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RPG is the reason MMOs are not evolving

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  • nolfnolf Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by Popple

    The problem is not the RPG.. It is the people..Lets look back at MMO

    People whine that they wanted to group with their friends. Well the RPG made that happen..

    People whine they wanted more benefits while they group.. RPG caved and made that happen.

    People whine and wanted PVP and again RPG made that Happen..

    People whine and wanted a Chat and again RPG made it happen

    Etc,etc,etc,etc,the list goes on..

    I do believe the RPG did a lot and cater to a lot of whiners.

    There is no formula.. I dont like to PVP, I hate to group with idiots and the Chats are nothing but crap..Give me a MMORPG with out all this crap and cater to my azz...Their i am all done whining...image

     

    They're called single player RPGs and they've been making them for decades and decades.

    I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.

  • nolfnolf Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

     

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

     

     

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

    I believe on a fundamental level you misunderstand what an RPG is.

    I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,060
    So the real complaint is against quest based progression, which is not necessarily a requirement in a RPG game. Might be the most popular form currently but I would put forth EVE as an example of a MMORPG without it and is doing fine.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Originally posted by nolf
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

     

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

     

     

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

    I believe on a fundamental level you misunderstand what an RPG is.

    I counter that based on the OP he misunderstands RPG on any level.


  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

     

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

     

     

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

      Only problem , is that the games you list offer the best opportunity to Role -Play , without the linear restrictive lore and mechanics of many modern MMOs

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432

    Let's not confuse too many terms here :)

    MMORPG's had better have RPG aspects to them.

    MMOs? Whatever they fell like tagging them with: ACG (Action Combat Games), FPS (First Person Shooter), TPS (Third Person Shooter), AAG (Action Adventure Game), what have you.

    When "RPG" is in your genre name, you best have some RPG in the game :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,178
    MMOs are evolving there are so many types of MMOs as pointed out by others. RPG is just one type of MMO. Your OP makes little sense.

  • Stone_FountainStone_Fountain Member UncommonPosts: 233
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    So the real complaint is against quest based progression, which is not necessarily a requirement in a RPG game. Might be the most popular form currently but I would put forth EVE as an example of a MMORPG without it and is doing fine.

    Eve is not an MMORPG by any standard. It is a space and business sim. An MMORPG is a game played online with others where the game itself has RP elements. I.E. a character is a PC in a world filled with other PCs and NPCs and you, the player take up the banner of a specific character and follow the story and questline to it's completion among other PCs. 

     

    The fail is that these 'questlines' ARE supposed to BE the game, not a pocket sized spoon fed portion of the game, poorly executed and designed. AKA a themepark  where everything is compartmentalized. 

    "I'll go ride the quest ride then head over to the PVP ride then go for the Raid ride." Where the quest ride is short and finite.

     

    We know why games are like this now, it is very expensive and time consuming to make a game where the story continues throughout the entire course of your experience. Sure you can peel of the story for a time in such games but eventually you'll have to get back into it to complete the quest. 

    First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    So the real complaint is against quest based progression, which is not necessarily a requirement in a RPG game. Might be the most popular form currently but I would put forth EVE as an example of a MMORPG without it and is doing fine.

    I think the pvp has more to do with the success than the crappy PvE progression that Eve has.

  • Jerek_Jerek_ Member Posts: 409

    The problem with that is, RPGs themselves haven't been stuck in the same rut MMOs have.  If anything, lazy design elements from MMOs hurt RPGs, not the other way around.  Dragon Age 2 comes to mind here, I think that's were some of the worst parts of that game came from.

    On the other hand, I've seen systems in RPGs that put anything in recent MMOs to shame.  The pet capture and modification system in Final Fantasy 13-2 for example, its almost sad that such a complex idea was limited to a single player game.  Also games like Skyrim and DA:I seem to be moving RPGs in a better direction while games like Wildstar stick to the same old tired design in MMOs.  I realize that's somewhat unfair, given development times etc etc, but I do think it makes the point that if anything RPGs might be helping more than hurting the future design of MMOs.

  • Stone_FountainStone_Fountain Member UncommonPosts: 233
    Originally posted by Jerek_

    The problem with that is, RPGs themselves haven't been stuck in the same rut MMOs have.  If anything, lazy design elements from MMOs hurt RPGs, not the other way around.  Dragon Age 2 comes to mind here, I think that's were some of the worst parts of that game came from.

    On the other hand, I've seen systems in RPGs that put anything in recent MMOs to shame.  The pet capture and modification system in Final Fantasy 13-2 for example, its almost sad that such a complex idea was limited to a single player game.  Also games like Skyrim and DA:I seem to be moving RPGs in a better direction while games like Wildstar stick to the same old tired design in MMOs.  I realize that's somewhat unfair, given development times etc etc, but I do think it makes the point that if anything RPGs might be helping more than hurting the future design of MMOs.

    Skyrim is just awesome. It's sales world wide defines what gamers want yet we keep getting dung. 

    First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,178
    I agree so much after playing ME 2 I was so stunned and sad it finished but what was sadder was I wished it was an MMO. Same thing with Dragon Age Origins I wanted to play a game like that with real people in an MMO. So RPG is far from failing .

  • Well have fun with your non RPG games then.

    But its nothing that i want to play to be honest.

    I very much like the old cliche way to approach a MMORPG. Where groups of players are venturing out the defeat the evil ones. Or where you could get friendly with the evil one by working hard for them ( Faction switching ). I think in the modern games are all more on the soft shelled approach about this.

     

    As i already mentioned, i like cliches. Be it classes, scenarios or even straigtforward fights. cliches help defining whats going on, and an RPG delivers in that regard. The modern MMO lack in that regard to an great extend. I dosent enjoy them as a whole. There are some aspects of a game today that i like. But the times where i was thinking "Ok that fits even if its a bit off" are over. I definately want the MMORPG back!

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Martiander

    Well have fun with your non RPG games then.

    But its nothing that i want to play to be honest.

    I very much like the old cliche way to approach a MMORPG. Where groups of players are venturing out the defeat the evil ones. Or where you could get friendly with the evil one by working hard for them ( Faction switching ). I think in the modern games are all more on the soft shelled approach about this.

     

    As i already mentioned, i like cliches. Be it classes, scenarios or even straigtforward fights. cliches help defining whats going on, and an RPG delivers in that regard. The modern MMO lack in that regard to an great extend. I dosent enjoy them as a whole. There are some aspects of a game today that i like. But the times where i was thinking "Ok that fits even if its a bit off" are over. I definately want the MMORPG back!

    getting back something that never existed is hard.

  • tharkthark Member UncommonPosts: 1,188
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

     

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

     

     

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Hmm..I'm not sure I understand your logic here..

    Early MMORPG was what the technology could develop at the time, no game was fully voiced and quest centric for a reason, smaller market, huge costs and there wassn't the technology needed for it. They where as much RPG as the game these Days just without the Tech to back it up.

    UO was the most RPG of them all, you can more/less roleplay any role in that game, and this is what ROLEPLAY really is, NPC's and the likes that gives you quests and such is just Tools to HELP you out since we do not have a gamemaster that can jump in on the fly and tell you of your surroundings .

    There is games like Defiance and all the games like RIFT that needs the entire Community to help out clear global threats , and they are RPG's/ (well in CRPG sence atleast :)

     I'll argue that games like Dayz and such games (survival games) are very Close related to games of old ..here is a knife, now survive :) UO was much like that, you where basically put in the World and told nothing , you had to find a way to survive even thou it didn't have permadeath-.To me they are also RPG's..and to REALLY survive you will need help from others..What will The Walking Dead be if Rick didnt have hes team of trusted friends..Most likely dead :)

    The highest threath i see is the ever increasing solo play , this is the real threat to multiplayer and massive worlds , but that has nothing to do with if the game can entitle itself an RPG or not, you say it yourself MMO's should be massive and most of them are , it's just the darn solo playability that stops these games from feeling massive.

     

     

  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,680
    Originally posted by Oziius

    I'm starting to think that a lot of folks around here just love to hear themselves speak. First off, what recent MMO slump? Do you mean You are in a slump? I'm playing eso with a whole lotta buncha other players and there's no talks of slumps in game. I think some players mistake the fact that they are not happy with any games out  for a problem with the genre as a whole. For every one of the vocal posters on this site, there are 50 people playing games and no coming to forum sites to complain. This site and others like it are the overwhelming minority of gamer opinion, not the other way around. Just because people come here to complain doesn't mean that there's a problem with the genre. The genre is making plenty of money with happy gamers. I'm one of them.  

    Its funny to come to sites like this for this reason alone. RPG elements are not the problem. Today you have these hardcore mmo players that rush to end game and come to sites like this and claim they speak for everyone.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256

    By evolving , what do you want MMOs become ?

    Like mammoth evolve to elephant ?  Or Megalodon to shark ?

  • StarIStarI Member UncommonPosts: 987
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    So the real complaint is against quest based progression, which is not necessarily a requirement in a RPG game. Might be the most popular form currently but I would put forth EVE as an example of a MMORPG without it and is doing fine.

    I think the pvp has more to do with the success than the crappy PvE progression that Eve has.

     

    It's not PvP, it's not PvE, it's not this, it's not that. If you want something good, you have to combine a lot of different things and make them work together in a meaningful way. It doesn't matter how crapy you think PvE in EvE is, if it was taken out, EvE would only be half of the game it is today and arguably it wouldn't even exist, at least not in any similar form.

    For the same reason (and not the only reason) "RPG" can not be a reason why MMOs are not evolving, which in it's own is not true anyway.

    MMORPGs are constantly evolving, people just expect this:

     

    to become this:

     

     

    over night.

     

    p.s. @OP, MMO RPG MMORPG. It seems you're way to loose on using these expresions when it seems you want to make a serious argument.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.

     

    It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality.  But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.

    The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.

    This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2

    And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.

    MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.

    Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.

    And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.

    Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...

     

    New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.

     

     

    It emerged years ago. Everyone else has already realized this. This crowd is just late to the party.  

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Originally posted by StarI
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    So the real complaint is against quest based progression, which is not necessarily a requirement in a RPG game. Might be the most popular form currently but I would put forth EVE as an example of a MMORPG without it and is doing fine.

    I think the pvp has more to do with the success than the crappy PvE progression that Eve has.

     

    It's not PvP, it's not PvE, it's not this, it's not that. If you want something good, you have to combine a lot of different things and make them work together in a meaningful way. It doesn't matter how crapy you think PvE in EvE is, if it was taken out, EvE would only be half of the game it is today and arguably it wouldn't even exist, at least not in any similar form.

    For the same reason (and not the only reason) "RPG" can not be a reason why MMOs are not evolving, which in it's own is not true anyway.

    MMORPGs are constantly evolving, people just expect this:

     

    to become this:

     

     

    over night.

     

    p.s. @OP, MMO RPG MMORPG. It seems you're way to loose on using these expresions when it seems you want to make a serious argument.

    No one I know says they play Eve for the PvE.  It is not the selling feature.  Would the game be less without it...yes, but that is not the main point to draw people in. 

  • StarIStarI Member UncommonPosts: 987
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by StarI
     

    No one I know says they play Eve for the PvE.  It is not the selling feature.  Would the game be less without it...yes, but that is not the main point to draw people in. 

     

    You would be surprised how many people PvE mostly, and PvP only as much as it's unavoidable.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    There are certainly different types of RPGs - both main examples are quite popular.

    You have the more "linear" story driven games like your Final Fantasies and your Bioware-style RPGs.

    And you have the more "open" RPGs like your Elder Scrolls and your Fallouts and such.

     

    Neither is truly better than the other. All personal preference.

     

    I personally believe the more "open" style works better in an MMO environment - as player choice and interaction is a major component versus the more "linear" style RPG where you are usually playing a pre-established character and it's more about the narrative.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,901
    RPG stands for role playing game. Any game you can step back from yourself and pretend to be something or someone else is an RPG. Some of the best communities in MMOs are the RP gamers. Or are you pointing at some other area of gaming tat has nothing to do with RP? 
  • merv808merv808 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    I believe the opposite to be true. Everquest and Ultima were very much RPGs. The truth is, the genre had been going away from RPG and THAT is actually the problem. The less like RPG games become, the more shallow and boring they are. People think RPG combat is too slow, so they added faster combat in games like Tera. Faster combat means less strategy, without strategy, combat gets old after a few fights.

    Another staple in RPGs are parties. Yeah, your character may be the chosen savior of the world, but he still can't do much without a full party. So it was all about finding characters of varying skill to overcome a great evil. In earlier, MMOs finding the right team was critical. People decided they didn't have time for this so solo content was born, group finders were invented so you could form teams without being social. Things were made easier, so they could be completed without full teams.

    Lastly, RPGs are about playing a role. Earlier MMOs had this. In combat, it became known as the holy trinity. People decided they hated this concept, and since we've seen a slew of games where no one has specific roles in combat, and you know what. Fights are boring now. There's no strategy or coordinating with teammates.

    MMOs are watered down these days because they are getting away from RPG. They want to be FPS, action, or adventure games. And those game types don't have the depth or soul to host entire worlds. You've never seen a world spanning action game, have you?
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Everquest did not have anything in the game that supported rpg any more than wow or eso of ff14 or ready anything else.

    It was the players that choose to do it then and now.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
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