning.
So who will buy lots of hulls, I´d rather go for a few and start "maxing" them out in the game, then maybe move on to something bigger or with a different role in the universe.
Yes, new pledge ships and insurance replacement ships only come with the very basic version of all equipment. That includes all the ships replaced by insurance companies ... you get the right hull, equipped with the basic equipment version, but not the (possibly high end) equipment that was installed as the ship was destroyed ... There will be "no insurance fly zones" in lawless space ..... if you want a ship insured there, you will have to find a special agent for that (and expect a significantly higher price .... thats not your average car insurance salesman type of guy ;-)
High end components will be found in lawless space, but not only there. There is a good chance that you will get it also in civilized sections as possible reward for a plotline (e.g. from a high tech company for a series of missions ..... e.g. capture back a stolen prototype kind of thing).
Besides the hunt for the high end version of equipment i expect pilots to stock up on as many variable modules for their hull (at first only the basic versions of it). So they can modify and customize their standard ships as much as possible. They then can trade, explore, fight, race, hide .... depending on the chosen module combination. Chris Roberts in his last Ten for the Chairman mentioned things like extra fuel pods for long duration missions, extra ECM and ECCM pods for electronic warfare missions etc. There should be an in depth article on modularization by CIG soon - CR mentioned it one month ago.
Have fun
I think it is a valid argument. While I am not ready to announce Star Citizen is pay to win (Because the game has not launched yet and how could we know?) I do think it certainly is treading on dangerous ground.
I recall playing Eve years ago and trying to get back into it recently; it was hopeless. Without a large base of allies and time to build your strength, you are at the mercy of the majority of the player base. Not noob friendly.
Likewise, someone who purchases a large ship in Star Citizen with many hard points and the ability to really load out a lot of weapons is going to have an advantage against someone in a starter ship regardless of any other factors, interaction, or environment. Does it break the game? Probably not if other factors are controlled, e.g. attacking a noobie brings grave consequences so maybe the noobie isn't immediately turned off from the experience, as he/she takes time to build strength and become established in the world. Maybe he or she can quest close to a home system for a time. (I haven't followed every aspect of the game closely) With that said, again side by side, the person in the big shiny star destroying monster-class vessel is going to have an easier time of it vs. the less financially well off noobie who couldn't afford the big ship. I would also venture a guess, our star destroying hero is a more desirable guild mate than the noobie so he or she will be treated differently. "Hey dude, we are good with Mustang jockeys for the time being..."
Purchasing digital goods such as ships and weapons is much different than purchasing cosmetic items. There has long been the argument that gear does not outweigh skill. I would agree with that.....to a degree. If I'm driving around in a Death Star you probably aren't going to fly by and easily own me in your X-Wing. I don't have to be all that good to take you out. You need to be really exceptional to take me on and win (or be using the Force - grin)
Get my drift? How this turns out is largely in part to how the whole economy, rules systems, etc. are handled. It has the potential to be a disaster. Again, with that said, I have a high degree of respect for Chris Roberts. I have played all of his games to date and he usually gets it right. Privateer remains one of my all time favorite games.
Here's hoping they get it right.
P.S. Anyone want to buy a farm in Archeage?
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
Yes, the big ship with many hard-points will have an advantage over the starter ship. However, keep in mind that those big ships need several (player) crew to work effectively. There is no solo pwn-mobile in Star Citizen. You can try to fly such a big ship solo and you CAN get from point A to point B ... in time. Will you be good in a fight ? Not really. NPC crew helps a bit, but as we all know, AI crew can only do so much. Especially when in Star Citizen you can be boarded by players and literally be kicked out of your pilot seat if you are the only player in a big ship. This being a Chris Roberts game, you can also expect big ships without a (player) controlled fighter defense screen to be VERY vulnerable to being torpedoed by player controlled torpedo bombers.
The big difference of SC compared to pay-to-win games .... nothing in game can ONLY be bought with real world money. ANYTHING in game can be bought with in game cash. Its a design principle of Star Citizen. And after launch you cannot buy ships with real world cash anymore like during the crowdfunding phase.
If you know EVE Online, you know that newbie ships are not usually attacked in the civilized inner systems, as CONCORD will quickly dispatch the attacker. Some suicide bombing happens, but not that much outside Jita (or during a Goonie Hulkageddon) . In Star Citizen you will have more security than in EVE. Especially as you can choose to a certain extent (PvP/PvE slider) how much interaction you want with other players (which includes being attacked by them). So ... unless the intrepid newbie goes sightseeing in a pirate system/station like Spider, he does not have to fear much from the other player in the much bigger ship.
Have fun
PS:
The X-Wing won ;-)
PPS:
Twice ;-)
(and the second time not every X-Wing pilot was a force user)
You are incorrect, not all ships will be obtainable in game by anyone.
Sycthe with insurance is not obtainable in game, it was only for purchase. The Idris (and others) will be sold in limited number so that not everyone can get one, a small number will be sold in an auction each month.
So if you really wanted those ships you had to purchase them to make sure you get one.
>>>Sycthe with insurance is not obtainable in game, it was only for purchase. The Idris (and others) will be sold in limited number so that not everyone can get one, a small number will be sold in an auction each month.>>>
Scythe is one of the exotic alien ships - spoils of war. Like all "special" ships - to our current knowledge - you can get insurance for them in the outer systems from shady characters, although at a higher rate than the usual insurance in the inner systems.
Idris will be sold in limited numbers - to our current knowledge you have to be on very good terms with the navy to be eligible to buy such a surplus ex-warship. So its more a matter of gaining a high standing with the navy in game than a matter of (real world) cash. If you play Elite:Dangerous .... like trying to obtain a Federation Dropship.
Nothing of that is written in stone yet.
Have fun
Other than the ED reference, what you said was incorrect. CIG have said over and over again that the Scythe can not be insured, other alien ships can be but not the Scythe. The Idris and others are made in limited numbers, and will not be obtainable to everyone that wants one. It is not a matter of just getting faction rep like in ED.
The only way to make sure you get those ships is to purchase them with real money.
It's not an exclusion thing though it's a lore thing with the Scythe. The way insurance works is that when you lose your ship it will take time to replace it as:
A) One has to be manufactured to replace it and...
The Scythe is a special case as well as all of the Vanduul ships that are captured because the UEE does not have access to Vanduul manufacturing or supply. This means there is literally no place for these replacement Scythes (or any other Vanduul ship) to come from. The only way to acquire a Vanduul ship in the PU is to capture one. When you look at it like this it makes perfect sense why Vanduul ships are uninsureable. I'm actually very surprised they offered LTI at all on them as when those ships get destroyed a new one is literally going to have to be conjured out of thin air to replace it. This breaks the supply and demand aspect of the economy in a small way.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I think also many people are using the model of the usual mmo world where everyone is pushed through the same rails and end up at the same place at the end, and then duke it up in some arena together, but I have a feeling that those people have not played EvE for any extensive amount of time, and don't perhaps understand just how incredibly vast a space game can be and how the people you deal with in your small part of the galaxy are a very very very very tiny subset of the player base as you make your living and advance yourself in the virtual world, while the vast majority of players might as well be on other servers because of how far that are. Yet of course you can fly over to where those people are if you want.
For example in EvE I ended up moving to other parts of the universe many times (and that move being a big enterprise needing planning and so on and so a significant game play item because your stuff doesn't follow you in some magical bank accessible from anywhere) - moving many times because competition that I couldn't handle settled in the same part of space. So that guy has a significant massive advantage over me, oh well, I'll move over there where I never will ever encounter that guy anymore.
So some dudes payed billions and ended up with a super ship of omgpwnage, well that's nice, but he's literally a week of real life time worth of flying away from where I am, there's no reason to ever, ever compete against him (and if there ever was, maybe I would get my buddies to form a squad and we'd pounce him him and blow up his super expensive ship and items and he has to start from scratch anyway.. oh well!)
So I think there is much ado over nothing here.
More details here:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/73527/giant-alien-ship-insurance-including-scythe-katamari-damacy
-- BEGIN QUOTE --
--> "Mod Note: Due to a proliferation of alien insurance threads, the community management team has decided to merge a number of recently created discussions in order to focus feedback for the developers. Closely related topics will be merged into this thread.
But it's now been updated to: Also, this post here had confirmation through CIG staff:So the old FAQ regarding insuring alien ships used to read:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/1247364/#Comment_1247364 Screenshot of this chat can be found here:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2500/nox2.png
I think this is a great move on CIG's part. It's gonna be a lot of fun to beat the odds and capture a Scythe, and then go through the extra steps to find insurance for it. This will be a fantastic addition to the game, and it provides a great way to CIG to get themselves out of the whole Scythe+Insurance debacle.
EDIT:"
Funny, how you didn't provide any evidence contradicting the limited nature of the Idris. Perhaps you forgot to link it?
So on the insurance on the Scythe you linked a post by a random forum member that was stated (did not link) an email from costumer support? While actual links from CIG state that you can not insure captured ships.
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/204369/alien-insurance-clarification-vanduul-scythe
Even the wiki just says that only those sold during kickstarter have insurance.
http://starcitizen.gamepedia.com/Vanduul_Scythe
The "Idris" and "Idris-P" is limited in numbers. We agree on this point, so there is no reason to contradict. But just as the "Idris-P" unexpectedly followed up the "Idris" (which until then counted as "limited" and "sold out" too), there is a good chance that we will see other versions of this ship class in the future. Could be a smaller, civilian version (perhaps named Idris-C ? .... see the quotes in my last post), perhaps available in unlimited (?!) numbers.
And again, we agree on the point that "captured" Scythes are not insurable just like Chris Roberts said (you also find that in my last post). There is no reason to contradict that. But - words being important - him explicitly talking only about the captured Scythes (and not Scythes in general) and Ben speaking about Banu traders and the Black Market leaves all options open for e.g. traded Scythes coming in via Banu trade channels (just as the Banu are ready and willing to buy and trade human ships, why should they not do the same with civilian (?, if there is such a thing in Vanduul society) Vanduul ships).
Which also solves the problem in Star Citizen lore, where the owners of captured Scythes with LTI get their replacement ships within the universe. The Banu bring them.
And for those (alien) ships (you might think of these more as a Banu trade product) and other non-standard ships there ARE plans (nothing fixed yet!) for insurance, although not the usual one via insurance companies. Think shadow-brokers and shady contacts in pirate systems. Think higher insurance cost, loanshark style.
Have fun
So why respond on the point on the Scythe? Nothing has changed you can not get an insured Scythe in game. Why do you feel the need to post pointless links? And type a lot of text to say nothing?
And again with the Idris, you posted a link that does not back up anything you say and then claim how it does. You have a real history of doing that. Like I said the Idris is limited in numbers and not everyone will be able to get one in game. CIG has already sold ships that not everyone can quire in game.
You know that when CIG say there is a 'limited number' of ships the intention is that only x amount of ships will be in universe at any given time? That's certainly what they are doing with the Bengal and other very large ships. It doesn't mean new ones can't be added to the populace, it just means there's limited numbers at any given time.
Skill is more important than money in this game. You can spend 100k in this game and you will still loose to a more skilled player.
So is not pay2win. If anything is pay2have_a_good_ship
Yep and that is my point, that means the only sure way of getting one is to purchase it. Otherwise you have a very small chance as they are limited. So in other words CIG are selling ships that not everyone can get, hey look SC is CR's version of P2W.
Does everyone have to go for "the only sure way" ?
How about ... you know ... EARN it instead of buying it ?
Like the way the very few Bengals will be distributed .... find one behind enemy lines, repair one in the field, out-fit one in the field, bring it back into the Imperium, use it as a mobile HQ and base. All the while fending off Vanduul aliens and other players trying to steal your restored ship after you have done all the hard work.
THAT would make you MUCH prouder of your achievement than any purchase.
Have fun
I`m with you on this one, that is if I was pushed to define PTW I`d be on your side of the fence. But good thing is that we can play our games without having to decide on it.
I am very tolerant when it comes to ragequits, I can really take a lot (I stopped playing my MMOs for all kinds of reasons, but never for it`s possible PTWs). As long as I can be at least semi-competitive or team up with someone stronger or try to overcome it in any other way (or even pay what should be paid sometimes), I`ll be there. That is, as long as friends are making it worth and the game is fun, eventual PTW is low on my checklist.
The game is not pay2win because currently you can rent ships and weapons and when is live you will be able to achieve them trough ganeplay.
It was told that a 250$ ship will be obtaonable in 60 hours.
If being able to buy every single ship in the game with real money is not paytowin, I'm not sure what is.
You "win" by advancing through the game and getting better ships and stuff, when you can buy those endgame ships for real cash, you're paying to win earlier than you would.
Even CR said that they want to provide "pay to be lazy" to people who don't have much time to grind.
..Cake..
Pay2win is the ability to buy items which are achievable trough normal gameplay and that are better than the items acievable trough normal gameplay.
This is pay2belazy. Not everybody have time to farm. Speaking for myself i want to jump in a ship have one hour of gameplay pewpew and call it a day.
I have a basic Hornet since the start of the campaign, pledged some amount to the game that seemed appropriate.
And I can safely say I win nothing in an Alpha. Played some matches, without matchmaking even implemented.
Sometimes win, sometimes lose. Recently an 45$ Aurora handed my ass to me.
Fine -
the basic realization is this one: In an Alpha you "win" nothing, you test.
In the finished game there will be matchmaking of some sort anyway.
I expect you can either buy lots of "stock" ships easily, or focus on one you really like and invest into outfitting and finding the best parts around the verse.
As long this game doesn´t sell "premium ammo" that is massively overpowered I don´t see any way how this game could possibly be pay 2 win, because even with super ammo, you´d have to aim. There can´t be P2W in a twitch shooter.