the rpg in mmorpg's has been reduced in many games in recent years and has been replaced with 'exciting options' and action , so you have got it the wrong way around OP, right?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I am thinking it is your ignorance that's showing. He's pretty much spot on and you simply don't have anything to come back with.
You obviously were not there and have no clue about that which you speak. How many story lines from EQ did you want linked? A dozen? A hundred? Two hundred? Did you want small tales (the ongoing conflict between the halfings and dark elves) or epic sagas over a decade in the telling (Mayong)?
To give you an idea, most factions on this list have their own sets of stories: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/flist.com Those stores are told through the quests and quest dialogs.
That is just the factions, not all stories were tied to a specific faction.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
I am thinking it is your ignorance that's showing. He's pretty much spot on and you simply don't have anything to come back with.
You obviously were not there and have no clue about that which you speak. How many story lines from EQ did you want linked? A dozen? A hundred? Two hundred? Did you want small tales (the ongoing conflict between the halfings and dark elves) or epic sagas over a decade in the telling (Mayong)?
To give you an idea, most factions on this list have their own sets of stories: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/flist.com Those stores are told through the quests and quest dialogs.
That is just the factions, not all stories were tied to a specific faction.
i accidentaly clicked your link and "404 - not found"
i think its very fitting
those games were barren and heres a sample of "epic quest"
I am thinking it is your ignorance that's showing. He's pretty much spot on and you simply don't have anything to come back with.
You obviously were not there and have no clue about that which you speak. How many story lines from EQ did you want linked? A dozen? A hundred? Two hundred? Did you want small tales (the ongoing conflict between the halfings and dark elves) or epic sagas over a decade in the telling (Mayong)?
To give you an idea, most factions on this list have their own sets of stories: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/flist.com Those stores are told through the quests and quest dialogs.
That is just the factions, not all stories were tied to a specific faction.
i accidentaly clicked your link and "404 - not found"
i think its very fitting
those games were barren and heres a sample of "epic quest"
notice the richness of expression, all of 1 option and responses on level of 3 year old child.
Please, those "quests" were insulting your intelligence.
As i said, very poor, clumsy and deeply flawed attempt at mmoRPGs. But thats all in the past, thank the allmighty
Yet is still much more difficult to do then the quests that you see in games today. First you had to find the NPC. Then you had to locate all the NPCs and mobs in between.
Even with that said the dialogue was far better then what I see in games today IMO. That is personal opinion though.
Not all quests used the same keyword.
Having to type in one keyword is still more complex then clicking on an NPC and clicking accept.
I am thinking it is your ignorance that's showing. He's pretty much spot on and you simply don't have anything to come back with.
You obviously were not there and have no clue about that which you speak. How many story lines from EQ did you want linked? A dozen? A hundred? Two hundred? Did you want small tales (the ongoing conflict between the halfings and dark elves) or epic sagas over a decade in the telling (Mayong)?
To give you an idea, most factions on this list have their own sets of stories: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/flist.com Those stores are told through the quests and quest dialogs.
That is just the factions, not all stories were tied to a specific faction.
i accidentaly clicked your link and "404 - not found"
i think its very fitting
those games were barren and heres a sample of "epic quest"
notice the richness of expression, all of 1 option and responses on level of 3 year old child.
Please, those "quests" were insulting your intelligence.
As i said, very poor, clumsy and deeply flawed attempt at mmoRPGs. But thats all in the past, thank the allmighty
Yet is still much more difficult to do then the quests that you see in games today. First you had to find the NPC. Then you had to locate all the NPCs and mobs in between.
Even with that said the dialogue was far better then what I see in games today IMO. That is personal opinion though.
Not all quests used the same keyword.
Having to type in one keyword is still more complex then clicking on an NPC and clicking accept.
I was thinking that if this had been done with audio dialogue it might be a lot more acceptable in this day and age. Dark Souls is a good example. Click on the NPC and he gives you a little information. Click on him again and he gives you a little more information. There is no actual quest per say (just like EQ), but you get hints on what to do and where to go. EQ actually gives you coordinates in specific zones (in this quest) which is more then what Dark Souls gives you. The neat thing is that there is no actual quest (in a log) so you can meet up with random people along the way and help each other to complete it possible.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.
The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.
So, in other words, it didnt have any except ones you made up.
And you can do that in any MMO, AND have addition of dev provided ones.
And how many of these linear action mmo's actually have rp tools these days? rp servers? How many can you do custom emotes in? No alot. FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to. The more rp tools the more the game allows you to immerse yourself in rp. The more open the world vs. linear the more it allows you to immerse yourself in the world. Hell, and how about trying to rp when everyone else is running around with stupid names and acting 2015? Where are the rp servers these days? NO game makes them anymore.
I think the majority of rp naysayers here are not rp'ers, so basically you should not even be talking about something you know nothing about.
This is why you shouldnt write anything about something you obviously have no clue.
Pretty much every modern MMO has more RP tools than any "old school" and RP servers.
Even if theres no "official" RP servers theres always community designated RP servers.
And with mega servers you can RP with ANYONE who plays the game, its only on you to find people within much larger pool. Ive seen people RPing in every MMO i ever played. But i guess some people are not so close minded like some others.
Oh really? Name these RP tools "Mr. I know more than you". name me the new MMOs where you can sit at a table in a tavern and emote freely. Bring it.
As the fact you don't understand the difference between an official rp server and a community designated one shows perhaps you should be the one questioning YOUR knowledge of this subject.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.
The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.
So, in other words, it didnt have any except ones you made up.
And you can do that in any MMO, AND have addition of dev provided ones.
And how many of these linear action mmo's actually have rp tools these days? rp servers? How many can you do custom emotes in? No alot. FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to. The more rp tools the more the game allows you to immerse yourself in rp. The more open the world vs. linear the more it allows you to immerse yourself in the world. Hell, and how about trying to rp when everyone else is running around with stupid names and acting 2015? Where are the rp servers these days? NO game makes them anymore.
I think the majority of rp naysayers here are not rp'ers, so basically you should not even be talking about something you know nothing about.
This is why you shouldnt write anything about something you obviously have no clue.
Pretty much every modern MMO has more RP tools than any "old school" and RP servers.
Even if theres no "official" RP servers theres always community designated RP servers.
And with mega servers you can RP with ANYONE who plays the game, its only on you to find people within much larger pool. Ive seen people RPing in every MMO i ever played. But i guess some people are not so close minded like some others.
Oh really? Name these RP tools "Mr. I know more than you". name me the new MMOs where you can sit at a table in a tavern and emote freely. Bring it.
As the fact you don't understand the difference between an official rp server and a community designated one shows perhaps you should be the one questioning YOUR knowledge of this subject.
Oh really. I let you bask in your ignorance.
BUT what is clearly shown is that you havent even tried games you bash. Thats the most amusing points since you also accuse other of knowledge on the subject lol
The point that you say thet FFXIV is "most non linear and open worlded" of the new crop of MMOs is absolutely hilarious
Again, its really funny how you guys still wonder why noone takes you seriously.
"AAA" is mostly in a development halt but I wouldn't say the genre is in a slump. Role playing is a loose term. Generally, the word means to play a role.
IMO, the genre has taken the easiest routes which is to organize and tell the story for you. This allows developers to control and sale player content. This is also the most expensive way to go and the hardest to keep up because player blow through it. You constantly have to make new quest.
The genre is about social interaction period. Spin it how you like about what developers have done or do the genre is there to put players together in singular world(s). There is no right way to do these gamea but to deemphasize the orginal intent and most unique defining feature is odd.
The questing of modern day MMORPG cannot, by reasonable people, be seen as analogous to the mechanics used in the classic standouts of CRPGs over the context of the genre's life.
Ultima 4&5
Ultima Underworld
Pool of Radiance and other gold box games
Wasteland and Fallout 1&2 series
etc.
It is true that all of those games gave you some overall direction, but this is not analogous to to the "wow-style" questing system and I think Garriot might have smacked you in the 80s if you suggested Ultima 4 should have such a thing.
It is also true that later iterations of some of those series (fallout 3 notably) do have a system that is more analogous to the "WoW-style" questing.
But suggesting that any sort of "story guidance" is roughly the same as having a full blown WoW/modern MMO questing system. Well that is just way too much of a stretch to be reasonable.
I would also like to say that many MUDs "questing" system was considerably different than what is currently widely seen and that people are being extremely narrowminded.
In many LP style MUDs the quest system was not "content" per se. Rather they were requirements to achieve certain abilties or to be allowed passed a level. In many LP MUDs quest were challenges to prove you should be allowed past certain things. XP was gotten by killing things. They were two quite different mechanics. A quest was generally a small description you could access on a bulletin board or a help file and you had to figure everything out based upon the world and that small description. They were basically something to prove that you were "good" at the world of the MUD and prevented pure monster grinding.
I am not saying this is a good mechanic. In fact I rather disliked it. Some people rather liked it. But people should realize and admit these things can and have been used in ways you are not considering. Don't be slaves to your assimptions based on one decade of stuff is an obviously stagnant genre (MMORPGs).
I will say the reason I disliked it is mainly a practical and not a design thing. Most MUDs were made by volunteers and there was no guarantee you were given a "fair" puzzle for the quests and on some MUDs there was a sort "networking" sort of thing people would do to get solution to certain not particularlly well written/not made fair quests. Note that in most LP MUDs giving away quest solutions and in some cases hidden Guilds (roughly analogous to a class) was bannable offense. And wikis were not yet prevalent.
Anyway there is a tension between giving players a "fair"/useful amount of information and giving them spoilers. There is very much an art to it. I would say though that the "WoW style" questing system completely throws this out the window as there is no way to spoil something "on rails". This is perhaps the way to differentiate.
The questing of modern day MMORPG cannot, by reasonable people, be seen as analogous to the mechanics used in the classic standouts of CRPGs over the context of the genre's life.
Ultima 4&5
Ultima Underworld
Pool of Radiance and other gold box games
Wasteland and Fallout 1&2 series
etc.
It is true that all of those games gave you some overall direction, but this is not analogous to to the "wow-style" questing system and I think Garriot might have smacked you in the 80s if you suggested Ultima 4 should have such a thing.
It is also true that later iterations of some of those series (fallout 3 notably) do have a system that is more analogous to the "WoW-style" questing.
But suggesting that any sort of "story guidance" is roughly the same as having a full blown WoW/modern MMO questing system. Well that is just way too much of a stretch to be reasonable.
I would also like to say that many MUDs "questing" system was considerably different than what is currently widely seen and that people are being extremely narrowminded.
In many LP style MUDs the quest system was not "content" per se. Rather they were requirements to achieve certain abilties or to be allowed passed a level. In many LP MUDs quest were challenges to prove you should be allowed past certain things. XP was gotten by killing things. They were two quite different mechanics. A quest was generally a small description you could access on a bulletin board or a help file and you had to figure everything out based upon the world and that small description. They were basically something to prove that you were "good" at the world of the MUD and prevented pure monster grinding.
I am not saying this is a good mechanic. In fact I rather disliked it. Some people rather liked it. But people should realize and admit these things can and have been used in ways you are not considering. Don't be slaves to your assimptions based on one decade of stuff is an obviously stagnant genre (MMORPGs).
I will say the reason I disliked it is mainly a practical and not a design thing. Most MUDs were made by volunteers and there was no guarantee you were given a "fair" puzzle for the quests and on some MUDs there was a sort "networking" sort of thing people would do to get solution to certain not particularlly well written/not made fair quests. Note that in most LP MUDs giving away quest solutions and in some cases hidden Guilds (roughly analogous to a class) was bannable offense. And wikis were not yet prevalent.
Anyway there is a tension between giving players a "fair"/useful amount of information and giving them spoilers. There is very much an art to it. I would say though that the "WoW style" questing system completely throws this out the window as there is no way to spoil something "on rails". This is perhaps the way to differentiate.
Agreed on old crpgs, but they harp on maps and mapmarking so much, its all amusing.
Even in Fallout 1/2 things were put on your map. In fact you cant find Vault 15 in F2 without someone putting in on your map.
Even on start of both 1 and 2 "the nearby settlment" was marked on your map.
Putting things on your map is there because theres maps and theres people who *gasp* know haw to use them and can *gasp* show it to you on a map. When someone tells you theres 3 miles north, you can damn sure mark it on a map.
As far as WoW go, it was an upgrade from EQ. Yeah, its not anything really spectacular but at that time it was big as far as MMOs go.
SWTOR took its own twist on it with interactable cutscenes but i guess its just too costly and unwieldy.
The closest to those crpgs is GW2, where you have personal story that somewhat leads you around, but on your way to there there are marked and even more unmarked stuff to do AND you can completely disregard personal story and just go on doing your own thing. Its still limited in the scope, but its best take on it so far.
The questing of modern day MMORPG cannot, by reasonable people, be seen as analogous to the mechanics used in the classic standouts of CRPGs over the context of the genre's life.
Ultima 4&5
Ultima Underworld
Pool of Radiance and other gold box games
Wasteland and Fallout 1&2 series
It is true that all of those games gave you some overall direction, but this is not analogous to to the "wow-style" questing system and I think Garriot might have smacked you in the 80s if you suggested Ultima 4 should have such a thing.
It is also true that later iterations of some of those series (fallout 3 notably) do have a system that is more analogous to the "WoW-style" questing.
But suggesting that any sort of "story guidance" is roughly the same as having a full blown WoW/modern MMO questing system. Well that is just way too much of a stretch to be reasonable.
I would also like to say that many MUDs "questing" system was considerably different than what is currently widely seen and that people are being extremely narrowminded.
In many LP style MUDs the quest system was not "content" per se. Rather they were requirements to achieve certain abilties or to be allowed passed a level. In many LP MUDs quest were challenges to prove you should be allowed past certain things. XP was gotten by killing things. They were two quite different mechanics. A quest was generally a small description you could access on a bulletin board or a help file and you had to figure everything out based upon the world and that small description. They were basically something to prove that you were "good" at the world of the MUD and prevented pure monster grinding.
I am not saying this is a good mechanic. In fact I rather disliked it. Some people rather liked it. But people should realize and admit these things can and have been used in ways you are not considering. Don't be slaves to your assimptions based on one decade of stuff is an obviously stagnant genre (MMORPGs).
I will say the reason I disliked it is mainly a practical and not a design thing. Most MUDs were made by volunteers and there was no guarantee you were given a "fair" puzzle for the quests and on some MUDs there was a sort "networking" sort of thing people would do to get solution to certain not particularlly well written/not made fair quests. Note that in most LP MUDs giving away quest solutions and in some cases hidden Guilds (roughly analogous to a class) was bannable offense. And wikis were not yet prevalent.
Anyway there is a tension between giving players a "fair"/useful amount of information and giving them spoilers. There is very much an art to it. I would say though that the "WoW style" questing system completely throws this out the window as there is no way to spoil something "on rails". This is perhaps the way to differentiate.
I can't really speak to most of those games, except a handful of gold box games. But in those games, the storyline wasn't sparse and difficult to follow out of some master plan that that's how RPGs were meant to be. It was purely that they didn't have the resources to do it any better. So you'd get brief snippets of story now and then, often with poor instructions on how to leap to the next story segment, and the result was early CRPGs.
So the traits of early CRPGs weren't entirely deliberate. If they could have offered more story content, they quite likely would have. I'm not sure it would've fixed the trend of early designers where finding the next thing to do was poorly explained and super specific (adventure games being the biggest example of this), but eventually that worked itself out of design and we got better at creating good, intuitive puzzles (though admittedly those aren't really found in MMORPG quests; even the "combat puzzle" rarely gets used in a tightly-balanced way during questing -- most of the time quests are far too easy for the nuances of a class to emerge, and that's disappointing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think MMO does need to be able to stand apart from RPG because great games come into existence through this. Defining online gaming through a mechanic like RPG systems limits the genre (or really the universe in which multiple genres, RPG and non-RPG can exist)
But don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
The problem with RPG is its translation and usage from PnP to CPU.
Some games clumsily translate a PnP engine straight to computer and this causes HORRIBLE gameplay issues.
Example: DDO. What do you mean I can only cast Magic Missile ONE TIME PER IN GAME DAY!?!? Not only is my mage a glass cannon, now he's practically a single shot one and done member of the party.
Other games develop their RPG engine from the ground up and just do a bad job.
How many times has WOW changed the Stat of the Month to try to change the endgame experience. And the talent system?
What's forgotten here is the work that went into something like the original D&D, GURPS or other pen and paper game.
The RPG mechanic itself is a corner easily cut when designing a game and worrying about Models, Animations, Textures, Terrain, Gear Sprite Icons, and every other widget that a developer has to put together, not to mention graphics engine and network coding that some games flounder on for their entire lifespan.
Want a good MMORPG? Build a good RPG (but be conscious of the difference between tabletop and computer/console) and give it a Computer/Console Game engine to live within.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.
The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.
So, in other words, it didnt have any except ones you made up.
And you can do that in any MMO, AND have addition of dev provided ones.
And how many of these linear action mmo's actually have rp tools these days? rp servers? How many can you do custom emotes in? No alot. FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to. The more rp tools the more the game allows you to immerse yourself in rp. The more open the world vs. linear the more it allows you to immerse yourself in the world. Hell, and how about trying to rp when everyone else is running around with stupid names and acting 2015? Where are the rp servers these days? NO game makes them anymore.
I think the majority of rp naysayers here are not rp'ers, so basically you should not even be talking about something you know nothing about.
This is why you shouldnt write anything about something you obviously have no clue.
Pretty much every modern MMO has more RP tools than any "old school" and RP servers.
Even if theres no "official" RP servers theres always community designated RP servers.
And with mega servers you can RP with ANYONE who plays the game, its only on you to find people within much larger pool. Ive seen people RPing in every MMO i ever played. But i guess some people are not so close minded like some others.
Oh really? Name these RP tools "Mr. I know more than you". name me the new MMOs where you can sit at a table in a tavern and emote freely. Bring it.
As the fact you don't understand the difference between an official rp server and a community designated one shows perhaps you should be the one questioning YOUR knowledge of this subject.
Uuh...World of Warcraft and Lord of the Rings Online? Do I get a cookie for "bringing it"?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to.
I hate to pee in your FFXIV flavored cheerios, but LOTRO has way more RP tools and is way more RP friendly than that game. It's also one of the few games in which RP server rules are REALLY enforced, aka one of the few (if not the only) game with a real RP server (Laurelin).
Fortunately for Viper and me, we prefer to play in an RP-friendly MMO instead of an RP-friendly shopping mall.
FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to.
I hate to pee in your FFXIV flavored cheerios, but LOTRO has way more RP tools and is way more RP friendly than that game. It's also one of the few games in which RP server rules are REALLY enforced, aka one of the few (if not the only) game with a real RP server (Laurelin).
RMT filled enviroment is not really what I would call RP friendly.
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
This is all cute but it's wrong, the rpg element are what made mmorpg so famous, don't believe me? check out darkfal unholy wars, sandbox with 0 quest , amazing graphics, fluid gameplay still huge fail no one even knows about this title. It has no more classes, pvp is dumb no character advanement no pve. WoW was good but we all need something new and company's are trying their best. I have high hopes for Lost Ark and lineage Eternal and there are others that have chance
FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to.
I hate to pee in your FFXIV flavored cheerios, but LOTRO has way more RP tools and is way more RP friendly than that game. It's also one of the few games in which RP server rules are REALLY enforced, aka one of the few (if not the only) game with a real RP server (Laurelin).
Fortunately for Viper and me, we prefer to play in an RP-friendly MMO instead of an RP-friendly shopping mall.
Awwwww, so when you HAVE to pay, that makes it so much more RP friendlier.
Unfortunately, for Viper and you, no game can stand to your high standards. probably better that way.
Looking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.
And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.
Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
This argument is so flawed that it is hard to even begin. But, let me try. First of all, every game is technically an RPG first and foremost. Every player plays a "role" in a game and it matters not the game. So really to remove the "RPG" from MMO would be like removing the genre as a gaming format. Second, just because RPG were once played solo does not mean that they can not be play today either solo, co-op or multi-player. And finally, it not the "RPG" that is to blame for the downward trend (if any) of MMO's, but rather the lack of GOOD MMO's.
And for the record, all of the MMO's listed above are RPG's.
Was the OP trolling? Just that it seems like an illogical post to me.
The questing of modern day MMORPG cannot, by reasonable people, be seen as analogous to the mechanics used in the classic standouts of CRPGs over the context of the genre's life.
Ultima 4&5
Ultima Underworld
Pool of Radiance and other gold box games
Wasteland and Fallout 1&2 series
etc.
It is true that all of those games gave you some overall direction, but this is not analogous to to the "wow-style" questing system and I think Garriot might have smacked you in the 80s if you suggested Ultima 4 should have such a thing.
It is also true that later iterations of some of those series (fallout 3 notably) do have a system that is more analogous to the "WoW-style" questing.
But suggesting that any sort of "story guidance" is roughly the same as having a full blown WoW/modern MMO questing system. Well that is just way too much of a stretch to be reasonable.
I would also like to say that many MUDs "questing" system was considerably different than what is currently widely seen and that people are being extremely narrowminded.
In many LP style MUDs the quest system was not "content" per se. Rather they were requirements to achieve certain abilties or to be allowed passed a level. In many LP MUDs quest were challenges to prove you should be allowed past certain things. XP was gotten by killing things. They were two quite different mechanics. A quest was generally a small description you could access on a bulletin board or a help file and you had to figure everything out based upon the world and that small description. They were basically something to prove that you were "good" at the world of the MUD and prevented pure monster grinding.
I am not saying this is a good mechanic. In fact I rather disliked it. Some people rather liked it. But people should realize and admit these things can and have been used in ways you are not considering. Don't be slaves to your assimptions based on one decade of stuff is an obviously stagnant genre (MMORPGs).
I will say the reason I disliked it is mainly a practical and not a design thing. Most MUDs were made by volunteers and there was no guarantee you were given a "fair" puzzle for the quests and on some MUDs there was a sort "networking" sort of thing people would do to get solution to certain not particularlly well written/not made fair quests. Note that in most LP MUDs giving away quest solutions and in some cases hidden Guilds (roughly analogous to a class) was bannable offense. And wikis were not yet prevalent.
Anyway there is a tension between giving players a "fair"/useful amount of information and giving them spoilers. There is very much an art to it. I would say though that the "WoW style" questing system completely throws this out the window as there is no way to spoil something "on rails". This is perhaps the way to differentiate.
If your grandfather was never born, you wouldn't be here. The same goes with pen and paper rpgs, crpgs, muds as to mmorpgs. And that's that.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
One of the reasons that most current MMOs are dominated by quests and story progression is the small amount of geographical content. I think back to what for me was the best ever CRPG, Daggerfall. Yes, there was a plot line to be followed, but you really could ignore it and just do what you wanted, and still find plenty to do. In a game like WoW, you really can't just go off and explore, because the world is too small.
Build an MMO with a world the size of Daggerfall, and you will see a different dynamic.
2. the premise that every game includes roleplaying is essentially just the murder of the term's denotation. There is as much RP in these games as there is in throwing a paper airplane.
3. MMOs continue to evolve toward an interface that is more restrictive, which further pulls them away from RPGs: known for the ability to do what you want.
4. The Fourth Wall is always a star in MMORPGs in the form of shithead character names, bigotry, virtual capitalism, and social interactions otherwise not monitored by the human conscience.
5. The audience has received what they would pay for, so fuck 'em.
6. Strategic Wargame Simulator and Chat Room Virtual Marketplace is too cumbersome, so MMORPG will obviously stay as the name.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
I'm starting to think that a lot of folks around here just love to hear themselves speak. First off, what recent MMO slump? Do you mean You are in a slump? I'm playing eso with a whole lotta buncha other players and there's no talks of slumps in game. I think some players mistake the fact that they are not happy with any games out for a problem with the genre as a whole. For every one of the vocal posters on this site, there are 50 people playing games and no coming to forum sites to complain. This site and others like it are the overwhelming minority of gamer opinion, not the other way around. Just because people come here to complain doesn't mean that there's a problem with the genre. The genre is making plenty of money with happy gamers. I'm one of them.
Captain Obvious, perhaps. But it bears repeating whenever the bitchin' gets out of hand.
On the other hand, it takes so many contradictory (and repetitive) gripes keep the post counts rollin' merrily along.
The questing of modern day MMORPG cannot, by reasonable people, be seen as analogous to the mechanics used in the classic standouts of CRPGs over the context of the genre's life.
Ultima 4&5
Ultima Underworld
Pool of Radiance and other gold box games
Wasteland and Fallout 1&2 series
etc.
It is true that all of those games gave you some overall direction, but this is not analogous to to the "wow-style" questing system and I think Garriot might have smacked you in the 80s if you suggested Ultima 4 should have such a thing.
It is also true that later iterations of some of those series (fallout 3 notably) do have a system that is more analogous to the "WoW-style" questing.
But suggesting that any sort of "story guidance" is roughly the same as having a full blown WoW/modern MMO questing system. Well that is just way too much of a stretch to be reasonable.
I would also like to say that many MUDs "questing" system was considerably different than what is currently widely seen and that people are being extremely narrowminded.
In many LP style MUDs the quest system was not "content" per se. Rather they were requirements to achieve certain abilties or to be allowed passed a level. In many LP MUDs quest were challenges to prove you should be allowed past certain things. XP was gotten by killing things. They were two quite different mechanics. A quest was generally a small description you could access on a bulletin board or a help file and you had to figure everything out based upon the world and that small description. They were basically something to prove that you were "good" at the world of the MUD and prevented pure monster grinding.
I am not saying this is a good mechanic. In fact I rather disliked it. Some people rather liked it. But people should realize and admit these things can and have been used in ways you are not considering. Don't be slaves to your assimptions based on one decade of stuff is an obviously stagnant genre (MMORPGs).
I will say the reason I disliked it is mainly a practical and not a design thing. Most MUDs were made by volunteers and there was no guarantee you were given a "fair" puzzle for the quests and on some MUDs there was a sort "networking" sort of thing people would do to get solution to certain not particularlly well written/not made fair quests. Note that in most LP MUDs giving away quest solutions and in some cases hidden Guilds (roughly analogous to a class) was bannable offense. And wikis were not yet prevalent.
Anyway there is a tension between giving players a "fair"/useful amount of information and giving them spoilers. There is very much an art to it. I would say though that the "WoW style" questing system completely throws this out the window as there is no way to spoil something "on rails". This is perhaps the way to differentiate.
If your grandfather was never born, you wouldn't be here. The same goes with pen and paper rpgs, crpgs, muds as to mmorpgs. And that's that.
My grandfather, before he passed, was twice as smart, twice as competent, twice as tolerant and twice as technically savy in his 90s as most 30 year olds I have met in the modern day. And all that on an 8th grade education even with Woodrow Wilson doing whacked crap like banning the teaching of German to kids in elementary school in places in with large amounts of german immigrants (not that he cared, he couldn't remember any german in his adult years, still might have come in handy in international business). He turned a single peanut vending machine into a milltion dollar enterprise starting from the middle of the Great depression. And although all his children are decently successful and good people they really don't quite hit that mark.
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
You obviously were not there and have no clue about that which you speak. How many story lines from EQ did you want linked? A dozen? A hundred? Two hundred? Did you want small tales (the ongoing conflict between the halfings and dark elves) or epic sagas over a decade in the telling (Mayong)?
To give you an idea, most factions on this list have their own sets of stories: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/flist.com Those stores are told through the quests and quest dialogs.
That is just the factions, not all stories were tied to a specific faction.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Eq had maybe 1/10th the stories abd I'm being very generous with that number.
i accidentaly clicked your link and "404 - not found"
i think its very fitting
those games were barren and heres a sample of "epic quest"
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=756
notice the richness of expression, all of 1 option and responses on level of 3 year old child.
Please, those "quests" were insulting your intelligence.
As i said, very poor, clumsy and deeply flawed attempt at mmoRPGs. But thats all in the past, thank the allmighty
Yet is still much more difficult to do then the quests that you see in games today. First you had to find the NPC. Then you had to locate all the NPCs and mobs in between.
Even with that said the dialogue was far better then what I see in games today IMO. That is personal opinion though.
Not all quests used the same keyword.
Having to type in one keyword is still more complex then clicking on an NPC and clicking accept.
I was thinking that if this had been done with audio dialogue it might be a lot more acceptable in this day and age. Dark Souls is a good example. Click on the NPC and he gives you a little information. Click on him again and he gives you a little more information. There is no actual quest per say (just like EQ), but you get hints on what to do and where to go. EQ actually gives you coordinates in specific zones (in this quest) which is more then what Dark Souls gives you. The neat thing is that there is no actual quest (in a log) so you can meet up with random people along the way and help each other to complete it possible.
Oh really? Name these RP tools "Mr. I know more than you". name me the new MMOs where you can sit at a table in a tavern and emote freely. Bring it.
As the fact you don't understand the difference between an official rp server and a community designated one shows perhaps you should be the one questioning YOUR knowledge of this subject.
Oh really. I let you bask in your ignorance.
BUT what is clearly shown is that you havent even tried games you bash. Thats the most amusing points since you also accuse other of knowledge on the subject lol
The point that you say thet FFXIV is "most non linear and open worlded" of the new crop of MMOs is absolutely hilarious
Again, its really funny how you guys still wonder why noone takes you seriously.
took 10 seconds
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Emotes
ignorance is ignorance
IMO, the genre has taken the easiest routes which is to organize and tell the story for you. This allows developers to control and sale player content. This is also the most expensive way to go and the hardest to keep up because player blow through it. You constantly have to make new quest.
The genre is about social interaction period. Spin it how you like about what developers have done or do the genre is there to put players together in singular world(s). There is no right way to do these gamea but to deemphasize the orginal intent and most unique defining feature is odd.
The questing of modern day MMORPG cannot, by reasonable people, be seen as analogous to the mechanics used in the classic standouts of CRPGs over the context of the genre's life.
Ultima 4&5
Ultima Underworld
Pool of Radiance and other gold box games
Wasteland and Fallout 1&2 series
etc.
It is true that all of those games gave you some overall direction, but this is not analogous to to the "wow-style" questing system and I think Garriot might have smacked you in the 80s if you suggested Ultima 4 should have such a thing.
It is also true that later iterations of some of those series (fallout 3 notably) do have a system that is more analogous to the "WoW-style" questing.
But suggesting that any sort of "story guidance" is roughly the same as having a full blown WoW/modern MMO questing system. Well that is just way too much of a stretch to be reasonable.
I would also like to say that many MUDs "questing" system was considerably different than what is currently widely seen and that people are being extremely narrowminded.
In many LP style MUDs the quest system was not "content" per se. Rather they were requirements to achieve certain abilties or to be allowed passed a level. In many LP MUDs quest were challenges to prove you should be allowed past certain things. XP was gotten by killing things. They were two quite different mechanics. A quest was generally a small description you could access on a bulletin board or a help file and you had to figure everything out based upon the world and that small description. They were basically something to prove that you were "good" at the world of the MUD and prevented pure monster grinding.
I am not saying this is a good mechanic. In fact I rather disliked it. Some people rather liked it. But people should realize and admit these things can and have been used in ways you are not considering. Don't be slaves to your assimptions based on one decade of stuff is an obviously stagnant genre (MMORPGs).
I will say the reason I disliked it is mainly a practical and not a design thing. Most MUDs were made by volunteers and there was no guarantee you were given a "fair" puzzle for the quests and on some MUDs there was a sort "networking" sort of thing people would do to get solution to certain not particularlly well written/not made fair quests. Note that in most LP MUDs giving away quest solutions and in some cases hidden Guilds (roughly analogous to a class) was bannable offense. And wikis were not yet prevalent.
Anyway there is a tension between giving players a "fair"/useful amount of information and giving them spoilers. There is very much an art to it. I would say though that the "WoW style" questing system completely throws this out the window as there is no way to spoil something "on rails". This is perhaps the way to differentiate.
Agreed on old crpgs, but they harp on maps and mapmarking so much, its all amusing.
Even in Fallout 1/2 things were put on your map. In fact you cant find Vault 15 in F2 without someone putting in on your map.
Even on start of both 1 and 2 "the nearby settlment" was marked on your map.
Putting things on your map is there because theres maps and theres people who *gasp* know haw to use them and can *gasp* show it to you on a map. When someone tells you theres 3 miles north, you can damn sure mark it on a map.
As far as WoW go, it was an upgrade from EQ. Yeah, its not anything really spectacular but at that time it was big as far as MMOs go.
SWTOR took its own twist on it with interactable cutscenes but i guess its just too costly and unwieldy.
The closest to those crpgs is GW2, where you have personal story that somewhat leads you around, but on your way to there there are marked and even more unmarked stuff to do AND you can completely disregard personal story and just go on doing your own thing. Its still limited in the scope, but its best take on it so far.
I can't really speak to most of those games, except a handful of gold box games. But in those games, the storyline wasn't sparse and difficult to follow out of some master plan that that's how RPGs were meant to be. It was purely that they didn't have the resources to do it any better. So you'd get brief snippets of story now and then, often with poor instructions on how to leap to the next story segment, and the result was early CRPGs.
So the traits of early CRPGs weren't entirely deliberate. If they could have offered more story content, they quite likely would have. I'm not sure it would've fixed the trend of early designers where finding the next thing to do was poorly explained and super specific (adventure games being the biggest example of this), but eventually that worked itself out of design and we got better at creating good, intuitive puzzles (though admittedly those aren't really found in MMORPG quests; even the "combat puzzle" rarely gets used in a tightly-balanced way during questing -- most of the time quests are far too easy for the nuances of a class to emerge, and that's disappointing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I couldn't agree more and less at the same time.
I think MMO does need to be able to stand apart from RPG because great games come into existence through this. Defining online gaming through a mechanic like RPG systems limits the genre (or really the universe in which multiple genres, RPG and non-RPG can exist)
But don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
The problem with RPG is its translation and usage from PnP to CPU.
Some games clumsily translate a PnP engine straight to computer and this causes HORRIBLE gameplay issues.
Example: DDO. What do you mean I can only cast Magic Missile ONE TIME PER IN GAME DAY!?!? Not only is my mage a glass cannon, now he's practically a single shot one and done member of the party.
Other games develop their RPG engine from the ground up and just do a bad job.
How many times has WOW changed the Stat of the Month to try to change the endgame experience. And the talent system?
What's forgotten here is the work that went into something like the original D&D, GURPS or other pen and paper game.
The RPG mechanic itself is a corner easily cut when designing a game and worrying about Models, Animations, Textures, Terrain, Gear Sprite Icons, and every other widget that a developer has to put together, not to mention graphics engine and network coding that some games flounder on for their entire lifespan.
Want a good MMORPG? Build a good RPG (but be conscious of the difference between tabletop and computer/console) and give it a Computer/Console Game engine to live within.
Uuh...World of Warcraft and Lord of the Rings Online? Do I get a cookie for "bringing it"?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Fortunately for Viper and me, we prefer to play in an RP-friendly MMO instead of an RP-friendly shopping mall.
RMT filled enviroment is not really what I would call RP friendly.
This is all cute but it's wrong, the rpg element are what made mmorpg so famous, don't believe me? check out darkfal unholy wars, sandbox with 0 quest , amazing graphics, fluid gameplay still huge fail no one even knows about this title. It has no more classes, pvp is dumb no character advanement no pve. WoW was good but we all need something new and company's are trying their best. I have high hopes for Lost Ark and lineage Eternal and there are others that have chance
Awwwww, so when you HAVE to pay, that makes it so much more RP friendlier.
Unfortunately, for Viper and you, no game can stand to your high standards. probably better that way.
This argument is so flawed that it is hard to even begin. But, let me try. First of all, every game is technically an RPG first and foremost. Every player plays a "role" in a game and it matters not the game. So really to remove the "RPG" from MMO would be like removing the genre as a gaming format. Second, just because RPG were once played solo does not mean that they can not be play today either solo, co-op or multi-player. And finally, it not the "RPG" that is to blame for the downward trend (if any) of MMO's, but rather the lack of GOOD MMO's.
And for the record, all of the MMO's listed above are RPG's.
Was the OP trolling? Just that it seems like an illogical post to me.
Let's party like it is 1863!
If your grandfather was never born, you wouldn't be here. The same goes with pen and paper rpgs, crpgs, muds as to mmorpgs. And that's that.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
One of the reasons that most current MMOs are dominated by quests and story progression is the small amount of geographical content. I think back to what for me was the best ever CRPG, Daggerfall. Yes, there was a plot line to be followed, but you really could ignore it and just do what you wanted, and still find plenty to do. In a game like WoW, you really can't just go off and explore, because the world is too small.
Build an MMO with a world the size of Daggerfall, and you will see a different dynamic.
1. Even early MMORPGs were not much of an RPG.
2. the premise that every game includes roleplaying is essentially just the murder of the term's denotation. There is as much RP in these games as there is in throwing a paper airplane.
3. MMOs continue to evolve toward an interface that is more restrictive, which further pulls them away from RPGs: known for the ability to do what you want.
4. The Fourth Wall is always a star in MMORPGs in the form of shithead character names, bigotry, virtual capitalism, and social interactions otherwise not monitored by the human conscience.
5. The audience has received what they would pay for, so fuck 'em.
6. Strategic Wargame Simulator and Chat Room Virtual Marketplace is too cumbersome, so MMORPG will obviously stay as the name.
Captain Obvious, perhaps. But it bears repeating whenever the bitchin' gets out of hand.
On the other hand, it takes so many contradictory (and repetitive) gripes keep the post counts rollin' merrily along.
My grandfather, before he passed, was twice as smart, twice as competent, twice as tolerant and twice as technically savy in his 90s as most 30 year olds I have met in the modern day. And all that on an 8th grade education even with Woodrow Wilson doing whacked crap like banning the teaching of German to kids in elementary school in places in with large amounts of german immigrants (not that he cared, he couldn't remember any german in his adult years, still might have come in handy in international business). He turned a single peanut vending machine into a milltion dollar enterprise starting from the middle of the Great depression. And although all his children are decently successful and good people they really don't quite hit that mark.
So I am not sure what your point is.