I hate to say it, but this is something Everquest got right. Starting with PvE and PvP servers from day 1.
Fixed that for you.
I played Everquest PvP, on Ralos Zek and then again on Sullon Zek. While Everquest PvP was good, I have to say, WoW did it better, and I think Everquest is a better game, go figure eh?
Yes, just because I argue against PvP does not mean I cannot partake in it, I am for player choice, no another player choosing for me.
P.S. The "I fixed it for you", is just insulting, I wish you wouldn't do that.
Open World PvP kills games, who knew. It's almost like people don't want to be killed by psychopathic players who think killing a lowbie with a max level toon qualifies as engaging and exciting gameplay.
Until those "hardcore PVPer" run into safe place or just log off and play alt ...
It rare to catch one and after you kill him , he come back as fast as rats .
PVP without rules to punish PK is endless war with 99% end at lost of the preys ... because we can't spend all our day to watch and wait for the rats come out of they hole.
We did set trap for the rats , some time we catch some . But those rats recover too fast that we can't hunt all them down
Just kill them don't work ,in the end ... we leave .
I'd love to see a game where master crafters have an ability that when they target another player who is not a crafter, it forces them to drop what they're doing and start crafting indefinitely or until they get frustrated and log-off...
And RPers... give them an ability to force others to do random RP emotes and slow-walk...
We need a new name for people who wouldn't like being forced to do that since carebear is already taken.
UO was not designed for PvP only. I played the game and a lot of people just wanted to explore, craft, and hunt PvE monsters. At the time there concepts of MMO had not really developed yet. Most people were just starting out in the MMO world. As in real life if there is no law then people try to bully others. UO was like living in medieval times with magic. There were hunters and prey. People who wanted to PvE/craft had little choice, but to deal with the PvPers. There was no other MMO to play at the time that was PvE. As I said it was fairly exciting, but also very frustrating. I liked having the experience, but I'm not sure if i would willingly do it again.
As a compromise what about laws in game? Where attacking other players for instance leads to guards and authorities targeting perpetrators, so maybe those players would have to avoid or be extremely careful in major cities. Perhaps a bounty placed on perpetrators head for other players to collect? ESO justice system incoming doesn't include a pvp component at this point.
Why would/wouldn't this concept work in open world pvp?
Originally posted by mystik13 As a compromise what about laws in game? Where attacking other players for instance leads to guards and authorities targeting perpetrators, so maybe those players would have to avoid or be extremely careful in major cities. Perhaps a bounty placed on perpetrators head for other players to collect? ESO justice system incoming doesn't include a pvp component at this point. Why would/wouldn't this concept work in open world pvp?
Those things already existed in UO. You couldn't attack or steal from someone in a city. Most of the game took place outside of cities though.
I'm more of a pve person myself, but I do feel like too many games are trying to please everyone. There's nothing wrong with being a pve centric or pvp centric game, and it's almost always better than trying to do both.
All you need to know about the mindset...it's kinda ridiculous...this coming from a guy who worked on UO and now Crowfall...is this what is infesting the MMO world???
"I regret some (but not all) of the outcome," Walton began, going on to explain that the rampant PvP was driving away over 70% of new players to UO. The creation of Trammel doubled the playerbase, but he said that it disenfranchised the hardcore PvPers who now had to prey on each other instead of PvEers.
dude this is like 15 years ago and he's wrong. UO created that much trauma for you? I learned for the Landmark forums that some are still traumatized to this day from UO. Let it go, it's not worth it.
I'll never understand people that hate PVP, go play a game that has PVP, and then whine endlessly that the game has PVP. I hate group finders, and therefore do not play games with them for the most part. This is a choice you can make, believe it or not.
People who like PVP are not some kind of sub-human race of trolls that drink tears and feast on your crushed dreams. Those people are called "Trolls," or "Douchebags," and if they cant kill you in your game of choice, they will find other ways to mess with you and anger you.
Wether you want to admit it or not, no game will ever have any kind of emergent content or truly allow you to shape the world without PVP, this is why every sandbox game has it. If your guild is having a dispute with another one, and all you can do is yell at them with caps lock on in chat, what the hell gets accomplished? Take H1Z1 for example. A group has the police station, they have fortified it and made it nearly impenetrable (sans stupid exploits). If you want to get in and reap the benefits, your group must kill them and take what you want. If it were PVP only, youd either be screwed or "A Wild Police Station Appears!" and offers you your own loot, because you are a special snowflake, and no one matters but you.
If PVE only is what people want, there are literally endless options out there. Good PVP MMORPGs are far fewer, which is why that crowd is so vocal about wanting more. Its not that there isnt a market and they fail, its that 90% of them end up being god awful games. It would be like saying "See, Wildstar failed! No one likes PVE, if they did it would be a success!"
Please visit my youtube channel for some H1Z1/DayZ casual roleplay videos!
If the safe zone is expanded outwards from the cities and encompasses a large part of the game world, does this make the world safe enough for PVE'ers and crafters? I think Repopulation has an interesting idea - your faction controls about 1/3 of the world, the other faction the other 1/3 and then you have 1/3 that is open PVP. I think you can also place enough resources or PVE encounters (mobs, dungeons) in the safe zone so that a PVE'er would never have to venture outside of that zone and be kept busy. But then you could place certain rare resources in the PVP zone so that crafters would either need to venture out there to collect (preferably in the company of friends who like to PVP) or they could task others who enjoy PVP to collect them on their behalf.
I don't know if that is open enough for PVE'ers. I heard a lot of complaints about Repopulation because they couldn't explore the entire world in safety. But I think that might be one way to bridge the gap and make it so the PVE'ers aren't just unwilling prey to the predators.
An MMORPG without open world PvP on at least one server is an automatic failure to me. I tried to enjoy GW2 but the PvE was so boring without any threat from other players and the PvP was so boring because it was all stuck in one relatively meaningless zone. Sadly the best PvP game I've played is EQ on the PvP servers and they barely touched the balance on it. Organic battles over the PvE content and the socialization that comes from it make this genre so much better that I feel kind of bad for the PvE only crowd because they'll never know how good these games can be.
WoW could have been a really great game without all the instancing which killed the PvP. PvP in a box isn't really PvP, it is some mini game.
All you need to know about the mindset...it's kinda ridiculous...this coming from a guy who worked on UO and now Crowfall...is this what is infesting the MMO world???
"I regret some (but not all) of the outcome," Walton began, going on to explain that the rampant PvP was driving away over 70% of new players to UO. The creation of Trammel doubled the playerbase, but he said that it disenfranchised the hardcore PvPers who now had to prey on each other instead of PvEers.
It's why I always eye roll whenever I see some tool declaring that in order to be the next great MMO the devs have to implement Full loot open world PvP.
UO wasn't the only MMO back then that was losing players more quickly than they gained them, the US version of Lineage suffered the same fate, and it wasn't even "full" loot. (Though you did have a chance of dropping an item each time you died until that got nerfed)
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Ender4
...
an MMORPG with forced open world pvp is an automatic failure to me.
^And to me as well.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
OP can I just ask what point are you trying to make here? I am a little slow at reading between the lines.
I have no idea where you stand on the issue based on your post.
I just need more information thats all.
Randayn apparently has huge issues with open world pvp, pvp'ers and apparently that this game is going to have open world pvp.
While I respect that he doesnt' like open world pvp, pvp'ers (though I suspect it's a certain type of pvp'er) and therefore this game, I don't know why he constantly posts about this game?
So I ask you Randayn, "why?"
What is it about this game that compels you to speak out against it numerous times about the same subject?
Sorry, I didnt get on last night at all, so Im answering a bit late.
My issue is that EVERY MMO these days is completely catering to PVP'ers. Name a game in production (that is worth a snot) that is not PVP focused or action combat focused for that matter?
There are none...0...that's my issue.
Yet, so many clamour for a game that is much like SWG...I clamour for a game that was much like Anarchy Online...others go for the EQ style...we never get it. Instead we get console based, watered down, garbage PVE MMOs...it's frustrating to say the least..
Ok I think I get what side you are coming from. The game was great, let the carebears leave and the PvP players will rule.
I take it then, that the OP is advocating that Trammel was a good thing? Thanks for sorting that out. I think.
No, it's sicker than that. It insinuates "people who want to be good at something, if it's competitive, are different animals" and further, "in an environment conducive to predatory thought and action, it's funny to sandbag so badly you change the whole formula, thus punishing those who legitimately succeed". It's garbage.
By succeed, I am assuming you mean, "I spent all of my game time learning how to best kill other players".
Do you not admit that probably there were other people playing that just did not care for killing other players? Do you assume that the whole point of the game was to succeed at killing other players? Why should someone learn how to do something when they obviously have no interest in it?
You assume that people left because they were lazy and did not want to learn how to fight. Perhaps they had other reasons and you might have been part of that. How can you assume that all players want or should want to be elite player killers? Even the makers of UO did not assume that would happen. They probably figured that people would all play nice and have a little fun killing other players once and a while. They did not assume that players would make this a way of life and and a specific niche of MMO gaming when they allowed it to happen.
And low and behold the result was the same as it has been to date. A small number of players are allowed to control the game at the expense of the many. Not a formula for success then, and still not a formula today.
Hence the reason PvP and PvE do not mix in an MMO.
In some cases I agree. If the game is designed where one state is battling nothing but creatures in it's lands than PvE is perfectly ok. But, if a games history is of battling factions then I am all for PvP which would have PvE in the mix.
The older I get the less I enjoy PvP, and choices are always good no matter what!
Of course choices are good.
But there really is no choice to be made with PvP and PvE. Its all or nothing with PvP. They have to be able to kill everyone and everything or the game has no meaning for them.
And a PvE player can't choose to opt out of PvP.
Where is the choice? PvP players will say, join a guild, learn to fight, etc. That still doesn't take into account a large section of players that don't want other players interfering with their game experience. Its funny how PvE players don't mind PvP in a game as long as they are protected from it. But for some reason PvP players believe we should all change and become like them. So PvE players actually offer the choice but PvP players say no, everyone must fight in our games.
In truth that is the fundamental difference between PvP and PvE players. PvP want the interaction, to be able to either positively or negatively impact others play. PvE players just want to play the game.
Nothing wrong with either, you just can't have it both ways. IMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
If the safe zone is expanded outwards from the cities and encompasses a large part of the game world, does this make the world safe enough for PVE'ers and crafters? I think Repopulation has an interesting idea - your faction controls about 1/3 of the world, the other faction the other 1/3 and then you have 1/3 that is open PVP. I think you can also place enough resources or PVE encounters (mobs, dungeons) in the safe zone so that a PVE'er would never have to venture outside of that zone and be kept busy. But then you could place certain rare resources in the PVP zone so that crafters would either need to venture out there to collect (preferably in the company of friends who like to PVP) or they could task others who enjoy PVP to collect them on their behalf.
I don't know if that is open enough for PVE'ers. I heard a lot of complaints about Repopulation because they couldn't explore the entire world in safety. But I think that might be one way to bridge the gap and make it so the PVE'ers aren't just unwilling prey to the predators.
I believe a better system would be to have some kind of laws in place to heavily punish those who go around killing people randomly like in real life. Make it so said players are wanted everywhere and there are large bounties placed on their heads so that people will actively seek out killing them or bringing them to jail. Make them pay penance by execution or having to give up all their items/loot, serve jail time, and lose some their skills if they are caught. Make it so they can't go into town at all or the guards will kill them on sight. This should balance things out to a point where it might be bearable. You just need enough repercussions to deter players from killing randomly IMO. Most wouldn't take the risk if they knew they might actually loose a lot of what they worked hard to gain by doing so.
- Don't you think maybe PvP players simply left because the game wasn't PvP-focused anymore, and they didn't see any love for them from the developer?
I left Aion for that very same reason. They moved away from their PvP focus and made it more PvE, so I left because I knew where the game was going and I was already playing WoW at the time for my PvE fix. So I didn't care for it.
- It annoys me that - while there are so many options out there for PvE - a portion of the PvE crowd still asks for more games to become PvE-friendly/centric.
Why? Why can't these people just pick another existing PvE game instead of spoiling the fun for the people who enjoyed the existing formula/balance of the game?
I'm sort of glad that the PvE market is saturated these days. This makes developers more likely to explore niches and offer some new formulas instead of the same copy-pasta crappy PvE with some PvP tucked quickly on top of it to pretend they like everyone.
Also I could go how PvP is different from ganking, etc. but I don't really give a damn.
There are very few games that are just PvE IMO. Almost every game has instanced PvP and it has a large impact on the way the classes and content for PvE are made.
No most of the MMOS are PVE MMOS with PVP tacked on which is nothing more than a side game.
If the safe zone is expanded outwards from the cities and encompasses a large part of the game world, does this make the world safe enough for PVE'ers and crafters? I think Repopulation has an interesting idea - your faction controls about 1/3 of the world, the other faction the other 1/3 and then you have 1/3 that is open PVP. I think you can also place enough resources or PVE encounters (mobs, dungeons) in the safe zone so that a PVE'er would never have to venture outside of that zone and be kept busy. But then you could place certain rare resources in the PVP zone so that crafters would either need to venture out there to collect (preferably in the company of friends who like to PVP) or they could task others who enjoy PVP to collect them on their behalf.
I don't know if that is open enough for PVE'ers. I heard a lot of complaints about Repopulation because they couldn't explore the entire world in safety. But I think that might be one way to bridge the gap and make it so the PVE'ers aren't just unwilling prey to the predators.
I am starting to like the concept, but the only thing I dont like is that if you are PVE only and don't want to PVP, you cannot build a city. That's kinda ridiculous.
Open world PVP for me is a good thing. I loved SWG type combat, it was entirely optional. Of course people complained because they wanted to join a faction (mainly rebels) and do PVE missions but did not like coping with the fact that they would be attacked by overt players of the opposite faction. They don't like being "gated" from content, even though they could still do it just at risk. So okay risk was removed from the equation, those players could do anything they wanted to faction aligned NPC's and that factions members could do nothing about it.
Sound familiar? This is why group content is heavily diminished as well in your standard MMO. People don't want to be barred from doing that content unless they make friends, join a guild, or wait for a PUG. For SWG specifically group PVE was already non existent. But there were a lot of other venues for community interaction, mainly through the great player driven economy, resources, and the doc/entertainer system. Most games have no semblance of any of those factors, so without PVP or group PVE they become single player games essentially. You can buy and sale on the AH that's about it.
And that's pretty much how every modern MMO is. So before you want to take shots at the evil PVPers who just want to gank you, maybe ask why you were so intent on destroying the whole concept of MMO's by taking player interaction out of the equation. Because that's exactly what I see happening.
If the safe zone is expanded outwards from the cities and encompasses a large part of the game world, does this make the world safe enough for PVE'ers and crafters? I think Repopulation has an interesting idea - your faction controls about 1/3 of the world, the other faction the other 1/3 and then you have 1/3 that is open PVP. I think you can also place enough resources or PVE encounters (mobs, dungeons) in the safe zone so that a PVE'er would never have to venture outside of that zone and be kept busy. But then you could place certain rare resources in the PVP zone so that crafters would either need to venture out there to collect (preferably in the company of friends who like to PVP) or they could task others who enjoy PVP to collect them on their behalf.
I don't know if that is open enough for PVE'ers. I heard a lot of complaints about Repopulation because they couldn't explore the entire world in safety. But I think that might be one way to bridge the gap and make it so the PVE'ers aren't just unwilling prey to the predators.
I believe a better system would be to have some kind of laws in place to heavily punish those who go around killing people randomly like in real life. Make it so said players are wanted everywhere and there are large bounties placed on their heads so that people will actively seek out killing them or bringing them to jail. Make them pay penance by execution or having to give up all their items/loot, serve jail time, and lose some their skills if they are caught. Make it so they can't go into town at all or the guards will kill them on sight. This should balance things out to a point where it might be bearable. You just need enough repercussions to deter players from killing randomly IMO. Most wouldn't take the risk if they knew they might actually loose a lot of what they worked hard to gain by doing so.
If you have to heavily penalize something, why allow it in the first place?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
PvPers are so splintered on what they want in a MMO no one PvP MMO could fit them all. Even Crowfall thats trying to a PvP game for all still wont cut it. As some who want FFA PvP dont want full loot. Some who want 3 faction war want full loot. IMO Crowfall will stretch themselves to thin trying to be to many things. We see many themepark MMOs trying to be everything and it slows down content, fixes and balance and just stretches the devs to thin. In the end, lumping all PvPers in the same like mind is a fools move.
- Don't you think maybe PvP players simply left because the game wasn't PvP-focused anymore, and they didn't see any love for them from the developer?
I left Aion for that very same reason. They moved away from their PvP focus and made it more PvE, so I left because I knew where the game was going and I was already playing WoW at the time for my PvE fix. So I didn't care for it.
- It annoys me that - while there are so many options out there for PvE - a portion of the PvE crowd still asks for more games to become PvE-friendly/centric.
Why? Why can't these people just pick another existing PvE game instead of spoiling the fun for the people who enjoyed the existing formula/balance of the game?
I'm sort of glad that the PvE market is saturated these days. This makes developers more likely to explore niches and offer some new formulas instead of the same copy-pasta crappy PvE with some PvP tucked quickly on top of it to pretend they like everyone.
Also I could go how PvP is different from ganking, etc. but I don't really give a damn.
There are very few games that are just PvE IMO. Almost every game has instanced PvP and it has a large impact on the way the classes and content for PvE are made.
No most of the MMOS are PVE MMOS with PVP tacked on which is nothing more than a side game.
I would disagree with you there. The PvE in games today is so simple and the classes are always simplified to make sure they are balanced for PvP. Basically PvE is a side attraction to PvP, Group, and Raid content. There is no challenge in solo PvE. There is no creativity in solo PvE. PvE now consists of following a quests from zone to zone until you are max level with little chance of failure or death. There are no penalties for failing. The outside area content is not a challenge. The classes are mostly just DPS of a different flavor and they don't have much of an identity. Basically if you are playing the game as an RPG where you can explore, have a unique class/abilities, and have a fun place in the world then you are out of luck. I'm not saying PvP is great, but many concessions are made for that tacked on PvP.
Comments
I played Everquest PvP, on Ralos Zek and then again on Sullon Zek. While Everquest PvP was good, I have to say, WoW did it better, and I think Everquest is a better game, go figure eh?
Yes, just because I argue against PvP does not mean I cannot partake in it, I am for player choice, no another player choosing for me.
P.S. The "I fixed it for you", is just insulting, I wish you wouldn't do that.
Unnecessary, gratuitous "us vs them" mentality. Sadistic, maybe. I'd run with "sadistic".
Until those "hardcore PVPer" run into safe place or just log off and play alt ...
It rare to catch one and after you kill him , he come back as fast as rats .
PVP without rules to punish PK is endless war with 99% end at lost of the preys ... because we can't spend all our day to watch and wait for the rats come out of they hole.
We did set trap for the rats , some time we catch some . But those rats recover too fast that we can't hunt all them down
Just kill them don't work ,in the end ... we leave .
I just wanted to give you a virtual cookie!
That is a very funny post!
Why would/wouldn't this concept work in open world pvp?
Those things already existed in UO. You couldn't attack or steal from someone in a city. Most of the game took place outside of cities though.
dude this is like 15 years ago and he's wrong. UO created that much trauma for you? I learned for the Landmark forums that some are still traumatized to this day from UO. Let it go, it's not worth it.
I'll never understand people that hate PVP, go play a game that has PVP, and then whine endlessly that the game has PVP. I hate group finders, and therefore do not play games with them for the most part. This is a choice you can make, believe it or not.
People who like PVP are not some kind of sub-human race of trolls that drink tears and feast on your crushed dreams. Those people are called "Trolls," or "Douchebags," and if they cant kill you in your game of choice, they will find other ways to mess with you and anger you.
Wether you want to admit it or not, no game will ever have any kind of emergent content or truly allow you to shape the world without PVP, this is why every sandbox game has it. If your guild is having a dispute with another one, and all you can do is yell at them with caps lock on in chat, what the hell gets accomplished? Take H1Z1 for example. A group has the police station, they have fortified it and made it nearly impenetrable (sans stupid exploits). If you want to get in and reap the benefits, your group must kill them and take what you want. If it were PVP only, youd either be screwed or "A Wild Police Station Appears!" and offers you your own loot, because you are a special snowflake, and no one matters but you.
If PVE only is what people want, there are literally endless options out there. Good PVP MMORPGs are far fewer, which is why that crowd is so vocal about wanting more. Its not that there isnt a market and they fail, its that 90% of them end up being god awful games. It would be like saying "See, Wildstar failed! No one likes PVE, if they did it would be a success!"
Please visit my youtube channel for some H1Z1/DayZ casual roleplay videos!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrQoK5VZlwBBzpsksmXtjMQ
If the safe zone is expanded outwards from the cities and encompasses a large part of the game world, does this make the world safe enough for PVE'ers and crafters? I think Repopulation has an interesting idea - your faction controls about 1/3 of the world, the other faction the other 1/3 and then you have 1/3 that is open PVP. I think you can also place enough resources or PVE encounters (mobs, dungeons) in the safe zone so that a PVE'er would never have to venture outside of that zone and be kept busy. But then you could place certain rare resources in the PVP zone so that crafters would either need to venture out there to collect (preferably in the company of friends who like to PVP) or they could task others who enjoy PVP to collect them on their behalf.
I don't know if that is open enough for PVE'ers. I heard a lot of complaints about Repopulation because they couldn't explore the entire world in safety. But I think that might be one way to bridge the gap and make it so the PVE'ers aren't just unwilling prey to the predators.
http://imgur.com/gallery/PWFXJqf
An MMORPG without open world PvP on at least one server is an automatic failure to me. I tried to enjoy GW2 but the PvE was so boring without any threat from other players and the PvP was so boring because it was all stuck in one relatively meaningless zone. Sadly the best PvP game I've played is EQ on the PvP servers and they barely touched the balance on it. Organic battles over the PvE content and the socialization that comes from it make this genre so much better that I feel kind of bad for the PvE only crowd because they'll never know how good these games can be.
WoW could have been a really great game without all the instancing which killed the PvP. PvP in a box isn't really PvP, it is some mini game.
an MMORPG with forced open world pvp is an automatic failure to me.
It's why I always eye roll whenever I see some tool declaring that in order to be the next great MMO the devs have to implement Full loot open world PvP.
UO wasn't the only MMO back then that was losing players more quickly than they gained them, the US version of Lineage suffered the same fate, and it wasn't even "full" loot. (Though you did have a chance of dropping an item each time you died until that got nerfed)
^And to me as well.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Sorry, I didnt get on last night at all, so Im answering a bit late.
My issue is that EVERY MMO these days is completely catering to PVP'ers. Name a game in production (that is worth a snot) that is not PVP focused or action combat focused for that matter?
There are none...0...that's my issue.
Yet, so many clamour for a game that is much like SWG...I clamour for a game that was much like Anarchy Online...others go for the EQ style...we never get it. Instead we get console based, watered down, garbage PVE MMOs...it's frustrating to say the least..
Of course choices are good.
But there really is no choice to be made with PvP and PvE. Its all or nothing with PvP. They have to be able to kill everyone and everything or the game has no meaning for them.
And a PvE player can't choose to opt out of PvP.
Where is the choice? PvP players will say, join a guild, learn to fight, etc. That still doesn't take into account a large section of players that don't want other players interfering with their game experience. Its funny how PvE players don't mind PvP in a game as long as they are protected from it. But for some reason PvP players believe we should all change and become like them. So PvE players actually offer the choice but PvP players say no, everyone must fight in our games.
In truth that is the fundamental difference between PvP and PvE players. PvP want the interaction, to be able to either positively or negatively impact others play. PvE players just want to play the game.
Nothing wrong with either, you just can't have it both ways. IMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I believe a better system would be to have some kind of laws in place to heavily punish those who go around killing people randomly like in real life. Make it so said players are wanted everywhere and there are large bounties placed on their heads so that people will actively seek out killing them or bringing them to jail. Make them pay penance by execution or having to give up all their items/loot, serve jail time, and lose some their skills if they are caught. Make it so they can't go into town at all or the guards will kill them on sight. This should balance things out to a point where it might be bearable. You just need enough repercussions to deter players from killing randomly IMO. Most wouldn't take the risk if they knew they might actually loose a lot of what they worked hard to gain by doing so.
No most of the MMOS are PVE MMOS with PVP tacked on which is nothing more than a side game.
I am starting to like the concept, but the only thing I dont like is that if you are PVE only and don't want to PVP, you cannot build a city. That's kinda ridiculous.
Open world PVP for me is a good thing. I loved SWG type combat, it was entirely optional. Of course people complained because they wanted to join a faction (mainly rebels) and do PVE missions but did not like coping with the fact that they would be attacked by overt players of the opposite faction. They don't like being "gated" from content, even though they could still do it just at risk. So okay risk was removed from the equation, those players could do anything they wanted to faction aligned NPC's and that factions members could do nothing about it.
Sound familiar? This is why group content is heavily diminished as well in your standard MMO. People don't want to be barred from doing that content unless they make friends, join a guild, or wait for a PUG. For SWG specifically group PVE was already non existent. But there were a lot of other venues for community interaction, mainly through the great player driven economy, resources, and the doc/entertainer system. Most games have no semblance of any of those factors, so without PVP or group PVE they become single player games essentially. You can buy and sale on the AH that's about it.
And that's pretty much how every modern MMO is. So before you want to take shots at the evil PVPers who just want to gank you, maybe ask why you were so intent on destroying the whole concept of MMO's by taking player interaction out of the equation. Because that's exactly what I see happening.
If you have to heavily penalize something, why allow it in the first place?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I would disagree with you there. The PvE in games today is so simple and the classes are always simplified to make sure they are balanced for PvP. Basically PvE is a side attraction to PvP, Group, and Raid content. There is no challenge in solo PvE. There is no creativity in solo PvE. PvE now consists of following a quests from zone to zone until you are max level with little chance of failure or death. There are no penalties for failing. The outside area content is not a challenge. The classes are mostly just DPS of a different flavor and they don't have much of an identity. Basically if you are playing the game as an RPG where you can explore, have a unique class/abilities, and have a fun place in the world then you are out of luck. I'm not saying PvP is great, but many concessions are made for that tacked on PvP.