Because the game is not released. When it is released the pay cash for in-game items deal will be eliminated. So yeah, explain how it -- will be -- pay to win. This is the alpha. It is simply a means to crowd fund the game while it is in development. How is this hard to understand? It is a thank you to those who do invest, but no one has to but then it also wouldn't be developed. You can wait and pay for the release version if you don't want to crowd fund the game and be rewarded with a ship to get a sneak peak with.
So a ship sold a day before release is not P2W, but a ship sold a day after release is. So how does that work? Oh right it does not.
The ship has the same effect on the game and on its players. Power sold before release is no different then power sold after release. Its still power sold.
SC is P2W
It definately is. There are bonuses and special things for discovering areas in space, there are benefits of having a bigger gun (ship) early on. I could list them but there are so many. SC by definition, is P2W.
only by the made up definition in your fantasy, for whatever reason or agenda.
It´s funny how bashers of an alpha build either say the game doesn´t exist but at the same time say it´s P2W.
So how is winning for you in a non existent game, that´s the real question.
You anti-SC promoters really should scramble together and decide on one strategy. Since the game is coming together now, P2W seems to be the new hip attack point, and it´s as nonsensical as the others were.
only by the made up definition in your fantasy, for whatever reason or agenda.
It´s funny how bashers of an alpha build either say the game doesn´t exist but at the same time say it´s P2W.
So how is winning for you in a non existent game, that´s the real question.
You anti-SC promoters really should scramble together and decide on one strategy. Since the game is coming together now, P2W seems to be the new hip attack point, and it´s as nonsensical as the others were.
Anti-SC promoters... right. God forbid pople just dislike the way CIG have been monetising every little thing or that they're selling in-game assets. I don't like it in any other game and I don't like here regardless if it's "crowdfunding".
Or that they flip-flop over so many things giving the impression that they have really shitty ideas and only change because of how much people protest about them.
But no, everyone should keep quiet and place complete blind trust in the devs and rest assured it will all be ok. We've seen how that works out many times before.
only by the made up definition in your fantasy, for whatever reason or agenda.
It´s funny how bashers of an alpha build either say the game doesn´t exist but at the same time say it´s P2W.
So how is winning for you in a non existent game, that´s the real question.
You anti-SC promoters really should scramble together and decide on one strategy. Since the game is coming together now, P2W seems to be the new hip attack point, and it´s as nonsensical as the others were.
Anti-SC promoters... right. God forbid pople just dislike the way CIG have been monetising every little thing or that they're selling in-game assets. I don't like it in any other game and I don't like here regardless if it's "crowdfunding".
Or that they flip-flop over so many things giving the impression that they have really shitty ideas and only change because of how much people protest about them.
But no, everyone should keep quiet and place complete blind trust in the devs and rest assured it will all be ok. We've seen how that works out many times before.
and you don´t get the fundamental logical fallacy that keeps getting thrown around of CIG "monetizing" anything.
The game development gets funded while the development is in progress, so guess what, the actual monetization of the finished product HASN`T EVEN STARTED because neither the game nor the monetization are set in stone and ready for launch.
Again I ask if EA gives 250 Million $ to Bioware for SWTOR, is that "monetization"?
SC is not finished, there is nothing to win, only to test mechanics, report bugs and give feedback, when neither the PU nor matchmaking mechanics are implemented.
You can complain all day long that they are offering basic ship classes for pledges, with disclaimers everywhere that everything will be obtainable in game for credits, but why not keep up calling it P2W all day long, until the next made up "concern" gains popularity.
Now they just designed, programmed and implemented the REC system where you can unlock every ship for the combat module by gameplay, and this P2W nonsense still comes up. So what is it with the anti-SC posters, is it just ignorance, or simply a badly disguised agenda they are running? Because it can´t possibly be anything else.
And let´s just completely ignore the biggest part they are working on to finish, the single player campaign where your pledge gives you nothing but the naked game, and you´ll get whatever ship the missions require you to fly.
and you don´t get the fundamental logical fallacy that keeps getting thrown around of CIG "monetizing" anything.
The game development gets funded while the development is in progress, so guess what, the actual monetization of the finished product HASN`T EVEN STARTED because neither the game nor the monetization are set in stone and ready for launch.
Again I ask if EA gives 250 Million $ to Bioware for SWTOR, is that "monetization"?
SC is not finished, there is nothing to win, only to test mechanics, report bugs and give feedback, when neither the PU nor matchmaking mechanics are implemented.
You can complain all day long that they are offering basic ship classes for pledges, with disclaimers everywhere that everything will be obtainable in game for credits, but why not keep up calling it P2W all day long, until the next made up "concern" gains popularity.
Now they just designed, programmed and implemented the REC system where you can unlock every ship for the combat module by gameplay, and this P2W nonsense still comes up. So what is it with the anti-SC posters, is it just ignorance, or simply a badly disguised agenda they are running? Because it can´t possibly be anything else.
And let´s just completely ignore the biggest part they are working on to finish, the single player campaign where your pledge gives you nothing but the naked game, and you´ll get whatever ship the missions require you to fly.
If you have pvp and leaderboards you have a win / lose system, if the leaderboards are dominated by ships that only certain people have access to because they spent more money or subscribed then you have a P2W argument - granted that has been fixed since today.
No. You just don't get it. I don't care if it's in the funding phase or not, that is completely irrelevant to me. I guess you could call it "ethical crowdfunding" I don't agree with mass asset selling. They could still have made a massive amount of funding from only selling starter ships, 800,000 * $45 is still $36 million, If 50% of backers bought a 2nd starter ship that's still $54 million. There are many ways they could do this crowdfunding without selling so much of the final game. It stinks and is completely excessive.
Because the game is not released. When it is released the pay cash for in-game items deal will be eliminated. So yeah, explain how it -- will be -- pay to win. This is the alpha. It is simply a means to crowd fund the game while it is in development. How is this hard to understand? It is a thank you to those who do invest, but no one has to but then it also wouldn't be developed. You can wait and pay for the release version if you don't want to crowd fund the game and be rewarded with a ship to get a sneak peak with.
Do you honestly believe that CR is just going to cut the head off his cash cow when the game launches? I will be seriously surprised if he does cause the name of the game atm is greed.
oh right, so if EA gives 250 million $ budget to Bioware to make SWTOR or Mass Effect X it´s NOT GREED.
If backers give a 78 million $ budget to CIG to make Star Citizen, it´s GREED.
right.
right.
you totally get the concept of crowdfunding a product getting made, slowclap.
Oh I get how crowd funding works since I have backed games like pillars of eternity. I just think you're blind to any wrong that CR is committing.
can you point out in my post where I said that EA isn't greedy? No, can't find it? Oh that's right you like to make leaps in logic in order to try to sound like you know what you are talking about.
Like I said to another poster do you seriously think CR is going to cut the head off his cash cow when the game releases? He's already shown he has no problem catering to whales so my bs alarm has been going off for a while now.
It was a good attempt though but I will still have to give you a failing grade for the misuse of logic and avoidance of facts so far
And let´s just completely ignore the biggest part they are working on to finish, the single player campaign where your pledge gives you nothing but the naked game, and you´ll get whatever ship the missions require you to fly.
Technically your pledge gets you episode 1, also episode 2 if you backed before 6 mil. Anyone else will have to shell out for episodes 2 and 3 if they want to see how the story continues
And let´s just completely ignore the biggest part they are working on to finish, the single player campaign where your pledge gives you nothing but the naked game, and you´ll get whatever ship the missions require you to fly.
Technically your pledge gets you episode 1, also episode 2 if you backed before 6 mil. Anyone else will have to shell out for episodes 2 and 3 if they want to see how the story continues
*** gasp ***
CIG wants MONEY for the NEXT mission disk (about as large and as developed as a Triple-A game), after they gave most of the backers a Triple-A game with 70 missions AND another Triple-A game on top of that of about the same size.
If you have pvp and leaderboards you have a win / lose system, if the leaderboards are dominated by ships that only certain people have access to because they spent more money or subscribed then you have a P2W argument - granted that has been fixed since today.
No. You just don't get it. I don't care if it's in the funding phase or not, that is completely irrelevant to me. I guess you could call it "ethical crowdfunding" I don't agree with mass asset selling. They could still have made a massive amount of funding from only selling starter ships, 800,000 * $45 is still $36 million, If 50% of backers bought a 2nd starter ship that's still $54 million. There are many ways they could do this crowdfunding without selling so much of the final game. It stinks and is completely excessive.
>>>granted that has been fixed since today.>>> ORLY ?! Who would have guessed ?!
And who will do the mass testing and balancing of ALL THE REST OF THE SHIPS from a players perspective, when everyone only can test starter ships ?
And if the funding phase is as irrelevant to everyone else as it is to you, there would not BE a game !
There are leaderboards for balancing .. this is NOT World of Tanks or DOTA ! If during testing half of your weapons are offline - as has happened recently - does that mean all the pilots with that ship suck because they are not on the leaderboard ? EVERYONE has access now to the ships that are on the top of the leaderboards IF they are actively testing. And they do not need any real world money for it AT ALL. If one ship and one equipment set dominates the leaderboards, it means it will be nerfed. THAT is the purpose of this leaderboard. T.E.S.T.I.N.G. ! B.A.L.A.N.C.I.N.G. !
And let´s just completely ignore the biggest part they are working on to finish, the single player campaign where your pledge gives you nothing but the naked game, and you´ll get whatever ship the missions require you to fly.
Technically your pledge gets you episode 1, also episode 2 if you backed before 6 mil. Anyone else will have to shell out for episodes 2 and 3 if they want to see how the story continues
*** gasp ***
CIG wants MONEY for the NEXT mission disk (about as large and as developed as a Triple-A game), after they gave most of the backers a Triple-A game with 70 missions AND another Triple-A game on top of that of about the same size.
CIG .... you greedy bastards !!!
Have fun
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
You get EVERYTHING that was promised in the Kickstarter campaign. And more.
But for those that did not get it the first time, let me repost what Episode 1-3 means:
"From a recent Chris Roberts message (10 for the chairman)
"They’re splitting SQ42 into a trilogy, Episode 1 (this year) has ~ 70 Wing Commander style missions, some flying, some FPS, etc etc. These might be a fluid story spanning 3 missions, there are 21 chapters or so that has a segmented mission structure. It should be ~ 20 hours of gameplay with an awesome cast. Episode 2 is “Behind Enemy Lines”, which will be free for those that backed before 20mil. There may be more “rogue, han solo style” epsiodes as we go down the track."
"The hope from the start has been that Squadron 42 would kick off a whole series of games, much like the 'main series' Wing Commanders back in the day... while the Star Citizen persistent universe would kick off at an unspecified point in the future and continue to evolve in its own way. Once we've built the technology and evolved the world and balanced everything, there's unlimited stories to tell. I know we talked about additional Squadron 42s early on, because we joked about calling them Squadron 43 and Squadron 44 back in the early days
All you're seeing now is that we're trying to figure out the best way to express that. Squadron 43 and Squadron 44 are good joke names, but they don't really make sense... it's more reasonable to brand 'Squadron 42' as a series rather than something like 'Squadron 42 2.' The only real 'change' here is that Behind Enemy Lines isn't a Secret Missions-style mission disk anymore... it's going to be the next part in the saga. And at least some of our backers get a great bonus, an additional AAA single player game because they backed early.
As for estimated hours to complete the game, I can only say... I really hate trying to quantify those kinds of estimates. It's a game with no one way to play it that we haven't finished yet. Is that 20 hours to play straight through? 50 hours to play every branching mission? To bring it back to Wing Commander: knowing the game today, I can finish the Vega campaign in about two hours. But in 1990, when Wing Commander was new, that took me at least a month of hard-fought battles. So if somebody asks me how long it takes to play Wing Commander, what do I say? There's a reason they don't put those kinds of estimates on box copy.
I will say - Squadron 42 is not any smaller than it was the day we set out to make it. Content isn't being cut or subdivided or parceled out for extra revenue or anything like that. If we mentioned 20 hours in one interview and 50 in another it's because someone was having two different thoughts about the same amount of content... it's in no way indicating that we've removed anything from the initial pitch, because we absolutely haven't."
"To clarify - there's no content being hidden away for a different release, we're just looking to the future. What's being referred to as 'episode 1' is really 'game 1,' with all the missions and features promised in the crowdfunding campaign. We've expanded the original mission disk (which early backers already have) into a comparable second campaign, and then have plans for a third. Squadron 42 is Wing Commander I, Behind Enemy Lines is Wing Commander II and the as-of-yet-untitled third campaign is Wing Commander 3."
"This has just gotten silly. So many mixed up confused opinions about something that is so easy to grasp.
Here we go. This is whats happening: CIG is creating a trilogy of stand alone games. They are:
First Game SQUADRON 42 ----Begins its release at the end of this year. ----Will be released in stages so we can begin playing it earlier. ----A stand alone campaign setting the stage for Star Citizen. ----Everyone who pledged a game package will get it. ----It includes everything originally planned for, plus more.
Second Game Behind Enemy Lines ----Release date not announced ----Used to be envisioned as an expansion pack for SQ42 but with CIG's financial success it got re-envisioned as a complete game. ----Free to those who backed before 6 Million. For sale as a complete stand alone game to anyone else. ----Will probably be released as a whole complete game instead of in stages. ----It continues the story-line of Squadron 42, but is a separate game unto itself. ----It does not require Squadron 42 to install.
Third Game Title to be determined ----Release date not announced. ----Will be released as a complete stand alone game. ----Is not an expansion pack or add on to Squadron 42. It only continues the story-line into its third part. ----Is available for purchase as a complete game to anyone. ----Does not require Squadron 42 or Behind Enemy Lines to install.
I hope this helps
CIG's old plan = Squadron 42 + some expansion packs.
CIG's new plan = Three stand alone games: Squadron 42 (all of it), Behind Enemy Lines, and Third unnamed title."
Preface: I am a backer and i have spent about $160. Which was a lot of money for me. I donated plasma for a month in order to have the excess money. But it was something I wanted so I worked for it.
I am so tired of people arguing about p2w. Mmorpgs are a business. If these dudes and ladies didn't make money doing this then it wouldn't happen. People have to make money. And just like me with my job (and probably you if you're being honest) you would like to make more money for the work you do. If CIG or any other company create a game and it's p2w then that's their perogative. We need to stop thinking that we need to be treated fairly and everyone deserves to have equal treatment in a transactional model of business ( I provide you money in return for service). If you don't like it then don't spend money. But expecting the company to change their business model because you don't like it is a little naive, because they're just going to keep appealing to the people who will pay.
I think the people who spent $1000s to support the project should get an advantage. I even think it's fair if they get an advantage that others cannot attain without spending money. It seems like a no brainer, common sense thing that people who are willing to spend more get better treatment. That's how the world works. I am aware of this being someone who falls into the lower middle class. But I know that's how things work and if I want more then I need to work for it.
What I don't approve of is if a company shows a lack of integrity with the model. If you say spending X will get you Y and Z then you better deliver Y and Z. (I'm looking at you Archeage)
I would say the majority of this debate comes from a non definitive definition of p2w or people shaping their own definition of pay 2 win to fit a negative stereotype they would like to perpetuate.
TL:DR: Get over it because they ain't changing as long as the cash is flowing.
This is a serious question, because I keep seeing people insist it is not just because you will not be able to buy the ships with RL money after it releases. The problem is you CAN buy them now with RL money. How is it people spending $1000's of dollars on ships today are not paying to win from day 1 while the rest of us are flying around in our poor man newbie ships? If you are more powerful from day 1 you will be more powerful day 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and so on. So I can eventually afford to buy your $1000 ship in game after a couple months of playing, by then where is the guy who started with that ship?
Seriously, explain to me how this is not pay to win without the "no one is forcing you to buy anything" cliche, and without telling me everything will be available in game for game currency. I get both of those concepts, but it walks and talks like a duck, to me it is a duck. Convince me otherwise please, because so far I don't get it.
Same way planet side 2 is not pay to win.. i can give you the best ships with best weapons in game and you can still suck if you do not have. good twitch combat skills, good flying skills, a group of people to play with.
sure unlock everything in game drop the $20000 to get everything day one. you will still suck, you will still die, you will still lose all your ships and have to wait for the community to build one for your lifetime insurance to replace.
granted there will be some players who do have those skills sets, are great at twitch combat, are great with a joystick, and have loads of cash, and have lots of friends that have those same skills. but it is going to be very few and far between. not enough to ruin it for everyone.
Plus since replacement ships must be built to replace ones lost, those using multi crewed ships will mostly get screwed day 1 when they bring them out, by trolls like me who will gather as many players as possible to destroy any $500usd or more ship non stop for the first 4 days
Preface: I am a backer and i have spent about $160. Which was a lot of money for me. I donated plasma for a month in order to have the excess money. But it was something I wanted so I worked for it.
I am so tired of people arguing about p2w. Mmorpgs are a business. If these dudes and ladies didn't make money doing this then it wouldn't happen. People have to make money. And just like me with my job (and probably you if you're being honest) you would like to make more money for the work you do. If CIG or any other company create a game and it's p2w then that's their perogative. We need to stop thinking that we need to be treated fairly and everyone deserves to have equal treatment in a transactional model of business ( I provide you money in return for service). If you don't like it then don't spend money. But expecting the company to change their business model because you don't like it is a little naive, because they're just going to keep appealing to the people who will pay.
I think the people who spent $1000s to support the project should get an advantage. I even think it's fair if they get an advantage that others cannot attain without spending money. It seems like a no brainer, common sense thing that people who are willing to spend more get better treatment. That's how the world works. I am aware of this being someone who falls into the lower middle class. But I know that's how things work and if I want more then I need to work for it.
Wow, donating blood is serious business, you seem to be a true fan of this game. But you should not mix up things. If you support the game with your hard earned money so that it can come to life one day is one thing. But if the company is selling donators, crowdfunders or whatever you would like to call them ingame power for money, that is p2w. If we don´t talk about things like alpha access or titles or cosmetic items as incentives for backers but instead ships, armor, weapons etc. with stats, sorry this isn´t justifiable by any means.
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
You get EVERYTHING that was promised in the Kickstarter campaign. And more.
SNIP
Of course you get more.....if you are willing to pay for it of course.
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
You get EVERYTHING that was promised in the Kickstarter campaign. And more.
SNIP
Of course you get more.....if you are willing to pay for it of course.
Ok, I'll counter that with "tell me a game where you can't get 'more' by paying into it?"
I think it goes without saying that you get extra stuff, but to "win" is pushing it and you could make that assertion quite easily about every single game out there.
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
You get EVERYTHING that was promised in the Kickstarter campaign. And more.
SNIP
Of course you get more.....if you are willing to pay for it of course.
May you can read the ***SNIPped*** part for once ......
then you would know that what you posted is false w.r.t. to the Squadron 42 part of Star Citizen.
This is a serious question, because I keep seeing people insist it is not just because you will not be able to buy the ships with RL money after it releases. The problem is you CAN buy them now with RL money. How is it people spending $1000's of dollars on ships today are not paying to win from day 1 while the rest of us are flying around in our poor man newbie ships? If you are more powerful from day 1 you will be more powerful day 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and so on. So I can eventually afford to buy your $1000 ship in game after a couple months of playing, by then where is the guy who started with that ship?
Seriously, explain to me how this is not pay to win without the "no one is forcing you to buy anything" cliche, and without telling me everything will be available in game for game currency. I get both of those concepts, but it walks and talks like a duck, to me it is a duck. Convince me otherwise please, because so far I don't get it.
Here is what I think. People saying its not P2W because you only paying to help develop the game. They have made so much money selling ships, I am calling it now. It wont stop after launch.
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
You get EVERYTHING that was promised in the Kickstarter campaign. And more.
SNIP
Of course you get more.....if you are willing to pay for it of course.
Ok, I'll counter that with "tell me a game where you can't get 'more' by paying into it?"
I think it goes without saying that you get extra stuff, but to "win" is pushing it and you could make that assertion quite easily about every single game out there.
Well yeah it goes without saying you get extra stuff if you pay, otherwise there would be little incentive to do so. If you take 2 people with the same skill level but one person is a broke college student and the other is a extremely rich college student then wouldn't you think the rich college student would be winning by being able to buy whatever they want from the cash shop and having the gear/ship advantage?
Originally posted by Erillion
Originally posted by Kefo
Originally posted by Erillion
Originally posted by Kefo
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
You get EVERYTHING that was promised in the Kickstarter campaign. And more.
SNIP
Of course you get more.....if you are willing to pay for it of course.
May you can read the ***SNIPped*** part for once ......
then you would know that what you posted is false w.r.t. to the Squadron 42 part of Star Citizen.
Have fun
I did read the snipped part, I read it before you posted it because I do actually visit the SC forums. I know that comes as a shock to you but I do actually read other forums. I understand that you get Squadron 42 as a pledge reward and that before a certain certain funding milestone was reached you were able to get behind enemy lines which was 16 missions.
Originally planned was backers at a certain level get squadron 42, not squadron 42 episode 1 and I am sure they were not expecting to have to pay for a episode 3. If CR just came out and said you will get the first installment of squadron 42 then no problem but he didn't.
As it stands now there are multiple things being said and people are still somewhat confused after Ben made his clarification post. So yes you can argue its going to be 3 fully fleshed out games but I still feel like its a nickel and diming practice
Hmmm, about the "Pay-to-Win" thing, it's a bit complicated matter. Thing is, although potentially you can have PvP everywhere, there are several methods for dimisnish the risk if that's something you don't want (Stay in a safe sector for a while, set the "PvP slider" to the minimum, have low emissions on the ship). Also PvP, although important, it's not the primarily focus of the game, so the "What do you win?" question is more subjective, and I think the answer to that would be something like "depends on your goals", a subjective answer as well. There's no something like endgame (except maybe for some people ger the ship or get a bigger one) as you can do everything right at start. Of course, taking down a full pirate station with the starter ship is impossible, but because it's stupid. It's like to take a city with a jeep and a pistol.
As everything could be obtained just playing the game with ingame currency, the key here is the time required for get it. If ii's not too much, then this would be just "Pay-for-advantage". An advantage that could be closed just in a week, for example, it's not big deal as long as you plan to play the game more than a week :-)
And about the campaign, it was said that more expansions (or mission disks) would come. One would be the "Behind the enemy lines" and others could be about other themes, like pirates or aliens, so the real news here is that "Behind the enemy lines" would follow the campaign of "Squadron 42" and there will be a third one that will close the whole arc.
The promise was to get a campaign "Squadron 42" with nearly 70 missions. If that is delivered, then it's ok.
And about the time required to complete it, hmmm, some times are too diferent. Some people complete Mass Effect 2 in 20 hours. I needed a bit more of 50 hours the first time, so... guess the best would be they give a minimum. If the minimum is around 15-20 hours the duration it's ok, as surely I will take nearly triple that that to complete it.
TL:DR: You can't get the best with real money. Only by playing. If the time required for get the things you want it's not too much, this would be "Pay-to-get-Advantage". If the advantage is a week, for example, not big deal.
About the campaign, I see it as Starcraft 2. Three campaigns, big ones. One game and two expansions. Same here.
And let´s just completely ignore the biggest part they are working on to finish, the single player campaign where your pledge gives you nothing but the naked game, and you´ll get whatever ship the missions require you to fly.
Technically your pledge gets you episode 1, also episode 2 if you backed before 6 mil. Anyone else will have to shell out for episodes 2 and 3 if they want to see how the story continues
*** gasp ***
CIG wants MONEY for the NEXT mission disk (about as large and as developed as a Triple-A game), after they gave most of the backers a Triple-A game with 70 missions AND another Triple-A game on top of that of about the same size.
CIG .... you greedy bastards !!!
Have fun
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
ha ha there it is, the next made up drama that isn´t one!
There will be THREE SEPERATE GAMES, nothing changed, they plan ahead to make a trilogy like Wing Commander I, II, III
I. Squadron 42 is Squadron 42
2. Behind Enemy Lines will not only be a "mission disk" but expaneded to be a full game, like Squadron 42
3. Is untitled, but another full length single player campaign
Of course the naysayers have something new to jump on - CIG holding back content! They split it up to charge three times! LOL
Needed any more proof for the anti-SC agenda, here it is. More heaps of disinfo BS stacking up.
Comments
only by the made up definition in your fantasy, for whatever reason or agenda.
It´s funny how bashers of an alpha build either say the game doesn´t exist but at the same time say it´s P2W.
So how is winning for you in a non existent game, that´s the real question.
You anti-SC promoters really should scramble together and decide on one strategy. Since the game is coming together now, P2W seems to be the new hip attack point, and it´s as nonsensical as the others were.
Anti-SC promoters... right. God forbid pople just dislike the way CIG have been monetising every little thing or that they're selling in-game assets. I don't like it in any other game and I don't like here regardless if it's "crowdfunding".
Or that they flip-flop over so many things giving the impression that they have really shitty ideas and only change because of how much people protest about them.
But no, everyone should keep quiet and place complete blind trust in the devs and rest assured it will all be ok. We've seen how that works out many times before.
and you don´t get the fundamental logical fallacy that keeps getting thrown around of CIG "monetizing" anything.
The game development gets funded while the development is in progress, so guess what, the actual monetization of the finished product HASN`T EVEN STARTED because neither the game nor the monetization are set in stone and ready for launch.
Again I ask if EA gives 250 Million $ to Bioware for SWTOR, is that "monetization"?
SC is not finished, there is nothing to win, only to test mechanics, report bugs and give feedback, when neither the PU nor matchmaking mechanics are implemented.
You can complain all day long that they are offering basic ship classes for pledges, with disclaimers everywhere that everything will be obtainable in game for credits, but why not keep up calling it P2W all day long, until the next made up "concern" gains popularity.
Now they just designed, programmed and implemented the REC system where you can unlock every ship for the combat module by gameplay, and this P2W nonsense still comes up. So what is it with the anti-SC posters, is it just ignorance, or simply a badly disguised agenda they are running? Because it can´t possibly be anything else.
And let´s just completely ignore the biggest part they are working on to finish, the single player campaign where your pledge gives you nothing but the naked game, and you´ll get whatever ship the missions require you to fly.
If you have pvp and leaderboards you have a win / lose system, if the leaderboards are dominated by ships that only certain people have access to because they spent more money or subscribed then you have a P2W argument - granted that has been fixed since today.
No. You just don't get it. I don't care if it's in the funding phase or not, that is completely irrelevant to me. I guess you could call it "ethical crowdfunding" I don't agree with mass asset selling. They could still have made a massive amount of funding from only selling starter ships, 800,000 * $45 is still $36 million, If 50% of backers bought a 2nd starter ship that's still $54 million. There are many ways they could do this crowdfunding without selling so much of the final game. It stinks and is completely excessive.
Redsalt... the other salt.
Oh I get how crowd funding works since I have backed games like pillars of eternity. I just think you're blind to any wrong that CR is committing.
can you point out in my post where I said that EA isn't greedy? No, can't find it? Oh that's right you like to make leaps in logic in order to try to sound like you know what you are talking about.
Like I said to another poster do you seriously think CR is going to cut the head off his cash cow when the game releases? He's already shown he has no problem catering to whales so my bs alarm has been going off for a while now.
It was a good attempt though but I will still have to give you a failing grade for the misuse of logic and avoidance of facts so far
Technically your pledge gets you episode 1, also episode 2 if you backed before 6 mil. Anyone else will have to shell out for episodes 2 and 3 if they want to see how the story continues
*** gasp ***
CIG wants MONEY for the NEXT mission disk (about as large and as developed as a Triple-A game), after they gave most of the backers a Triple-A game with 70 missions AND another Triple-A game on top of that of about the same size.
CIG .... you greedy bastards !!!
Have fun
>>>granted that has been fixed since today.>>> ORLY ?! Who would have guessed ?!
And who will do the mass testing and balancing of ALL THE REST OF THE SHIPS from a players perspective, when everyone only can test starter ships ?
And if the funding phase is as irrelevant to everyone else as it is to you, there would not BE a game !
There are leaderboards for balancing .. this is NOT World of Tanks or DOTA ! If during testing half of your weapons are offline - as has happened recently - does that mean all the pilots with that ship suck because they are not on the leaderboard ? EVERYONE has access now to the ships that are on the top of the leaderboards IF they are actively testing. And they do not need any real world money for it AT ALL. If one ship and one equipment set dominates the leaderboards, it means it will be nerfed. THAT is the purpose of this leaderboard. T.E.S.T.I.N.G. ! B.A.L.A.N.C.I.N.G. !
Have fun
So all the people who backed on kickstarter at certain pledge levels where it says digital download of squadron 42 will be getting all 3 episodes? No? Thought so
You get EVERYTHING that was promised in the Kickstarter campaign. And more.
But for those that did not get it the first time, let me repost what Episode 1-3 means:
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"From a recent Chris Roberts message (10 for the chairman)
"They’re splitting SQ42 into a trilogy, Episode 1 (this year) has ~ 70 Wing Commander style missions, some flying, some FPS, etc etc. These might be a fluid story spanning 3 missions, there are 21 chapters or so that has a segmented mission structure. It should be ~ 20 hours of gameplay with an awesome cast. Episode 2 is “Behind Enemy Lines”, which will be free for those that backed before 20mil. There may be more “rogue, han solo style” epsiodes as we go down the track."
Have fun
Update with CIG Clarifications:
CIG Ben Lesnick | wcloaf said:
[source]
"The hope from the start has been that Squadron 42 would kick off a whole series of games, much like the 'main series' Wing Commanders back in the day... while the Star Citizen persistent universe would kick off at an unspecified point in the future and continue to evolve in its own way. Once we've built the technology and evolved the world and balanced everything, there's unlimited stories to tell. I know we talked about additional Squadron 42s early on, because we joked about calling them Squadron 43 and Squadron 44 back in the early days
All you're seeing now is that we're trying to figure out the best way to express that. Squadron 43 and Squadron 44 are good joke names, but they don't really make sense... it's more reasonable to brand 'Squadron 42' as a series rather than something like 'Squadron 42 2.' The only real 'change' here is that Behind Enemy Lines isn't a Secret Missions-style mission disk anymore... it's going to be the next part in the saga. And at least some of our backers get a great bonus, an additional AAA single player game because they backed early.
As for estimated hours to complete the game, I can only say... I really hate trying to quantify those kinds of estimates. It's a game with no one way to play it that we haven't finished yet. Is that 20 hours to play straight through? 50 hours to play every branching mission? To bring it back to Wing Commander: knowing the game today, I can finish the Vega campaign in about two hours. But in 1990, when Wing Commander was new, that took me at least a month of hard-fought battles. So if somebody asks me how long it takes to play Wing Commander, what do I say? There's a reason they don't put those kinds of estimates on box copy.
I will say - Squadron 42 is not any smaller than it was the day we set out to make it. Content isn't being cut or subdivided or parceled out for extra revenue or anything like that. If we mentioned 20 hours in one interview and 50 in another it's because someone was having two different thoughts about the same amount of content... it's in no way indicating that we've removed anything from the initial pitch, because we absolutely haven't."
"To clarify - there's no content being hidden away for a different release, we're just looking to the future. What's being referred to as 'episode 1' is really 'game 1,' with all the missions and features promised in the crowdfunding campaign. We've expanded the original mission disk (which early backers already have) into a comparable second campaign, and then have plans for a third. Squadron 42 is Wing Commander I, Behind Enemy Lines is Wing Commander II and the as-of-yet-untitled third campaign is Wing Commander 3."
Summary from a forum poster:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/249912/squadron-42-episode-1-included-eh-responses-from-ben-length-scope-explained/p1
"This has just gotten silly. So many mixed up confused opinions about something that is so easy to grasp.
Here we go. This is whats happening: CIG is creating a trilogy of stand alone games. They are:
First Game
SQUADRON 42
----Begins its release at the end of this year.
----Will be released in stages so we can begin playing it earlier.
----A stand alone campaign setting the stage for Star Citizen.
----Everyone who pledged a game package will get it.
----It includes everything originally planned for, plus more.
Second Game
Behind Enemy Lines
----Release date not announced
----Used to be envisioned as an expansion pack for SQ42 but with CIG's financial success it got re-envisioned as a complete game.
----Free to those who backed before 6 Million. For sale as a complete stand alone game to anyone else.
----Will probably be released as a whole complete game instead of in stages.
----It continues the story-line of Squadron 42, but is a separate game unto itself.
----It does not require Squadron 42 to install.
Third Game
Title to be determined
----Release date not announced.
----Will be released as a complete stand alone game.
----Is not an expansion pack or add on to Squadron 42. It only continues the story-line into its third part.
----Is available for purchase as a complete game to anyone.
----Does not require Squadron 42 or Behind Enemy Lines to install.
I hope this helps
CIG's old plan = Squadron 42 + some expansion packs.
CIG's new plan = Three stand alone games: Squadron 42 (all of it), Behind Enemy Lines, and Third unnamed title."
***********************************************************************************************
Have fun
Preface: I am a backer and i have spent about $160. Which was a lot of money for me. I donated plasma for a month in order to have the excess money. But it was something I wanted so I worked for it.
I am so tired of people arguing about p2w. Mmorpgs are a business. If these dudes and ladies didn't make money doing this then it wouldn't happen. People have to make money. And just like me with my job (and probably you if you're being honest) you would like to make more money for the work you do. If CIG or any other company create a game and it's p2w then that's their perogative. We need to stop thinking that we need to be treated fairly and everyone deserves to have equal treatment in a transactional model of business ( I provide you money in return for service). If you don't like it then don't spend money. But expecting the company to change their business model because you don't like it is a little naive, because they're just going to keep appealing to the people who will pay.
I think the people who spent $1000s to support the project should get an advantage. I even think it's fair if they get an advantage that others cannot attain without spending money. It seems like a no brainer, common sense thing that people who are willing to spend more get better treatment. That's how the world works. I am aware of this being someone who falls into the lower middle class. But I know that's how things work and if I want more then I need to work for it.
What I don't approve of is if a company shows a lack of integrity with the model. If you say spending X will get you Y and Z then you better deliver Y and Z. (I'm looking at you Archeage)
I would say the majority of this debate comes from a non definitive definition of p2w or people shaping their own definition of pay 2 win to fit a negative stereotype they would like to perpetuate.
TL:DR: Get over it because they ain't changing as long as the cash is flowing.
Same way planet side 2 is not pay to win.. i can give you the best ships with best weapons in game and you can still suck if you do not have. good twitch combat skills, good flying skills, a group of people to play with.
sure unlock everything in game drop the $20000 to get everything day one. you will still suck, you will still die, you will still lose all your ships and have to wait for the community to build one for your lifetime insurance to replace.
granted there will be some players who do have those skills sets, are great at twitch combat, are great with a joystick, and have loads of cash, and have lots of friends that have those same skills. but it is going to be very few and far between. not enough to ruin it for everyone.
Plus since replacement ships must be built to replace ones lost, those using multi crewed ships will mostly get screwed day 1 when they bring them out, by trolls like me who will gather as many players as possible to destroy any $500usd or more ship non stop for the first 4 days
Wow, donating blood is serious business, you seem to be a true fan of this game. But you should not mix up things. If you support the game with your hard earned money so that it can come to life one day is one thing. But if the company is selling donators, crowdfunders or whatever you would like to call them ingame power for money, that is p2w. If we don´t talk about things like alpha access or titles or cosmetic items as incentives for backers but instead ships, armor, weapons etc. with stats, sorry this isn´t justifiable by any means.
Of course you get more.....if you are willing to pay for it of course.
Ok, I'll counter that with "tell me a game where you can't get 'more' by paying into it?"
I think it goes without saying that you get extra stuff, but to "win" is pushing it and you could make that assertion quite easily about every single game out there.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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May you can read the ***SNIPped*** part for once ......
then you would know that what you posted is false w.r.t. to the Squadron 42 part of Star Citizen.
Have fun
I respect your personal opinion that this game is pay to win and that this behavior is bad.
I have a different opinion.
Lets wait til a few months after launch and see what happens, shall we ?
Have fun
Seriously ? Have a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes
By your definition, any EARLY ACCESS game is pay to win, even without cash shop or other ways to gain bits for $$.
I did read the snipped part, I read it before you posted it because I do actually visit the SC forums. I know that comes as a shock to you but I do actually read other forums. I understand that you get Squadron 42 as a pledge reward and that before a certain certain funding milestone was reached you were able to get behind enemy lines which was 16 missions.
Originally planned was backers at a certain level get squadron 42, not squadron 42 episode 1 and I am sure they were not expecting to have to pay for a episode 3. If CR just came out and said you will get the first installment of squadron 42 then no problem but he didn't.
As it stands now there are multiple things being said and people are still somewhat confused after Ben made his clarification post. So yes you can argue its going to be 3 fully fleshed out games but I still feel like its a nickel and diming practice
Hmmm, about the "Pay-to-Win" thing, it's a bit complicated matter. Thing is, although potentially you can have PvP everywhere, there are several methods for dimisnish the risk if that's something you don't want (Stay in a safe sector for a while, set the "PvP slider" to the minimum, have low emissions on the ship). Also PvP, although important, it's not the primarily focus of the game, so the "What do you win?" question is more subjective, and I think the answer to that would be something like "depends on your goals", a subjective answer as well. There's no something like endgame (except maybe for some people ger the ship or get a bigger one) as you can do everything right at start. Of course, taking down a full pirate station with the starter ship is impossible, but because it's stupid. It's like to take a city with a jeep and a pistol.
As everything could be obtained just playing the game with ingame currency, the key here is the time required for get it. If ii's not too much, then this would be just "Pay-for-advantage". An advantage that could be closed just in a week, for example, it's not big deal as long as you plan to play the game more than a week :-)
And about the campaign, it was said that more expansions (or mission disks) would come. One would be the "Behind the enemy lines" and others could be about other themes, like pirates or aliens, so the real news here is that "Behind the enemy lines" would follow the campaign of "Squadron 42" and there will be a third one that will close the whole arc.
The promise was to get a campaign "Squadron 42" with nearly 70 missions. If that is delivered, then it's ok.
And about the time required to complete it, hmmm, some times are too diferent. Some people complete Mass Effect 2 in 20 hours. I needed a bit more of 50 hours the first time, so... guess the best would be they give a minimum. If the minimum is around 15-20 hours the duration it's ok, as surely I will take nearly triple that that to complete it.
TL:DR: You can't get the best with real money. Only by playing. If the time required for get the things you want it's not too much, this would be "Pay-to-get-Advantage". If the advantage is a week, for example, not big deal.
About the campaign, I see it as Starcraft 2. Three campaigns, big ones. One game and two expansions. Same here.
ha ha there it is, the next made up drama that isn´t one!
There will be THREE SEPERATE GAMES, nothing changed, they plan ahead to make a trilogy like Wing Commander I, II, III
I. Squadron 42 is Squadron 42
2. Behind Enemy Lines will not only be a "mission disk" but expaneded to be a full game, like Squadron 42
3. Is untitled, but another full length single player campaign
Of course the naysayers have something new to jump on - CIG holding back content! They split it up to charge three times! LOL
Needed any more proof for the anti-SC agenda, here it is. More heaps of disinfo BS stacking up.
Funnily enough you used to be quite happy claiming the Elite devs were ripping people off because they were charging for expansions...
The initial release plans for SQ42 were poorly explained, perhaps people haven't seen the follow-up explanations.