Yes, please. A lot of things were just great in EQ. In my opinion EQN was just a rip off of everything and I'm still waiting for EQ3 without atrocious Disney art style-no class-action combat.
However, the reason this is no longer the case is because of people who decided to get into mmorpgs and complain about everything that made it an mmorpg.
It would be like a bunch of people getting into the sport tennis but not liking the rackets so the change them out for bats. They don't like the court so they change it out for a field with bases. They continue to change it till what you have is no longer even tennis and instead you have baseball. This is essentially what happened to mmorpgs.
yeh .. because the original ideas of MMORPGs are not that entertaining to the target audiences. Hence the devs improve the designs for those they want to cater to.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Travel was great... once. The danger was great then easily you figured out how to bypass it. Community seemed great till you realized there were a lot of jerks in the game and no there was no significant server blacklist that even a significant part of the server paid attention to.
Most of the things i liked in eq i like in today's games as well.
But to each their own. We all have different likes and experiences.
Where the hell is "like", "approve", "+1" or something button?
Op, you sound like you like your memories, else you would play EQ stil..
Apparently you didn't read this...
Because it's not the same game it once was.
I have gone back. The game is still being played by many...it's on..IDK...like expansion #23 or so, but it's been changed to keep players. Mainly because it is a 16 year old MMORPG now, it is SERIOUSLY outdated. it's been revamped so much, yeah...it's a to different.
And after playing modern MMORPG's with MUCH MUCH improved combat and UI's...it just has no staying power anymore. it's mindnumbingly boring...and your paying for it too. Now as I said...if they brought a modern version of EQ1 with some of those modern enhancements without changing the original meat of it...I'd So be game.
I do read that all. If i recall you can play on a legacy thingie which unlock expansion after you complete previous/vanilla content.
Also, i dont get that sentence. I can play BG, Icewing Dale, Planescape without any mobs and still got awesome experience, without any UI "not being modern, fight boring".
As i said, i think you just got nice memories and inteded use nostalgia.
I do read that all. If i recall you can play on a legacy thingie which unlock expansion after you complete previous/vanilla content.
Also, i dont get that sentence. I can play BG, Icewing Dale, Planescape without any mobs and still got awesome experience, without any UI "not being modern, fight boring".
As i said, i think you just got nice memories and inteded use nostalgia.
The progression servers only happened twice (three times?) and was apparently unlocked pretty fast. People arguably continue to promote P99 but just like in live the community is fairly top heavy and on p99 also vicious (and small compared to live in it's heyday).
What you probably are not getting is that even with a modern UI and the niceties of today's MMOs there just is not the persistent draw / community. I intend to explain some of this later but the fact of the matter is the pacing and difficulty has shifted so drastically most of the MMOs we see now don't even resemble EQ, particularly in spirit.
However, the reason this is no longer the case is because of people who decided to get into mmorpgs and complain about everything that made it an mmorpg.
It would be like a bunch of people getting into the sport tennis but not liking the rackets so the change them out for bats. They don't like the court so they change it out for a field with bases. They continue to change it till what you have is no longer even tennis and instead you have baseball. This is essentially what happened to mmorpgs.
yeh .. because the original ideas of MMORPGs are not that entertaining to the target audiences. Hence the devs improve the designs for those they want to cater to.
Sounds like normal business practice to me.
You just post stuff to see your words. Many words, but so little to say.
They didn't change it to improve anything, they did it to appeal to a larger audience, and no longer their original "target audience." Everyone knows this. Once higher ups (Smedley) decided they wanted more, they changed it piece by piece. Many of the original devs that understood what was happening left. As soon as McQuaid, Butler and the other members of the original team left in 2001, the difference in the game is night and day and the contrast is even more pronounced from that point forward.
However, the reason this is no longer the case is because of people who decided to get into mmorpgs and complain about everything that made it an mmorpg.
It would be like a bunch of people getting into the sport tennis but not liking the rackets so the change them out for bats. They don't like the court so they change it out for a field with bases. They continue to change it till what you have is no longer even tennis and instead you have baseball. This is essentially what happened to mmorpgs.
yeh .. because the original ideas of MMORPGs are not that entertaining to the target audiences. Hence the devs improve the designs for those they want to cater to.
Sounds like normal business practice to me.
Funny thing is you just sort of repeated what I just said just in a different manner. So what is your point exactly? Are you a parrot? Need to repeat everything I say?
It's pretty obvious they are just changing the game to better fit the target audience. That doesn't make what I said false though. A different audience came in, and complained about everything that made it an mmorpg. The devs listened because it earns them more money.
So yes ... it is business as usual. As Dullahan said, your post has many words, but so little to say.
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Dullahan
You just post stuff to see your words. Many words, but so little to say.
They didn't change it to improve anything, they did it to appeal to a larger audience, and no longer their original "target audience."
wait .. appealing to a LARGER audience is not an improvement to their business?
Don't tell me you think reducing the audience is an improvement. I hope you don't run a business.
You are taking what he said out of context. When Dullahan said improve I am sure he wasn't talking about from a business perspective.
Getting more players and more money is obviously an improvement from a business perspective. I don't think anyone would disagree on that. Course that is hardly the point. But hey ... points are missed everyday. Those buggers always seem to fly above the heads of many people.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Travel was great... once. The danger was great then easily you figured out how to bypass it. Community seemed great till you realized there were a lot of jerks in the game and no there was no significant server blacklist that even a significant part of the server paid attention to.
Most of the things i liked in eq i like in today's games as well.
But to each their own. We all have different likes and experiences.
I enjoyed travel because it made the game HUGE. That feeling never got old for me. I could never easily bypass a bad pull, so that threat kept it exciting. I couldn't bypass the threat of adds walking down the dungeon corridor or enemy players jumping me in a dungeon on the PvP server either. Or the harsh death penalty that paid off in making things intense.
But as you said, to each their own. I wish I could find these things in today's MMOs. Most aren't even MMOs really though.
Yep. De-leveling or corpse runs did suck, but they definitely made you think of tactics, etc. But to me...even corpse runs took skill and were exciting. IDK how many times I'd be running in my birthday suit (For the most part) to where I died thinking of how I am going to get back to where I was and drag my corpse out and safely loot my gear. Had my hear racing while doing it too.
Or random named high level mobs or rare mobs wandering lower level zones. You had to be attentive to your surroundings. Not so much these days.
Yep, I loved all that stuff too. Ok well, not *loved* but I took it on the chin because it made everything more exciting. Sneaking into dungeon naked, praying that their were groups in there that had cleared a path. Getting help from a necro for a corpse summon. Your actions had weight, if you messed up there was a hefty price to pay. It is a lot like Eve, if you lose a nice ship it hurts, but the intensity draws you in.
It is totally understandable that some players would never want to do a corpse run, slow travel, slow levels or have XP loss on death. If your goal is to just kill monsters or complete a raid or quest, it makes sense, I get that. For me I need the difficulty, slower pace and intensity of early EQ 1. Unfortunately they removed a lot of these elements after Velious, or I would still be playing it.
The original post hit most things straight on the head. There are a lot of things missing from today as you pointed out, but let me point out something very obvious.
Games were originally designed for nerds. Intelligent people with imaginations. GAMES ARE NOW MADE FOR DUMB PEOPLE.
This is a simple fact that most people overlook and we can see the impact it has had on the industry. Dumb people making dumb games for dumb people. Lets make whirly twirly action mmo's with instances, no community, and make it free to play. They are all flash with no soul and for the most part are simply 3d levels with no real world design. They cater to casual players and build games for them, but wonder why a casual player leaves after a couple of months.... they are casual.
So lets get down to what this grand wall of text means. Make a game for hardcore players. Hardcore players are the ones who play their life away in a basement and most times sell your games. Hardcore players are the streamers, theorycrafters, and top 1% in every game that serve as an example for casual players. Make a pve game with a real expansive world then sprinkle in all the pvp you want on the side with special ruleset servers. Guess what... it worked then and it will work now. Give me a ton of unique classes... I don't care if they have 20 buttons and I don't care about having my combat look like god of war. I care about character progression, having a class that is an expression of my own personality, and killing really hard shit with lots of really cool people.
I'm not going to glorify Everquest because there is a lot of things that would be really hard for me to go back to; however if someone gave me a chance to play everquest with updated graphics, ui, and some simple quality of life updates.... well i would pay a 1000 bucks for that game and 50 bucks a month.
OP really covered all the bases. There was so much to love about this game. It was the real first "survival" game, and I get a similar feeling playing games like H1Z1, but without the progression to keep my interest.
To those who pretend avoiding dying was not a challenge, I stand in doubt of whether you actually played the original game. Even with gamma turned up, you often couldn't even see mobs coming towards you on dark or foggy nights. Vision augments and light source items/torches were a must. This is just another example of a major feature missing from the current client. Mobs also pathed on many zone walls, so that wasn't always a sure thing and it could also mean 5+ minute detours in a single zone.
Regardless of Brad McQuaids spotted past, I really hope Pantheon manages to pull through. Just read the tenets and features or listen to the latest roundtable and you know, without a doubt, that game is being designed with the exact same principles as EQ with many new features of the same spirit.
You are taking what he said out of context. When Dullahan said improve I am sure he wasn't talking about from a business perspective.
Getting more players and more money is obviously an improvement from a business perspective. I don't think anyone would disagree on that. Course that is hardly the point. But hey ... points are missed everyday. Those buggers always seem to fly above the heads of many people.
That is .. of course ... assuming there is an actual point of talking about an old game aside from having some fun doing it.
Well, I like everything the op has to say. It will fall on deaf ears.
But, you missed the one most important thing. The reason mmo's are failing is because the lack of passion for the game on the development end.
In the dawn of the MMORPG, the developers saw a chance to make something that not many people have ever seen before. So the canvas was completely blank and they had the space to just let their mind go in any direction it wanted. Now their hands are tied.
Now a mmo takes so much money to get off the ground, you have to get someone to invest. Problem is no company is going to invest in a game that doesn't meet criteria, a, b, c. So now instead of having an adventure mmo like EQ or vanilla WoW, you now must have an adventure MMO, with PVP, an auction house, housing, customizable UI, several different control configurations and 10 languages. It must have support before it even becomes a thought.
Then if an mmo doesn't have all the features of the last mmo, the toxic flooding of the forums before the game even comes out ensues. The community is screaming 1000 different things (BTW, FTP, SUB MODEL/PVP, NO PVP, PVP SERVERS). This game is going to fail if it doesn't have my favorite class/feature. So the mmo artist is basically persuaded in his vision to please his community.
Now, gamers have a certain expectation of what the game should be as opposed to enjoying the game for what it is.
If someone told da Vinci how to paint the Mona Lisa, first they would have used a different model. Then probably would have told him that there is a painter in Italy that uses a more abstract approach. Then you would have someone saying that it needs to be a dude that looks like a woman, instead of a woman that looks like a dude. Pretty soon, why would you ever be passionate about what the hell you are painting? This is why MMOs are failing. Developers are waking up for a job every morning instead of realizing a vision.
Regardless of Brad McQuaids spotted past, I really hope Pantheon manages to pull through. Just read the tenets and features or listen to the latest roundtable and you know, without a doubt, that game is being designed with the exact same principles as EQ with many new features of the same spirit.
Really .. is taking-a-number camping making a come-back? I would love to see how many would want to do that.
BTW, thank you for the info. Now I know I don't have to waste a single min on Pantheon .. even if it is f2p.
Regardless of Brad McQuaids spotted past, I really hope Pantheon manages to pull through. Just read the tenets and features or listen to the latest roundtable and you know, without a doubt, that game is being designed with the exact same principles as EQ with many new features of the same spirit.
Really .. is taking-a-number camping making a come-back? I would love to see how many would want to do that.
BTW, thank you for the info. Now I know I don't have to waste a single min on Pantheon .. even if it is f2p.
np. Think its time for you to queue up for some instances for some instant gratification. Don't forget to follow the highlighted paths between quest zones and look for the giant exclamation points.
I think most of old school FFXI feel the same way.I have actually given up hope on these new VERY fast rushed cheap game designs,so i went back to play some FFXI.
As for EQ1 i never really adhered to their systems,as you said yes some ideas were great but i preferred ffxi much more.
The way i felt back then that EQ1 was just not good enough to win me over,i still preferred my fps's Quake and Unreal,However when FFXI came along i was really hooked a game very close to what i wanted in a mmorpg.
Now a days it is impossible to feel exploration because all the games are on rails,heck you don't even need a world because it's all about chasing around yellow markers,the npc's really don't even matter.
Then after playing connect the dots,these new END GAME gimmicks are again nothing to do with a RPG.With end game instances you again don't even need a world,.just click auto dungeon finder.I would say these new designs are extremely close to nothing more than lobby games and YES WOW is one of those.
The MMO aspect grouping and interacting with other players should happen in the MMO world,not via some mechanic that acts like a lobby.I am not the least surprised though because even before i had any idea of Blizzard's popularity,i thought their games were rubbish,i never considered any of them as playable.The ONLY reason thta design became popular is $$$$$,every dev saw dollar signs and jumped on the bandwagon,NOT because the game design made any sense at all,they just saw cha ching.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
np. Think its time for you to queue up for some instances for some instant gratification. Don't forget to follow the highlighted paths between quest zones and look for the giant exclamation points.
Quest with exclamation points are so yesterday.
The new quick 15 min dungeon runs have no quests, and only bounty and rewards .... there is no need to be pretentious that there is a story.
Both D3, Marvel Heroes and Warframe have nice dungeon runs in different combat gameplay.
And oh .. it is not time to do the 15 min dungeons yet .. posting here is even MORE instantly gratifying since it only takes 15 seconds, instead of 15 min. You should have realize that .. otherwise, why would i be here?
np. Think its time for you to queue up for some instances for some instant gratification. Don't forget to follow the highlighted paths between quest zones and look for the giant exclamation points.
Quest with exclamation points are so yesterday.
The new quick 15 min dungeon runs have no quests, and only bounty and rewards .... there is no need to be pretentious that there is a story.
Both D3, Marvel Heroes and Warframe have nice dungeon runs in different combat gameplay.
And oh .. it is not time to do the 15 min dungeons yet .. posting here is even MORE instantly gratifying since it only takes 15 seconds, instead of 15 min. You should have realize that .. otherwise, why would i be here?
The fact that you're reference games like d3 and marvel heroes on this thread just proves to me that you simply have no real input. The games we want to play were never designed for you; so please go watch your real housewives and leave us alone.
I think most of old school FFXI feel the same way.I have actually given up hope on these new VERY fast rushed cheap game designs,so i went back to play some FFXI.
As for EQ1 i never really adhered to their systems,as you said yes some ideas were great but i preferred ffxi much more.
The way i felt back then that EQ1 was just not good enough to win me over,i still preferred my fps's Quake and Unreal,However when FFXI came along i was really hooked a game very close to what i wanted in a mmorpg.
Now a days it is impossible to feel exploration because all the games are on rails,heck you don't even need a world because it's all about chasing around yellow markers,the npc's really don't even matter.
Then after playing connect the dots,these new END GAME gimmicks are again nothing to do with a RPG.With end game instances you again don't even need a world,.just click auto dungeon finder.I would say these new designs are extremely close to nothing more than lobby games and YES WOW is one of those.
The MMO aspect grouping and interacting with other players should happen in the MMO world,not via some mechanic that acts like a lobby.I am not the least surprised though because even before i had any idea of Blizzard's popularity,i thought their games were rubbish,i never considered any of them as playable.The ONLY reason thta design became popular is $$$$$,every dev saw dollar signs and jumped on the bandwagon,NOT because the game design made any sense at all,they just saw cha ching.
World of Warcraft was originally designed with hardcore players in mind and it modeled itself off Everquest. This abomination that is WoW today is what happens when you advertise on MTV and turn over the team to a guy like ghostcrawler who basically gutted the game for hardcore players. Now instead of putting content in games they simply put up gating mechanisms so that hardcore players can progress faster than casual players.
I think most of old school FFXI feel the same way.I have actually given up hope on these new VERY fast rushed cheap game designs,so i went back to play some FFXI.
As for EQ1 i never really adhered to their systems,as you said yes some ideas were great but i preferred ffxi much more.
The way i felt back then that EQ1 was just not good enough to win me over,i still preferred my fps's Quake and Unreal,However when FFXI came along i was really hooked a game very close to what i wanted in a mmorpg.
Now a days it is impossible to feel exploration because all the games are on rails,heck you don't even need a world because it's all about chasing around yellow markers,the npc's really don't even matter.
Then after playing connect the dots,these new END GAME gimmicks are again nothing to do with a RPG.With end game instances you again don't even need a world,.just click auto dungeon finder.I would say these new designs are extremely close to nothing more than lobby games and YES WOW is one of those.
The MMO aspect grouping and interacting with other players should happen in the MMO world,not via some mechanic that acts like a lobby.I am not the least surprised though because even before i had any idea of Blizzard's popularity,i thought their games were rubbish,i never considered any of them as playable.The ONLY reason thta design became popular is $$$$$,every dev saw dollar signs and jumped on the bandwagon,NOT because the game design made any sense at all,they just saw cha ching.
World of Warcraft was originally designed with hardcore players in mind and it modeled itself off Everquest. This abomination that is WoW today is what happens when you advertise on MTV and turn over the team to a guy like ghostcrawler who basically gutted the game for hardcore players. Now instead of putting content in games they simply put up gating mechanisms so that hardcore players can progress faster than casual players.
From what I've heard (And I could be wrong on this), WoW was modeled off of Warhammer. Somewhere I heard or read (Been awhile and can't recall exactly) that Blizzard bought the story rights to the Warhammer franchise and just switched some things around to make it their own.
Vanilla WoW was pretty good. It had to be for me to stick around for over 2 years. But there came a point where they started caving to the whiners and they got greedy and it all went to crap.
Funny thing is years ago I made jokes that eventually they'd let you start at level cap, with all epic gear, an epic mount, and 10k in gold....just to see it (At least the "Start at lvl 90") come true. It's hilarious.
np. Think its time for you to queue up for some instances for some instant gratification. Don't forget to follow the highlighted paths between quest zones and look for the giant exclamation points.
Quest with exclamation points are so yesterday.
The new quick 15 min dungeon runs have no quests, and only bounty and rewards .... there is no need to be pretentious that there is a story.
Both D3, Marvel Heroes and Warframe have nice dungeon runs in different combat gameplay.
And oh .. it is not time to do the 15 min dungeons yet .. posting here is even MORE instantly gratifying since it only takes 15 seconds, instead of 15 min. You should have realize that .. otherwise, why would i be here?
Nari...we are talking about MMORPG's in this thread. Neither of the games you mentioned are an MMORPG.
And remarking to an earlier post in this thread where you wondered why people talk about an older game..it's because it was good enough to remember and want to talk about...plus, I , as well as others here were referring to the portions of said games we'd like to see brought back to MMORPG's. Not that we want the same exact game, because believe me, they are plenty of aspects of EQ1 I don't want to see back. But the stuff that made them MMORPG's....mixed with many of todays modern MMORPG's.
You touched on it but i would go further by not adding an auto group button for Raids and Parties and force players to interact together again or search out guilds.
Outlaw guild systems like what ESO has, the cross guild system kills a players loyalty to their tag
Make the game a player driver economy so crafters need to peddle their wares through interaction only or lightening up Zone chat.
When adding something modern into the game go with a non tab target system, players game styles have evolved and this is one of the few positive aspects in our modern MMO's that i think is positive
You touched on it but i would go further by not adding an auto group button for Raids and Parties and force players to interact together again or search out guilds.
Outlaw guild systems like what ESO has, the cross guild system kills a players loyalty to their tag
Make the game a player driver economy so crafters need to peddle their wares through interaction only or lightening up Zone chat.
When adding something modern into the game go with a non tab target system, players game styles have evolved and this is one of the few positive aspects in our modern MMO's that i think is positive
Also very good points I didn't touch on.
Although a centralized bazaar like EQ had later in it's life wasn't that bad of an idea. Especially if when you were ready to log, you could set your character up in a stall with a personalized vendor message and price items and the character remained, but controlled via the games AI system while you were offline.
Would add to the game, and make it so you didn't have to sit for hours at a stall vending instead of out crafting or adventuring. Although I did enjoy doing that as well.
But yeah...it was nice to see players set up shop in unusual places to peddle wares.
Also very good points I didn't touch on. Although a centralized bazaar like EQ had later in it's life wasn't that bad of an idea. Especially if when you were ready to log, you could set your character up in a stall with a personalized vendor message and price items and the character remained, but controlled via the games AI system while you were offline.
Would add to the game, and make it so you didn't have to sit for hours at a stall vending instead of out crafting or adventuring. Although I did enjoy doing that as well.
But yeah...it was nice to see players set up shop in unusual places to peddle wares.
I'd be happy with something that meets the middle ground here.
I actually liked both systems. I know when EC/GFay players peddled/bartered their wares it created a very particular and unique atmosphere that was markedly humanistic and only contributed further to community emergence.
Conversely I cannot deny the nuisance of maintaining inventory and devoting time toward selling items. However this also meant rarer item transactions had an intrinsic value brought forth from opportunity.
Very common items, crafting items in particular, don't seem to fall too well into the above category. (edit: eat my words there i did make a fuck ton of money selling silk as a lowbie) Why can't world vendors just keep track of supply and demand on what items are sold and bought by them and adjust the prices accordingly? I suppose this could be abused in some manner but it certainly is an idea for things that become trivial but useful to players.
As another poster pointed out, new players will wonder what on earth is the OP getting at? They have only ever experienced easymode tinyMMOs. You might as well be speaking a foreign language. You could try WoW, ESO or FF to give you some idea, but it is hard to get lost in those games. MMOs that seem to be designed to play on a smartphone are the norm.
....but it's really not. There are just SOME things from old EQ1 I wish were back in modern MMORPG's. Notice I capped the word some, not everything.
This will sound dorky, and it is, but I loved to get lost in the EQ world. Not "OMG, where the hell am I?!?" lost, but saturated in it, become another person/character in another world, and EQ1 did that for me unlike any MMORPG I've played since then. It was alive, and it allowed me to escape the drudges of RL and imagine, just as tabletop games did (Personally played D&D and Rifts).
Personally, I didn't RP much in EQ1...I did a bit, but not as much as many others did. But I LOVED that others did, and it didn't bother me at all...it actually immersed me even more in the environment.
What set it apart from almost all MMORPG's today, or at least the ones I've tried, which is A LOT of them is...
*(I'll address each colored section in regards to modern MMORPG's at the end of the EQ1 love blathering)*
- The huge open world ( I say open, although most of us know it was zoned...but still vast open expanses within those zones). A lot of zones had large level ranges, adding to the danger and excitement. I recall many times traveling and running into red mobs well above my level range...in the middle of zones meant for my level range.
- Quests/Epic Quests. The quests...most of the time, gave little detail. It made you have to find the location. Epic quests were just that...EPIC! You needed a good Guild, or group of friends to do parts of it to get a step closer to receiving your Epic Weapons for your specific class, which, took you all over the world.
- The danger. And there was plenty of it, despite what some may say. Get through Kithicor forest at night in one piece, Highhold Pass, Paludal Caverns, Crystal Caverns, Desert of Ro, and MANY other places in EQ1 then tell me there is no danger. Hell! Corpse runs!
Sure, they could suck at times...but if you knew the areas and were in trouble, you knew where you could go to die (if it was going to happen) to make the corpse run easier on yourself. Things like corpse runs, or even just barely being into a level and dying...hence de-leveling...making gear you may of been wearing suddenly unwearable made you think about your actions more.
- This is the biggest one of them all on this list...the COMMUNITY! It actually had one. People knew each other. Players that caused issues were know throughout the server via word of mouth, and usually blacklisted from anything and everything. They straightened up, or left the server eventually. Yeah...there were those that didn't care and still acted a fool...but really, nowhere near to the level in today's MMORPG's. I still have friends, yes...friends I stay in contact with from my EQ1 days. Even play other games together.
It was pretty cool to see players make their own vendor areas (Prior to the Bazaar) like in the tunnels between Desert of Ro and East Commonlands and peddle their wares, or even just sit around and chat.
"Selling bat wings at T1! 10cp a stack!"
I use to sit with my high level in noob zones, like Kelethin and shout I was giving buffs at a particular spot. I didn't charge money, but did it to be nice. Give away armor and weapons, beneficial foods and potions...even have games to get them as rewards. And MANY people did things like that, all the time.
Groups were essential. yeah, you COULD solo in EQ1...despite what some may say, but grouping was where it was at. I made a lot of good friends in groups. And it was a nice change of pace to have meditation periods to regain mana/health and just chat amongst yourselves about whatever.
- Leveling. Leveling took awhile in EQ1. Hell, I played religiously for 5 years...it took me my first full year to get to the level cap. Now yeah...starting a new character it became easier and faster to level up...but it still took time. And because of that...higher level characters were given a lot of respect and looked up to for advice, etc. it took a LOT of time and effort to get there.
- The travel. Believe it or not, I liked the long travel times. It made the world feel vast. You learned short cuts and the safest ways through zones. There were some quicker ways to travel (Pre-PoP)...like Spirit of Wolf (SoW), or a wizard teleport, but beyond that, you were hoofin it.
Which btw...was another great aspect...player/class specific beneficial spells that weren't necessarily a necessity, but a convenience that were sought by other classes. And it lent to the intrigue of playing particular classes.
These things, for the most part, are missing from modern MMORPG's. And personally, I feel this is why they fail to attract and retain players. Modern MMORPG's (Most, not all)...
- World. Yes, some DO have large worlds. But they are on rails for the most part. You are funneled from one area to the next...almost in a straight line. You are told exactly where to go and what to do. And even given map GPS in most cases, doing away with the excitement, intrigue, and satisfaction of discovery. But this is also hampered by another aspect...travel, which I'll get back to further down the list.
- What can I say about this. They really haven't changed a whole lot. You still have the "Collect X amount of this", "Kill X amount of that" types to this day.
However, as I said above, the one difference is the stories behind them, and the scale of them. Now a days, you get a quest and the area needed is within spitting distance. Quests feel like a necessary evil just to level to get to "endgame" (Another subject for another thread), or just an after thought. Where are the Epic quests that make it feel more RPG?
- There is danger in today's MMORPG's, but not quite like the EQ1 or even UO days. You can take on multiple mobs with little trouble now a days. And most possible danger is negated by the various fast travel modes available. I just don't feel, personally, the level of danger in today's MMORPG's are on par with EQ1, and especially the UO days.
- Community. Almost non-existent in modern MMORPG's. And this is for various reasons I feel. First is the huge level of soloability present in them. You don't need anyone to do almost anything. IDK how many times I've looked for groups and couldn't find one. But then discover I didn't need one after all when I am pretty much forced to go it alone. This also goes with the "danger" area. There isn't much when you can do this...I mean solo with such ease. Even when you do manage to get a group...no one talks, or talk very little beyond objectives, the robotic tactics to take down whatever you are going after, or to call you a noob, etc if you dare make a mistake. When the objective is met, some even leave the rest of the group in the bad areas and leave the group. FEW ask what other quests members of the group may have to continue on.
Even clans/guilds...or whatever they may be called in a particular game, are nothing more than outlets to get that new shiney. I've been in guilds where no one really helped each other beyond raids or quests. Few help just to be nice, unless there is something in it for them personally. And nearly no one had pride in their respective guilds beyond being "elite" (1337).
- Leveling. An after thought. A means to an end. In most MMORPG's today, you can get to cap in a couple of weeks. Some even within days! High levels are a dime a dozen...so they aren't anything special. This is why in a lot of the MMORPG's today you see massive groups of high levels sitting idle in major hubs. Nothing to do, nowhere to go...and most skipped gobs of content in their race to cap....and are usually the ones complaining on forums or even in-game there is no content. It's crazy!
- Travel. Today's means of travel in MMORPG's is almost completely instant, destroying discovery or the feeling of a vast world.
You know why the world feels empty and useless? Because nearly everyone fast travels,because today's MMORPG's are rat races to get to cap or "endgame"...a term that should not exist in MMORPG's. No one takes the time to appreciate the worlds created for them to play in.
I feel MMORPG's today are not really MMORPG's at all. They are more MMSPG's that companies pass off as MMORPG's. Sure...there are other players you see on occasion, but they are more like AI/fluff than anything else.
Personally? Achievements, stat boards/leader boards, over use of instances and instant travel, over use of soloability (soloing is ok, but wow is it over the top now), emphasis on "endgame", ease of getting to cap, allowing almost all classes to do everything..hence killing the need for interdependence all have killed MMORPG's for me, and I am sure for many other too.
If they could bring back most of the stuff mentioned at the beginning of my LONG post of blathering, but with the elements of modern MMORPG's such as, the UI's, battle (EQ1's was HORRIBLY bland and boring. Hit attack, stand and watch and hope for high hit to miss ratios), graphics, creative boss encounters..amongst many other modern ideas that I actually welcome and love...they would have me for YEARS and I'd happily fork over $15 a month...hell...even $20 or $30 a month if done right.
Ok...now discuss...and try not to troll or name call. This is a discussion board after all and people are entitled to their opinions and ideas....or in this case...dreams.
In short: you want a vibrant "online world filled with lore" and you do not want to be spoonfed by the devs or the game made too easy.
You sir, like us, are outnumbered by the people who want instant gratification.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Comments
yeh .. because the original ideas of MMORPGs are not that entertaining to the target audiences. Hence the devs improve the designs for those they want to cater to.
Sounds like normal business practice to me.
I do read that all. If i recall you can play on a legacy thingie which unlock expansion after you complete previous/vanilla content.
Also, i dont get that sentence. I can play BG, Icewing Dale, Planescape without any mobs and still got awesome experience, without any UI "not being modern, fight boring".
As i said, i think you just got nice memories and inteded use nostalgia.
The progression servers only happened twice (three times?) and was apparently unlocked pretty fast. People arguably continue to promote P99 but just like in live the community is fairly top heavy and on p99 also vicious (and small compared to live in it's heyday).
What you probably are not getting is that even with a modern UI and the niceties of today's MMOs there just is not the persistent draw / community. I intend to explain some of this later but the fact of the matter is the pacing and difficulty has shifted so drastically most of the MMOs we see now don't even resemble EQ, particularly in spirit.
You just post stuff to see your words. Many words, but so little to say.
They didn't change it to improve anything, they did it to appeal to a larger audience, and no longer their original "target audience." Everyone knows this. Once higher ups (Smedley) decided they wanted more, they changed it piece by piece. Many of the original devs that understood what was happening left. As soon as McQuaid, Butler and the other members of the original team left in 2001, the difference in the game is night and day and the contrast is even more pronounced from that point forward.
wait .. appealing to a LARGER audience is not an improvement to their business?
Don't tell me you think reducing the audience is an improvement. I hope you don't run a business.
Funny thing is you just sort of repeated what I just said just in a different manner. So what is your point exactly? Are you a parrot? Need to repeat everything I say?
It's pretty obvious they are just changing the game to better fit the target audience. That doesn't make what I said false though. A different audience came in, and complained about everything that made it an mmorpg. The devs listened because it earns them more money.
So yes ... it is business as usual. As Dullahan said, your post has many words, but so little to say.
You are taking what he said out of context. When Dullahan said improve I am sure he wasn't talking about from a business perspective.
Getting more players and more money is obviously an improvement from a business perspective. I don't think anyone would disagree on that. Course that is hardly the point. But hey ... points are missed everyday. Those buggers always seem to fly above the heads of many people.
Yep, I loved all that stuff too. Ok well, not *loved* but I took it on the chin because it made everything more exciting. Sneaking into dungeon naked, praying that their were groups in there that had cleared a path. Getting help from a necro for a corpse summon. Your actions had weight, if you messed up there was a hefty price to pay. It is a lot like Eve, if you lose a nice ship it hurts, but the intensity draws you in.
It is totally understandable that some players would never want to do a corpse run, slow travel, slow levels or have XP loss on death. If your goal is to just kill monsters or complete a raid or quest, it makes sense, I get that. For me I need the difficulty, slower pace and intensity of early EQ 1. Unfortunately they removed a lot of these elements after Velious, or I would still be playing it.
The original post hit most things straight on the head. There are a lot of things missing from today as you pointed out, but let me point out something very obvious.
Games were originally designed for nerds. Intelligent people with imaginations. GAMES ARE NOW MADE FOR DUMB PEOPLE.
This is a simple fact that most people overlook and we can see the impact it has had on the industry. Dumb people making dumb games for dumb people. Lets make whirly twirly action mmo's with instances, no community, and make it free to play. They are all flash with no soul and for the most part are simply 3d levels with no real world design. They cater to casual players and build games for them, but wonder why a casual player leaves after a couple of months.... they are casual.
So lets get down to what this grand wall of text means. Make a game for hardcore players. Hardcore players are the ones who play their life away in a basement and most times sell your games. Hardcore players are the streamers, theorycrafters, and top 1% in every game that serve as an example for casual players. Make a pve game with a real expansive world then sprinkle in all the pvp you want on the side with special ruleset servers. Guess what... it worked then and it will work now. Give me a ton of unique classes... I don't care if they have 20 buttons and I don't care about having my combat look like god of war. I care about character progression, having a class that is an expression of my own personality, and killing really hard shit with lots of really cool people.
I'm not going to glorify Everquest because there is a lot of things that would be really hard for me to go back to; however if someone gave me a chance to play everquest with updated graphics, ui, and some simple quality of life updates.... well i would pay a 1000 bucks for that game and 50 bucks a month.
OP really covered all the bases. There was so much to love about this game. It was the real first "survival" game, and I get a similar feeling playing games like H1Z1, but without the progression to keep my interest.
To those who pretend avoiding dying was not a challenge, I stand in doubt of whether you actually played the original game. Even with gamma turned up, you often couldn't even see mobs coming towards you on dark or foggy nights. Vision augments and light source items/torches were a must. This is just another example of a major feature missing from the current client. Mobs also pathed on many zone walls, so that wasn't always a sure thing and it could also mean 5+ minute detours in a single zone.
Regardless of Brad McQuaids spotted past, I really hope Pantheon manages to pull through. Just read the tenets and features or listen to the latest roundtable and you know, without a doubt, that game is being designed with the exact same principles as EQ with many new features of the same spirit.
That is .. of course ... assuming there is an actual point of talking about an old game aside from having some fun doing it.
Well, I like everything the op has to say. It will fall on deaf ears.
But, you missed the one most important thing. The reason mmo's are failing is because the lack of passion for the game on the development end.
In the dawn of the MMORPG, the developers saw a chance to make something that not many people have ever seen before. So the canvas was completely blank and they had the space to just let their mind go in any direction it wanted. Now their hands are tied.
Now a mmo takes so much money to get off the ground, you have to get someone to invest. Problem is no company is going to invest in a game that doesn't meet criteria, a, b, c. So now instead of having an adventure mmo like EQ or vanilla WoW, you now must have an adventure MMO, with PVP, an auction house, housing, customizable UI, several different control configurations and 10 languages. It must have support before it even becomes a thought.
Then if an mmo doesn't have all the features of the last mmo, the toxic flooding of the forums before the game even comes out ensues. The community is screaming 1000 different things (BTW, FTP, SUB MODEL/PVP, NO PVP, PVP SERVERS). This game is going to fail if it doesn't have my favorite class/feature. So the mmo artist is basically persuaded in his vision to please his community.
Now, gamers have a certain expectation of what the game should be as opposed to enjoying the game for what it is.
If someone told da Vinci how to paint the Mona Lisa, first they would have used a different model. Then probably would have told him that there is a painter in Italy that uses a more abstract approach. Then you would have someone saying that it needs to be a dude that looks like a woman, instead of a woman that looks like a dude. Pretty soon, why would you ever be passionate about what the hell you are painting? This is why MMOs are failing. Developers are waking up for a job every morning instead of realizing a vision.
Really .. is taking-a-number camping making a come-back? I would love to see how many would want to do that.
BTW, thank you for the info. Now I know I don't have to waste a single min on Pantheon .. even if it is f2p.
np. Think its time for you to queue up for some instances for some instant gratification. Don't forget to follow the highlighted paths between quest zones and look for the giant exclamation points.
Well OP...
I think most of old school FFXI feel the same way.I have actually given up hope on these new VERY fast rushed cheap game designs,so i went back to play some FFXI.
As for EQ1 i never really adhered to their systems,as you said yes some ideas were great but i preferred ffxi much more.
The way i felt back then that EQ1 was just not good enough to win me over,i still preferred my fps's Quake and Unreal,However when FFXI came along i was really hooked a game very close to what i wanted in a mmorpg.
Now a days it is impossible to feel exploration because all the games are on rails,heck you don't even need a world because it's all about chasing around yellow markers,the npc's really don't even matter.
Then after playing connect the dots,these new END GAME gimmicks are again nothing to do with a RPG.With end game instances you again don't even need a world,.just click auto dungeon finder.I would say these new designs are extremely close to nothing more than lobby games and YES WOW is one of those.
The MMO aspect grouping and interacting with other players should happen in the MMO world,not via some mechanic that acts like a lobby.I am not the least surprised though because even before i had any idea of Blizzard's popularity,i thought their games were rubbish,i never considered any of them as playable.The ONLY reason thta design became popular is $$$$$,every dev saw dollar signs and jumped on the bandwagon,NOT because the game design made any sense at all,they just saw cha ching.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Quest with exclamation points are so yesterday.
The new quick 15 min dungeon runs have no quests, and only bounty and rewards .... there is no need to be pretentious that there is a story.
Both D3, Marvel Heroes and Warframe have nice dungeon runs in different combat gameplay.
And oh .. it is not time to do the 15 min dungeons yet .. posting here is even MORE instantly gratifying since it only takes 15 seconds, instead of 15 min. You should have realize that .. otherwise, why would i be here?
The fact that you're reference games like d3 and marvel heroes on this thread just proves to me that you simply have no real input. The games we want to play were never designed for you; so please go watch your real housewives and leave us alone.
World of Warcraft was originally designed with hardcore players in mind and it modeled itself off Everquest. This abomination that is WoW today is what happens when you advertise on MTV and turn over the team to a guy like ghostcrawler who basically gutted the game for hardcore players. Now instead of putting content in games they simply put up gating mechanisms so that hardcore players can progress faster than casual players.
From what I've heard (And I could be wrong on this), WoW was modeled off of Warhammer. Somewhere I heard or read (Been awhile and can't recall exactly) that Blizzard bought the story rights to the Warhammer franchise and just switched some things around to make it their own.
Vanilla WoW was pretty good. It had to be for me to stick around for over 2 years. But there came a point where they started caving to the whiners and they got greedy and it all went to crap.
Funny thing is years ago I made jokes that eventually they'd let you start at level cap, with all epic gear, an epic mount, and 10k in gold....just to see it (At least the "Start at lvl 90") come true. It's hilarious.
Nari...we are talking about MMORPG's in this thread. Neither of the games you mentioned are an MMORPG.
And remarking to an earlier post in this thread where you wondered why people talk about an older game..it's because it was good enough to remember and want to talk about...plus, I , as well as others here were referring to the portions of said games we'd like to see brought back to MMORPG's. Not that we want the same exact game, because believe me, they are plenty of aspects of EQ1 I don't want to see back. But the stuff that made them MMORPG's....mixed with many of todays modern MMORPG's.
Great post, with some great ideas
You touched on it but i would go further by not adding an auto group button for Raids and Parties and force players to interact together again or search out guilds.
Outlaw guild systems like what ESO has, the cross guild system kills a players loyalty to their tag
Make the game a player driver economy so crafters need to peddle their wares through interaction only or lightening up Zone chat.
When adding something modern into the game go with a non tab target system, players game styles have evolved and this is one of the few positive aspects in our modern MMO's that i think is positive
Also very good points I didn't touch on.
Although a centralized bazaar like EQ had later in it's life wasn't that bad of an idea. Especially if when you were ready to log, you could set your character up in a stall with a personalized vendor message and price items and the character remained, but controlled via the games AI system while you were offline.
Would add to the game, and make it so you didn't have to sit for hours at a stall vending instead of out crafting or adventuring. Although I did enjoy doing that as well.
But yeah...it was nice to see players set up shop in unusual places to peddle wares.
I'd be happy with something that meets the middle ground here.
I actually liked both systems. I know when EC/GFay players peddled/bartered their wares it created a very particular and unique atmosphere that was markedly humanistic and only contributed further to community emergence.
Conversely I cannot deny the nuisance of maintaining inventory and devoting time toward selling items. However this also meant rarer item transactions had an intrinsic value brought forth from opportunity.
Very common items, crafting items in particular, don't seem to fall too well into the above category. (edit: eat my words there i did make a fuck ton of money selling silk as a lowbie) Why can't world vendors just keep track of supply and demand on what items are sold and bought by them and adjust the prices accordingly? I suppose this could be abused in some manner but it certainly is an idea for things that become trivial but useful to players.
In short: you want a vibrant "online world filled with lore" and you do not want to be spoonfed by the devs or the game made too easy.
You sir, like us, are outnumbered by the people who want instant gratification.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"