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From the mind of the PVP crowd
Randayn
Member UncommonPosts: 904
All you need to know about the mindset...it's kinda ridiculous...this coming from a guy who worked on UO and now Crowfall...is this what is infesting the MMO world???
"I regret some (but not all) of the outcome," Walton began, going on to explain that the rampant PvP was driving away over 70% of new players to UO. The creation of Trammel doubled the playerbase, but he said that it disenfranchised the hardcore PvPers who now had to prey on each other instead of PvEers.
Comments
Two things:
- Don't you think maybe PvP players simply left because the game wasn't PvP-focused anymore, and they didn't see any love for them from the developer?
I left Aion for that very same reason. They moved away from their PvP focus and made it more PvE, so I left because I knew where the game was going and I was already playing WoW at the time for my PvE fix. So I didn't care for it.
- It annoys me that - while there are so many options out there for PvE - a portion of the PvE crowd still asks for more games to become PvE-friendly/centric.
Why? Why can't these people just pick another existing PvE game instead of spoiling the fun for the people who enjoyed the existing formula/balance of the game?
I'm sort of glad that the PvE market is saturated these days. This makes developers more likely to explore niches and offer some new formulas instead of the same copy-pasta crappy PvE with some PvP tucked quickly on top of it to pretend they like everyone.
Also I could go how PvP is different from ganking, etc. but I don't really give a damn.
There are very few games that are just PvE IMO. Almost every game has instanced PvP and it has a large impact on the way the classes and content for PvE are made.
OP can I just ask what point are you trying to make here? I am a little slow at reading between the lines.
I have no idea where you stand on the issue based on your post.
I just need more information thats all.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
"...but he said that it disenfranchised the hardcore PvPers who now had to prey on each other instead of PvEers."
That's, like, an intentional spin. When pve servers were offered, the population on pvp servers dramatically reduced, so instead of varying degrees of capability, there were only those who wanted pvp and wanted to learn to be better at it, thus ... "hard core"? That's what hard core means?
I don't know what some people label "hard core pvper". It's like they've done something wrong by understanding the format and learning to compete. People who can and do learn to do things well are wrong! People who didn't, or for whatever reason couldn't, learn to do it well are... not hard core pvpers? People who only wanted to pve in a pvp game were right? This is evidenced by the higher number of pve people?
Where does the word "ganking" even come from, a victim complex? I don't understand the mindset of the original carebears. It's like we're all playing baseball and 75% of the people who can't run as fast decide we don't need bases anymore. Everyone needs to change the rules and people who are talented are vilified. What is that?
"Hahaha, what you've learned and accomplished is nothing, because we who didn't, changed the devs minds, lest we'd have 'taken our toys and gone home!' "(but instead of toys it's money, and instead of home it's EQ). But that sucks for the people who did well, because they were robbed of status. Don't diminish that status, either, as it's an accomplishment, as real as laurels for being good at any pastime.
I don't believe it was fair and the way that's worded is gratuitous, appealing to the higher percentage of.. whatever you want to call people who change rules for their own benefit. If indeed that was the intent of the statement, I'm disappointed.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Ok I think I get what side you are coming from. The game was great, let the carebears leave and the PvP players will rule.
I take it then, that the OP is advocating that Trammel was a good thing? Thanks for sorting that out. I think.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
No, it's sicker than that. It insinuates "people who want to be good at something, if it's competitive, are different animals" and further, "in an environment conducive to predatory thought and action, it's funny to sandbag so badly you change the whole formula, thus punishing those who legitimately succeed". It's garbage.
By succeed, I am assuming you mean, "I spent all of my game time learning how to best kill other players".
Do you not admit that probably there were other people playing that just did not care for killing other players? Do you assume that the whole point of the game was to succeed at killing other players? Why should someone learn how to do something when they obviously have no interest in it?
You assume that people left because they were lazy and did not want to learn how to fight. Perhaps they had other reasons and you might have been part of that. How can you assume that all players want or should want to be elite player killers? Even the makers of UO did not assume that would happen. They probably figured that people would all play nice and have a little fun killing other players once and a while. They did not assume that players would make this a way of life and and a specific niche of MMO gaming when they allowed it to happen.
And low and behold the result was the same as it has been to date. A small number of players are allowed to control the game at the expense of the many. Not a formula for success then, and still not a formula today.
Hence the reason PvP and PvE do not mix in an MMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I'd love to see a game where master crafters have an ability that when they target another player who is not a crafter, it forces them to drop what they're doing and start crafting indefinitely or until they get frustrated and log-off...
And RPers... give them an ability to force others to do random RP emotes and slow-walk...
We need a new name for people who wouldn't like being forced to do that since carebear is already taken.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I'm not sure I'm following the thought process in this thread.
in the article he posted, Gordon Walton stated, and I'll break this down.
Several hundred thousand players were playing the game.
They had a ~70% attrition rate of new players. Players left, by the hundreds of thousands. They did not like Open World PvP.
They introduced Trammel. This separated the PvP'ers and the PvE'ers, splitting servers overnight. BUT, this also doubled the already dwindled player base.
Only ~5% of the lost players returned because by his definition, they had divorced the game. Hardcore PvP'ers were then forced to 'feed' upon themselves, they no longer had PvE'ers to prey on, so they quickly lost interest.
I think this actually proves a very valid point, PvP'ers NEED prey in Open World games, without prey, they have no game. So, without the carebears, PvP'ers have nothing.... Irony?
I've known for a long time many, not all, PvP'ers that call themselves hardcore, just want to gank, they don't want a challenge. There are some that desire a challenge, but it's growing more and more rare, most just want to dominate by stomping the weak, or at least, the ones they perceive as weak. i.e Carebears.
LOL it took me a minute to absorb that, but once I did, I had a good long chuckle!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Randayn apparently has huge issues with open world pvp, pvp'ers and apparently that this game is going to have open world pvp.
While I respect that he doesnt' like open world pvp, pvp'ers (though I suspect it's a certain type of pvp'er) and therefore this game, I don't know why he constantly posts about this game?
So I ask you Randayn, "why?"
What is it about this game that compels you to speak out against it numerous times about the same subject?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I suppose on one hand that's a good, and humorous, point.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
No. If you're playing a pvp game, you are a pvper. There is no "pvp player vs pve player" in a pvp game. Talent is a matter of degree on a continuum. There is always someone better, even at the top wherein it becomes a "rock paper scissors" thing. Your identifying or branding of people as predator or prey is not right. In a pvp game, everyone is a predator, everyone is prey.
"Hard core" is subjective. It's objectively meaningless.
You're also making the same mistake of vilifying those who work within a format and learn to do it better. I really wish you wouldn't. It's an intentional spin so as to label some people "victims" and it only makes sense from this odd, emotional standpoint, legitimizing manipulation of ground rules, when the object of any game is to win by the rules, not change them. Changing the rules is not winning. Being jealous is not winning. Punishing the real winner is not winning.
In some cases I agree. If the game is designed where one state is battling nothing but creatures in it's lands than PvE is perfectly ok. But, if a games history is of battling factions then I am all for PvP which would have PvE in the mix.
The older I get the less I enjoy PvP, and choices are always good no matter what!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Also, it needs to be said here, there's a difference between "carebear" and "bambi".
Bambi is a poor pvp participant, generally clueless. Bambis get wrecked until they learn to not be bambis or quit.
Carebear is a pvp participant who complains, for some strange reason, he shouldn't be a pvp participant, but is still playing a pvp game. They're misled politicians, basically. A carebear can turn on a dime and wreck you, while a bambi generally can't.
See, I don't agree with you, on frankly, all points. What if someone started playing the game because of the crafting? Do they have to become better at PvP than the next guy? Even when all they wanted to do was craft?
I'm honestly not vilifying anyone, or at least, not trying to.
I think the other poster had it right, if PvP'ers can force someone to PvP when they choose to, they should give crafters an ability that forces a PvP'er to drop what they are doing and craft non-stop. It's the exact same concept.
And on the other hand, I'm really looking forward to Crowfall... but then, I do enjoy good PVP over anything else in MMOs.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
and having a game artificially produce winners and losers may not be entertaining for some.
The object of any game ... is not to win by the rules .. not video games. Many are made just to entertain. And there is no reason why a devs cannot change their game to entertain more people. In fact, why wouldn't they do that if they can?
I always thought the very idea of playing an MMO was to part of an ever evolving and continuous game where 'Winning" was impossible.
except the people make the CHOICE to pvp by installing and playing a pvp game. the pvpers are still forced to obtain gear initally through pve( or crafting) for gear as well. Just because UO had poor anti griefing mechanics doesn't make the pvp mindset wrong. This is especially true because its the same mindset the pvers and the crafters have. i can think of dozens of cases where people abused the system to get ahead in both pve and economy across mutliple games. Hell the hardcore raiders of today are vilified just as much as the pvpers by the casual masses.
honestly pvp only servers in UO ultimately failed because of poor design, and people just use the pvp mindset as a scapegoat.
I'm... not interested in this. It's for family board game night or peewee baseball league, not for pvp. I'm not sure it's even for pve, really. Whose idea of fun is it to run around, vomitously failing, getting killed by everything and earning no loot or xp? No, no more spin, sir. You play games to accomplish and succeed, and you know it.
I hate to say it, but this is something WoW got right. Starting with PvE and PvP servers from day 1. Where some games go wrong is when they start listening too much to one side or the other more. I believe there is a balance that can be reached, but allowing people to play how they want is VERY important if the game wishes for a large population and more than just a niche following.
Fixed that for you.