Another good RP tool was having languages. Not all races understood each other. Many people didn't like the way you had to spam to learn a language though. Still it was a roleplaying tool. Not being able to understand what others were saying made you feel an outcast which makes sense in some situations. People could choose to speak in their own language and not the common tongue to exclude others.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.
The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.
So, in other words, it didnt have any except ones you made up.
And you can do that in any MMO, AND have addition of dev provided ones.
And how many of these linear action mmo's actually have rp tools these days? rp servers? How many can you do custom emotes in? No alot. FFXIV is probably the most rp friendly newer mmo out there, I can't even think of another one to compare it to. The more rp tools the more the game allows you to immerse yourself in rp. The more open the world vs. linear the more it allows you to immerse yourself in the world. Hell, and how about trying to rp when everyone else is running around with stupid names and acting 2015? Where are the rp servers these days? NO game makes them anymore.
I think the majority of rp naysayers here are not rp'ers, so basically you should not even be talking about something you know nothing about.
This is why you shouldnt write anything about something you obviously have no clue.
Pretty much every modern MMO has more RP tools than any "old school" and RP servers.
Even if theres no "official" RP servers theres always community designated RP servers.
And with mega servers you can RP with ANYONE who plays the game, its only on you to find people within much larger pool. Ive seen people RPing in every MMO i ever played. But i guess some people are not so close minded like some others.
As a pen and paper roleplayer I think the opposite, freedom is the thing that define roleplaying. And in fact where many of the earlier RPGs what most of us here would call sandboxes.
Adding tons of cutscenes and forcing you to do certain things or playing a certain ways is Railroading, not RPG. But I guess a ton of crappy single player games like Mass effect and Dragon age have made people forget that.
MMOs should move closer to pen and paper roleplaying and further away from Diablo and Dragon age in my opinion. If Im a thief and I want to break into the royal palace to steal the crown jewels that should be a possibility, it should be freaking hard but possible instead of forcing me to save the world in a bunch of scripted instances.
MMOs is better the less npcs tells me what to do and the same goes for roleplaying games.
As long as it is written how it should be and it has an impact, Idgaf if it is linear or if it is open-ended. Tbh, I prefer linear. Can you name three outstanding open ended RPGs? Because I can name at least 5 very good linear not GAMES, but SERIES! Here:
-> Mass Effect
-> Dragon Age
-> Baldur's Gate
-> Neverwinter Nights
-> The Witcher
-> edit: KoTOR
and some assorted others: Dungeon Siege, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale, Diablo, Final Fantasy.
Hm?
edit: Sandboxes are like DM decided to either leave or do whatever everyone wanted. And I think, that is not what you would call a quality PnP, is it now? Sure, linear is kinda railroaded, but so were you must of the time when playing PnP. It's just that in PnP you had to either comply or GTFO. I think you understand me, yes?
I don't agree about Neverwinter nights at all, we had a dungeon master and were running custom made campaigns when we played it, it was very sandboxy that way even if the single player campaign in itself were railroaded.
Fine:
The Elder scrolls (Daggerfall, Morrowwind, Skyrim, Oblivion but not the first one or the MMO from zenimax).
Red dead.
Fallout.
Mount and blade
There are plenty of games that brings you a world and allow you to choose sides and solve problems your own way. In pen and paper the GM often sets up the goal for the players but the players decide gow they will reach them. RP should require some thinking and always being told what to do and how to do it sucks in pen and paper and computer games as well.
I think questing can be in an MMO an be a positive thing, but I would prefer games avoiding separating players in game spaces because of them. For example in WoW or ESO where players suddenly hecome invisible or pop into existence based on their progress on a quest in relation to you. That I believe takes more away from the MMO than it provides.
Ahhhhh, so when "10 year old game" has it its awsome, when modern game has it its throwaway.
And you still wonder why people dont take you guys seriously rofl
The only issue I have with the housing mechanics in Archeage is that people lose their plots, and all their work.
While housing is an important feature for me, it is not the only aspect of the game I play. If the other aspects I enjoy are missing, I won't play the game. Why should I endure P2W cash shop models or a PvP focused end game when I can enjoy a well done housing system in a subscription based MMO with far more content and a PvE focused end game?
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
You all seem like understanding people, so let's skip the bull. You also all know why exactly MMO's in whole are going the crapper.
1- Games released years before being done.
2- Game breaking cash shops.
3- The gimmick of "pre ordering" and getting "cool" stuff over those who don't pre order.
4- Crappy RNG Random Number Generator, where some will get kick ass gear and others that contributed equally receive a piece of meat?
5- Paying 50-60$ on a unfinished title, and having to pay a monthly is / was down right stupid, *cough* TESO.
I can keep going, but RPG in MMO's is not at all the problem, the problem are devs trying to squeeze every penny out of your pockets, and they're succeeding, sadly.
A MMO or any type of online gaming is not considered gaming when you feel obliged on putting in real currency in order to be relevant, it becomes gambling. Huge difference that 99% of MMO gamers fail to realize.
Agree with everything except Cash Shops. Most western MMO's have palatable cash shops. Subscriptions are not conducive to valued game play, and offers even less monetary value. I think we've seen F2P and B2P as the only decent business model outside of WoW and Eve or some super niche indie MMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I think questing can be in an MMO an be a positive thing, but I would prefer games avoiding separating players in game spaces because of them. For example in WoW or ESO where players suddenly hecome invisible or pop into existence based on their progress on a quest in relation to you. That I believe takes more away from the MMO than it provides.
This is all part of the GPS, super linear path. People seem to want to be able to get into the game, do something quickly, and log out.
Quests don't need to be so structured. They can be more freeform where you might get hints about different things going on in the world and happen upon someone else who also heard the same hint.
You could also have a main quest that is far away and other things popup as you are traveling along/exploring aka the Baldur's Gate games.
The thing that kills it for me is having a super direct path through the entire game with no choices or freedom (single player content wise).
"Runs and hides waiting for people to say you can do that if you want to!"
Quests don't need to be so structured. They can be more freeform where you might get hints about different things going on in the world and happen upon someone else who also heard the same hint.
This is how quests, and story lines, originally worked in EQ.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
You could also have a main quest that is far away and other things popup as you are traveling along/exploring aka the Baldur's Gate games.
Which is present in some games. ESO and TSW both come to mind.
Both have "main quests" but there are plenty of smaller stories to explore off the beaten path. TSW even has the part you mentioned about only getting a clue and having to figure the rest out yourself.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Quests don't need to be so structured. They can be more freeform where you might get hints about different things going on in the world and happen upon someone else who also heard the same hint.
This is how quests, and story lines, originally worked in EQ.
Not exactly.
There were no exclamation marks to show witch NPCs had quests.
The NPCs only gave you hints about what needed to be done and where to go most of the time.
Required NPCs would often wander to many different zones and the quests would often require you to go to many different zones.
This is not regarding the ones that were tasks. For instance get me 10 legionnaire belts.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
There are certain gaming elements that are the makeup of what makes an RPG. EQ had them. The difference is that RPG's are single player games first, then MMO prefix was attached to that. To design an MMORPG, you have to translate RPG elements so that multiple players can enjoy a similar gaming experience and features. The fact was, that they wanted the players to make their own story and place in the world. Again someone who doesn't know what an RPG is. RPG's are not just confined to roleplaying choices, there are other gaming elements that are associated with that. Which leaves me with this thought on your post...
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Bullshit. Making your own story is just a sorry excuse made up by EQ apologists. I can say that about any game then. I can make my own story in shooters too and in pretty much every game.
Eq was a grinder and yes it was labelled as rpg cause it had levels and classes.
If only you actually gave examples but then again you better keep your mouth shut right? We don't want to dispel any doubts now do we?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
RPG is what gave birth to the virtual worlds that you call MMOs. Those nerdy groups that sat around tables creating characters is what spawned the birth of what would eventually blossom into MMOs.
Oh...this too ^
Anyone who thinks MMOs were made from any other thing than table top PnPs...is delusional
Computer RPGs. That spawned MMORPGs. You know someone is near retirement age if they keep on talking about pnp RPGs.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
Everquest had more stories at launch than any 2-3 modern MMO's combined.
The difference was, you had to find the stories. They were not handed to you by NPC's standing around a hub with icons over their heads.
Any 2-3 MMOs combined? You must be high. Wow and ESO EACH trump eq's story by a very very long shot. EQ doesn't even come close to the amount of story content In ESO. And that's a fact.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by fivoroth I agree with the OP. And rofl at those people claiming EQ was an rpg. EQ was a grinder devoid of character roleplaying choices and a compelling story. It had more in common with hack and slash games than RPGs.
You have no idea what roleplaying is if you think a game needs to hand hold you through it.
Nice try but I never implied that there needs to be handholding. An rpg can be more open ended where you are left to your own devices ala skyrim or can be more guided and story driven like the bio ware classics.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by LobotomistLooking back on MMO genre and its recent slump, one has to ask what is the reason MMORPG reached the stuck point it find itself now.
It is easy to blame WOW and Themepark mentality. But where lies the real problem ? In RPG.
The original MMOs like Ultima Online or Everquest were very open. Their only resemblance to traditional RPG games was the character building. It is only when Blizzard decided to improve the formula and bring important part of RPG experience : questing , that MMORPG as we know it now was born.
This RPG formula is improved among with everything else and today we have games like ESO or KOTOR that can stand without shame beside single player RPGs in any way. Or even some that are innovating RPG experience like GW2
And this is the problem. RPG gameplay became the shackles of MMO.
MMO should be massive social experience. A virtual world. But RPG is single or at best small group experience. Completely opposite to what MMO should acomplish.
Only by renouncing RPG will MMO truly soar forward.And we are begining to see emergence of this "non rpg" games.Elite, Star Citizen, Minecraft, Survival games ...
New genre is emerging. MMO without RPG , and it was about the damn time.
Elite has quests, they are called bulletin board missions, there are even community evolved quests like the recent Lugh/Khaka etc community goals.
I think it is more about redefining questing and properly understanding what RPG is and how maybe it should be different from single player games RPG.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Quests don't need to be so structured. They can be more freeform where you might get hints about different things going on in the world and happen upon someone else who also heard the same hint.
This is how quests, and story lines, originally worked in EQ.
That's how GW2 was supposed to be, but they changed it during beta before launch. In a way, some of their dynamic events can only be started by talking to an NPC. After that though, the events have giant orange circles on the minimap, directing players towards them.
RPG is what gave birth to the virtual worlds that you call MMOs. Those nerdy groups that sat around tables creating characters is what spawned the birth of what would eventually blossom into MMOs.
Oh...this too ^
Anyone who thinks MMOs were made from any other thing than table top PnPs...is delusional
Computer RPGs. That spawned MMORPGs. You know someone is near retirement age if they keep on talking about pnp RPGs.
You failed your history course. Try reading some time:
The reason why those who STARTED in pnp prior to true MMORPGs know of it's influence because they lived through the evolution and do not require much addition research to uncover the facts. People of all ages still play pvp RPGs but not all understand the influence they have on MMOs.
PnP RPGs had a DIRECT influence on the transition of social fantasy games into the evolving computer and networking medium from the earliest steps of it's developments as far back as the 70s. The very origin of the MMORPG was to translate the pnp RPG experience to the PC. This was attempted but the complexity of such a translation failed to align with the ever growing restrictions of game development and business. Vision does not always align with cost. Vision is limitless and the MMORPG project failed and turned into the shell of itself we have today. So much so that players like you can't even grasp the vision that was attempted. There are no limits to imagination when playing a pnp RPG but there are those still wanting and willing to try ... in an industry designed entirely against it.
If you were aware of your own level of ignorance you would understand why others reading your post do so with great humor.
I think there are MMOs and then subcategories are MMORPGs/MMOFPS/MMO3PS/MMOetc. I'm pretty sure if you want to make a non-rpg MMO anyone can if they wanted to. But I enjoy MMORPGs. I DO NOT enjoy the FORCED QUESTING mmoRPGs except I guess ESO has kept me playing, but open-ended RPGs are fine... companies just don't want to make one. They want to make the themepark since it's less risk.
I think the issue is people consider an MMO just the MMORPG part of the genere. The genre is bigger now, so you can't blanketly state that the RPG portion is the issue. Make a 3PS MMO if you want. Make a twitch MMO if you want. You just need to find the correct niche and playerbase.
Quests don't need to be so structured. They can be more freeform where you might get hints about different things going on in the world and happen upon someone else who also heard the same hint.
This is how quests, and story lines, originally worked in EQ.
Not exactly.
There were no exclamation marks to show witch NPCs had quests.
The NPCs only gave you hints about what needed to be done and where to go most of the time.
Required NPCs would often wander to many different zones and the quests would often require you to go to many different zones.
This is not regarding the ones that were tasks. For instance get me 10 legionnaire belts.
Yes, this is what I was referring to. EQ did not throw the quests or stories in your face, but they were there. Significant player interaction was required to find and complete quests or uncover lore. Frequently, both were done at the same time.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Comments
A living game world is not just one aspect. All parts of the game must be well implemented and internally consistent.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Your ignorance is showing.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
This is why you shouldnt write anything about something you obviously have no clue.
Pretty much every modern MMO has more RP tools than any "old school" and RP servers.
Even if theres no "official" RP servers theres always community designated RP servers.
And with mega servers you can RP with ANYONE who plays the game, its only on you to find people within much larger pool. Ive seen people RPing in every MMO i ever played. But i guess some people are not so close minded like some others.
Ahhhhh, so when "10 year old game" has it its awsome, when modern game has it its throwaway.
And you still wonder why people dont take you guys seriously rofl
I don't agree about Neverwinter nights at all, we had a dungeon master and were running custom made campaigns when we played it, it was very sandboxy that way even if the single player campaign in itself were railroaded.
Fine:
The Elder scrolls (Daggerfall, Morrowwind, Skyrim, Oblivion but not the first one or the MMO from zenimax).
Red dead.
Fallout.
Mount and blade
There are plenty of games that brings you a world and allow you to choose sides and solve problems your own way. In pen and paper the GM often sets up the goal for the players but the players decide gow they will reach them. RP should require some thinking and always being told what to do and how to do it sucks in pen and paper and computer games as well.
I think questing can be in an MMO an be a positive thing, but I would prefer games avoiding separating players in game spaces because of them. For example in WoW or ESO where players suddenly hecome invisible or pop into existence based on their progress on a quest in relation to you. That I believe takes more away from the MMO than it provides.
The only issue I have with the housing mechanics in Archeage is that people lose their plots, and all their work.
While housing is an important feature for me, it is not the only aspect of the game I play. If the other aspects I enjoy are missing, I won't play the game. Why should I endure P2W cash shop models or a PvP focused end game when I can enjoy a well done housing system in a subscription based MMO with far more content and a PvE focused end game?
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Agree with everything except Cash Shops. Most western MMO's have palatable cash shops. Subscriptions are not conducive to valued game play, and offers even less monetary value. I think we've seen F2P and B2P as the only decent business model outside of WoW and Eve or some super niche indie MMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
This is all part of the GPS, super linear path. People seem to want to be able to get into the game, do something quickly, and log out.
Quests don't need to be so structured. They can be more freeform where you might get hints about different things going on in the world and happen upon someone else who also heard the same hint.
You could also have a main quest that is far away and other things popup as you are traveling along/exploring aka the Baldur's Gate games.
The thing that kills it for me is having a super direct path through the entire game with no choices or freedom (single player content wise).
"Runs and hides waiting for people to say you can do that if you want to!"
This is how quests, and story lines, originally worked in EQ.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Which is present in some games. ESO and TSW both come to mind.
Both have "main quests" but there are plenty of smaller stories to explore off the beaten path. TSW even has the part you mentioned about only getting a clue and having to figure the rest out yourself.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Nobody like easy things for long....
Playing other genres right now
But, but, but he attacked me when I was low life!
Yes, HE DID, why you cant do the same to him?
Uf that will take me a lot of time...
HERE IS YOUR QUEST!
Not exactly.
There were no exclamation marks to show witch NPCs had quests.
The NPCs only gave you hints about what needed to be done and where to go most of the time.
Required NPCs would often wander to many different zones and the quests would often require you to go to many different zones.
This is not regarding the ones that were tasks. For instance get me 10 legionnaire belts.
Bullshit. Making your own story is just a sorry excuse made up by EQ apologists. I can say that about any game then. I can make my own story in shooters too and in pretty much every game.
Eq was a grinder and yes it was labelled as rpg cause it had levels and classes.
If only you actually gave examples but then again you better keep your mouth shut right? We don't want to dispel any doubts now do we?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Computer RPGs. That spawned MMORPGs. You know someone is near retirement age if they keep on talking about pnp RPGs.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Any 2-3 MMOs combined? You must be high. Wow and ESO EACH trump eq's story by a very very long shot. EQ doesn't even come close to the amount of story content In ESO. And that's a fact.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Nice try but I never implied that there needs to be handholding. An rpg can be more open ended where you are left to your own devices ala skyrim or can be more guided and story driven like the bio ware classics.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I am thinking it is your ignorance that's showing. He's pretty much spot on and you simply don't have anything to come back with.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Elite has quests, they are called bulletin board missions, there are even community evolved quests like the recent Lugh/Khaka etc community goals.
I think it is more about redefining questing and properly understanding what RPG is and how maybe it should be different from single player games RPG.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
That's how GW2 was supposed to be, but they changed it during beta before launch. In a way, some of their dynamic events can only be started by talking to an NPC. After that though, the events have giant orange circles on the minimap, directing players towards them.
You failed your history course. Try reading some time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_massively_multiplayer_online_games
The reason why those who STARTED in pnp prior to true MMORPGs know of it's influence because they lived through the evolution and do not require much addition research to uncover the facts. People of all ages still play pvp RPGs but not all understand the influence they have on MMOs.
PnP RPGs had a DIRECT influence on the transition of social fantasy games into the evolving computer and networking medium from the earliest steps of it's developments as far back as the 70s. The very origin of the MMORPG was to translate the pnp RPG experience to the PC. This was attempted but the complexity of such a translation failed to align with the ever growing restrictions of game development and business. Vision does not always align with cost. Vision is limitless and the MMORPG project failed and turned into the shell of itself we have today. So much so that players like you can't even grasp the vision that was attempted. There are no limits to imagination when playing a pnp RPG but there are those still wanting and willing to try ... in an industry designed entirely against it.
If you were aware of your own level of ignorance you would understand why others reading your post do so with great humor.
You stay sassy!
I think there are MMOs and then subcategories are MMORPGs/MMOFPS/MMO3PS/MMOetc. I'm pretty sure if you want to make a non-rpg MMO anyone can if they wanted to. But I enjoy MMORPGs. I DO NOT enjoy the FORCED QUESTING mmoRPGs except I guess ESO has kept me playing, but open-ended RPGs are fine... companies just don't want to make one. They want to make the themepark since it's less risk.
I think the issue is people consider an MMO just the MMORPG part of the genere. The genre is bigger now, so you can't blanketly state that the RPG portion is the issue. Make a 3PS MMO if you want. Make a twitch MMO if you want. You just need to find the correct niche and playerbase.
Yes, this is what I was referring to. EQ did not throw the quests or stories in your face, but they were there. Significant player interaction was required to find and complete quests or uncover lore. Frequently, both were done at the same time.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Try making that statement on the forums at www.paizo.com, or at your FLGS.
Just because you don't play RPG's does not mean they are dead. (Though, sadly, my Saturday night campaign just got canceled
)
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin