So adverts would never replace cash shops, and just be annoying because the players have to put up with both.
No you don't. It is a free world. No one forces to play a particular game. If you do, it is because you want to.
In fact, aren't many people here who don't like cash shop stop playing MMOs because of that? A perfect example of the fact no one has to put up with anything in gaming.
I have been in guilds where the majority of members put up with the cash shop because of their love of the game or the theme the game was based on. They played in spite of the cash shop, there are hordes of them out there doing that Nari. But also as you say I know many who gave up on MMO's, not just because of cash shops and FTP but the easymode, solo player accessibility direction they moved in over the years.
But no one forces anyone to stay. In fact, you said it yourself ... "i know many who gave up on MMOs" ..hence no one puts up with anything. If they stay, it is because after they balance everything, they want to.
And from the total market perspective, there are MORE people playing F2P games with cash shops, not fewer. So I don't think most people hate cash shops that much .. at least not to the point of giving up gaming.
So adverts would never replace cash shops, and just be annoying because the players have to put up with both.
No you don't. It is a free world. No one forces to play a particular game. If you do, it is because you want to.
In fact, aren't many people here who don't like cash shop stop playing MMOs because of that? A perfect example of the fact no one has to put up with anything in gaming.
I have been in guilds where the majority of members put up with the cash shop because of their love of the game or the theme the game was based on. They played in spite of the cash shop, there are hordes of them out there doing that Nari. But also as you say I know many who gave up on MMO's, not just because of cash shops and FTP but the easymode, solo player accessibility direction they moved in over the years.
But no one forces anyone to stay. In fact, you said it yourself ... "i know many who gave up on MMOs" ..hence no one puts up with anything. If they stay, it is because after they balance everything, they want to.
And from the total market perspective, there are MORE people playing F2P games with cash shops, not fewer. So I don't think most people hate cash shops that much .. at least not to the point of giving up gaming.
Personally i find them easy to ignore.
There are more people playing, tons more. That should be your clue, so many that those now playing could not possibly be from the same pool we had fifteen or even five years ago. The MMO companies have chased a new audience, first solo gamers, then console, then social media users.
The numbers playing keep getting bigger. But people are playing games for shorter and shorter times. Be they solo, multiplayer or MMO games. You bring into gaming people who are not naturally gamers but led in from Farmville and that's what happens. This is already an issue for the industry, people will not stay long in most games and their attention cycles seem to be every diminishing. I know you will see this as great diversity and lots of choice, but there are deeper problems here.
There are more people playing, tons more. That should be your clue, so many that those now playing could not possibly be from the same pool we had fifteen or even five years ago. The MMO companies have chased a new audience, first solo gamers, then console, then social media users.
The numbers playing keep getting bigger. But people are playing games for shorter and shorter times. Be they solo, multiplayer or MMO games. You bring into gaming people who are not naturally gamers but led in from Farmville and that's what happens. This is already an issue for the industry, people will not stay long in most games and their attention cycles seem to be every diminishing. I know you will see this as great diversity and lots of choice, but there are deeper problems here.
Exactly. What are the problems? From a market perspective, you have a more diverse, larger audience (as you have pointed out). Isn't that a good thing?
The only reason I can see someone view this as a "problem" is one who feel that they have less attention from devs because the devs are now going after other players. Well, that is certainly not a "problem" for the devs or the market. There is no law that says devs have to cater to everyone .. and that itself is not necessarily a good thing (for example, in the extreme case, it is highly inefficient to make games for a single individual).
And again, even for those who are less catered too .. it is a free world. No one has to "put up with" or "suffer" anything in entertainment. This world is so abundant with entertainment that there is always something fun to do .. i guess at least for most people.
There are more people playing, tons more. That should be your clue, so many that those now playing could not possibly be from the same pool we had fifteen or even five years ago. The MMO companies have chased a new audience, first solo gamers, then console, then social media users.
The numbers playing keep getting bigger. But people are playing games for shorter and shorter times. Be they solo, multiplayer or MMO games. You bring into gaming people who are not naturally gamers but led in from Farmville and that's what happens. This is already an issue for the industry, people will not stay long in most games and their attention cycles seem to be every diminishing. I know you will see this as great diversity and lots of choice, but there are deeper problems here.
Exactly. What are the problems? From a market perspective, you have a more diverse, larger audience (as you have pointed out). Isn't that a good thing?
The only reason I can see someone view this as a "problem" is one who feel that they have less attention from devs because the devs are now going after other players. Well, that is certainly not a "problem" for the devs or the market. There is no law that says devs have to cater to everyone .. and that itself is not necessarily a good thing (for example, in the extreme case, it is highly inefficient to make games for a single individual).
And again, even for those who are less catered too .. it is a free world. No one has to "put up with" or "suffer" anything in entertainment. This world is so abundant with entertainment that there is always something fun to do .. i guess at least for most people.
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
As I have said before the future of gaming is going backward. We started off with games small in size and content and have been headed back that way for years now. There are outriders like ESO/GW2 and the franchise solo player games. But they illustrate what other games lack, they are not the norm.
Finally, new audiences have run out, there is no where else to get players from. A policy of cut and burn on your old players only works so far. Now social media has been tapped, you are stuck with your player base. Long term that may be our salvation, as people realise that a diet of candy crush and dumbed down MMOs leave a shallow taste in the mouth. But that may take another decade or more, if it ever proves the case.
Originally posted by Vorthanion I blame it on the F2P era, where games are designed first to be money traps with some if any fun tacked on and MMORPGs being turned into shallow arcade games.
While I wouldn't lay all the blame at F2P's feet, its 'contributions' to the genre are certainly a mixed bag.
Agree but its cash shops not F2P, you can start a game as P2P or B2P it is what happens once a cash shop is introduced that breaks gameplay ethos.
That's a pretty bizarre statement. Unless the F2P game is making money off ads or other sponsor revenue, 'cash shop' and F2P is one in the same.
Cash shops are the issue, F2P is a subset of that issue. We often think of it the other way round because FTP brought cash shops to the MMO genre. The pervasiveness of cash shops has now gone far beyond F2P, but Cash shops are more essential part of the F2P equation than other financial models. Certainly agree there.
Are you saying you prefer in-game advertising? I am interested in what you suggest as an alternate revenue model.
I would not mind in game advertising, it does not break gaming ethos. You open up your bank and there are adds, would not break my immersion. But if the history of MMOs shows you anything it shows that they want money every which way. So adverts would never replace cash shops, and just be annoying because the players have to put up with both.
I would not be surprised if that's what they want to try out next, if not that something else, as I have said so many times before the changes will not end at game breaking cash shops.
Did you just refer to online banking as an example of an immersive experience?
Unless you're Case from Neuromancer, I don't think that's what it means.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
After all my years in MMORPGs I have to agree with the OP. Sure there are some decent other games out there but not true MMORPGs by many of the old timers still out there. A game isn't a real MMO to us without required player interaction and a game isn't an RPG without a developing storyline including some sort for your character... and this means depth. So many games now are solo fests with the tiny bit of multi-player stuff mixed in. Often now you can get near the best in game being a soloist in many of today's games. No more need for a guild really or regular friends which means community is generally dead. Very rarely will you ever actually meet and interact with someone until max level as well unless its pvp and your killing them. Then add in the f2p bits which just cater to cash shops and flare rather then adding real content, story, and time consuming expansions. Many expansions in today's games you can hit the new max level in a couple days if not less then a day... and hit max level in days from scratch.
For many of the old school gamers such as myself and the more hardcore mmorpg'er this leaves us dead in the water. New games may be pretty in a few ways and offer a bit of fun for a short bit but very quickly dead.
Now newer gamers keep mentioning on how its a good business model for these games to shove out these themeparks that fit everyone else (except of course the old school and real hardcore team players). However its not a good business model. Sure they make money for a bit but they destroy their rep and the game doesn't last that long where a better design and it could have a smaller base but more stable players who do sub and will stay for years. A mmorpg doesn't need to cater to all the other groups and many of those other groups aren't so much of spenders as well. After all if it was such a good idea why not fit every genre into a single game.... have a bit of sports mixed in, add in some racing and flying sim, can't forget the farmville clone, and of course the fps part. It just doesn't mesh well as it just bloats down what the game should be to give a bit of everything.
So how about a time consuming game that takes hard work, time, and actually requires teamwork with a level of skill again. Old games required all of this and that is what made them great while yes the casuals whiled they still played but the real core players were happy having a great game that was made for enjoyment rather then a quick buck.
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
The analogy is not appropriate because MMO is only a part (or even a small part) of gaming. In fact, the analogy should be made on drama film. It is not a mystery that all the money in hollywood is going to big ten pole super hero films, and the drama or even comedy genre are getting smaller.
How can that be good? It depends on whether you like super hero films. If the money is going one way ... it must mean that a lot of people are liking it.
Similarly, if MMOs is being downsized .. it can only mean that people want other types of games (MOBAs, instanced, online FPS .. or even single player games). So what is the problem if the gaming market is adjusting? It may be bad news for those who only like MMOs .. but certainly they can't be that big of a group, or else the market will adjust towards them.
So how about a time consuming game that takes hard work, time, and actually requires teamwork with a level of skill again. Old games required all of this and that is what made them great while yes the casuals whiled they still played but the real core players were happy having a great game that was made for enjoyment rather then a quick buck.
Too much work. If i have time for teamwork and skills, it would be spent on real world work, not games.
And old games are not "great". It is just that they are catered to a different audience. You may like them more, but I (and other) like them less.
No game is making a quick buck without being fun to someone because no one can be forced to play a game.
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
The analogy is not appropriate because MMO is only a part (or even a small part) of gaming. In fact, the analogy should be made on drama film. It is not a mystery that all the money in hollywood is going to big ten pole super hero films, and the drama or even comedy genre are getting smaller.
How can that be good? It depends on whether you like super hero films. If the money is going one way ... it must mean that a lot of people are liking it.
Similarly, if MMOs is being downsized .. it can only mean that people want other types of games (MOBAs, instanced, online FPS .. or even single player games). So what is the problem if the gaming market is adjusting? It may be bad news for those who only like MMOs .. but certainly they can't be that big of a group, or else the market will adjust towards them.
I see this happening right across gaming, but it is most clearly seen in MMOs. Outside of MMOs there is the extremely obvious reuse of resources in franchises (yes I know its always happened, its the scale and in your face nature), the DLC that's released the day the game launches, switching off online services 6 months to a year down the line, the bugs which mean you can't play properly for the first week or two, the playability that bores you after less than a couple of weeks play, that they don't even expect you to bother to get to end game so have no end game to speak off, tiny world becoming a byword, need I go on?
They saw what new players would put up with, the likes of Farmville and Candy Crush and we are heading in the direction. You seem to think it stops here. We past the point where old school MMO players were getting pissed off over six or seven years ago, now solo gamers are asking where are the big releases. Where are the games they bought a new generation of consoles for?
Problem is guys, you don't need a PC or console to play dumbed down mini games and that's where we are heading.
I will suggest go playing Sa-Matra Wasteland (Arma 3 multiplayer game).
They have their own launcher (free). Great fun. A huge map to play on, with vehicles spawning in every town, missions spawning with dangerous ai and interesting loot (weapons, base parts, ground vehicles, helicopters).
Server restarts every say 6 or 12 hours (depends on server), and a server usually have 60-100 player slots. Base building is carried over as long as base parts are "locked", and stay for 100 hours (server wipe every 100hours).
Like an rpg game, you have an inventory, with clothing and equipment, and lots of weapons and ammo to play with.
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
The analogy is not appropriate because MMO is only a part (or even a small part) of gaming. In fact, the analogy should be made on drama film. It is not a mystery that all the money in hollywood is going to big ten pole super hero films, and the drama or even comedy genre are getting smaller.
How can that be good? It depends on whether you like super hero films. If the money is going one way ... it must mean that a lot of people are liking it.
Similarly, if MMOs is being downsized .. it can only mean that people want other types of games (MOBAs, instanced, online FPS .. or even single player games). So what is the problem if the gaming market is adjusting? It may be bad news for those who only like MMOs .. but certainly they can't be that big of a group, or else the market will adjust towards them.
I see this happening right across gaming, but it is most clearly seen in MMOs. Outside of MMOs there is the extremely obvious reuse of resources in franchises (yes I know its always happened, its the scale and in your face nature), the DLC that's released the day the game launches, switching off online services 6 months to a year down the line, the bugs which mean you can't play properly for the first week or two, the playability that bores you after less than a couple of weeks play, that they don't even expect you to bother to get to end game so have no end game to speak off, tiny world becoming a byword, need I go on?
They saw what new players would put up with, the likes of Farmville and Candy Crush and we are heading in the direction. You seem to think it stops here. We past the point where old school MMO players were getting pissed off over six or seven years ago, now solo gamers are asking where are the big releases. Where are the games they bought a new generation of consoles for?
Problem is guys, you don't need a PC or console to play dumbed down mini games and that's where we are heading.
What are you talking about?
There is a new CoD game being made. A new Hitman Game. A new Deus Ex game. A new Tomb Raider game. Even a new Rainbox Six game. Yes, there are tons of tablet games too .. but I don't see SP PC games dying down. In fact, given steam & indies, there are MORE development.
Originally posted by Scot Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Scot
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
The analogy is not appropriate because MMO is only a part (or even a small part) of gaming. In fact, the analogy should be made on drama film. It is not a mystery that all the money in hollywood is going to big ten pole super hero films, and the drama or even comedy genre are getting smaller.
How can that be good? It depends on whether you like super hero films. If the money is going one way ... it must mean that a lot of people are liking it.
Similarly, if MMOs is being downsized .. it can only mean that people want other types of games (MOBAs, instanced, online FPS .. or even single player games). So what is the problem if the gaming market is adjusting? It may be bad news for those who only like MMOs .. but certainly they can't be that big of a group, or else the market will adjust towards them.
I see this happening right across gaming, but it is most clearly seen in MMOs. Outside of MMOs there is the extremely obvious reuse of resources in franchises (yes I know its always happened, its the scale and in your face nature), the DLC that's released the day the game launches, switching off online services 6 months to a year down the line, the bugs which mean you can't play properly for the first week or two, the playability that bores you after less than a couple of weeks play, that they don't even expect you to bother to get to end game so have no end game to speak off, tiny world becoming a byword, need I go on?
They saw what new players would put up with, the likes of Farmville and Candy Crush and we are heading in the direction. You seem to think it stops here. We past the point where old school MMO players were getting pissed off over six or seven years ago, now solo gamers are asking where are the big releases. Where are the games they bought a new generation of consoles for?
Problem is guys, you don't need a PC or console to play dumbed down mini games and that's where we are heading.
What are you talking about?
There is a new CoD game being made. A new Hitman Game. A new Deus Ex game. A new Tomb Raider game. Even a new Rainbox Six game. Yes, there are tons of tablet games too .. but I don't see SP PC games dying down. In fact, given steam & indies, there are MORE development.
May be MMO is dying, but certainly not PC gaming.
IDK about that Nari. Although it doesn't prove it one way or another, it's a telling sign when back in the 90's and early 2000's you could walk into a Babbage's or Gamestop and browse an entire wall of PC games to choose from.
Now you are lucky to get a small shelf of them in the center of the store or stashed away somewhere in as dark corner. Can mainly get them online, but it appears the popularity of PC gaming had dwindled somewhat and console gaming reigns supreme.
Another reason I personally believe MMORPG'S have gone the route they have. Get a piece of that crowds cash potential.
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
The analogy is not appropriate because MMO is only a part (or even a small part) of gaming. In fact, the analogy should be made on drama film. It is not a mystery that all the money in hollywood is going to big ten pole super hero films, and the drama or even comedy genre are getting smaller.
How can that be good? It depends on whether you like super hero films. If the money is going one way ... it must mean that a lot of people are liking it.
Similarly, if MMOs is being downsized .. it can only mean that people want other types of games (MOBAs, instanced, online FPS .. or even single player games). So what is the problem if the gaming market is adjusting? It may be bad news for those who only like MMOs .. but certainly they can't be that big of a group, or else the market will adjust towards them.
I see this happening right across gaming, but it is most clearly seen in MMOs. Outside of MMOs there is the extremely obvious reuse of resources in franchises (yes I know its always happened, its the scale and in your face nature), the DLC that's released the day the game launches, switching off online services 6 months to a year down the line, the bugs which mean you can't play properly for the first week or two, the playability that bores you after less than a couple of weeks play, that they don't even expect you to bother to get to end game so have no end game to speak off, tiny world becoming a byword, need I go on?
They saw what new players would put up with, the likes of Farmville and Candy Crush and we are heading in the direction. You seem to think it stops here. We past the point where old school MMO players were getting pissed off over six or seven years ago, now solo gamers are asking where are the big releases. Where are the games they bought a new generation of consoles for?
Problem is guys, you don't need a PC or console to play dumbed down mini games and that's where we are heading.
What are you talking about?
There is a new CoD game being made. A new Hitman Game. A new Deus Ex game. A new Tomb Raider game. Even a new Rainbox Six game. Yes, there are tons of tablet games too .. but I don't see SP PC games dying down. In fact, given steam & indies, there are MORE development.
May be MMO is dying, but certainly not PC gaming.
IDK about that Nari. Although it doesn't prove it one way or another, it's a telling sign when back in the 90's and early 2000's you could walk into a Babbage's or Gamestop and browse an entire wall of PC games to choose from. Now you are lucky to get a small shelf of them in the center of the store or stashed away somewhere in as dark corner. Can mainly get them online, but it appears the popularity of PC gaming had dwindled somewhat and console gaming reigns supreme. Another reason I personally believe MMORPG'S have gone the route they have. Get a piece of that crowds cash potential.
You've got the facts backwards. PC is on the rise and consoles are likely on the decline.
Right now, your wall at Babbage's is just Steam/Origin/whatever which not only has an incredible amount of single player games, but has an incredible amount of single player games releasing all the time. On top of offering the big titles from AAA developers, they also offer many indie games from smaller developers, something that wasn't as common in the 90's.
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
The analogy is not appropriate because MMO is only a part (or even a small part) of gaming. In fact, the analogy should be made on drama film. It is not a mystery that all the money in hollywood is going to big ten pole super hero films, and the drama or even comedy genre are getting smaller.
How can that be good? It depends on whether you like super hero films. If the money is going one way ... it must mean that a lot of people are liking it.
Similarly, if MMOs is being downsized .. it can only mean that people want other types of games (MOBAs, instanced, online FPS .. or even single player games). So what is the problem if the gaming market is adjusting? It may be bad news for those who only like MMOs .. but certainly they can't be that big of a group, or else the market will adjust towards them.
I see this happening right across gaming, but it is most clearly seen in MMOs. Outside of MMOs there is the extremely obvious reuse of resources in franchises (yes I know its always happened, its the scale and in your face nature), the DLC that's released the day the game launches, switching off online services 6 months to a year down the line, the bugs which mean you can't play properly for the first week or two, the playability that bores you after less than a couple of weeks play, that they don't even expect you to bother to get to end game so have no end game to speak off, tiny world becoming a byword, need I go on?
They saw what new players would put up with, the likes of Farmville and Candy Crush and we are heading in the direction. You seem to think it stops here. We past the point where old school MMO players were getting pissed off over six or seven years ago, now solo gamers are asking where are the big releases. Where are the games they bought a new generation of consoles for?
Problem is guys, you don't need a PC or console to play dumbed down mini games and that's where we are heading.
What are you talking about?
There is a new CoD game being made. A new Hitman Game. A new Deus Ex game. A new Tomb Raider game. Even a new Rainbox Six game. Yes, there are tons of tablet games too .. but I don't see SP PC games dying down. In fact, given steam & indies, there are MORE development.
May be MMO is dying, but certainly not PC gaming.
IDK about that Nari. Although it doesn't prove it one way or another, it's a telling sign when back in the 90's and early 2000's you could walk into a Babbage's or Gamestop and browse an entire wall of PC games to choose from. Now you are lucky to get a small shelf of them in the center of the store or stashed away somewhere in as dark corner. Can mainly get them online, but it appears the popularity of PC gaming had dwindled somewhat and console gaming reigns supreme. Another reason I personally believe MMORPG'S have gone the route they have. Get a piece of that crowds cash potential.
In the 90s piracy was rampant. Buying a PC game was pointless in most cases. You could generally copy the game. Sometimes without needing a CD key or special copy software to bypass protection.
Most people who played MMOs even in those days were getting broadband connections. When I played UO and started EQ I used dial up and then switched to cable modem as soon as it was available. At that point downloading games became a real possibility.
Most companies are trying to push streaming of content as it makes them more money. Even consoles want to force you to rent software per year. Soon that may be the only choice available to people weather they like or not. Movies and music have already gone this route. Microsoft is trying to push Office and Windows in this direction.
Retail stores will eventually disappear. It's sad for the people who don't have broadband, but the companies don't care. They just care about the bottom line and having people pay a subscription for their software will make them more money and cause them less issues having to make things compatible with large amounts of different hardware than making software available to people who don't have internet.
I guess people who want to do things offline will have to switch to something like Linux one day.
Personally I dislike streaming things. I'd rather have a copy of software on my hard disk.
IDK about that Nari. Although it doesn't prove it one way or another, it's a telling sign when back in the 90's and early 2000's you could walk into a Babbage's or Gamestop and browse an entire wall of PC games to choose from. Now you are lucky to get a small shelf of them in the center of the store or stashed away somewhere in as dark corner. Can mainly get them online, but it appears the popularity of PC gaming had dwindled somewhat and console gaming reigns supreme. Another reason I personally believe MMORPG'S have gone the route they have. Get a piece of that crowds cash potential.
Because retail is no longer the center of gaming? Even console you can get online.
Have you go to steam and see how MANY PC games are available? Do you see a slow down in new releases? Do you think there will be so many new releases on steam every day if the market is going down the drain?
You are confused between the change in mode of distribution, then the change in business itself.
Don't tell me you think there is less news in the world just because newspapers are dying.
IDK about that Nari. Although it doesn't prove it one way or another, it's a telling sign when back in the 90's and early 2000's you could walk into a Babbage's or Gamestop and browse an entire wall of PC games to choose from. Now you are lucky to get a small shelf of them in the center of the store or stashed away somewhere in as dark corner. Can mainly get them online, but it appears the popularity of PC gaming had dwindled somewhat and console gaming reigns supreme. Another reason I personally believe MMORPG'S have gone the route they have. Get a piece of that crowds cash potential.
Because retail is no longer the center of gaming? Even console you can get online.
Have you go to steam and see how MANY PC games are available? Do you see a slow down in new releases? Do you think there will be so many new releases on steam every day if the market is going down the drain?
You are confused between the change in mode of distribution, then the change in business itself.
Don't tell me you think there is less news in the world just because newspapers are dying.
Sigh...I am fully aware of Steam and use it. I should of mentioned that.
I personally like having hard copies of games is all, and it's difficult to do so anymore unless you just buy it online and wait for shipping. I enjoyed going to the game store and browsing the selection. It is almost extinct now to do so.
Man I'm on the same boat. I keep going back to old games I've played before but nothing keeps my interest. That's when I decided to go where it all started for me...MUD! That's right, having a blast playing a MUD called Gemstone IV. Well actually I started playing NWN on AOL haha, and then I got into Gemstone. Anyway, I'll be there until the next big thing...crossing my fingers for DAOC Unchained!
IDK about that Nari. Although it doesn't prove it one way or another, it's a telling sign when back in the 90's and early 2000's you could walk into a Babbage's or Gamestop and browse an entire wall of PC games to choose from. Now you are lucky to get a small shelf of them in the center of the store or stashed away somewhere in as dark corner. Can mainly get them online, but it appears the popularity of PC gaming had dwindled somewhat and console gaming reigns supreme. Another reason I personally believe MMORPG'S have gone the route they have. Get a piece of that crowds cash potential.
Because retail is no longer the center of gaming? Even console you can get online.
Have you go to steam and see how MANY PC games are available? Do you see a slow down in new releases? Do you think there will be so many new releases on steam every day if the market is going down the drain?
You are confused between the change in mode of distribution, then the change in business itself.
Don't tell me you think there is less news in the world just because newspapers are dying.
Sigh...I am fully aware of Steam and use it. I should of mentioned that. I personally like having hard copies of games is all, and it's difficult to do so anymore unless you just buy it online and wait for shipping. I enjoyed going to the game store and browsing the selection. It is almost extinct now to do so.
The never ending repercussions of the internet; it has given us much but has taken so much away.
I also miss going to the game store and browsing through all of the titles. And I do agree, it is telling that the PC game section is minute or in some cases where I live, non existent. Sooo many console games for various systems that mostly have online capabilities yet there they are, ceiling to floor wall to wall all throughout the store.
Steam is cool and all and I've got quite the library, but it's just not the same. It's a cheap experience to what we had before. But hey, it's convenient, right? The way I see it: too much convenience is a recipe for a lesser life.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Steam is cool and all and I've got quite the library, but it's just not the same. It's a cheap experience to what we had before. But hey, it's convenient, right? The way I see it: too much convenience is a recipe for a lesser life.
That, i think is just what you are getting used to.
Personally I prefer steam 1000x over buying package software, even if you are not concerned about digital download is 1000x better for the environment.
1) You are getting the SAME game, with updated patches all at the same place.
2) You don't have to GO to the store. With broadband (i get like 50Mbit/s), it is FASTER to get a game from steam than to go out, come back and install.
3) You will NEVER lose your copy of whatever
4) There is no disk to be worn out. I don't have to have a thousand CDs, DVDs, and package clustering up my home.
5) If you change your computer, steam will do everything for you ... no more installing a thousand games from disks again and again.
... and what experience? Browsing titles in gamestop? It is much easier to browse a lot more titles, with MORE information, on steam than any game stop.
The ONLY experience that is different is the handling of the disk .. which to be honest, is a chore. I am glad i will never have to do it again.
Steam is cool and all and I've got quite the library, but it's just not the same. It's a cheap experience to what we had before. But hey, it's convenient, right? The way I see it: too much convenience is a recipe for a lesser life.
That, i think is just what you are getting used to.
Personally I prefer steam 1000x over buying package software, even if you are not concerned about digital download is 1000x better for the environment.
1) You are getting the SAME game, with updated patches all at the same place.
2) You don't have to GO to the store. With broadband (i get like 50Mbit/s), it is FASTER to get a game from steam than to go out, come back and install.
3) You will NEVER lose your copy of whatever
4) There is no disk to be worn out. I don't have to have a thousand CDs, DVDs, and package clustering up my home.
5) If you change your computer, steam will do everything for you ... no more installing a thousand games from disks again and again.
... and what experience? Browsing titles in gamestop? It is much easier to browse a lot more titles, with MORE information, on steam than any game stop.
The ONLY experience that is different is the handling of the disk .. which to be honest, is a chore. I am glad i will never have to do it again.
+1 the Gamestop experience is actually getting worse with time. So many games and they are organized by NAME. So even they are assuming you're only coming there to purchase a specific title. There's zero discovery. Plus! there is such limited information (what 2 images on the back of the box?) that I end up using my phone to to research in the store anyway.
Steam is cool and all and I've got quite the library, but it's just not the same. It's a cheap experience to what we had before. But hey, it's convenient, right? The way I see it: too much convenience is a recipe for a lesser life.
That, i think is just what you are getting used to.
Personally I prefer steam 1000x over buying package software, even if you are not concerned about digital download is 1000x better for the environment.
1) You are getting the SAME game, with updated patches all at the same place.
2) You don't have to GO to the store. With broadband (i get like 50Mbit/s), it is FASTER to get a game from steam than to go out, come back and install.
3) You will NEVER lose your copy of whatever
4) There is no disk to be worn out. I don't have to have a thousand CDs, DVDs, and package clustering up my home.
5) If you change your computer, steam will do everything for you ... no more installing a thousand games from disks again and again.
... and what experience? Browsing titles in gamestop? It is much easier to browse a lot more titles, with MORE information, on steam than any game stop.
The ONLY experience that is different is the handling of the disk .. which to be honest, is a chore. I am glad i will never have to do it again.
+1 the Gamestop experience is actually getting worse with time. So many games and they are organized by NAME. So even they are assuming you're only coming there to purchase a specific title. There's zero discovery. Plus! there is such limited information (what 2 images on the back of the box?) that I end up using my phone to to research in the store anyway.
absolutely. I don't go to game retailer anymore precisely because of that. At home, i can see screenshots, videos, reviews, forum discussion, and I can buy right on the spot, and get the game in an hour (usually less, i have fast broadband).
There is a new CoD game being made. A new Hitman Game. A new Deus Ex game. A new Tomb Raider game. Even a new Rainbox Six game. Yes, there are tons of tablet games too .. but I don't see SP PC games dying down. In fact, given steam & indies, there are MORE development.
May be MMO is dying, but certainly not PC gaming.
I am not saying gaming is dying on any format. The nature of the games has changed across the board. I did say there were exceptions in the franchises and you have named some. ((Thanks for that but that does not change what has happened ))
This is a drive for cheap and throw away. As for consoles where are the next gen games that cannot be played on the old gen? Not even one out yet? I am not a console player, but is it that bad, not even one out yet? In PC's it shows more in bad ports, the need to have ports in the first place and reusing resources ad infinitum. In one case by putting a white cloth over the old scenery. I kid you not a white cloth!
There is a new CoD game being made. A new Hitman Game. A new Deus Ex game. A new Tomb Raider game. Even a new Rainbox Six game. Yes, there are tons of tablet games too .. but I don't see SP PC games dying down. In fact, given steam & indies, there are MORE development.
May be MMO is dying, but certainly not PC gaming.
I am not saying gaming is dying on any format. The nature of the games has changed across the board. I did say there were exceptions in the franchises and you have named some. ((Thanks for that but that does not change what has happened ))
This is a drive for cheap and throw away. As for consoles where are the next gen games that cannot be played on the old gen? Not even one out yet? I am not a console player, but is it that bad, not even one out yet? In PC's it shows more in bad ports, the need to have ports in the first place and reusing resources ad infinitum. In one case by putting a white cloth over the old scenery. I kid you not a white cloth!
again .. you are discounting all the major franchises that are still in AAA development. None of those games I have listed are anything but "cheap & throw away".
Sure .. they ADD to the franchise by making cheaper, different versions on iOS (for example, the fabulous Hitman board game, or the short Deus Ex one) but those are in addition to, not replacing the main games.
In fact, the number of big franchised games are not going down, but instead .. there is the new Watch Dogs, Division, a bunch of zombie games (like Dying Light), or RPGs like Shadow or Mordor. Witcher 3 was just released. Don't tell me any of those games are "cheap" to make.
Comments
But no one forces anyone to stay. In fact, you said it yourself ... "i know many who gave up on MMOs" ..hence no one puts up with anything. If they stay, it is because after they balance everything, they want to.
And from the total market perspective, there are MORE people playing F2P games with cash shops, not fewer. So I don't think most people hate cash shops that much .. at least not to the point of giving up gaming.
Personally i find them easy to ignore.
There are more people playing, tons more. That should be your clue, so many that those now playing could not possibly be from the same pool we had fifteen or even five years ago. The MMO companies have chased a new audience, first solo gamers, then console, then social media users.
The numbers playing keep getting bigger. But people are playing games for shorter and shorter times. Be they solo, multiplayer or MMO games. You bring into gaming people who are not naturally gamers but led in from Farmville and that's what happens. This is already an issue for the industry, people will not stay long in most games and their attention cycles seem to be every diminishing. I know you will see this as great diversity and lots of choice, but there are deeper problems here.
Exactly. What are the problems? From a market perspective, you have a more diverse, larger audience (as you have pointed out). Isn't that a good thing?
The only reason I can see someone view this as a "problem" is one who feel that they have less attention from devs because the devs are now going after other players. Well, that is certainly not a "problem" for the devs or the market. There is no law that says devs have to cater to everyone .. and that itself is not necessarily a good thing (for example, in the extreme case, it is highly inefficient to make games for a single individual).
And again, even for those who are less catered too .. it is a free world. No one has to "put up with" or "suffer" anything in entertainment. This world is so abundant with entertainment that there is always something fun to do .. i guess at least for most people.
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
As I have said before the future of gaming is going backward. We started off with games small in size and content and have been headed back that way for years now. There are outriders like ESO/GW2 and the franchise solo player games. But they illustrate what other games lack, they are not the norm.
Finally, new audiences have run out, there is no where else to get players from. A policy of cut and burn on your old players only works so far. Now social media has been tapped, you are stuck with your player base. Long term that may be our salvation, as people realise that a diet of candy crush and dumbed down MMOs leave a shallow taste in the mouth. But that may take another decade or more, if it ever proves the case.
Did you just refer to online banking as an example of an immersive experience?
Unless you're Case from Neuromancer, I don't think that's what it means.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
After all my years in MMORPGs I have to agree with the OP. Sure there are some decent other games out there but not true MMORPGs by many of the old timers still out there. A game isn't a real MMO to us without required player interaction and a game isn't an RPG without a developing storyline including some sort for your character... and this means depth. So many games now are solo fests with the tiny bit of multi-player stuff mixed in. Often now you can get near the best in game being a soloist in many of today's games. No more need for a guild really or regular friends which means community is generally dead. Very rarely will you ever actually meet and interact with someone until max level as well unless its pvp and your killing them. Then add in the f2p bits which just cater to cash shops and flare rather then adding real content, story, and time consuming expansions. Many expansions in today's games you can hit the new max level in a couple days if not less then a day... and hit max level in days from scratch.
For many of the old school gamers such as myself and the more hardcore mmorpg'er this leaves us dead in the water. New games may be pretty in a few ways and offer a bit of fun for a short bit but very quickly dead.
Now newer gamers keep mentioning on how its a good business model for these games to shove out these themeparks that fit everyone else (except of course the old school and real hardcore team players). However its not a good business model. Sure they make money for a bit but they destroy their rep and the game doesn't last that long where a better design and it could have a smaller base but more stable players who do sub and will stay for years. A mmorpg doesn't need to cater to all the other groups and many of those other groups aren't so much of spenders as well. After all if it was such a good idea why not fit every genre into a single game.... have a bit of sports mixed in, add in some racing and flying sim, can't forget the farmville clone, and of course the fps part. It just doesn't mesh well as it just bloats down what the game should be to give a bit of everything.
So how about a time consuming game that takes hard work, time, and actually requires teamwork with a level of skill again. Old games required all of this and that is what made them great while yes the casuals whiled they still played but the real core players were happy having a great game that was made for enjoyment rather then a quick buck.
The analogy is not appropriate because MMO is only a part (or even a small part) of gaming. In fact, the analogy should be made on drama film. It is not a mystery that all the money in hollywood is going to big ten pole super hero films, and the drama or even comedy genre are getting smaller.
How can that be good? It depends on whether you like super hero films. If the money is going one way ... it must mean that a lot of people are liking it.
Similarly, if MMOs is being downsized .. it can only mean that people want other types of games (MOBAs, instanced, online FPS .. or even single player games). So what is the problem if the gaming market is adjusting? It may be bad news for those who only like MMOs .. but certainly they can't be that big of a group, or else the market will adjust towards them.
Too much work. If i have time for teamwork and skills, it would be spent on real world work, not games.
And old games are not "great". It is just that they are catered to a different audience. You may like them more, but I (and other) like them less.
No game is making a quick buck without being fun to someone because no one can be forced to play a game.
I see this happening right across gaming, but it is most clearly seen in MMOs. Outside of MMOs there is the extremely obvious reuse of resources in franchises (yes I know its always happened, its the scale and in your face nature), the DLC that's released the day the game launches, switching off online services 6 months to a year down the line, the bugs which mean you can't play properly for the first week or two, the playability that bores you after less than a couple of weeks play, that they don't even expect you to bother to get to end game so have no end game to speak off, tiny world becoming a byword, need I go on?
They saw what new players would put up with, the likes of Farmville and Candy Crush and we are heading in the direction. You seem to think it stops here. We past the point where old school MMO players were getting pissed off over six or seven years ago, now solo gamers are asking where are the big releases. Where are the games they bought a new generation of consoles for?
Problem is guys, you don't need a PC or console to play dumbed down mini games and that's where we are heading.
I will suggest go playing Sa-Matra Wasteland (Arma 3 multiplayer game).
They have their own launcher (free). Great fun. A huge map to play on, with vehicles spawning in every town, missions spawning with dangerous ai and interesting loot (weapons, base parts, ground vehicles, helicopters).
Server restarts every say 6 or 12 hours (depends on server), and a server usually have 60-100 player slots. Base building is carried over as long as base parts are "locked", and stay for 100 hours (server wipe every 100hours).
Like an rpg game, you have an inventory, with clothing and equipment, and lots of weapons and ammo to play with.
Latest launcher update from here:
https://a3cdn.com/
you are missing out.. a lot. give it a try, seriously.
What are you talking about?
There is a new CoD game being made. A new Hitman Game. A new Deus Ex game. A new Tomb Raider game. Even a new Rainbox Six game. Yes, there are tons of tablet games too .. but I don't see SP PC games dying down. In fact, given steam & indies, there are MORE development.
May be MMO is dying, but certainly not PC gaming.
If each year films were being made on smaller budgets with lower production values or books where getting smaller because people could not be bothered to read until the end; would you think that boded well? MMOs are a genre that are downsizing and have put up a permanent "Everything Must Go" sign, how can that be good?
The analogy is not appropriate because MMO is only a part (or even a small part) of gaming. In fact, the analogy should be made on drama film. It is not a mystery that all the money in hollywood is going to big ten pole super hero films, and the drama or even comedy genre are getting smaller.
How can that be good? It depends on whether you like super hero films. If the money is going one way ... it must mean that a lot of people are liking it.
Similarly, if MMOs is being downsized .. it can only mean that people want other types of games (MOBAs, instanced, online FPS .. or even single player games). So what is the problem if the gaming market is adjusting? It may be bad news for those who only like MMOs .. but certainly they can't be that big of a group, or else the market will adjust towards them.
I see this happening right across gaming, but it is most clearly seen in MMOs. Outside of MMOs there is the extremely obvious reuse of resources in franchises (yes I know its always happened, its the scale and in your face nature), the DLC that's released the day the game launches, switching off online services 6 months to a year down the line, the bugs which mean you can't play properly for the first week or two, the playability that bores you after less than a couple of weeks play, that they don't even expect you to bother to get to end game so have no end game to speak off, tiny world becoming a byword, need I go on?
They saw what new players would put up with, the likes of Farmville and Candy Crush and we are heading in the direction. You seem to think it stops here. We past the point where old school MMO players were getting pissed off over six or seven years ago, now solo gamers are asking where are the big releases. Where are the games they bought a new generation of consoles for?
Problem is guys, you don't need a PC or console to play dumbed down mini games and that's where we are heading.
What are you talking about?
There is a new CoD game being made. A new Hitman Game. A new Deus Ex game. A new Tomb Raider game. Even a new Rainbox Six game. Yes, there are tons of tablet games too .. but I don't see SP PC games dying down. In fact, given steam & indies, there are MORE development.
May be MMO is dying, but certainly not PC gaming.
IDK about that Nari. Although it doesn't prove it one way or another, it's a telling sign when back in the 90's and early 2000's you could walk into a Babbage's or Gamestop and browse an entire wall of PC games to choose from.Now you are lucky to get a small shelf of them in the center of the store or stashed away somewhere in as dark corner. Can mainly get them online, but it appears the popularity of PC gaming had dwindled somewhat and console gaming reigns supreme.
Another reason I personally believe MMORPG'S have gone the route they have. Get a piece of that crowds cash potential.
You've got the facts backwards. PC is on the rise and consoles are likely on the decline.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2014/04/28/as-global-pc-game-revenue-surpasses-consoles-how-long-should-console-makers-keep-fighting/
Right now, your wall at Babbage's is just Steam/Origin/whatever which not only has an incredible amount of single player games, but has an incredible amount of single player games releasing all the time. On top of offering the big titles from AAA developers, they also offer many indie games from smaller developers, something that wasn't as common in the 90's.
In the 90s piracy was rampant. Buying a PC game was pointless in most cases. You could generally copy the game. Sometimes without needing a CD key or special copy software to bypass protection.
Most people who played MMOs even in those days were getting broadband connections. When I played UO and started EQ I used dial up and then switched to cable modem as soon as it was available. At that point downloading games became a real possibility.
Most companies are trying to push streaming of content as it makes them more money. Even consoles want to force you to rent software per year. Soon that may be the only choice available to people weather they like or not. Movies and music have already gone this route. Microsoft is trying to push Office and Windows in this direction.
Retail stores will eventually disappear. It's sad for the people who don't have broadband, but the companies don't care. They just care about the bottom line and having people pay a subscription for their software will make them more money and cause them less issues having to make things compatible with large amounts of different hardware than making software available to people who don't have internet.
I guess people who want to do things offline will have to switch to something like Linux one day.
Personally I dislike streaming things. I'd rather have a copy of software on my hard disk.
Because retail is no longer the center of gaming? Even console you can get online.
Have you go to steam and see how MANY PC games are available? Do you see a slow down in new releases? Do you think there will be so many new releases on steam every day if the market is going down the drain?
You are confused between the change in mode of distribution, then the change in business itself.
Don't tell me you think there is less news in the world just because newspapers are dying.
IDK about that Nari. Although it doesn't prove it one way or another, it's a telling sign when back in the 90's and early 2000's you could walk into a Babbage's or Gamestop and browse an entire wall of PC games to choose from. Now you are lucky to get a small shelf of them in the center of the store or stashed away somewhere in as dark corner. Can mainly get them online, but it appears the popularity of PC gaming had dwindled somewhat and console gaming reigns supreme. Another reason I personally believe MMORPG'S have gone the route they have. Get a piece of that crowds cash potential.Because retail is no longer the center of gaming? Even console you can get online.
Have you go to steam and see how MANY PC games are available? Do you see a slow down in new releases? Do you think there will be so many new releases on steam every day if the market is going down the drain?
You are confused between the change in mode of distribution, then the change in business itself.
Don't tell me you think there is less news in the world just because newspapers are dying.
Sigh...I am fully aware of Steam and use it. I should of mentioned that.I personally like having hard copies of games is all, and it's difficult to do so anymore unless you just buy it online and wait for shipping. I enjoyed going to the game store and browsing the selection. It is almost extinct now to do so.
The never ending repercussions of the internet; it has given us much but has taken so much away.
I also miss going to the game store and browsing through all of the titles. And I do agree, it is telling that the PC game section is minute or in some cases where I live, non existent. Sooo many console games for various systems that mostly have online capabilities yet there they are, ceiling to floor wall to wall all throughout the store.
Steam is cool and all and I've got quite the library, but it's just not the same. It's a cheap experience to what we had before. But hey, it's convenient, right? The way I see it: too much convenience is a recipe for a lesser life.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
That, i think is just what you are getting used to.
Personally I prefer steam 1000x over buying package software, even if you are not concerned about digital download is 1000x better for the environment.
1) You are getting the SAME game, with updated patches all at the same place.
2) You don't have to GO to the store. With broadband (i get like 50Mbit/s), it is FASTER to get a game from steam than to go out, come back and install.
3) You will NEVER lose your copy of whatever
4) There is no disk to be worn out. I don't have to have a thousand CDs, DVDs, and package clustering up my home.
5) If you change your computer, steam will do everything for you ... no more installing a thousand games from disks again and again.
... and what experience? Browsing titles in gamestop? It is much easier to browse a lot more titles, with MORE information, on steam than any game stop.
The ONLY experience that is different is the handling of the disk .. which to be honest, is a chore. I am glad i will never have to do it again.
+1 the Gamestop experience is actually getting worse with time. So many games and they are organized by NAME. So even they are assuming you're only coming there to purchase a specific title. There's zero discovery. Plus! there is such limited information (what 2 images on the back of the box?) that I end up using my phone to to research in the store anyway.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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absolutely. I don't go to game retailer anymore precisely because of that. At home, i can see screenshots, videos, reviews, forum discussion, and I can buy right on the spot, and get the game in an hour (usually less, i have fast broadband).
Why bother with gamestop?
I am not saying gaming is dying on any format. The nature of the games has changed across the board. I did say there were exceptions in the franchises and you have named some. ((Thanks for that but that does not change what has happened
))
This is a drive for cheap and throw away. As for consoles where are the next gen games that cannot be played on the old gen? Not even one out yet? I am not a console player, but is it that bad, not even one out yet? In PC's it shows more in bad ports, the need to have ports in the first place and reusing resources ad infinitum. In one case by putting a white cloth over the old scenery. I kid you not a white cloth!
again .. you are discounting all the major franchises that are still in AAA development. None of those games I have listed are anything but "cheap & throw away".
Sure .. they ADD to the franchise by making cheaper, different versions on iOS (for example, the fabulous Hitman board game, or the short Deus Ex one) but those are in addition to, not replacing the main games.
In fact, the number of big franchised games are not going down, but instead .. there is the new Watch Dogs, Division, a bunch of zombie games (like Dying Light), or RPGs like Shadow or Mordor. Witcher 3 was just released. Don't tell me any of those games are "cheap" to make.