I'm reminded of the old baby and bathwater saying.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with questing, story and guidance. It's a required element as a matter of fact. Without it all you have is a FUBAR mess that leaves a large part of the "enjoyment" of the game up to the psycopathic trolls that congregate in guilds like Hogg.
Where many mmorpgs go wrong is in making the quests, stories and guidance be all about single player or small groups in an environment that isn't made for that.
There have been many MMOs that have flirted with the idea of creating meaningful and fun large group community experiences as an integral part of the game: Warhammer Online's public quests, Rift's rifts, GW2's events, etc. and EQN, before it was taken over by the Russian Mafia, was also heading in that direction in an even bigger way. The problem is that none of them have had the balls to make it just about that. All of them sprinkle those large events into WOW clones that are still primarily about the single player experience and the large events play out as just an optional diversion from the same old shit with players scattering back to their solitary pursuits just as soon as the event ends.
The answer is not to open a shell and let the players have at it - that never ends well. The answer is to focus on large events as the primary RPG story elements with everything you do being clearly and meaningfully feeding into that.
none of this games had a wish for todays EQ numbers, so no, they didnt pursuit that venue.
And theres no "meaningful" in MMOs, even in GW2 in Orr (which btw is EXACTLY what you desribed) theres only set number of events that dynamically go back and forth depending on what players do. But eventually everything reverts since theres no AI which would produce content in real time.
RPG means Role Playing Game. YOU take on the role of a character. This can have nothing to do with forced story telling in a game. It can also be open ended.
Story drive RPG is a STYLE of RPG.
Open exploration is a STYLE of RPG.
This entire thread is meaningless for defining one sub-genre as an RPG. MMORPG is what spawned the MMO genre. It then widened to many styles of play so they dropped the RPG from it. Those original games that were open ended and had no forced story were MMORPGs!
And now you say MMORPGs are the fault? Give your head a shake. Story heavy RPGs converted to MMO is relatively new to this genre compared to the 15+ years of it's existence. Is the OP too new to this genre to recognize this? It is also likely that their limited success and extreme overhead for development is driving this new indie sandbox era of development.
Any evolution of any style is independent of each other IF the fucking designers don't sell out and change their own games based on market successes so that all types can co-exist. THAT is the problem.
The less people here start blaming other games they do not like as much the better our debates will be heard by developers and we start getting the games we ALL want.
This is yet another, "Stop liking what I don't like!" cry posts. On top of this the OP fails to recognize that Story driven mmos are doing exactly what he/she wants ... forcing the industry to realize players want more!
As a pen and paper roleplayer I think the opposite, freedom is the thing that define roleplaying. And in fact where many of the earlier RPGs what most of us here would call sandboxes.
Adding tons of cutscenes and forcing you to do certain things or playing a certain ways is Railroading, not RPG. But I guess a ton of crappy single player games like Mass effect and Dragon age have made people forget that.
MMOs should move closer to pen and paper roleplaying and further away from Diablo and Dragon age in my opinion. If Im a thief and I want to break into the royal palace to steal the crown jewels that should be a possibility, it should be freaking hard but possible instead of forcing me to save the world in a bunch of scripted instances.
MMOs is better the less npcs tells me what to do and the same goes for roleplaying games.
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
Totally depends how you look on it. Sure it might be in the slumps due to personal expectations.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
Not really sure why question is a the most important part of a RPG experiance, especially if we are talking online.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
Personaly I only see a more streamlined singleplayer RPG experiance brought into MMORPG's. Don't get me wrong I love ESO as some know and it HAS a great RPG feel to it I really enjoy, but it's far from the RPG experiance I would really want. So far only SWG has given me that feel.
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Here is the thing that massive social experiance, virtual world is what I feel is what makes a MMORPG a MMORPG.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
I truly welcome any genre, play many genre's and enjoy many of them regardless it's genre tag. But to me there are already allot of MMO's I feel are not so much MMORPG's. Atleast not in the way I personaly consider MMORPG.
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
Your post is utter sacrilege! RPG's were here before MMO's, it is the fault of UO and EQ to forgo the RPG aspects and create games that relied on PvP in UO's case and carrot on a stick in EQ's case. Asheron's Call was every bit an RPG as well as an MMO. Sadly it didn't get the advertisement it deserved.
No what is wrong with the MMO genre is greed, pure and simple greed. Studios and Developers jumped on the Themepark, linear quest Hub WoW clone design. Instead of innovating the genre further. Nothing else.
I would say Ultima Online was the epitome of an RPG. You could be anything you wanted and do anything you wanted. You could start the game in the middle of no where, go make yourself an axe, chop some wood, build a house, and go hunting. You could be a thief and go around stealing other peoples equipment. You could be a bandit and hang around killing people. You could be a miner trying to mine for rare materials and bring them back to town or your house. You could powerful animals. You could craft a boat and go fishing. You could be a bard and sing songs that enchanted people and creatures. The sky was the limit for the most part. I think that roleplaying is impossible if you are forced down a set path to a large extent. You are basically being forced into what the designer wants you to experience.
I'd say SWG was even more so, but here in red, that's always been the case in PnP RPG's you're always experiencing what the DM wants you to experience. It really wouldn't work any other way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
As a pen and paper roleplayer I think the opposite, freedom is the thing that define roleplaying. And in fact where many of the earlier RPGs what most of us here would call sandboxes.
Adding tons of cutscenes and forcing you to do certain things or playing a certain ways is Railroading, not RPG. But I guess a ton of crappy single player games like Mass effect and Dragon age have made people forget that.
MMOs should move closer to pen and paper roleplaying and further away from Diablo and Dragon age in my opinion. If Im a thief and I want to break into the royal palace to steal the crown jewels that should be a possibility, it should be freaking hard but possible instead of forcing me to save the world in a bunch of scripted instances.
MMOs is better the less npcs tells me what to do and the same goes for roleplaying games.
How would a sandbox work in PnP? You have no set goal, no DM making an adventure for you, etc..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
Your post is utter sacrilege! RPG's were here before MMO's, it is the fault of UO and EQ to forgo the RPG aspects and create games that relied on PvP in UO's case and carrot on a stick in EQ's case. Asheron's Call was every bit an RPG as well as an MMO. Sadly it didn't get the advertisement it deserved.
No what is wrong with the MMO genre is greed, pure and simple greed. Studios and Developers jumped on the Themepark, linear quest Hub WoW clone design. Instead of innovating the genre further. Nothing else.
I would say Ultima Online was the epitome of an RPG. You could be anything you wanted and do anything you wanted. You could start the game in the middle of no where, go make yourself an axe, chop some wood, build a house, and go hunting. You could be a thief and go around stealing other peoples equipment. You could be a bandit and hang around killing people. You could be a miner trying to mine for rare materials and bring them back to town or your house. You could powerful animals. You could craft a boat and go fishing. You could be a bard and sing songs that enchanted people and creatures. The sky was the limit for the most part. I think that roleplaying is impossible if you are forced down a set path to a large extent. You are basically being forced into what the designer wants you to experience.
I'd say SWG was even more so, but here in red, that's always been the case in PnP RPG's you're always experiencing what the DM wants you to experience. It really wouldn't work any other way.
Not really true. Everything in a modern MMO is entirely scripted. Even in games like the old and new Final Fantasy single player game everything was scripted and the dialogue was simple acted out in front of you like watching a movie.
To have roleplaying you have to have control over what your character is saying at the very least. In D&D you played on a chess board so you always had options on where to go and what to do generally. You also build your own character and said whatever you want the character to say.
In Ultima Online this was very possible as you could play your wares, save people in distress, murder people, and say things akin to what they would say. Pretty much it was complete freedom. I think this is the environment that is best to encourage roleplaying.
As a pen and paper roleplayer I think the opposite, freedom is the thing that define roleplaying. And in fact where many of the earlier RPGs what most of us here would call sandboxes.
Adding tons of cutscenes and forcing you to do certain things or playing a certain ways is Railroading, not RPG. But I guess a ton of crappy single player games like Mass effect and Dragon age have made people forget that.
MMOs should move closer to pen and paper roleplaying and further away from Diablo and Dragon age in my opinion. If Im a thief and I want to break into the royal palace to steal the crown jewels that should be a possibility, it should be freaking hard but possible instead of forcing me to save the world in a bunch of scripted instances.
MMOs is better the less npcs tells me what to do and the same goes for roleplaying games.
How would a sandbox work in PnP? You have no set goal, no DM making an adventure for you, etc..
In my mind all PnP is sandbox.
Here is the reason.
The DM has to respond differently given the actions of the players. His/her pre-set plans can easily change based on what the players do. PnP RPGs are more like improv story telling then they are a narrative.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'm starting to think that a lot of folks around here just love to hear themselves speak. First off, what recent MMO slump? Do you mean You are in a slump? I'm playing eso with a whole lotta buncha other players and there's no talks of slumps in game. I think some players mistake the fact that they are not happy with any games out for a problem with the genre as a whole. For every one of the vocal posters on this site, there are 50 people playing games and no coming to forum sites to complain. This site and others like it are the overwhelming minority of gamer opinion, not the other way around. Just because people come here to complain doesn't mean that there's a problem with the genre. The genre is making plenty of money with happy gamers. I'm one of them.
Excellent post. I myself am playing ESO too but only as a glorified Skyrim with the occasional grouping or dungeon delve. In fact I prefer to play MMO's this way. Been playing like this since 1999. I don't need massive social interaction, but I do need (or prefer) to play in a world where others are around as it makes it more immersive and it gives an avenue to trade or group when it suits me. Too me this is the epitome of MMO's. The forced grouping or EQ or Forced PvP of UQ are not what an MMO is about and IMO those 2 games are an anomaly plus IMO they bastardize the genre.
Every since EAO went F2P I've been playing it, cause it is a damn good game for what I want out of an MMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I don't blame Themepark. Even in DnD, you were still fundamentally in the world of your DM. He/She had a design in place that, generally, the players were to follow. Sure, their are some players that will buck that and do what they want; but the vast majority took the hints and direction of the DM and followed the "set path".
So, on that note, I blame us gamers. We can't decide what we want in a game, Devs keep making these carbon copy games, or making lackluster "sandbox games". The promise the world, and give us a small corner of some backwater town.
And to make a correction to someone that said EQ2 came our first: you are correct, it did come out first. However, EQ2 11/8/2004, WOW 11/28/2004. Both are close enough in release that if you were to blame a game for causing our the current situation, you could blame both. WOW however, since it is so popular, gets most of the blame.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
Your post is utter sacrilege! RPG's were here before MMO's, it is the fault of UO and EQ to forgo the RPG aspects and create games that relied on PvP in UO's case and carrot on a stick in EQ's case. Asheron's Call was every bit an RPG as well as an MMO. Sadly it didn't get the advertisement it deserved.
No what is wrong with the MMO genre is greed, pure and simple greed. Studios and Developers jumped on the Themepark, linear quest Hub WoW clone design. Instead of innovating the genre further. Nothing else.
I would say Ultima Online was the epitome of an RPG. You could be anything you wanted and do anything you wanted. You could start the game in the middle of no where, go make yourself an axe, chop some wood, build a house, and go hunting. You could be a thief and go around stealing other peoples equipment. You could be a bandit and hang around killing people. You could be a miner trying to mine for rare materials and bring them back to town or your house. You could powerful animals. You could craft a boat and go fishing. You could be a bard and sing songs that enchanted people and creatures. The sky was the limit for the most part. I think that roleplaying is impossible if you are forced down a set path to a large extent. You are basically being forced into what the designer wants you to experience.
Funny I've been playing RPG's since 1982, from Pen and Paper, Tabletop and Video games. And not one of those games I ever played in the 30+ years of me playing RPG's were about crafting, building or PvP. Too me those activities are more suited to Sims or FPS's. RPG's have always been about character progression, exploration and loot acquisition. Nothing else matters in the grand scene. Too me UO is a new genre on to itself, and is in no way shape or form a true RPG.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I don't blame Themepark. Even in DnD, you were still fundamentally in the world of your DM. He/She had a design in place that, generally, the players were to follow. Sure, their are some players that will buck that and do what they want; but the vast majority took the hints and direction of the DM and followed the "set path".
So, on that note, I blame us gamers. We can't decide what we want in a game, Devs keep making these carbon copy games, or making lackluster "sandbox games". The promise the world, and give us a small corner of some backwater town.
And to make a correction to someone that said EQ2 came our first: you are correct, it did come out first. However, EQ2 11/8/2004, WOW 11/28/2004. Both are close enough in release that if you were to blame a game for causing our the current situation, you could blame both. WOW however, since it is so popular, gets most of the blame.
Sure if you had a sucky DM or you played nothing but premade modules. But a good DM will craft a world and environment that gives ultimate freedom to the party.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
Your post is utter sacrilege! RPG's were here before MMO's, it is the fault of UO and EQ to forgo the RPG aspects and create games that relied on PvP in UO's case and carrot on a stick in EQ's case. Asheron's Call was every bit an RPG as well as an MMO. Sadly it didn't get the advertisement it deserved.
No what is wrong with the MMO genre is greed, pure and simple greed. Studios and Developers jumped on the Themepark, linear quest Hub WoW clone design. Instead of innovating the genre further. Nothing else.
I would say Ultima Online was the epitome of an RPG. You could be anything you wanted and do anything you wanted. You could start the game in the middle of no where, go make yourself an axe, chop some wood, build a house, and go hunting. You could be a thief and go around stealing other peoples equipment. You could be a bandit and hang around killing people. You could be a miner trying to mine for rare materials and bring them back to town or your house. You could powerful animals. You could craft a boat and go fishing. You could be a bard and sing songs that enchanted people and creatures. The sky was the limit for the most part. I think that roleplaying is impossible if you are forced down a set path to a large extent. You are basically being forced into what the designer wants you to experience.
I'd say SWG was even more so, but here in red, that's always been the case in PnP RPG's you're always experiencing what the DM wants you to experience. It really wouldn't work any other way.
Not really true. Everything in a modern MMO is entirely scripted. Even in games like the old and new Final Fantasy single player game everything was scripted and the dialogue was simple acted out in front of you like watching a movie.
To have roleplaying you have to have control over what your character is saying at the very least. In D&D you played on a chess board so you always had options on where to go and what to do generally. You also build your own character and said whatever you want the character to say.
In Ultima Online this was very possible as you could play your wares, save people in distress, murder people, and say things akin to what they would say. Pretty much it was complete freedom. I think this is the environment that is best to encourage roleplaying.
The scripting is simply because what is going down is actually going down, it's not a colorfully stated endeavor as it would be in a D&D setting. I find the best RPG's to be those like NWN 1&2, Divinity: OS, Wasteland, Fall Out, etc... As well as Elder scrolls titles, everything is always in character in said environment. You have the freedom you need, yet roadblocks to overcome, etc..
Games Like UO or really MMORPG's in general have a major problem, they allow folks who have no care in the world for RP to ruin it for those who do. Most MMO's still have this problem, they always will. Few talk in character, few play as though they're playing as a character in that world, far too many treat it as e-peen contest, rather than another world to act out your part in. IF that weren't the case I might agree with your overall point, but it is the case.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You all seem like understanding people, so let's skip the bull. You also all know why exactly MMO's in whole are going the crapper.
1- Games released years before being done.
2- Game breaking cash shops.
3- The gimmick of "pre ordering" and getting "cool" stuff over those who don't pre order.
4- Crappy RNG Random Number Generator, where some will get kick ass gear and others that contributed equally receive a piece of meat?
5- Paying 50-60$ on a unfinished title, and having to pay a monthly is / was down right stupid, *cough* TESO.
I can keep going, but RPG in MMO's is not at all the problem, the problem are devs trying to squeeze every penny out of your pockets, and they're succeeding, sadly.
A MMO or any type of online gaming is not considered gaming when you feel obliged on putting in real currency in order to be relevant, it becomes gambling. Huge difference that 99% of MMO gamers fail to realize.
As a pen and paper roleplayer I think the opposite, freedom is the thing that define roleplaying. And in fact where many of the earlier RPGs what most of us here would call sandboxes.
Adding tons of cutscenes and forcing you to do certain things or playing a certain ways is Railroading, not RPG. But I guess a ton of crappy single player games like Mass effect and Dragon age have made people forget that.
MMOs should move closer to pen and paper roleplaying and further away from Diablo and Dragon age in my opinion. If Im a thief and I want to break into the royal palace to steal the crown jewels that should be a possibility, it should be freaking hard but possible instead of forcing me to save the world in a bunch of scripted instances.
MMOs is better the less npcs tells me what to do and the same goes for roleplaying games.
And there you have it, dev patch and adventure "thieve steals them crown jewels" and every thief on the server rushes to steal crown jewels.
I would also like AI making content in real time, but until then i understand we are not there yet and will be pro for any attempt to make it better WITHIN current technological capabilities and thats currently NPCs acting as DMs in a limited manner.
What i DONT want is crappy themepark game with one ride: merry go round where people chit chat just because theyre bored to death with the ride (aka "old school" MMOs)
How would a sandbox work in PnP? You have no set goal, no DM making an adventure for you, etc..
In my mind all PnP is sandbox.
Here is the reason.
The DM has to respond differently given the actions of the players. His/her pre-set plans can easily change based on what the players do. PnP RPGs are more like improv story telling then they are a narrative.
That's a good way to look at it, but I don't see the sand in it, what are players creating? What are they crafting? Building, etc? You still kind of need that ultimate goal set by a DM as well. Your freedom is more in how you interact with the situation presented, as well as build your character.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
Your post is utter sacrilege! RPG's were here before MMO's, it is the fault of UO and EQ to forgo the RPG aspects and create games that relied on PvP in UO's case and carrot on a stick in EQ's case. Asheron's Call was every bit an RPG as well as an MMO. Sadly it didn't get the advertisement it deserved.
No what is wrong with the MMO genre is greed, pure and simple greed. Studios and Developers jumped on the Themepark, linear quest Hub WoW clone design. Instead of innovating the genre further. Nothing else.
I would say Ultima Online was the epitome of an RPG. You could be anything you wanted and do anything you wanted. You could start the game in the middle of no where, go make yourself an axe, chop some wood, build a house, and go hunting. You could be a thief and go around stealing other peoples equipment. You could be a bandit and hang around killing people. You could be a miner trying to mine for rare materials and bring them back to town or your house. You could powerful animals. You could craft a boat and go fishing. You could be a bard and sing songs that enchanted people and creatures. The sky was the limit for the most part. I think that roleplaying is impossible if you are forced down a set path to a large extent. You are basically being forced into what the designer wants you to experience.
I'd say SWG was even more so, but here in red, that's always been the case in PnP RPG's you're always experiencing what the DM wants you to experience. It really wouldn't work any other way.
Not really true. Everything in a modern MMO is entirely scripted. Even in games like the old and new Final Fantasy single player game everything was scripted and the dialogue was simple acted out in front of you like watching a movie.
To have roleplaying you have to have control over what your character is saying at the very least. In D&D you played on a chess board so you always had options on where to go and what to do generally. You also build your own character and said whatever you want the character to say.
In Ultima Online this was very possible as you could play your wares, save people in distress, murder people, and say things akin to what they would say. Pretty much it was complete freedom. I think this is the environment that is best to encourage roleplaying.
The scripting is simply because what is going down is actually going down, it's not a colorfully stated endeavor as it would be in a D&D setting. I find the best RPG's to be those like NWN 1&2, Divinity: OS, Wasteland, Fall Out, etc... As well as Elder scrolls titles, everything is always in character in said environment. You have the freedom you need, yet roadblocks to overcome, etc..
Games Like UO or really MMORPG's in general have a major problem, they allow folks who have no care in the world for RP to ruin it for those who do. Most MMO's still have this problem, they always will. Few talk in character, few play as though they're playing as a character in that world, far too many treat it as e-peen contest, rather than another world to act out your part in. IF that weren't the case I might agree with your overall point, but it is the case.
Theoretically while you may not be consciously attempting to role play something in those games you are. If you are an idiot jerk with a goofy name that is exactly who you are and how you acting in game. If you are a mass murderer who likes to grief people that is pretty close to a bandit. If you are antisocial and wander around alone you are a hermit. In a way you are roleplaying in a sort of way no matter what you choose to behave as. A power gamer is driven by their greed. That would mean they are roleplaying a greedy person in game.
As a pen and paper roleplayer I think the opposite, freedom is the thing that define roleplaying. And in fact where many of the earlier RPGs what most of us here would call sandboxes.
Adding tons of cutscenes and forcing you to do certain things or playing a certain ways is Railroading, not RPG. But I guess a ton of crappy single player games like Mass effect and Dragon age have made people forget that.
MMOs should move closer to pen and paper roleplaying and further away from Diablo and Dragon age in my opinion. If Im a thief and I want to break into the royal palace to steal the crown jewels that should be a possibility, it should be freaking hard but possible instead of forcing me to save the world in a bunch of scripted instances.
MMOs is better the less npcs tells me what to do and the same goes for roleplaying games.
As long as it is written how it should be and it has an impact, Idgaf if it is linear or if it is open-ended. Tbh, I prefer linear. Can you name three outstanding open ended RPGs? Because I can name at least 5 very good linear not GAMES, but SERIES! Here:
-> Mass Effect
-> Dragon Age
-> Baldur's Gate
-> Neverwinter Nights
-> The Witcher
-> edit: KoTOR
and some assorted others: Dungeon Siege, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale, Diablo, Final Fantasy.
Hm?
edit: Sandboxes are like DM decided to either leave or do whatever everyone wanted. And I think, that is not what you would call a quality PnP, is it now? Sure, linear is kinda railroaded, but so were you must of the time when playing PnP. It's just that in PnP you had to either comply or GTFO. I think you understand me, yes?
All of which are open ended. You can choose where to go and when to in most cases. You can also choose which dialogue you want to say and weather or not you are evil, good, chaotic, lawful, neutral, etc. Those games all have a measure of choices, but the more recent the game generally the less choices you have.
Skyrim is a good example of a popular open ended game.
Dark Souls is also fairly open ended though it has little in the way of actual roleplaying. Most of it is exploration and combat. It's still a fun game to play, but more like a far more advanced Legend of Zelda. There is little dialogue and it's all by NPCs, but what the NPCs say is quite meaningful. You likely won't complete the game without listening to what is said.
I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
thats what they dont see, but they also call daiblo rpg, back in the time diablo was just hack&slash game, where you "camped" Bhaal for lewt.
And EQ was nothing more than MMO equvivalent of diablo.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
There are certain gaming elements that are the makeup of what makes an RPG. EQ had them. The difference is that RPG's are single player games first, then MMO prefix was attached to that. To design an MMORPG, you have to translate RPG elements so that multiple players can enjoy a similar gaming experience and features. The fact was, that they wanted the players to make their own story and place in the world. Again someone who doesn't know what an RPG is. RPG's are not just confined to roleplaying choices, there are other gaming elements that are associated with that. Which leaves me with this thought on your post...
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Role - "a part or character played by an actor or actress" (or in this case...the player)
Playing - (as in role playing) "to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), especially in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction"
Game - "an amusement or pastime"
Seems to me...any game where you take on a role and play said game...but....that's just me
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
Wow, just...... ummmm..... wow.
I will not take much effort to even discuss such inaccurate and foolish thinking. At this point I believe you might believe that the moon is made out of cheese and that the USA never had a lunar landing and that aliens were a part of the JFK assassination.
RPG is what gave birth to the virtual worlds that you call MMOs. Those nerdy groups that sat around tables creating characters is what spawned the birth of what would eventually blossom into MMOs.
RPG is what gave birth to the virtual worlds that you call MMOs. Those nerdy groups that sat around tables creating characters is what spawned the birth of what would eventually blossom into MMOs.
Oh...this too ^
Anyone who thinks MMOs were made from any other thing than table top PnPs...is delusional
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I don't blame Themepark. Even in DnD, you were still fundamentally in the world of your DM. He/She had a design in place that, generally, the players were to follow. Sure, their are some players that will buck that and do what they want; but the vast majority took the hints and direction of the DM and followed the "set path".
A good DM does not create a "path" for players to take, but creates a world of choices and consequences with multiple paths to take and even more consequences from choosing each path that alter individual character and group outcomes farther into the story. A good DM creates an experience that can take on a life of its own based on choices made!
Comments
none of this games had a wish for todays EQ numbers, so no, they didnt pursuit that venue.
And theres no "meaningful" in MMOs, even in GW2 in Orr (which btw is EXACTLY what you desribed) theres only set number of events that dynamically go back and forth depending on what players do. But eventually everything reverts since theres no AI which would produce content in real time.
RPG means Role Playing Game. YOU take on the role of a character. This can have nothing to do with forced story telling in a game. It can also be open ended.
Story drive RPG is a STYLE of RPG.
Open exploration is a STYLE of RPG.
This entire thread is meaningless for defining one sub-genre as an RPG. MMORPG is what spawned the MMO genre. It then widened to many styles of play so they dropped the RPG from it. Those original games that were open ended and had no forced story were MMORPGs!
And now you say MMORPGs are the fault? Give your head a shake. Story heavy RPGs converted to MMO is relatively new to this genre compared to the 15+ years of it's existence. Is the OP too new to this genre to recognize this? It is also likely that their limited success and extreme overhead for development is driving this new indie sandbox era of development.
Any evolution of any style is independent of each other IF the fucking designers don't sell out and change their own games based on market successes so that all types can co-exist. THAT is the problem.
The less people here start blaming other games they do not like as much the better our debates will be heard by developers and we start getting the games we ALL want.
This is yet another, "Stop liking what I don't like!" cry posts. On top of this the OP fails to recognize that Story driven mmos are doing exactly what he/she wants ... forcing the industry to realize players want more!
You stay sassy!
As a pen and paper roleplayer I think the opposite, freedom is the thing that define roleplaying. And in fact where many of the earlier RPGs what most of us here would call sandboxes.
Adding tons of cutscenes and forcing you to do certain things or playing a certain ways is Railroading, not RPG. But I guess a ton of crappy single player games like Mass effect and Dragon age have made people forget that.
MMOs should move closer to pen and paper roleplaying and further away from Diablo and Dragon age in my opinion. If Im a thief and I want to break into the royal palace to steal the crown jewels that should be a possibility, it should be freaking hard but possible instead of forcing me to save the world in a bunch of scripted instances.
MMOs is better the less npcs tells me what to do and the same goes for roleplaying games.
I'd say SWG was even more so, but here in red, that's always been the case in PnP RPG's you're always experiencing what the DM wants you to experience. It really wouldn't work any other way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
How would a sandbox work in PnP? You have no set goal, no DM making an adventure for you, etc..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not really true. Everything in a modern MMO is entirely scripted. Even in games like the old and new Final Fantasy single player game everything was scripted and the dialogue was simple acted out in front of you like watching a movie.
To have roleplaying you have to have control over what your character is saying at the very least. In D&D you played on a chess board so you always had options on where to go and what to do generally. You also build your own character and said whatever you want the character to say.
In Ultima Online this was very possible as you could play your wares, save people in distress, murder people, and say things akin to what they would say. Pretty much it was complete freedom. I think this is the environment that is best to encourage roleplaying.
In my mind all PnP is sandbox.
Here is the reason.
The DM has to respond differently given the actions of the players. His/her pre-set plans can easily change based on what the players do. PnP RPGs are more like improv story telling then they are a narrative.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Excellent post. I myself am playing ESO too but only as a glorified Skyrim with the occasional grouping or dungeon delve. In fact I prefer to play MMO's this way. Been playing like this since 1999. I don't need massive social interaction, but I do need (or prefer) to play in a world where others are around as it makes it more immersive and it gives an avenue to trade or group when it suits me. Too me this is the epitome of MMO's. The forced grouping or EQ or Forced PvP of UQ are not what an MMO is about and IMO those 2 games are an anomaly plus IMO they bastardize the genre.
Every since EAO went F2P I've been playing it, cause it is a damn good game for what I want out of an MMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I don't blame Themepark. Even in DnD, you were still fundamentally in the world of your DM. He/She had a design in place that, generally, the players were to follow. Sure, their are some players that will buck that and do what they want; but the vast majority took the hints and direction of the DM and followed the "set path".
So, on that note, I blame us gamers. We can't decide what we want in a game, Devs keep making these carbon copy games, or making lackluster "sandbox games". The promise the world, and give us a small corner of some backwater town.
And to make a correction to someone that said EQ2 came our first: you are correct, it did come out first. However, EQ2 11/8/2004, WOW 11/28/2004. Both are close enough in release that if you were to blame a game for causing our the current situation, you could blame both. WOW however, since it is so popular, gets most of the blame.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Funny I've been playing RPG's since 1982, from Pen and Paper, Tabletop and Video games. And not one of those games I ever played in the 30+ years of me playing RPG's were about crafting, building or PvP. Too me those activities are more suited to Sims or FPS's. RPG's have always been about character progression, exploration and loot acquisition. Nothing else matters in the grand scene. Too me UO is a new genre on to itself, and is in no way shape or form a true RPG.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Sure if you had a sucky DM or you played nothing but premade modules. But a good DM will craft a world and environment that gives ultimate freedom to the party.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The scripting is simply because what is going down is actually going down, it's not a colorfully stated endeavor as it would be in a D&D setting. I find the best RPG's to be those like NWN 1&2, Divinity: OS, Wasteland, Fall Out, etc... As well as Elder scrolls titles, everything is always in character in said environment. You have the freedom you need, yet roadblocks to overcome, etc..
Games Like UO or really MMORPG's in general have a major problem, they allow folks who have no care in the world for RP to ruin it for those who do. Most MMO's still have this problem, they always will. Few talk in character, few play as though they're playing as a character in that world, far too many treat it as e-peen contest, rather than another world to act out your part in. IF that weren't the case I might agree with your overall point, but it is the case.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You all seem like understanding people, so let's skip the bull. You also all know why exactly MMO's in whole are going the crapper.
1- Games released years before being done.
2- Game breaking cash shops.
3- The gimmick of "pre ordering" and getting "cool" stuff over those who don't pre order.
4- Crappy RNG Random Number Generator, where some will get kick ass gear and others that contributed equally receive a piece of meat?
5- Paying 50-60$ on a unfinished title, and having to pay a monthly is / was down right stupid, *cough* TESO.
I can keep going, but RPG in MMO's is not at all the problem, the problem are devs trying to squeeze every penny out of your pockets, and they're succeeding, sadly.
A MMO or any type of online gaming is not considered gaming when you feel obliged on putting in real currency in order to be relevant, it becomes gambling. Huge difference that 99% of MMO gamers fail to realize.
And there you have it, dev patch and adventure "thieve steals them crown jewels" and every thief on the server rushes to steal crown jewels.
I would also like AI making content in real time, but until then i understand we are not there yet and will be pro for any attempt to make it better WITHIN current technological capabilities and thats currently NPCs acting as DMs in a limited manner.
What i DONT want is crappy themepark game with one ride: merry go round where people chit chat just because theyre bored to death with the ride (aka "old school" MMOs)
That's a good way to look at it, but I don't see the sand in it, what are players creating? What are they crafting? Building, etc? You still kind of need that ultimate goal set by a DM as well. Your freedom is more in how you interact with the situation presented, as well as build your character.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Theoretically while you may not be consciously attempting to role play something in those games you are. If you are an idiot jerk with a goofy name that is exactly who you are and how you acting in game. If you are a mass murderer who likes to grief people that is pretty close to a bandit. If you are antisocial and wander around alone you are a hermit. In a way you are roleplaying in a sort of way no matter what you choose to behave as. A power gamer is driven by their greed. That would mean they are roleplaying a greedy person in game.
All of which are open ended. You can choose where to go and when to in most cases. You can also choose which dialogue you want to say and weather or not you are evil, good, chaotic, lawful, neutral, etc. Those games all have a measure of choices, but the more recent the game generally the less choices you have.
Skyrim is a good example of a popular open ended game.
Dark Souls is also fairly open ended though it has little in the way of actual roleplaying. Most of it is exploration and combat. It's still a fun game to play, but more like a far more advanced Legend of Zelda. There is little dialogue and it's all by NPCs, but what the NPCs say is quite meaningful. You likely won't complete the game without listening to what is said.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
thats what they dont see, but they also call daiblo rpg, back in the time diablo was just hack&slash game, where you "camped" Bhaal for lewt.
And EQ was nothing more than MMO equvivalent of diablo.
There are certain gaming elements that are the makeup of what makes an RPG. EQ had them. The difference is that RPG's are single player games first, then MMO prefix was attached to that. To design an MMORPG, you have to translate RPG elements so that multiple players can enjoy a similar gaming experience and features. The fact was, that they wanted the players to make their own story and place in the world. Again someone who doesn't know what an RPG is. RPG's are not just confined to roleplaying choices, there are other gaming elements that are associated with that. Which leaves me with this thought on your post...
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt.
11 pages arguing over 3 words....
Role - "a part or character played by an actor or actress" (or in this case...the player)
Playing - (as in role playing) "to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), especially in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction"
Game - "an amusement or pastime"
Seems to me...any game where you take on a role and play said game...but....that's just me
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Wow, just...... ummmm..... wow.
I will not take much effort to even discuss such inaccurate and foolish thinking. At this point I believe you might believe that the moon is made out of cheese and that the USA never had a lunar landing and that aliens were a part of the JFK assassination.
RPG is what gave birth to the virtual worlds that you call MMOs. Those nerdy groups that sat around tables creating characters is what spawned the birth of what would eventually blossom into MMOs.
Oh...this too ^
Anyone who thinks MMOs were made from any other thing than table top PnPs...is delusional
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
A good DM does not create a "path" for players to take, but creates a world of choices and consequences with multiple paths to take and even more consequences from choosing each path that alter individual character and group outcomes farther into the story. A good DM creates an experience that can take on a life of its own based on choices made!