The only correlation or comparison that can be made between real life confrontation and danger and between confrontation and danger in video game is in those who have the mental propensity, or need, to do something, or be someone, that they can not do, or be, in real life.
Not fair or empirically true. More "us vs them" mentality. To paraphrase, "If you don't agree with me, there must be something wrong with you". Hey, man, I feel it, too, alot, and check myself. You need to do some checking. lol
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
I have 3 kids, a wife, am one of the top paid people in my field and strive to be the best everyday. I have enough accomplishment in real life to be able to relax to a fantasy video game.
Why does my life have to be bad for me to want to escape sometimes? I love my life but I also enjoy MMO's that dont force you to have to deal with the PVP crowd. Those games are becoming few and far between (any good ones) and there is a new wave of non-stop FFA PVP games being created.
As for your thoughts that you are not competing in real life...that's false for anyone who has the slightest success. Everyday I compete with myself. It's the only way to improve.
The only correlation or comparison that can be made between real life confrontation and danger and between confrontation and danger in video game is in those who have the mental propensity, or need, to do something, or be someone, that they can not do, or be, in real life.
Not fair or empirically true. More "us vs them" mentality. To paraphrase, "If you don't agree with me, there must be something wrong with you". Hey, man, I feel it, too, alot, and check myself. You need to do some checking. lol
I did not mean to generalize. It is obviously not the case in all instances. It is, however, the fact in more cases than not.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
Sure games are competitive. But they are also fun. For some the fun is in winning, and for some the fun is in playing.
Lets take Bridge the card game for example. Its a pretty popular game, almost like chess. Lots of strategy. Some people even play it competitively. Now does that mean that everyone should be playing competitively?? Same with Poker. Should we all be trying to win the World series of Poker?
This is what I don't understand about the MMO winning types. Do you not understand that some people just don't care?? Or sure maybe we like to win but we aren't going to consume ourselves over it or lose sleep if we don't.
You are probably a type A personality and I am probably a type B. You care about it. I used to care and now I don't.
What is so hard to understand here??
Oh and nobody changed those games. They just separated the players. Simple!!
I care about it as much as I do anything else that I spend a couple of thousand a year on I suppose. If I didn't care at all, don't see much of a point in doing it.
I don't care about pixelated items or who took "my" mob or if someone else can play their class or not. I see PVE'ers whinge incessantly about that kinda stuff all the time.
In my view, they're control freaks. PVP'ers for the most part just wanna mix it up, and that generally rubs the control freaks the wrong way. I wouldn't say one is more indifferent than the other though.
Yeah, I deal with hundreds of entitled customers a day, as an escalations manager dealing with gold/platinum wagering accounts. Were talkin people that spend ya know, 200-300k a year just for their hobby. You however probably wouldn't even warrant the pleasure of my company under professional terms, but regardless, I'm glad I could inspire such anger by not really doing a whole hell of a lot. You're the expert of highlighting posts, where exactly are the insults? Is this more perceived bullshit from yourself because you're incapable of carrying on a conversation without letting your tentative emotions literally burst through onto screen. Yeah clearly, you have the exact idea of what makes a well adjusted, functioning, hard working individual. People who are successful generally don't spend their lives in perpetual rage, just saying. Oh, and you missed a spot.
Written words are not good at expression so you might think i am angry even though i am quite relaxed actually. You think you are the first condscending full of himself individual i have come across on internet? who thinks he is someone or something on basis of how he approaches a freakin 'video game'? come on now. I just didn't stumble on internet today.
Maybe people who are generally successful don't spend their lives in perpetual rage but i am sure successful and confident people also don't need to flaunt it on a message board meant for discussing games. Only insecure people do.
And we got it first time really how 'awesome' you are. No need to repeat yourself. Telling people that they have 'weak outlook' towards life because they approach games as a tool to relax is nothing but a sad attempt at insult. And no doubt the most insane thing i have read in a long while.
Yeah sure, you sound totally relaxed there.
What video game are we playing here exactly? I presented my ideas, and rather than come up with a counter point, you just raged, hard. Just like you would if someone like me came up whilst you were farming and schooled you at a video game. And more than likely you'd sent hate tells or whatever, and the dude would just be laughing hysterically at you. Pretty much how I handled you too.
I don't mean to flaunt. I'm interested in competition in a lot of things. I abstain from it in every day scenarios because I'm just a cool fuckin guy. I understand a lot of people are douchebags, and get angry about trivial stuff like that, but I just like to have fun. If my real life accomplishments are bothering you so badly, don't call me out on it then. That's a simple solution for you.
When I said he had a weak outlook it's saying that real life is too competitive. It's not. Grow a pair, be better than that and be assured that you are. Then nothing can touch you. Least of all people on a message board. Maybe you need that lesson too, and some anger management.
All i said was that you come across as arrogant and condscending (not that i was wrong). If that is 'rage hard' for you then i don't know what else to tell you.
My point is simple..why can't people disagree anymore without trying to put another person down? we are all different. Some of us want to relax while playing games others don't.
[mod edit]
Only because you keep telling me i am angry doesn't mean i am. [mod edit]
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
Sure games are competitive. But they are also fun. For some the fun is in winning, and for some the fun is in playing.
Lets take Bridge the card game for example. Its a pretty popular game, almost like chess. Lots of strategy. Some people even play it competitively. Now does that mean that everyone should be playing competitively?? Same with Poker. Should we all be trying to win the World series of Poker?
This is what I don't understand about the MMO winning types. Do you not understand that some people just don't care?? Or sure maybe we like to win but we aren't going to consume ourselves over it or lose sleep if we don't.
You are probably a type A personality and I am probably a type B. You care about it. I used to care and now I don't.
What is so hard to understand here??
Oh and nobody changed those games. They just separated the players. Simple!!
I care about it as much as I do anything else that I spend a couple of thousand a year on I suppose. If I didn't care at all, don't see much of a point in doing it.
I don't care about pixelated items or who took "my" mob or if someone else can play their class or not. I see PVE'ers whinge incessantly about that kinda stuff all the time.
In my view, they're control freaks. PVP'ers for the most part just wanna mix it up, and that generally rubs the control freaks the wrong way. I wouldn't say one is more indifferent than the other though.
Why do you play MMO's again? go back to CoD...
Also, please stop criticizing people you don't know. You don't know who we are...and from your comments, you definitely don't know who I am.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
I have 3 kids, a wife, am one of the top paid people in my field and strive to be the best everyday. I have enough accomplishment in real life to be able to relax to a fantasy video game.
Why does my life have to be bad for me to want to escape sometimes? I love my life but I also enjoy MMO's that dont force you to have to deal with the PVP crowd. Those games are becoming few and far between (any good ones) and there is a new wave of non-stop FFA PVP games being created.
As for your thoughts that you are not competing in real life...that's false for anyone who has the slightest success. Everyday I compete with myself. It's the only way to improve.
No, I'm not competing in real life, at all. I got where I am today on my own merits, not by stepping over others. My company came to me and begged me to take promotions, I don't ladder climb or cut anyone's throat or anything like that. That kinda behaviour is just deplorable, and regardless of what anyone thinks about the world and how it operates, no you don't have to be like that. That's an excuse people use to justify underhanded behaviour.
Maybe those games are coming because people are tired or the same old shit. It's about time to be honest.
No, I'm not competing in real life, at all. I got where I am today on my own merits, not by stepping over others. My company came to me and begged me to take promotions, I don't ladder climb or cut anyone's throat or anything like that. That kinda behaviour is just deplorable, and regardless of what anyone thinks about the world and how it operates, no you don't have to be like that. That's an excuse people use to justify underhanded behaviour.
Maybe those games are coming because people are tired or the same old shit. It's about time to be honest.
So you are saying I stepped on people to get where I am? I just stated that I only compete with myself. I am great (in my field) because I did the extra work and study that not many others did. Not by kissing ass and stepping on toes.
Back on track...let's try and keep with the topic...don't need another one of my posts being shutdown.
The producer (of UO and now Crowfall) said that PVP'ers left because they didnt have carebears to beat up on.
What are the PVP'ers thoughts on this?
I think it goes beyond that.
People who pursue these PvP games also want to be in the group of people that win or are good at that particular game, that's really where these games go south. Not everyone can be the best, so when the weakest leave, the next weakest group becomes the new prey. This process continues until a game has either reached equilibrium or has failed.
PvEers are the most obvious and natural prey, and they're first to leave. But then you have PvPers who would have liked the game if the easy pickings were still around. But once they've fallen down the food chain they no longer have fun because being prey isn't fun, the PvEers were their buffer.
It reminds me of WoW arena when Blizz made it tough to get points and rating (and of course gear). The groups that just got 10 losses a week quit right away, why bother queuing for points if you can't get points? But then you started to see the chain reaction, people who's rating was inflated because of those "10 loses for points" people all of a sudden were finding themselves as the new worst PvPers, and now they weren't getting points, or getting so few that it sucked the fun out for them. It was a bad season for many teams and the participation in Arenas plummeted.
Basically no one wants to be the whipping boy, but at the same time, no one wants to protect the whipping boy, they want him to exist for their amusement.
And that's how these games go, the invite everyone, the people who aren't the better players of that particular game just leave for another game they may be better at and the group above them moves down a rung. This process repeats until the core niche is formed (see: EVE/Darkfall) or the game just falls over.
Some people are just good at game and they'll find themselves being in the top of whatever they play. This group is rather small, but everyone likes to see themselves as being one of the good players so when/if they suck, they just chalk it up to "this game blows for reasons X, Y, Z". You have people who are great in WoW PvP, but terrible in GW2 and vice versa. Some are great at MOBA's while others just can't get there. Etc etc.
Back on track...let's try and keep with the topic...don't need another one of my posts being shutdown.
The producer (of UO and now Crowfall) said that PVP'ers left because they didnt have carebears to beat up on.
What are the PVP'ers thoughts on this?
I think it goes beyond that.
People who pursue these PvP games also want to be in the group of people that win or are good at that particular game, that's really where these games go south. Not everyone can be the best, so when the weakest leave, the next weakest group becomes the new prey. This process continues until a game has either reached equilibrium or has failed.
PvEers are the most obvious and natural prey, and they're first to leave. But then you have PvPers who would have liked the game if the easy pickings were still around. But once they've fallen down the food chain they no longer have fun because being prey isn't fun, the PvEers were their buffer.
It reminds me of WoW arena when Blizz made it tough to get points and rating (and of course gear). The groups that just got 10 losses a week quit right away, why bother queuing for points if you can't get points? But then you started to see the chain reaction, people who's rating was inflated because of those "10 loses for points" people all of a sudden were finding themselves as the new worst PvPers, and now they weren't getting points, or getting so few that it sucked the fun out for them. It was a bad season for many teams and the participation in Arenas plummeted.
Basically no one wants to be the whipping boy, but at the same time, no one wants to protect the whipping boy, they want him to exist for their amusement.
And that's how these games go, the invite everyone, the people who aren't the better players of that particular game just leave for another game they may be better at and the group above them moves down a rung. This process repeats until the core niche is formed (see: EVE/Darkfall) or the game just falls over.
Some people are just good at game and they'll find themselves being in the top of whatever they play. This group is rather small, but everyone likes to see themselves as being one of the good players so when/if they suck, they just chalk it up to "this game blows for reasons X, Y, Z". You have people who are great in WoW PvP, but terrible in GW2 and vice versa. Some are great at MOBA's while others just can't get there. Etc etc.
So I guess, with what you are saying, it makes sense for many devs to build PVP type games because of the trickle down players eventually filling all the games? My one question would be, is "the niche" the same group for all games and in that case, would it not be a good idea for many devs to start creating these types of games? or is it more a race for these devs to see who wins (knowing there will be losers)?
WTF is with mmo developers treating pvp in such a white and black setting. It's an either "All or nothing" situation, which leads them to have to create areas where pvp is restricted. The problem isn't pvp availability or not availability, the problem is that high leveled, or powerful characters have an unrestricted means of preying on super weak players.
And no, you cannot say it's skill when some level 60, goes out and kills some level 30-40. Most games' mechanics already make it so highest levels are exponentially more powerful than someone half their level.
So yes, players get frustrated. Even players who like pvp a lot, get frustrated. Can you blame them? There is nothing, literaly, nothing they can do.
EQ 1 had a great form of pvp: 8 level diffirence was the restriction, you can't fight anyone 8 levels above you or below you, but the world had full open world pvp. Even someone who is 8 levels higher than you has a huge advantage, but not enough so where you can't escape, or at LEAST try something. There is far far less frustration there.
This is just an example.
What the pvp crowd SHOULD pay attention to, if they want to sustain the fun pvp elements of their choice game: focus on the community. Without the community, there is no player base for you to prey on. When everything in the game is geared to destroying the community (arche age cough cough) you start seeing a dwindling player base, and all that's left for pvpers to pvp is themselves.
So I guess, with what you are saying, it makes sense for many devs to build PVP type games because of the trickle down players eventually filling all the games? My one question would be, is "the niche" the same group for all games and in that case, would it not be a good idea for many devs to start creating these types of games? or is it more a race for these devs to see who wins (knowing there will be losers)?
Does it make sense to make PvP type games because of trickle down? Hm, no. Not in my opinion. I don't think each subsequent group is worth capturing as each game will have it's own runoff, so retention is questionable.
However, it IS a good idea to keep making these games for one simple reason: you never know when one will be a hit. DotA, LoL, Smite, CS, etc, sometimes people just like a game and it becomes big.
Meh, I don't see it as a race. People will always gravitate towards the better options (sorry WoW haters), just because a small vocal minority might dislike something doesn't mean that you can't visibly see trends and what people enjoy spending their time with. It's like the "real women" campaigns. It's a respectable goal to make people feel happy with who they are; but it's not going to change what people gravitate towards. You can't tell people to like something, they're just gonna like what they like.
...and all that's left for pvpers to pvp is themselves.
Oh, this just makes me frustrated. If you're playing a pvp game, you are a "pvper". There's none of this, "well I play the pvp game but I'm a crafter", "well, I play the pvp game but I'm a mascot". "Well I play the pvp game but I'm a bologna sandwich". No. No more of this. You're making up new rules to fit your argument and it's silly. Every person who plays a pvp game, (not a 'just consensual' pvp game, not just battleground or whatever you want to call the instances) knowing the game has open pvp, is a pvper!
No more of this "us vs them". You're a human. "The other guys" are human, regardless of how bestial you care to make them seem. You're all people playing a game, a pvp game. You know it, logging on, making a toon. There is no 'other guy who is a pvp guy' in a pvp game. If you are playing a pvp game, you are a pvp game player, or in short, a pvp'er. All you're doing with all of this is being a pvp'er with an identity crisis. lol. FFS if you don't like it, don't log on to a pvp game! Stop making dumb fake rules for everyone else. Your rules suck and they're as unnatural and twisted as a football bat. Knock it off!
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Ender4An MMORPG without open world PvP on at least one server is an automatic failure to me.
an MMORPG with forced open world pvp is an automatic failure to me.
And that is fine. I realize that you are the majority. All I ask is that they flag one server as PvP so that people like me can enjoy games as well. It doesn't require any more work than that and I'm perfectly fine with it. I look back on my 25 years of playing MMORPG including the MUD days before graphics and almost all of my fondest memories end up involving PvP of some type and not all were wins by my side.
Building a PvE game and throwing some silly instance in it for PvP and saying 'we have PvP' does not scratch the itch for a lot of players. Battlegrounds and keep trades are aimed at PvE players who want to PvP sometimes, they are not aimed at the PvP crowd.
...and all that's left for pvpers to pvp is themselves.
Oh, this just makes me frustrated. If you're playing a pvp game, you are a "pvper". There's none of this, "well I play the pvp game but I'm a crafter", "well, I play the pvp game but I'm a mascot". "Well I play the pvp game but I'm a bologna sandwich". No. No more of this. You're making up new rules to fit your argument and it's silly. Every person who plays a pvp game, (not a 'just consensual' pvp game, not just battleground or whatever you want to call the instances) knowing the game has open pvp, is a pvper!
No more of this "us vs them". You're a human. "The other guys" are human, regardless of how bestial you care to make them seem. You're all people playing a game, a pvp game. You know it, logging on, making a toon. There is no 'other guy who is a pvp guy' in a pvp game. If you are playing a pvp game, you are a pvp game player, or in short, a pvp'er. All you're doing with all of this is being a pvp'er with an identity crisis. lol. FFS if you don't like it, don't log on to a pvp game! Stop making dumb fake rules for everyone else. Your rules suck and they're as unnatural and twisted as a football bat. Knock it off!
You're confusing the point being made. The point is not PvP. The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with. Many players do not want to be forced to PvP. They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. So that whereas it is fine for PvE players to have "consensual" PvP in their games, OWPvP players do not want to return the favor to PvE players by allowing them to have have unmolested PvE. In other words, whereas it is ok with PvE players to have "consensual" PvP, with the OWPvP crowd it is forced PvP or nothing at all.
...and all that's left for pvpers to pvp is themselves.
Oh, this just makes me frustrated. If you're playing a pvp game, you are a "pvper". There's none of this, "well I play the pvp game but I'm a crafter", "well, I play the pvp game but I'm a mascot". "Well I play the pvp game but I'm a bologna sandwich". No. No more of this. You're making up new rules to fit your argument and it's silly. Every person who plays a pvp game, (not a 'just consensual' pvp game, not just battleground or whatever you want to call the instances) knowing the game has open pvp, is a pvper!
No more of this "us vs them". You're a human. "The other guys" are human, regardless of how bestial you care to make them seem. You're all people playing a game, a pvp game. You know it, logging on, making a toon. There is no 'other guy who is a pvp guy' in a pvp game. If you are playing a pvp game, you are a pvp game player, or in short, a pvp'er. All you're doing with all of this is being a pvp'er with an identity crisis. lol. FFS if you don't like it, don't log on to a pvp game! Stop making dumb fake rules for everyone else. Your rules suck and they're as unnatural and twisted as a football bat. Knock it off!
You're confusing the point being made. The point is not people joining an OWPvP and not wanting to PvP. The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with. Many players do not want forced PvP. They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. So that whereas it is fine for PvE players to have "consensual" PvP in their games, OWPvP players do not want to return the favor to PvE players by allowing them to have have unmolested PvE. In other words, whereas it is ok with PvE players to have "consensual" PvP, with the OWPvP crowd it is forced PvP or nothing at all.
wut? Come on. Don't play it, then. Simple. What is the point being made? If a game has open pvp, people who don't want to pvp can't contain themselves from buying the game and playing it?
"The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with."
What? What the hell, man. Are you doing a parody on my issue with developers who intentionally trigger impulsivity, like slot machines in casinos? I can show you relevant facts for this psychological manipulation. Are you saying there should be no open world pvp games, because psychologically, people who don't want to pvp just can't help themselves from buying it and trying to play it?
"They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. "
WHAT? They don't make the rules like that. Seriously, let me illustrate another point... they are still pvping! They can't or won't operate within the confines and structure of the game so they go all manipulative and take the whole fight outside the game and make people conform to their wishes! That is messed up! It's not a messed up opinion, like, it's different than mine, it is a messed up manipulative behavior. Sit down to play monopoly with someone, nope, sorry, you're not allowed to build houses or a hotel there because I might land there and I just can't flippin handle landing there today because my day was so long and stressful and the boss was an asshole and I just can't take it right now I'm going to...
stop it. no. bad. boop you on the nose. quit it. just don't buy the games.
...and all that's left for pvpers to pvp is themselves.
Oh, this just makes me frustrated. If you're playing a pvp game, you are a "pvper". There's none of this, "well I play the pvp game but I'm a crafter", "well, I play the pvp game but I'm a mascot". "Well I play the pvp game but I'm a bologna sandwich". No. No more of this. You're making up new rules to fit your argument and it's silly. Every person who plays a pvp game, (not a 'just consensual' pvp game, not just battleground or whatever you want to call the instances) knowing the game has open pvp, is a pvper!
No more of this "us vs them". You're a human. "The other guys" are human, regardless of how bestial you care to make them seem. You're all people playing a game, a pvp game. You know it, logging on, making a toon. There is no 'other guy who is a pvp guy' in a pvp game. If you are playing a pvp game, you are a pvp game player, or in short, a pvp'er. All you're doing with all of this is being a pvp'er with an identity crisis. lol. FFS if you don't like it, don't log on to a pvp game! Stop making dumb fake rules for everyone else. Your rules suck and they're as unnatural and twisted as a football bat. Knock it off!
You're confusing the point being made. The point is not people joining an OWPvP and not wanting to PvP. The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with. Many players do not want forced PvP. They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. So that whereas it is fine for PvE players to have "consensual" PvP in their games, OWPvP players do not want to return the favor to PvE players by allowing them to have have unmolested PvE. In other words, whereas it is ok with PvE players to have "consensual" PvP, with the OWPvP crowd it is forced PvP or nothing at all.
wut? Come on. Don't play it, then. Simple. What is the point being made? If a game has open pvp, people who don't want to pvp can't contain themselves from buying the game and playing it?
"The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with."
What? What the hell, man. Are you doing a parody on my issue with developers who intentionally trigger impulsivity, like slot machines in casinos? I can show you relevant facts for this psychological manipulation. Are you saying there should be no open world pvp games, because psychologically, people who don't want to pvp just can't help themselves from buying it and trying to play it?
"They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. "
WHAT? They don't make the rules like that. Seriously, let me illustrate another point... they are still pvping! They can't or won't operate within the confines and structure of the game so they go all manipulative and take the whole fight outside the game and make people conform to their wishes! That is messed up! It's not a messed up opinion, like, it's different than mine, it is a messed up manipulative behavior. Sit down to play monopoly with someone, nope, sorry, you're not allowed to build houses or a hotel there because I might land there and I just can't flippin handle landing there today because my day was so long and stressful and the boss was an asshole and I just can't take it right now I'm going to...
stop it. no. bad. boop you on the nose. quit it. just don't buy the games.
Relax dude.
Youre making this harder on yourself than it has to be. The PvE vs PvP debate for the PvE players has never been about not having any PvP at all. The argument has always been "consensual" PvP versus "non consensual" PvP, and it has always been during the development phase of a game, prior to its release. And that is because that is the time that everyone is fighting for the game to cater to their own preferences. Once a game has been released, it is King's X. A game is what it is, and those whom it does not cater to, after it has been released, will simply move along and not play.
I have never seen an argument where the PvE crowd is against any form of PvP. They are more than open to "consensual" PvP. Consensual PvP is inclusive. It is about affording a player options. There is nothing wrong with options. The more, the merrier. Non-consensual PvP, however, is exclusive. It limits options and forces a player to play a certain way.
There would be no debate if all games where designed as PvE with consensual PvP. None! No one is preventing developers from developing OWPvP, and players from playing them. They've been developed and released in the past. The OWPvP crowd plays them and PvE players stay away from them. That is not the issue. The debate is about having them at all.
My issue isn't that there are PVP games...let it be, Im good with PVP servers (as long as there are PVE servers too). My issue is what's trending right now with developers is nothing BUT open world PVP. Even The Repop does not have an ONLY PVE server. Crowfall, Black Desert, Albion...list goes on...all look like really interesting games, but are no go for me since it's forced PVP. It's a frustration thing.
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
I have 3 kids, a wife, am one of the top paid people in my field and strive to be the best everyday. I have enough accomplishment in real life to be able to relax to a fantasy video game.
Why does my life have to be bad for me to want to escape sometimes? I love my life but I also enjoy MMO's that dont force you to have to deal with the PVP crowd. Those games are becoming few and far between (any good ones) and there is a new wave of non-stop FFA PVP games being created.
As for your thoughts that you are not competing in real life...that's false for anyone who has the slightest success. Everyday I compete with myself. It's the only way to improve.
Everybody has missed my point...
I'm a PvP'er, which means I enjoy games with PvP. Doesn't matter what the PvP rulesets are, OWPvP, Battleground PvP, Full loot PvP, I enjoy them all. I also have a family so I really can't participate in Raids due to the fact that you need to have a large block of time dedicated to that event.
With that being said...
If I see a MMO that doesn't cater to my PvP needs or a MMO that is pretty heavy on raiding..
I don't buy them...
If I did happen to purchase such a game anyway, you would never see me on a internet forum complaining that Game X has "Forced Raiding" because I understand I bought a game with raiding in it.
...and all that's left for pvpers to pvp is themselves.
Oh, this just makes me frustrated. If you're playing a pvp game, you are a "pvper". There's none of this, "well I play the pvp game but I'm a crafter", "well, I play the pvp game but I'm a mascot". "Well I play the pvp game but I'm a bologna sandwich". No. No more of this. You're making up new rules to fit your argument and it's silly. Every person who plays a pvp game, (not a 'just consensual' pvp game, not just battleground or whatever you want to call the instances) knowing the game has open pvp, is a pvper!
No more of this "us vs them". You're a human. "The other guys" are human, regardless of how bestial you care to make them seem. You're all people playing a game, a pvp game. You know it, logging on, making a toon. There is no 'other guy who is a pvp guy' in a pvp game. If you are playing a pvp game, you are a pvp game player, or in short, a pvp'er. All you're doing with all of this is being a pvp'er with an identity crisis. lol. FFS if you don't like it, don't log on to a pvp game! Stop making dumb fake rules for everyone else. Your rules suck and they're as unnatural and twisted as a football bat. Knock it off!
You're confusing the point being made. The point is not people joining an OWPvP and not wanting to PvP. The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with. Many players do not want forced PvP. They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. So that whereas it is fine for PvE players to have "consensual" PvP in their games, OWPvP players do not want to return the favor to PvE players by allowing them to have have unmolested PvE. In other words, whereas it is ok with PvE players to have "consensual" PvP, with the OWPvP crowd it is forced PvP or nothing at all.
wut? Come on. Don't play it, then. Simple. What is the point being made? If a game has open pvp, people who don't want to pvp can't contain themselves from buying the game and playing it?
"The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with."
What? What the hell, man. Are you doing a parody on my issue with developers who intentionally trigger impulsivity, like slot machines in casinos? I can show you relevant facts for this psychological manipulation. Are you saying there should be no open world pvp games, because psychologically, people who don't want to pvp just can't help themselves from buying it and trying to play it?
"They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. "
WHAT? They don't make the rules like that. Seriously, let me illustrate another point... they are still pvping! They can't or won't operate within the confines and structure of the game so they go all manipulative and take the whole fight outside the game and make people conform to their wishes! That is messed up! It's not a messed up opinion, like, it's different than mine, it is a messed up manipulative behavior. Sit down to play monopoly with someone, nope, sorry, you're not allowed to build houses or a hotel there because I might land there and I just can't flippin handle landing there today because my day was so long and stressful and the boss was an asshole and I just can't take it right now I'm going to...
stop it. no. bad. boop you on the nose. quit it. just don't buy the games.
Relax dude.
Youre making this harder on yourself than it has to be. The PvE vs PvP debate for the PvE players has never been about not having any PvP at all. The argument has always been "consensual" PvP versus "non consensual" PvP, and it has always been during the development phase of a game, prior to its release. And that is because that is the time that everyone is fighting for the game to cater to their own preferences. Once a game has been released, it is King's X. A game is what it is, and those whom it does not cater to, after it has been released, will simply move along and not play.
I have never seen an argument where the PvE crowd is against any form of PvP. They are more than open to "consensual" PvP. Consensual PvP is inclusive. It is about affording a player options. There is nothing wrong with options. The more, the merrier. Non-consensual PvP, however, is exclusive. It limits options and forces a player to play a certain way.
There would be no debate if all games where designed as PvE with consensual PvP. None! No one is preventing developers from developing OWPvP, and players from playing them. They've been developed and released in the past. The OWPvP crowd plays them and PvE players stay away from them. That is not the issue. The debate is about having them at all.
There would otherwise be no debate.
First of all, it's incredibly naïve to say nobody complains or debates about optional PVP. In every game ever released since the beginning of time with optional PVP there has been plenty of crying from players who just don't want to get the hint. Don't want to die, don't go there! Don't want to get clone camped? Spawn somewhere else. These games are developed almost idiot proof these days and people will still complain that it's all too hard and inconvenient for them to stop playing for 2 minutes, think about what they're doing, and stop whatever it is that they're doing that got them killed. They will instead go back to that exact same spot, or do the exact same stupid thing and then whine when they die, again. It's the way it's always been with consensual PVP and the way it always will be.
Secondly, why is this even a debate about what games are being developed? Companies with the money and the expertise design the games, you as the consumer decided wether you want to buy them or not. And you're saying other people are making it harder on themselves than it has to be? [mod edit]
Complain that you are "forced" to sale... competitively?
If you are as active as I am in the real world, you can see that every aspect of life is competitive on some level. Games are NOT real life though...they are a break from that (at least for me). I like to have fun in a game...not be forced to not have fun. Do you get it now?
I don't think he's the one that has the issue getting it. The very nature and origin of games, of every variety, are competitive. They design all manner of games though that you can play by yourself, and even ones where you can cooperatively play with others to achieve some task. The whole concept behind MMO's however was that you are thrust into a server with thousands of other people and there will be a varying level of cooperation and competitiveness. Why should the genre need to change for people that take issue with that? Must we alter every established institution to accommodate those who are put off by the signature characteristics of it? Then it becomes something else entirely.
I also never got this "I compete in real life and play games to relax" mantra. That's just a pretty weak outlook. I'm not trying to compete with anyone in real life, I don't feel I have a damn thing to prove. But most of the human race wants to win when they play games, it's part of our culture and sub conscious, we want to be winners. But this whole idea that if you have a real life you spend your whole day being subject to an exhausting never ending competition is just a cop out and outright fallacy. Change your life maybe if it's that bad, don't change the game though.
I have 3 kids, a wife, am one of the top paid people in my field and strive to be the best everyday. I have enough accomplishment in real life to be able to relax to a fantasy video game.
Why does my life have to be bad for me to want to escape sometimes? I love my life but I also enjoy MMO's that dont force you to have to deal with the PVP crowd. Those games are becoming few and far between (any good ones) and there is a new wave of non-stop FFA PVP games being created.
As for your thoughts that you are not competing in real life...that's false for anyone who has the slightest success. Everyday I compete with myself. It's the only way to improve.
Everybody has missed my point...
I'm a PvP'er, which means I enjoy games with PvP. Doesn't matter what the PvP rulesets are, OWPvP, Battleground PvP, Full loot PvP, I enjoy them all. I also have a family so I really can't participate in Raids due to the fact that you need to have a large block of time dedicated to that event.
With that being said...
If I see a MMO that doesn't cater to my PvP needs or a MMO that is pretty heavy on raiding..
I don't buy them...
If I did happen to purchase such a game anyway, you would never see me on a internet forum complaining that Game X has "Forced Raiding" because I understand I bought a game with raiding in it.
I did interpret it incorrectly and apologize. I agree 100%.
Originally posted by Randayn My issue isn't that there are PVP games...let it be, Im good with PVP servers (as long as there are PVE servers too). My issue is what's trending right now with developers is nothing BUT open world PVP. Even The Repop does not have an ONLY PVE server. Crowfall, Black Desert, Albion...list goes on...all look like really interesting games, but are no go for me since it's forced PVP. It's a frustration thing.
Wow this complaint seems so odd to me. I'm not saying you are wrong but MMORPG have been so heavily PvE centric over the past 10 years that as someone who enjoys PvP I haven't been able to find any game to play because open PvP games are almost non existent at this point. If we are finally getting a wave of PvP focused games all I can say is about darn time because it has been nothing but PvE only for a long long time now.
I would say the same thing I said above but in reverse though. It shouldn't be hard for a game to flag one server as no PvP as long as the game makes some sort of sense flagged that way. Just like there is no reason a game like GW2 couldn't flag one server as PvP.
Originally posted by Randayn My issue isn't that there are PVP games...let it be, Im good with PVP servers (as long as there are PVE servers too). My issue is what's trending right now with developers is nothing BUT open world PVP. Even The Repop does not have an ONLY PVE server. Crowfall, Black Desert, Albion...list goes on...all look like really interesting games, but are no go for me since it's forced PVP. It's a frustration thing.
Wow this complaint seems so odd to me. I'm not saying you are wrong but MMORPG have been so heavily PvE centric over the past 10 years that as someone who enjoys PvP I haven't been able to find any game to play because open PvP games are almost non existent at this point. If we are finally getting a wave of PvP focused games all I can say is about darn time because it has been nothing but PvE only for a long long time now.
I would say the same thing I said above but in reverse though. It shouldn't be hard for a game to flag one server as no PvP as long as the game makes some sort of sense flagged that way. Just like there is no reason a game like GW2 couldn't flag one server as PvP.
I think the PVE'ers (at least me) are starting to feel the frustration PVP'ers were going through back when there was a drought for you.
i do wish that some of these games would have PVE only servers. I played RUST (not really an MMO) on a PVE server and although the entire basis of the game was PVP, it was very much so FUN for a PVE'er on a PVE server. I can only imagine some of the larger and more robust PVP MMO's being that much more fun for a PVE crowd on a PVE server.
Comments
Not fair or empirically true. More "us vs them" mentality. To paraphrase, "If you don't agree with me, there must be something wrong with you". Hey, man, I feel it, too, alot, and check myself. You need to do some checking. lol
I have 3 kids, a wife, am one of the top paid people in my field and strive to be the best everyday. I have enough accomplishment in real life to be able to relax to a fantasy video game.
Why does my life have to be bad for me to want to escape sometimes? I love my life but I also enjoy MMO's that dont force you to have to deal with the PVP crowd. Those games are becoming few and far between (any good ones) and there is a new wave of non-stop FFA PVP games being created.
As for your thoughts that you are not competing in real life...that's false for anyone who has the slightest success. Everyday I compete with myself. It's the only way to improve.
I did not mean to generalize. It is obviously not the case in all instances. It is, however, the fact in more cases than not.
I care about it as much as I do anything else that I spend a couple of thousand a year on I suppose. If I didn't care at all, don't see much of a point in doing it.
I don't care about pixelated items or who took "my" mob or if someone else can play their class or not. I see PVE'ers whinge incessantly about that kinda stuff all the time.
In my view, they're control freaks. PVP'ers for the most part just wanna mix it up, and that generally rubs the control freaks the wrong way. I wouldn't say one is more indifferent than the other though.
All i said was that you come across as arrogant and condscending (not that i was wrong). If that is 'rage hard' for you then i don't know what else to tell you.
My point is simple..why can't people disagree anymore without trying to put another person down? we are all different. Some of us want to relax while playing games others don't.
[mod edit]
Only because you keep telling me i am angry doesn't mean i am. [mod edit]
Why do you play MMO's again? go back to CoD...
Also, please stop criticizing people you don't know. You don't know who we are...and from your comments, you definitely don't know who I am.
No, I'm not competing in real life, at all. I got where I am today on my own merits, not by stepping over others. My company came to me and begged me to take promotions, I don't ladder climb or cut anyone's throat or anything like that. That kinda behaviour is just deplorable, and regardless of what anyone thinks about the world and how it operates, no you don't have to be like that. That's an excuse people use to justify underhanded behaviour.
Maybe those games are coming because people are tired or the same old shit. It's about time to be honest.
So you are saying I stepped on people to get where I am? I just stated that I only compete with myself. I am great (in my field) because I did the extra work and study that not many others did. Not by kissing ass and stepping on toes.
Back on track...let's try and keep with the topic...don't need another one of my posts being shutdown.
The producer (of UO and now Crowfall) said that PVP'ers left because they didnt have carebears to beat up on.
What are the PVP'ers thoughts on this?
I think it goes beyond that.
People who pursue these PvP games also want to be in the group of people that win or are good at that particular game, that's really where these games go south. Not everyone can be the best, so when the weakest leave, the next weakest group becomes the new prey. This process continues until a game has either reached equilibrium or has failed.
PvEers are the most obvious and natural prey, and they're first to leave. But then you have PvPers who would have liked the game if the easy pickings were still around. But once they've fallen down the food chain they no longer have fun because being prey isn't fun, the PvEers were their buffer.
It reminds me of WoW arena when Blizz made it tough to get points and rating (and of course gear). The groups that just got 10 losses a week quit right away, why bother queuing for points if you can't get points? But then you started to see the chain reaction, people who's rating was inflated because of those "10 loses for points" people all of a sudden were finding themselves as the new worst PvPers, and now they weren't getting points, or getting so few that it sucked the fun out for them. It was a bad season for many teams and the participation in Arenas plummeted.
Basically no one wants to be the whipping boy, but at the same time, no one wants to protect the whipping boy, they want him to exist for their amusement.
And that's how these games go, the invite everyone, the people who aren't the better players of that particular game just leave for another game they may be better at and the group above them moves down a rung. This process repeats until the core niche is formed (see: EVE/Darkfall) or the game just falls over.
Some people are just good at game and they'll find themselves being in the top of whatever they play. This group is rather small, but everyone likes to see themselves as being one of the good players so when/if they suck, they just chalk it up to "this game blows for reasons X, Y, Z". You have people who are great in WoW PvP, but terrible in GW2 and vice versa. Some are great at MOBA's while others just can't get there. Etc etc.
So I guess, with what you are saying, it makes sense for many devs to build PVP type games because of the trickle down players eventually filling all the games? My one question would be, is "the niche" the same group for all games and in that case, would it not be a good idea for many devs to start creating these types of games? or is it more a race for these devs to see who wins (knowing there will be losers)?
WTF is with mmo developers treating pvp in such a white and black setting. It's an either "All or nothing" situation, which leads them to have to create areas where pvp is restricted. The problem isn't pvp availability or not availability, the problem is that high leveled, or powerful characters have an unrestricted means of preying on super weak players.
And no, you cannot say it's skill when some level 60, goes out and kills some level 30-40. Most games' mechanics already make it so highest levels are exponentially more powerful than someone half their level.
So yes, players get frustrated. Even players who like pvp a lot, get frustrated. Can you blame them? There is nothing, literaly, nothing they can do.
EQ 1 had a great form of pvp: 8 level diffirence was the restriction, you can't fight anyone 8 levels above you or below you, but the world had full open world pvp. Even someone who is 8 levels higher than you has a huge advantage, but not enough so where you can't escape, or at LEAST try something. There is far far less frustration there.
This is just an example.
What the pvp crowd SHOULD pay attention to, if they want to sustain the fun pvp elements of their choice game: focus on the community. Without the community, there is no player base for you to prey on. When everything in the game is geared to destroying the community (arche age cough cough) you start seeing a dwindling player base, and all that's left for pvpers to pvp is themselves.
However, it IS a good idea to keep making these games for one simple reason: you never know when one will be a hit. DotA, LoL, Smite, CS, etc, sometimes people just like a game and it becomes big.
Meh, I don't see it as a race. People will always gravitate towards the better options (sorry WoW haters), just because a small vocal minority might dislike something doesn't mean that you can't visibly see trends and what people enjoy spending their time with. It's like the "real women" campaigns. It's a respectable goal to make people feel happy with who they are; but it's not going to change what people gravitate towards. You can't tell people to like something, they're just gonna like what they like.
Oh, this just makes me frustrated. If you're playing a pvp game, you are a "pvper". There's none of this, "well I play the pvp game but I'm a crafter", "well, I play the pvp game but I'm a mascot". "Well I play the pvp game but I'm a bologna sandwich". No. No more of this. You're making up new rules to fit your argument and it's silly. Every person who plays a pvp game, (not a 'just consensual' pvp game, not just battleground or whatever you want to call the instances) knowing the game has open pvp, is a pvper!
No more of this "us vs them". You're a human. "The other guys" are human, regardless of how bestial you care to make them seem. You're all people playing a game, a pvp game. You know it, logging on, making a toon. There is no 'other guy who is a pvp guy' in a pvp game. If you are playing a pvp game, you are a pvp game player, or in short, a pvp'er. All you're doing with all of this is being a pvp'er with an identity crisis. lol. FFS if you don't like it, don't log on to a pvp game! Stop making dumb fake rules for everyone else. Your rules suck and they're as unnatural and twisted as a football bat. Knock it off!
And that is fine. I realize that you are the majority. All I ask is that they flag one server as PvP so that people like me can enjoy games as well. It doesn't require any more work than that and I'm perfectly fine with it. I look back on my 25 years of playing MMORPG including the MUD days before graphics and almost all of my fondest memories end up involving PvP of some type and not all were wins by my side.
Building a PvE game and throwing some silly instance in it for PvP and saying 'we have PvP' does not scratch the itch for a lot of players. Battlegrounds and keep trades are aimed at PvE players who want to PvP sometimes, they are not aimed at the PvP crowd.
You're confusing the point being made. The point is not PvP. The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with. Many players do not want to be forced to PvP. They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. So that whereas it is fine for PvE players to have "consensual" PvP in their games, OWPvP players do not want to return the favor to PvE players by allowing them to have have unmolested PvE. In other words, whereas it is ok with PvE players to have "consensual" PvP, with the OWPvP crowd it is forced PvP or nothing at all.
wut? Come on. Don't play it, then. Simple. What is the point being made? If a game has open pvp, people who don't want to pvp can't contain themselves from buying the game and playing it?
"The point is having an OWPvP game to begin with."
What? What the hell, man. Are you doing a parody on my issue with developers who intentionally trigger impulsivity, like slot machines in casinos? I can show you relevant facts for this psychological manipulation. Are you saying there should be no open world pvp games, because psychologically, people who don't want to pvp just can't help themselves from buying it and trying to play it?
"They do not mind having PvP in their games. They will even partake in it when they are in the mood for it. What they do not want is to be bothered with PvP when they are in relax mode entertaining themselves with the PvE content offered by the game. "
WHAT? They don't make the rules like that. Seriously, let me illustrate another point... they are still pvping! They can't or won't operate within the confines and structure of the game so they go all manipulative and take the whole fight outside the game and make people conform to their wishes! That is messed up! It's not a messed up opinion, like, it's different than mine, it is a messed up manipulative behavior. Sit down to play monopoly with someone, nope, sorry, you're not allowed to build houses or a hotel there because I might land there and I just can't flippin handle landing there today because my day was so long and stressful and the boss was an asshole and I just can't take it right now I'm going to...
stop it. no. bad. boop you on the nose. quit it. just don't buy the games.
Relax dude.
Youre making this harder on yourself than it has to be. The PvE vs PvP debate for the PvE players has never been about not having any PvP at all. The argument has always been "consensual" PvP versus "non consensual" PvP, and it has always been during the development phase of a game, prior to its release. And that is because that is the time that everyone is fighting for the game to cater to their own preferences. Once a game has been released, it is King's X. A game is what it is, and those whom it does not cater to, after it has been released, will simply move along and not play.
I have never seen an argument where the PvE crowd is against any form of PvP. They are more than open to "consensual" PvP. Consensual PvP is inclusive. It is about affording a player options. There is nothing wrong with options. The more, the merrier. Non-consensual PvP, however, is exclusive. It limits options and forces a player to play a certain way.
There would be no debate if all games where designed as PvE with consensual PvP. None! No one is preventing developers from developing OWPvP, and players from playing them. They've been developed and released in the past. The OWPvP crowd plays them and PvE players stay away from them. That is not the issue. The debate is about having them at all.
There would otherwise be no debate.
Everybody has missed my point...
I'm a PvP'er, which means I enjoy games with PvP. Doesn't matter what the PvP rulesets are, OWPvP, Battleground PvP, Full loot PvP, I enjoy them all. I also have a family so I really can't participate in Raids due to the fact that you need to have a large block of time dedicated to that event.
With that being said...
If I see a MMO that doesn't cater to my PvP needs or a MMO that is pretty heavy on raiding..
I don't buy them...
If I did happen to purchase such a game anyway, you would never see me on a internet forum complaining that Game X has "Forced Raiding" because I understand I bought a game with raiding in it.
I hope this cleans up my point...
First of all, it's incredibly naïve to say nobody complains or debates about optional PVP. In every game ever released since the beginning of time with optional PVP there has been plenty of crying from players who just don't want to get the hint. Don't want to die, don't go there! Don't want to get clone camped? Spawn somewhere else. These games are developed almost idiot proof these days and people will still complain that it's all too hard and inconvenient for them to stop playing for 2 minutes, think about what they're doing, and stop whatever it is that they're doing that got them killed. They will instead go back to that exact same spot, or do the exact same stupid thing and then whine when they die, again. It's the way it's always been with consensual PVP and the way it always will be.
Secondly, why is this even a debate about what games are being developed? Companies with the money and the expertise design the games, you as the consumer decided wether you want to buy them or not. And you're saying other people are making it harder on themselves than it has to be? [mod edit]
I did interpret it incorrectly and apologize. I agree 100%.
Wow this complaint seems so odd to me. I'm not saying you are wrong but MMORPG have been so heavily PvE centric over the past 10 years that as someone who enjoys PvP I haven't been able to find any game to play because open PvP games are almost non existent at this point. If we are finally getting a wave of PvP focused games all I can say is about darn time because it has been nothing but PvE only for a long long time now.
I would say the same thing I said above but in reverse though. It shouldn't be hard for a game to flag one server as no PvP as long as the game makes some sort of sense flagged that way. Just like there is no reason a game like GW2 couldn't flag one server as PvP.
I think the PVE'ers (at least me) are starting to feel the frustration PVP'ers were going through back when there was a drought for you.
i do wish that some of these games would have PVE only servers. I played RUST (not really an MMO) on a PVE server and although the entire basis of the game was PVP, it was very much so FUN for a PVE'er on a PVE server. I can only imagine some of the larger and more robust PVP MMO's being that much more fun for a PVE crowd on a PVE server.