I would disagree with you there. The PvE in games today is so simple and the classes are always simplified to make sure they are balanced for PvP. Basically PvE is a side attraction to PvP, Group, and Raid content. There is no challenge in solo PvE. There is no creativity in solo PvE. PvE now consists of following a quests from zone to zone until you are max level with little chance of failure or death. There are no penalties for failing. The outside area content is not a challenge. The classes are mostly just DPS of a different flavor and they don't have much of an identity. Basically if you are playing the game as an RPG where you can explore, have a unique class/abilities, and have a fun place in the world then you are out of luck. I'm not saying PvP is great, but many concessions are made for that tacked on PvP.
That's only because good balance is so important to PvP. If you balance the game primarily for PvE, PvP will suffer much more than PvE would if the game was balanced primarily with PvP in mind. Balance is not as important in PvE.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
D3, PoE, Warframe and marvel heroes would disagree.
From the time I spent in D3, POE and Marvel Heroes, the solo PVE stuff was of no challenge at all...POE was probably the most difficult, but once you got used to it it was pretty easy.
If the safe zone is expanded outwards from the cities and encompasses a large part of the game world, does this make the world safe enough for PVE'ers and crafters? I think Repopulation has an interesting idea - your faction controls about 1/3 of the world, the other faction the other 1/3 and then you have 1/3 that is open PVP. I think you can also place enough resources or PVE encounters (mobs, dungeons) in the safe zone so that a PVE'er would never have to venture outside of that zone and be kept busy. But then you could place certain rare resources in the PVP zone so that crafters would either need to venture out there to collect (preferably in the company of friends who like to PVP) or they could task others who enjoy PVP to collect them on their behalf.
I don't know if that is open enough for PVE'ers. I heard a lot of complaints about Repopulation because they couldn't explore the entire world in safety. But I think that might be one way to bridge the gap and make it so the PVE'ers aren't just unwilling prey to the predators.
Pretty much like Fallen Earth.
As a PvE crafter in that game I have no problem with rare resources being in those areas. To me it means I have to buy those items from auction or other players. And people who enjoy PvP but not crafting can make large amounts of money to buy things from crafters. Its kind of a win win situation if you ask me.
I think you raise a point though about just how much PvP area needs to be contested. IMO it does not need to be a lot. Basically any type of fighting requires a relatively small area. However exploring and gathering does require large areas. For that reason alone, PvE players do need access to a large portion of the map, say about 75% seems right to me. And let the richest areas be PvP contested. That gives the PvP meaning. And as a further bonus to the PvP player they are allowed to flag for PvP in any area of the map. (Again as FE does, with the added bonus of a 15 min timer, so that you can not just flick it on or off in a battle) IMO, this should be enough to keep any PvP player happy, or at least the honorable ones.
I know I just finished saying that PvP and PvE don't mix. The only way it can is if PvP can compromise. And most of the hardcores anyway, want nothing to do with that.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I would disagree with you there. The PvE in games today is so simple and the classes are always simplified to make sure they are balanced for PvP. Basically PvE is a side attraction to PvP, Group, and Raid content. There is no challenge in solo PvE. There is no creativity in solo PvE. PvE now consists of following a quests from zone to zone until you are max level with little chance of failure or death. There are no penalties for failing. The outside area content is not a challenge. The classes are mostly just DPS of a different flavor and they don't have much of an identity. Basically if you are playing the game as an RPG where you can explore, have a unique class/abilities, and have a fun place in the world then you are out of luck. I'm not saying PvP is great, but many concessions are made for that tacked on PvP.
That's only because good balance is so important to PvP. If you balance the game primarily for PvE, PvP will suffer much more than PvE would if the game was balanced primarily with PvP in mind. Balance is not as important in PvE.
I disagree with this. It leads to homogeneous classes and abilities for PvE. That makes a game A LOT less fun for me. Eventually there is no real choice. You pick a class and while they may animate a bit different the numbers and mechanics are all the same, and they feel the same. It takes away a large portion of why I enjoy RPGs.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle PvPers are so splintered on what they want in a MMO no one PvP MMO could fit them all. Even Crowfall thats trying to a PvP game for all still wont cut it. As some who want FFA PvP dont want full loot. Some who want 3 faction war want full loot. IMO Crowfall will stretch themselves to thin trying to be to many things. We see many themepark MMOs trying to be everything and it slows down content, fixes and balance and just stretches the devs to thin. In the end, lumping all PvPers in the same like mind is a fools move.
Not only that, but there's an entire 3rd-party industry selling hacks and cheats to PVP players (aimbots, wallhacks, radar hacks, teleports, etc.). And a certain group of "special" PVP'ers that dedicate their lives to finding ways to meta-game by circumventing and exploiting the rules that govern PVP.
Most PVP'ers are not lowlife scumbags, but unfortunately the genre does attract some very unsavoury types, and makes them disproportionally visible.
D3, PoE, Warframe and marvel heroes would disagree.
Those games aren't the type I'm looking for none of the less. I'm looking for a game more in line with Everquest. It doesn't have to have as many time sinks, but something similar in regards to having a world to explore, no GPS, possible being able to create houses somewhere in the middle of no where if you want. Basically something akin to settlers who are exploring and inhabiting a new world that is mostly untouched by humans. A place where there windy dungeons, dangerous forests, icy barren wastelands, and large barren desserts. A game where each class has a place in the world that is fun and unique. The challenging PvE combat is just part of it.
There are very few games that are just PvE IMO. Almost every game has instanced PvP and it has a large impact on the way the classes and content for PvE are made.
No most of the MMOS are PVE MMOS with PVP tacked on which is nothing more than a side game.
I would disagree with you there. The PvE in games today is so simple and the classes are always simplified to make sure they are balanced for PvP. Basically PvE is a side attraction to PvP, Group, and Raid content. There is no challenge in solo PvE. There is no creativity in solo PvE. PvE now consists of following a quests from zone to zone until you are max level with little chance of failure or death. There are no penalties for failing. The outside area content is not a challenge. The classes are mostly just DPS of a different flavor and they don't have much of an identity. Basically if you are playing the game as an RPG where you can explore, have a unique class/abilities, and have a fun place in the world then you are out of luck. I'm not saying PvP is great, but many concessions are made for that tacked on PvP.
Exactly. PvE can be great for a game, even one with PvP if its created with the purpose of making the world more engaging. If its simply there for linear quest hubs and instanced dungeons then its not creating a game world worth inhabiting, let alone worth fighting over.
The truth is, almost every pvp mmo in the last decade lacked anything worth playing for or fighting over in favor of the very vocal majority who seem to think pve and pvp cannot coexist. If you cant make an mmo thats engaging and offers progression and content to accomplish and fight over, no one is going to hang around for the PvP.
I would disagree with you there. The PvE in games today is so simple and the classes are always simplified to make sure they are balanced for PvP. Basically PvE is a side attraction to PvP, Group, and Raid content. There is no challenge in solo PvE. There is no creativity in solo PvE. PvE now consists of following a quests from zone to zone until you are max level with little chance of failure or death. There are no penalties for failing. The outside area content is not a challenge. The classes are mostly just DPS of a different flavor and they don't have much of an identity. Basically if you are playing the game as an RPG where you can explore, have a unique class/abilities, and have a fun place in the world then you are out of luck. I'm not saying PvP is great, but many concessions are made for that tacked on PvP.
That's only because good balance is so important to PvP. If you balance the game primarily for PvE, PvP will suffer much more than PvE would if the game was balanced primarily with PvP in mind. Balance is not as important in PvE.
I disagree with this. It leads to homogeneous classes and abilities for PvE. That makes a game A LOT less fun for me. Eventually there is no real choice. You pick a class and while they may animate a bit different the numbers and mechanics are all the same, and they feel the same. It takes away a large portion of why I enjoy RPGs.
Balance is a poison in PvE games.
++++++++
Balance in an mmorpg is a horrible thing. The only "balance" that should exist is making every class equally useful given the right circumstances. Attempting to make every class viable against every other class in every scenario is folly.
The statement was learned a long time ago and displayed when PVE servers vastly outweighed PVP servers. Look at Rift, SWTOR and any other game that offers pvp servers. There's 10 PVE servers for every 1 PVP server. Companies that don't try to push people will see that their PVE playerbase has the numbers. However... The PVP playerbase will spend more money when they offer pay to win aspects. The gaming industry learned the lesson it is best to separate pvp players from the pve players so they don't disrupt each other. I am a hardcore PVP player but I can easily see that PVE players do not need me for anything. I need them so I can have easy kills. This discussion was fixed when they decided to make PVP and PVE servers.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
The PvE MMORPG genre is dying because of the mind of the PvP crowd.
There used to be a time when developers used to invest time and money designing vast explorable virtual worlds for PvE adventurers. MMORPG artists used to take pleasure in designing a variety of detailed and intricate mobs to fight in these large explorable worlds. There used to be a well developed balance between gear acquired through mobs and those crafted by crafters throughout the levels until end game. End game was just that, the end. But that was fine because there was no rush to end game. The journey to end game would take years. The fun was in the journey and not the mad three day rush to end game to "finally start playing the game" we have today.
Fast forward to today ...
Developers have given up innovating the MMORPG genre. They have copied WoW ad nauseum without much success and in an effort to tap into the MOBA craze have given in to the mind of the PvP crowd. They don't care to acknowledge that PvP and PvE do not mix. They just know they need to make money and since the numbers show that millions are playing MOBA's, then that format must be "tapped" unto the MMORPG genre to get a piece of those millions off that player base.
There is an interesting dynamic happening now in the MMORPG genre. PvE MMORPG's cost a lot of money to design. Designing a healthy variety of mobs with competent AI is not an easy endeavor. The variety in art design and battle intelligence takes a huge amount of time and money. Large beautifully landscaped PvE environments cost a lot of money. Revolving PvE content costs a lot of money, etc. On the other hand, PvP content is cheap. The players themselves are the content. All designers have to do is build a platform for these players to go at each other and the game is done. Very little update work is needed in PvP outside of perhaps a new PvP map or a new tier of gear every once in a while.
Designers are very much aware that the large majority of players in these games prefer PvE. The fast money, however, is in developing PvP games that require very little development resources. They charge for alpha and beta stages, charge a cover charge for the box, release the game with a BS cash shop, milk if for a few months, then rinse repeat with another fail PvP effort.
In short, PvP concepts are easy short term money grubbing endeavors. PvE MMORPG's are long term concepts, with risky money earning endeavors. It's all about the money folks. The money is not in PvE MMORPG development. It is in the MOBA style MMO model.
... from the mind of the PvP crowd come sad times for the MMORPG genre, indeed.
The PvE MMORPG genre is dying because of the mind of the PvP crowd.
There used to be a time when developers used to invest time and money designing vast explorable virtual worlds for PvE adventurers. MMORPG artists used to take pleasure in designing a variety of detailed and intricate mobs to fight in these large explorable worlds. There used to be a well developed balance between gear acquired through mobs and those crafted by crafters throughout the levels until end game. End game was just that, the end. But that was fine because there was no rush to end game. The journey to end game would take years. The fun was in the journey and not the mad three day rush to end game to "finally start playing the game" we have today.
Fast forward to today ...
Developers have given up innovating the MMORPG genre. They have copied WoW ad nauseum without much success and in an effort to tap into the MOBA craze have given in to the mind of the PvP crowd. They don't care to acknowledge that PvP and PvE do not mix. They just know they need to make money and since the numbers show that millions are playing MOBA's, then that format must be "tapped" unto the MMORPG genre to get a piece of those millions off that player base.
There is an interesting dynamic happening now in the MMORPG genre. PvE MMORPG's cost a lot of money to design. Designing a healthy variety of mobs with competent AI is not an easy endeavor. The variety in art design and battle intelligence takes a huge amount of time and money. Large beautifully landscaped PvE environments cost a lot of money. Revolving PvE content costs a lot of money, etc. On the other hand, PvP content is cheap. The players themselves are the content. All designers have to do is build a platform for these players to go at each other and the game is done. Very little update work is needed in PvP outside of perhaps a new PvP map or a new tier of gear every once in a while.
Designers are very much aware that the large majority of players in these games prefer PvE. The fast money, however, is in developing PvP games that require very little development resources. They charge for alpha and beta stages, charge a cover charge for the box, release the game with a BS cash shop, milk if for a few months, then rinse repeat with another fail PvP effort.
In short, PvP concepts are easy short term money grubbing endeavors. PvE MMORPG's are long term concepts, with risky money earning endeavors. It's all about the money folks. The money is not in PvE MMORPG development. It is in the MOBA style MMO model.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
Dude feel free to disagree all you like but when you start throwing around words like 'weak' and what not..you come across extremely arrogant and a 'wannabe'. There is nothing weak about playing games to relax. People have been doing this even before PC gaming came into being. So please quit with this 'online bad ass' routine.
And i can not even begin to count how many facepalm i can give for your statement 'change your life maybe if you work 8 to 10 hours a job but don't change the game though'.
I don't know what world you have been living but in today's world of feirce competition you are constantly competing with everyone else doesn't matter if you volunteer for it or not. Jobs and resources are depleting day by day and things will only get worse for future generations.
Only on a MMO forums someone would try to make you feel bad for being a hard working and responsible individual and for taking games as a hobby. Yes that is how bizarre MMO players can be.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
There has been a very heated ongoing PvE vs PvP debate that disagrees with you. There is, indeed, a large portion of this genre's player base who do enjoy playing these games to relax. One does not need to compete directly with another player to feel accomplished. The sense of accomplishment comes in many forms. There is more to accomplishment than merely defeating others in PvP.
If that were the case everyone would be a boxer, wrester or UFC fighter in real life.
And just for good measure ... the fact that you PvP in a virtual video game does not make you a tough man or warrior. Trying to make that case in a video game forum is just weak and screams of someone who must play games in order to raise their self esteem or compensate for their lack of courage in real life.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
Dude feel to disagree all you like but when you start throwing around words like 'weak' and what not..you come across extremely arrogant. There is nothing weak about playing games to relax. People have been doing this even before PC gaming came into being. So please quit with this 'online bad ass' routine.
And i can not even begin to count how many facepalm i can give for your statement 'change your life maybe if you work 8 to 10 hours a job but don't change the game though'.
I don't know what world you have been living but in todays world of feirce competition you are constantly competing with everyone else doesn't matter if you volunteer for it or not.
Only on a MMO forums someone would try to make you feel bad for being a hard working and responsible individual and for taking games as a hobby. Yes that is how bizarre MMO players can be.
What does it have to do with working hard exactly? And how did that ever come into the equation? You're simply reading one thing and parroting another, which is also pretty weak among other things. I work in one of the most fast paced industries one can do, online wagering, and hold a position of fair responsibility. I deal with hundreds of people per day who have only their best interests in mind and usually a considerable sum of money is involved. Anyone who works in such an environment and deals with real life work stress knows that you either create a bubble for yourself that nothing can get through, or you're a doormat. So no, your views or the views I was talking about are not at all reality based. It's people who obviously can't cope with life and have to use that as an excuse why things like video games should be easy.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
There has been a very heated ongoing PvE vs PvP debate that disagrees with you. There is, indeed, a large portion of this genre's player base who do enjoy playing these games to relax. One does not need to compete directly with another player to feel accomplished. The sense of accomplishment comes in many forms. There is more to accomplishment than merely defeating others in PvP.
If that were the case everyone would be a boxer, wrester or UFC fighter.
And just for good measure ... the fact that you PvP in a virtual video game does not make you a tough man or warrior. Trying to make that case in a video game forum is just weak and screams of someone who must play games in order to raise their self esteem or compensate for their lack of courage in real life.
I must naturally put off that aura of badass because my post was pretty direct and no where did I try to make it seem like I was tougher or better than someone else. But thanks for noticing, I too think I'm a total badass, even though that has nothing to do with the discussion.
I think we are getting to the root of the issue PVE'ers are having in these games though, if the last two posts are any indication. We're dealing with a group of people that can not be challenged, or they get upset and they rage and if they're confronted with anything contrary to their own views they go into spastic little fits. That's fine, maybe that's why PVP'ers like doing what they do so much. You're literally just handing over power to other people if you get this upset and obviously intimidated by something as benign as what I said.
The last thing those of us who deal with confrontation and danger in real want to do is come home to deal with even more confrontation and danger in the games we play. There is no comparison or correlation to be made between what we do in real life and what we do in a game.
The only correlation or comparison that can be made between real life confrontation and danger and between confrontation and danger in video game is in those who have the mental propensity, or need, to do something, or be someone, that they can not do, or be, in real life.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
Sure games are competitive. But they are also fun. For some the fun is in winning, and for some the fun is in playing.
Lets take Bridge the card game for example. Its a pretty popular game, almost like chess. Lots of strategy. Some people even play it competitively. Now does that mean that everyone should be playing competitively?? Same with Poker. Should we all be trying to win the World series of Poker?
This is what I don't understand about the MMO winning types. Do you not understand that some people just don't care?? Or sure maybe we like to win but we aren't going to consume ourselves over it or lose sleep if we don't.
You are probably a type A personality and I am probably a type B. You care about it. I used to care and now I don't.
What is so hard to understand here??
Oh and nobody changed those games. They just separated the players. Simple!!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
The last thing those of us who deal with confrontation and danger in real want to do is come home to deal with confrontation and danger in the games we play. There is no comparison or correlation to be made between what we do in real life and what we do in a game.
The only correlation or comparison that can be made between real life confrontation and danger and between confrontation and danger in video game is in those who have the mental propensity, or need, to do something, or be someone, that they can not do, or be, in real life.
... and there in lies the truth.
[mod edit]
Right. So guys like Michael Jordan who were extremely successful by nature of their competitiveness just turn that off when they do other things. No, actually they weren't. When he plays golf, which is something a lot of people do to relax, he wants to crush the other guy. Because that's just how he is. Tom Brady doesn't take a day off from being Tom Brady. In fact, nobody who excels to the highest level of anything does so by accident. There is a direct correlation between how somebody handles competition in any capacity and how they are in their every day life.
So to think that every time you get beat down by someone in an online game that the person on the other end is someone who is powerless in real life, you might wanna rethink that. [mod edit]
Originally posted by filmoret If that were true then why do PVE players fail to recognize the innovative ideas that Rift and GW2 gave you?
What's innovative about Rift and GW2? The multi-phase public quests? Those were used first in Warhammer. Rift made them pop up in random locations. Not innovative.
GW2 was innovative in that it "tried to reduce impact of trinity" for a crowd who didn't even know what trinity is. Most people still don't know. It's not "tank heal dps". That aside, they did try something, with "try" being the operative word. Further, one of the big selling points of GW2 for so many people was RvR! What's RvR? PvP!
Yeah, I deal with hundreds of entitled customers a day, as an escalations manager dealing with gold/platinum wagering accounts. Were talkin people that spend ya know, 200-300k a year just for their hobby. You however probably wouldn't even warrant the pleasure of my company under professional terms, but regardless, I'm glad I could inspire such anger by not really doing a whole hell of a lot. You're the expert of highlighting posts, where exactly are the insults? Is this more perceived bullshit from yourself because you're incapable of carrying on a conversation without letting your tentative emotions literally burst through onto screen. Yeah clearly, you have the exact idea of what makes a well adjusted, functioning, hard working individual. People who are successful generally don't spend their lives in perpetual rage, just saying. Oh, and you missed a spot.
Written words are not good at expression so you might think i am angry even though i am quite relaxed actually. You think you are the first condscending full of himself individual i have come across on internet? who thinks he is someone or something on basis of how he approaches a freakin 'video game'? come on now. I just didn't stumble on internet today.
Maybe people who are generally successful don't spend their lives in perpetual rage but i am sure successful and confident people also don't need to flaunt it on a message board meant for discussing games. Only insecure people do.
And we got it first time really how 'awesome' you are. No need to repeat yourself. Telling people that they have 'weak outlook' towards life because they approach games as a tool to relax is nothing but a sad attempt at insult. And no doubt the most insane thing i have read in a long while.
Yeah sure, you sound totally relaxed there.
What video game are we playing here exactly? I presented my ideas, and rather than come up with a counter point, you just raged, hard. Just like you would if someone like me came up whilst you were farming and schooled you at a video game. And more than likely you'd sent hate tells or whatever, and the dude would just be laughing hysterically at you. Pretty much how I handled you too.
I don't mean to flaunt. I'm interested in competition in a lot of things. I abstain from it in every day scenarios because I'm just a cool fuckin guy. I understand a lot of people are douchebags, and get angry about trivial stuff like that, but I just like to have fun. If my real life accomplishments are bothering you so badly, don't call me out on it then. That's a simple solution for you.
When I said he had a weak outlook it's saying that real life is too competitive. It's not. Grow a pair, be better than that and be assured that you are. Then nothing can touch you. Least of all people on a message board. Maybe you need that lesson too, and some anger management.
Comments
That's only because good balance is so important to PvP. If you balance the game primarily for PvE, PvP will suffer much more than PvE would if the game was balanced primarily with PvP in mind. Balance is not as important in PvE.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
D3, PoE, Warframe and marvel heroes would disagree.
From the time I spent in D3, POE and Marvel Heroes, the solo PVE stuff was of no challenge at all...POE was probably the most difficult, but once you got used to it it was pretty easy.
Pretty much like Fallen Earth.
As a PvE crafter in that game I have no problem with rare resources being in those areas. To me it means I have to buy those items from auction or other players. And people who enjoy PvP but not crafting can make large amounts of money to buy things from crafters. Its kind of a win win situation if you ask me.
I think you raise a point though about just how much PvP area needs to be contested. IMO it does not need to be a lot. Basically any type of fighting requires a relatively small area. However exploring and gathering does require large areas. For that reason alone, PvE players do need access to a large portion of the map, say about 75% seems right to me. And let the richest areas be PvP contested. That gives the PvP meaning. And as a further bonus to the PvP player they are allowed to flag for PvP in any area of the map. (Again as FE does, with the added bonus of a 15 min timer, so that you can not just flick it on or off in a battle) IMO, this should be enough to keep any PvP player happy, or at least the honorable ones.
I know I just finished saying that PvP and PvE don't mix. The only way it can is if PvP can compromise. And most of the hardcores anyway, want nothing to do with that.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I disagree with this. It leads to homogeneous classes and abilities for PvE. That makes a game A LOT less fun for me. Eventually there is no real choice. You pick a class and while they may animate a bit different the numbers and mechanics are all the same, and they feel the same. It takes away a large portion of why I enjoy RPGs.
Balance is a poison in PvE games.
Not only that, but there's an entire 3rd-party industry selling hacks and cheats to PVP players (aimbots, wallhacks, radar hacks, teleports, etc.). And a certain group of "special" PVP'ers that dedicate their lives to finding ways to meta-game by circumventing and exploiting the rules that govern PVP.
Most PVP'ers are not lowlife scumbags, but unfortunately the genre does attract some very unsavoury types, and makes them disproportionally visible.
Those games aren't the type I'm looking for none of the less. I'm looking for a game more in line with Everquest. It doesn't have to have as many time sinks, but something similar in regards to having a world to explore, no GPS, possible being able to create houses somewhere in the middle of no where if you want. Basically something akin to settlers who are exploring and inhabiting a new world that is mostly untouched by humans. A place where there windy dungeons, dangerous forests, icy barren wastelands, and large barren desserts. A game where each class has a place in the world that is fun and unique. The challenging PvE combat is just part of it.
I don't understand the term "forced" PvP.
There's an ad for a competitive sales job..
you apply..
get hired..
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
Exactly. PvE can be great for a game, even one with PvP if its created with the purpose of making the world more engaging. If its simply there for linear quest hubs and instanced dungeons then its not creating a game world worth inhabiting, let alone worth fighting over.
The truth is, almost every pvp mmo in the last decade lacked anything worth playing for or fighting over in favor of the very vocal majority who seem to think pve and pvp cannot coexist. If you cant make an mmo thats engaging and offers progression and content to accomplish and fight over, no one is going to hang around for the PvP.
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Balance in an mmorpg is a horrible thing. The only "balance" that should exist is making every class equally useful given the right circumstances. Attempting to make every class viable against every other class in every scenario is folly.
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
The PvE MMORPG genre is dying because of the mind of the PvP crowd.
There used to be a time when developers used to invest time and money designing vast explorable virtual worlds for PvE adventurers. MMORPG artists used to take pleasure in designing a variety of detailed and intricate mobs to fight in these large explorable worlds. There used to be a well developed balance between gear acquired through mobs and those crafted by crafters throughout the levels until end game. End game was just that, the end. But that was fine because there was no rush to end game. The journey to end game would take years. The fun was in the journey and not the mad three day rush to end game to "finally start playing the game" we have today.
Fast forward to today ...
Developers have given up innovating the MMORPG genre. They have copied WoW ad nauseum without much success and in an effort to tap into the MOBA craze have given in to the mind of the PvP crowd. They don't care to acknowledge that PvP and PvE do not mix. They just know they need to make money and since the numbers show that millions are playing MOBA's, then that format must be "tapped" unto the MMORPG genre to get a piece of those millions off that player base.
There is an interesting dynamic happening now in the MMORPG genre. PvE MMORPG's cost a lot of money to design. Designing a healthy variety of mobs with competent AI is not an easy endeavor. The variety in art design and battle intelligence takes a huge amount of time and money. Large beautifully landscaped PvE environments cost a lot of money. Revolving PvE content costs a lot of money, etc. On the other hand, PvP content is cheap. The players themselves are the content. All designers have to do is build a platform for these players to go at each other and the game is done. Very little update work is needed in PvP outside of perhaps a new PvP map or a new tier of gear every once in a while.
Designers are very much aware that the large majority of players in these games prefer PvE. The fast money, however, is in developing PvP games that require very little development resources. They charge for alpha and beta stages, charge a cover charge for the box, release the game with a BS cash shop, milk if for a few months, then rinse repeat with another fail PvP effort.
In short, PvP concepts are easy short term money grubbing endeavors. PvE MMORPG's are long term concepts, with risky money earning endeavors. It's all about the money folks. The money is not in PvE MMORPG development. It is in the MOBA style MMO model.
... from the mind of the PvP crowd come sad times for the MMORPG genre, indeed.
I agree...and it sucks...
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
Dude feel free to disagree all you like but when you start throwing around words like 'weak' and what not..you come across extremely arrogant and a 'wannabe'. There is nothing weak about playing games to relax. People have been doing this even before PC gaming came into being. So please quit with this 'online bad ass' routine.
And i can not even begin to count how many facepalm i can give for your statement 'change your life maybe if you work 8 to 10 hours a job but don't change the game though'.
I don't know what world you have been living but in today's world of feirce competition you are constantly competing with everyone else doesn't matter if you volunteer for it or not. Jobs and resources are depleting day by day and things will only get worse for future generations.
Only on a MMO forums someone would try to make you feel bad for being a hard working and responsible individual and for taking games as a hobby. Yes that is how bizarre MMO players can be.
There has been a very heated ongoing PvE vs PvP debate that disagrees with you. There is, indeed, a large portion of this genre's player base who do enjoy playing these games to relax. One does not need to compete directly with another player to feel accomplished. The sense of accomplishment comes in many forms. There is more to accomplishment than merely defeating others in PvP.
If that were the case everyone would be a boxer, wrester or UFC fighter in real life.
And just for good measure ... the fact that you PvP in a virtual video game does not make you a tough man or warrior. Trying to make that case in a video game forum is just weak and screams of someone who must play games in order to raise their self esteem or compensate for their lack of courage in real life.
A video game is just that .... a game.
What does it have to do with working hard exactly? And how did that ever come into the equation? You're simply reading one thing and parroting another, which is also pretty weak among other things. I work in one of the most fast paced industries one can do, online wagering, and hold a position of fair responsibility. I deal with hundreds of people per day who have only their best interests in mind and usually a considerable sum of money is involved. Anyone who works in such an environment and deals with real life work stress knows that you either create a bubble for yourself that nothing can get through, or you're a doormat. So no, your views or the views I was talking about are not at all reality based. It's people who obviously can't cope with life and have to use that as an excuse why things like video games should be easy.
Telling it like it is, stay salty I guess.
I must naturally put off that aura of badass because my post was pretty direct and no where did I try to make it seem like I was tougher or better than someone else. But thanks for noticing, I too think I'm a total badass, even though that has nothing to do with the discussion.
I think we are getting to the root of the issue PVE'ers are having in these games though, if the last two posts are any indication. We're dealing with a group of people that can not be challenged, or they get upset and they rage and if they're confronted with anything contrary to their own views they go into spastic little fits. That's fine, maybe that's why PVP'ers like doing what they do so much. You're literally just handing over power to other people if you get this upset and obviously intimidated by something as benign as what I said.
The last thing those of us who deal with confrontation and danger in real want to do is come home to deal with even more confrontation and danger in the games we play. There is no comparison or correlation to be made between what we do in real life and what we do in a game.
The only correlation or comparison that can be made between real life confrontation and danger and between confrontation and danger in video game is in those who have the mental propensity, or need, to do something, or be someone, that they can not do, or be, in real life.
... and there in lies the truth.
[mod edit]
Sure games are competitive. But they are also fun. For some the fun is in winning, and for some the fun is in playing.
Lets take Bridge the card game for example. Its a pretty popular game, almost like chess. Lots of strategy. Some people even play it competitively. Now does that mean that everyone should be playing competitively?? Same with Poker. Should we all be trying to win the World series of Poker?
This is what I don't understand about the MMO winning types. Do you not understand that some people just don't care?? Or sure maybe we like to win but we aren't going to consume ourselves over it or lose sleep if we don't.
You are probably a type A personality and I am probably a type B. You care about it. I used to care and now I don't.
What is so hard to understand here??
Oh and nobody changed those games. They just separated the players. Simple!!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Right. So guys like Michael Jordan who were extremely successful by nature of their competitiveness just turn that off when they do other things. No, actually they weren't. When he plays golf, which is something a lot of people do to relax, he wants to crush the other guy. Because that's just how he is. Tom Brady doesn't take a day off from being Tom Brady. In fact, nobody who excels to the highest level of anything does so by accident. There is a direct correlation between how somebody handles competition in any capacity and how they are in their every day life.
So to think that every time you get beat down by someone in an online game that the person on the other end is someone who is powerless in real life, you might wanna rethink that. [mod edit]
What's innovative about Rift and GW2? The multi-phase public quests? Those were used first in Warhammer. Rift made them pop up in random locations. Not innovative.
GW2 was innovative in that it "tried to reduce impact of trinity" for a crowd who didn't even know what trinity is. Most people still don't know. It's not "tank heal dps". That aside, they did try something, with "try" being the operative word. Further, one of the big selling points of GW2 for so many people was RvR! What's RvR? PvP!
Yeah sure, you sound totally relaxed there.
What video game are we playing here exactly? I presented my ideas, and rather than come up with a counter point, you just raged, hard. Just like you would if someone like me came up whilst you were farming and schooled you at a video game. And more than likely you'd sent hate tells or whatever, and the dude would just be laughing hysterically at you. Pretty much how I handled you too.
I don't mean to flaunt. I'm interested in competition in a lot of things. I abstain from it in every day scenarios because I'm just a cool fuckin guy. I understand a lot of people are douchebags, and get angry about trivial stuff like that, but I just like to have fun. If my real life accomplishments are bothering you so badly, don't call me out on it then. That's a simple solution for you.
When I said he had a weak outlook it's saying that real life is too competitive. It's not. Grow a pair, be better than that and be assured that you are. Then nothing can touch you. Least of all people on a message board. Maybe you need that lesson too, and some anger management.