Yes it is P2W. It's pretty straightforward you pay money, you have an advantage, which they do.
With all due respect, if you think small incentives for paying some money such as what theyre offering is P2W then you my friend must have not played many F2P games that offer a much greater advantage in a P2W scenario.
What theyre offering isnt even CLOOOOOOSE to a Pay 2 win scheme. Not a single bonus in that list screams pay to win or any type of massive bonus. Theyre small tiny features. Open your eyes for christ sake. I currently do not play ESO but jesus christ, what have mmo players become if they think these offerings are p2w.... All I can do is laugh.
What about if you are on the dole and the government pays you money for doing nothing each week, but you then use that money to buy things, is life p2w or are you being paid2win or is life then f2p - so confusing all these terms!
Originally posted by DMKano And here we go again - the same argument over what's considered *winning* in a MMO.
Yes, here we go again - the same argument over people taking idioms literally when they're clearly meant to be taken figuratively.
^^ basically that. It's not about winning it's about nullifying what everyone has to go through for a price. P2W used to have a literal meaning, it doesn't any more it has become just that... an idiom, used to label anything giving those who will pay more an easier path.
Probably time for a new term, give P2w it's true meaning back.. buying power
When did it ever have that meaning ? I don't remember using the term for anything other than games like atlantica online , R2Games or a couple other asian grind games. It always have been about buying powers that cannot be bought for ingame currency or time to me.
Buying a maxed out character, exp potion or ingame credit have never been P2W for me and pretty much everyone I game with for the last 18 years. But maybe you had a different experience.
i dont see anything p2w on the OP post. People still get the meaning of p2w wrong in 2015
i would be more inclined to subscribe if they remove the 10% experience gain. The last thing i want in an mmo is reach max lvl faster and move to a different game faster.
One thing I like about TSW is the XP shake you get on subbing. Makes the XP boost completely optional. Also lasts only 60 minutes and has a 16 hr cool down.
See Everquest 2 Subscription benefits below..... So yea ESO is about standard so not sure what the big deal is here. First time playing these types of games?
It's pretty much another form of XP boosters. I don't see what's the big deal.
And besides, why on earth would you whine about people leveling faster in a game that's already out for almost a year and that has numerous people at the level cap anyway?
News flash; you're not going to win the race to be the first level 50/60/whatever. That ship sailed long ago.
God, the pettiness of some people.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
It's pretty much another form of XP boosters. I don't see what's the big deal.
And besides, why on earth would you whine about people leveling faster in a game that's already out for almost a year and that has numerous people at the level cap anyway?
News flash; you're not going to win the race to be the first level 50/60/whatever. That ship sailed long ago.
God, the pettiness of some people.
As the OP pointed out, the xp bonuses will likely translate to champion levels even after hitting level cap.
It's pretty much another form of XP boosters. I don't see what's the big deal.
And besides, why on earth would you whine about people leveling faster in a game that's already out for almost a year and that has numerous people at the level cap anyway?
News flash; you're not going to win the race to be the first level 50/60/whatever. That ship sailed long ago.
God, the pettiness of some people.
As the OP pointed out, the xp bonuses will likely translate to champion levels even after hitting level cap.
And those don't have a cap?
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Did you know that people who preordered have "Rings" that increase XP gain when partied with another person you had the ring with? I didn't have it, but outlevels all my friends that did.
So... would it be better if they keep the sub with everything the way it is now and just let people play it with no sub at a 10% disadvantage?
I think I like that better. Then it'd be easier to see who the whiners are and why they're whining.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So... would it be better if they keep the sub with everything the way it is now and just let people play it with no sub at a 10% disadvantage?
I think I like that better. Then it'd be easier to see who the whiners are and why they're whining.
The reason, I feel, that people are upset is because ESO is trying to double dip now on getting money from people.
It's a buy to play, so you have to buy the game, and if you want to play as efficiently as you can, you have to have a sub now. So that's double dipping. Whereas free to plays with subs, like SWTOR and LOTRO, its a free to play game. So it isn't double dipping.
Even GW2, whom has exp boosts and the like in their cash shop doesn't force you to pay a subscription every month for the boosts. And i know, many people are going "Huh? It's the exact same thing, so why is it right for one but not the other". And while at first glance it seems the same, distinctions matter and however small they may be, it makes a world of a difference.
Just the same when you kill in self defense vs kill in cold blood. In both you still killed someone, but the small distinction difference between the two make a world of difference in how its perceived to be good or bad.
So... would it be better if they keep the sub with everything the way it is now and just let people play it with no sub at a 10% disadvantage?
I think I like that better. Then it'd be easier to see who the whiners are and why they're whining.
The reason, I feel, that people are upset is because ESO is trying to double dip now on getting money from people.
It's a buy to play, so you have to buy the game, and if you want to play as efficiently as you can, you have to have a sub now. So that's double dipping. Whereas free to plays with subs, like SWTOR and LOTRO, its a free to play game. So it isn't double dipping.
Even GW2, whom has exp boosts and the like in their cash shop doesn't force you to pay a subscription every month for the boosts. And i know, many people are going "Huh? It's the exact same thing, so why is it right for one but not the other". And while at first glance it seems the same, distinctions matter and however small they may be, it makes a world of a difference.
Just the same when you kill in self defense vs kill in cold blood. In both you still killed someone, but the small distinction difference between the two make a world of difference in how its perceived to be good or bad.
No one is forcing you to do jack shit in ESO either. The 10% boost is laughable.
I have no intention of subbing until subbing makes more sense because there are enough DLC packs that subbing to get access to all of them is cheaper than buying individual ones.
And I also have no intention of whining about those who do sub getting XP 10% faster than me, That is just wanting to have your cake and eat it too at its finest. That people don't understand this is just a sign of how totally fucking spoiled the F2P babies are.
From a F2Pers perspective, the only legitimate things to sell in a cash shop is shit they would never want to buy. If anything they want is in there they just bitch about P2W in forums.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
According to how many people on these forums label p2w, the guy who buys a house next to TESO server farm is the ultimate p2w "whale". Since he is paying to have 2ms latency to TESO server this guy will trump anyone else living beyond 50 miles from the server farm. This is what I'm getting from a lot of these ridiculous accusations of p2w or ASA p4a (pay for advantage) as they are so called. Stop making p2w threads and start posting PAY 4 ADVANTAGE threads just so we can at least separate the two shades of grey. Like someone said earlier in this thread, "You want an even playing field -- pay the damn sub".
The one who have the real advantage is the one not paying a sub to a game that cost $100s of MILLIONS to make. I'll type it out so you can see how many zeros $200,000,000.00!!! A two-hundred MILLION dollar game being accessed for a minimum of $60 without a monthly sub. This is not including the cost to keep up maintenance for the servers or to pay devs for consistent updates to the game AND keep them employed. It's like these guys think MMOs come from some magical tree that produces game titles and you can just come along and pick right off of it to consume. It's no wonder why the MMORPG genre is on the decline.
Pay your $60 like everyone else, leave when you get bored of the game like a big majority of the the second wave of console and b2p PC gamers, or stay. Whether you want to contribute to the cash shop or pay a sub to support the game is totally OPTIONAL. Don't get pissed because some people are paying for first class seats to arrive at the same destination.
The 10% xp boost doesn't mean much if the guy is only playing a few hours a day, or jumping between multiple alts. Anyone who can take the time to play 16 hours a day, everyday til they hit max is going to have the advantage anyway.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
You know, some games even require you to buy expansions to unlock new levels?!?!?!
In WoW I couldn't even get past level 60 unless I PAID for an expansion pack! Why should I have to pay to get more levels?! Totally P2W everyone else was stronger than me because they paid.
Obvious pay to win is obvious!
I mean... buying a game where every is already max level because it's be out for almost a year?! I'm at an obvious disadvantage. They should reset everyone's level to one so it's no pay to win.
In all seriousness, though... Experience boosts only give me pause when it's the start of a game and everyone's level one. Even then there would have to be things such as full loot, world pvp and hard to level without it.
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You know, some games even require you to buy expansions to unlock new levels?!?!?!
In WoW I couldn't even get past level 60 unless I PAID for an expansion pack! Why should I have to pay to get more levels?! Totally P2W everyone else was stronger than me because they paid.
Obvious pay to win is obvious!
I mean... buying a game where every is already max level because it's be out for almost a year?! I'm at an obvious disadvantage. They should reset everyone's level to one so it's no pay to win.
In all seriousness, though... Experience boosts only give me pause when it's the start of a game and everyone's level one. Even then there would have to be things such as full loot, world pvp and hard to level without it.
Yet again, as the OP has said, this will almost certainly apply to champion levels as well which is supposed to be a post level cap progression for players. Kinda like paragon levels in Diablo 3.
Its not hat big of a deal really. Its defentally not enough to be worth subbing for me, unless they add alot of dlc and such. Only really good thing is the gold increase. In these games having money makes everything easier. The other 3 things everyone will cap out on eventually, 10% faster is probally not tyhat big a deal in the long run, besides, its not like this is a 24/7 open pvp full loot game, its mostly pve. I don't play eso, but now that there is no longer a sub requirement if I can find it on sale i'll probally give it a shot. I give it 6 months thou before its completly f2p, if that. Sub requireing mmo's don't seem to make it anymore. The only reason wow has so many subs is it has a big fanbase. Other sub mmo's tend to not last because they just bascally try to copy and paste wow into a new skin, and people who have stopped playing wow wanna play something diffrent, not the exact same game in a diffrent skin. F2P is not always evil, Worse thing i've seen done was the recent H1Z1 fiasco, with the air drops, which as of this message I am posting I heard they are removing them due to massive complaints. Now those airdrops are a biliant example of pay2win, your in a survival games your supposed to scrounge and they gave you the option to throw money to have stuff delivered right too you pretty much. Thankfully its being removed, but the pay2win stigma is already attached to it, so its too late, once you have that p2w stigma its virtually impossible to get it out of peoples minds.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
You know, some games even require you to buy expansions to unlock new levels?!?!?!
In WoW I couldn't even get past level 60 unless I PAID for an expansion pack! Why should I have to pay to get more levels?! Totally P2W everyone else was stronger than me because they paid.
Obvious pay to win is obvious!
I mean... buying a game where every is already max level because it's be out for almost a year?! I'm at an obvious disadvantage. They should reset everyone's level to one so it's no pay to win.
In all seriousness, though... Experience boosts only give me pause when it's the start of a game and everyone's level one. Even then there would have to be things such as full loot, world pvp and hard to level without it.
Yet again, as the OP has said, this will almost certainly apply to champion levels as well which is supposed to be a post level cap progression for players. Kinda like paragon levels in Diablo 3.
Almost certain? So you are bitching about something that might not happen? And so what if it does. Stop begging for free games.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I agree, whether it constitutes flat-out P2W is debatable.
But these tactics are sure as heck more concerning to me than an imperial horse or a mara ring that somehow outraged more than a few people at launch.
I don't see why, you already had a worse power gap with VRs. All they've done is converted VRs into ability/stat points. Just like before, everyone will be at a disadvantage to those who have already maxed out their ability/stat points. On day one or two, people will already be maxed out on points, they always do in every game I have ever played. At only 10%, I doubt anyone but the most hardcore number cruncher would notice the difference.
Its not hat big of a deal really. Its defentally not enough to be worth subbing for me, unless they add alot of dlc and such. Only really good thing is the gold increase. In these games having money makes everything easier. The other 3 things everyone will cap out on eventually, 10% faster is probally not tyhat big a deal in the long run, besides, its not like this is a 24/7 open pvp full loot game, its mostly pve. I don't play eso, but now that there is no longer a sub requirement if I can find it on sale i'll probally give it a shot. I give it 6 months thou before its completly f2p, if that. Sub requireing mmo's don't seem to make it anymore. The only reason wow has so many subs is it has a big fanbase. Other sub mmo's tend to not last because they just bascally try to copy and paste wow into a new skin, and people who have stopped playing wow wanna play something diffrent, not the exact same game in a diffrent skin. F2P is not always evil, Worse thing i've seen done was the recent H1Z1 fiasco, with the air drops, which as of this message I am posting I heard they are removing them due to massive complaints. Now those airdrops are a biliant example of pay2win, your in a survival games your supposed to scrounge and they gave you the option to throw money to have stuff delivered right too you pretty much. Thankfully its being removed, but the pay2win stigma is already attached to it, so its too late, once you have that p2w stigma its virtually impossible to get it out of peoples minds.
Buy to play usually means the client rarely if ever goes on sale.
Comments
With all due respect, if you think small incentives for paying some money such as what theyre offering is P2W then you my friend must have not played many F2P games that offer a much greater advantage in a P2W scenario.
What theyre offering isnt even CLOOOOOOSE to a Pay 2 win scheme. Not a single bonus in that list screams pay to win or any type of massive bonus. Theyre small tiny features. Open your eyes for christ sake. I currently do not play ESO but jesus christ, what have mmo players become if they think these offerings are p2w.... All I can do is laugh.
What about if you are on the dole and the government pays you money for doing nothing each week, but you then use that money to buy things, is life p2w or are you being paid2win or is life then f2p - so confusing all these terms!
You spelled wife wrong.
You stay sassy!
When did it ever have that meaning ? I don't remember using the term for anything other than games like atlantica online , R2Games or a couple other asian grind games. It always have been about buying powers that cannot be bought for ingame currency or time to me.
Buying a maxed out character, exp potion or ingame credit have never been P2W for me and pretty much everyone I game with for the last 18 years. But maybe you had a different experience.
One thing I like about TSW is the XP shake you get on subbing. Makes the XP boost completely optional. Also lasts only 60 minutes and has a 16 hr cool down.
Life is P2W.
See Everquest 2 Subscription benefits below..... So yea ESO is about standard so not sure what the big deal is here. First time playing these types of games?
It's pretty much another form of XP boosters. I don't see what's the big deal.
And besides, why on earth would you whine about people leveling faster in a game that's already out for almost a year and that has numerous people at the level cap anyway?
News flash; you're not going to win the race to be the first level 50/60/whatever. That ship sailed long ago.
God, the pettiness of some people.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
As the OP pointed out, the xp bonuses will likely translate to champion levels even after hitting level cap.
And those don't have a cap?
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Gains are too small for it to be very P2W.
It's just bonus XP and not even that much.
Did you know that people who preordered have "Rings" that increase XP gain when partied with another person you had the ring with? I didn't have it, but outlevels all my friends that did.
Some of the xp bonuses already were in the game.
So... would it be better if they keep the sub with everything the way it is now and just let people play it with no sub at a 10% disadvantage?
I think I like that better. Then it'd be easier to see who the whiners are and why they're whining.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
EXP boosts are not p2w.
Selling overpowered weapons that do not allow others to overcome with sheer skill is p2w.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
The reason, I feel, that people are upset is because ESO is trying to double dip now on getting money from people.
It's a buy to play, so you have to buy the game, and if you want to play as efficiently as you can, you have to have a sub now. So that's double dipping. Whereas free to plays with subs, like SWTOR and LOTRO, its a free to play game. So it isn't double dipping.
Even GW2, whom has exp boosts and the like in their cash shop doesn't force you to pay a subscription every month for the boosts. And i know, many people are going "Huh? It's the exact same thing, so why is it right for one but not the other". And while at first glance it seems the same, distinctions matter and however small they may be, it makes a world of a difference.
Just the same when you kill in self defense vs kill in cold blood. In both you still killed someone, but the small distinction difference between the two make a world of difference in how its perceived to be good or bad.
No one is forcing you to do jack shit in ESO either. The 10% boost is laughable.
I have no intention of subbing until subbing makes more sense because there are enough DLC packs that subbing to get access to all of them is cheaper than buying individual ones.
And I also have no intention of whining about those who do sub getting XP 10% faster than me, That is just wanting to have your cake and eat it too at its finest. That people don't understand this is just a sign of how totally fucking spoiled the F2P babies are.
From a F2Pers perspective, the only legitimate things to sell in a cash shop is shit they would never want to buy. If anything they want is in there they just bitch about P2W in forums.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
According to how many people on these forums label p2w, the guy who buys a house next to TESO server farm is the ultimate p2w "whale". Since he is paying to have 2ms latency to TESO server this guy will trump anyone else living beyond 50 miles from the server farm. This is what I'm getting from a lot of these ridiculous accusations of p2w or ASA p4a (pay for advantage) as they are so called. Stop making p2w threads and start posting PAY 4 ADVANTAGE threads just so we can at least separate the two shades of grey. Like someone said earlier in this thread, "You want an even playing field -- pay the damn sub".
The one who have the real advantage is the one not paying a sub to a game that cost $100s of MILLIONS to make. I'll type it out so you can see how many zeros $200,000,000.00!!! A two-hundred MILLION dollar game being accessed for a minimum of $60 without a monthly sub. This is not including the cost to keep up maintenance for the servers or to pay devs for consistent updates to the game AND keep them employed. It's like these guys think MMOs come from some magical tree that produces game titles and you can just come along and pick right off of it to consume. It's no wonder why the MMORPG genre is on the decline.
Pay your $60 like everyone else, leave when you get bored of the game like a big majority of the the second wave of console and b2p PC gamers, or stay. Whether you want to contribute to the cash shop or pay a sub to support the game is totally OPTIONAL. Don't get pissed because some people are paying for first class seats to arrive at the same destination.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Obvious pay to win is obvious!
I mean... buying a game where every is already max level because it's be out for almost a year?! I'm at an obvious disadvantage. They should reset everyone's level to one so it's no pay to win.
In all seriousness, though... Experience boosts only give me pause when it's the start of a game and everyone's level one. Even then there would have to be things such as full loot, world pvp and hard to level without it.
Yet again, as the OP has said, this will almost certainly apply to champion levels as well which is supposed to be a post level cap progression for players. Kinda like paragon levels in Diablo 3.
Its not hat big of a deal really. Its defentally not enough to be worth subbing for me, unless they add alot of dlc and such. Only really good thing is the gold increase. In these games having money makes everything easier. The other 3 things everyone will cap out on eventually, 10% faster is probally not tyhat big a deal in the long run, besides, its not like this is a 24/7 open pvp full loot game, its mostly pve. I don't play eso, but now that there is no longer a sub requirement if I can find it on sale i'll probally give it a shot. I give it 6 months thou before its completly f2p, if that. Sub requireing mmo's don't seem to make it anymore. The only reason wow has so many subs is it has a big fanbase. Other sub mmo's tend to not last because they just bascally try to copy and paste wow into a new skin, and people who have stopped playing wow wanna play something diffrent, not the exact same game in a diffrent skin. F2P is not always evil, Worse thing i've seen done was the recent H1Z1 fiasco, with the air drops, which as of this message I am posting I heard they are removing them due to massive complaints. Now those airdrops are a biliant example of pay2win, your in a survival games your supposed to scrounge and they gave you the option to throw money to have stuff delivered right too you pretty much. Thankfully its being removed, but the pay2win stigma is already attached to it, so its too late, once you have that p2w stigma its virtually impossible to get it out of peoples minds.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Almost certain? So you are bitching about something that might not happen? And so what if it does. Stop begging for free games.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Welcome to the internet. Deal with it.
I don't see why, you already had a worse power gap with VRs. All they've done is converted VRs into ability/stat points. Just like before, everyone will be at a disadvantage to those who have already maxed out their ability/stat points. On day one or two, people will already be maxed out on points, they always do in every game I have ever played. At only 10%, I doubt anyone but the most hardcore number cruncher would notice the difference.
Buy to play usually means the client rarely if ever goes on sale.