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CIG unilaterally refunds Derek Smart's Kickstarter pledge

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  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by Rollgunner

    *EDIT* Apparently, Derek Smart *asked* for a refund.

    Derek Smart's refund request approved

    Can't complain about getting what you asked for !

     

    P.S. Thanks to Laserit for correcting me. You da rockstar Chihuahua!

     

    You were right the first time.  Read the link.  It is a direct admission by CIG that they unilaterally refunded his contribution. 

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436635/page/7

    I do believe more clarification is needed. The only direct admission by CIG I read, was of Giving Mr Smart a refund.

      This is what I politely asked Mr Smart in the other thread shortly after his post.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436635/page/8

    " I'm kind of confused by your link... did you get refunded out of the blue without you requesting it?  or did you request a refund? "

     

    It is as yet unanswered, hopefully he clarifies.

     

    CIG admitted it in the link provided.  It is implied.  Please read carefully.  Also, if you read DSmarts statements in the same link, he speaks of having involuntarily received a refund.  

    I'm sorry but it means diddly concerning whether a refund was asked for by Mr Smart or not.

     

    One can only imagine the amount of correspondence between these parties and the amount of times the word refund was used in such correspondence.

    It's also interesting how Ben Lesnick names jcrg99 with Mr Smart on the RSI forums. It's also coincidence that  the forums here also have a poster by the same name.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/jcrg99

    If post history means anything it seems to me that mr jcrg99 has a long time obsession

     

    Are jcrg99 and Mr Smart one in the same?     That's for you to decide.

     

    Is there a shrink in the house?

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • TheOctagonTheOctagon Member UncommonPosts: 411

    Wow. Derek seriously must have hit a nerve over there.

    The truth obviously hurts and this is CIGs way of letting that be known...XD

    Petty CIGgy, very petty.

     

     

  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723

    "Think of it as the video game equivalent of a ‘we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone’ sign in a restaurant. "

    Congratulations for the Community Manager and PR/Marketing team that CIG has.

    I am always amazed by their high-level of competence and talent.

    Of course a restaurant can put that sign. The only problem is that while many restaurants do that as a kind of "damage control preventive" approach, in fact, if they really do that, its totally illegal and depending of the size of the business, they are done, if the customer complain. While a lot of backers are applauding the atittude, they simply did not figure out yet, that just ended to put a lot of their invested money on Star Citizen, in the pockets of Mr. Derek. Easy cake.

    They love to throw this TOS. Something that wouldn't endure in any court of law by the way. And they know that. It just show how they like to play the "Fanboy Hero" card and how they underestimate and disrespect customer as a whole, if they just persist to know information, considering that they failed to deliver in time, as well as changed the scope of the game unilaterally, without the individual approval of 100% of the backers. Breaking this way, as well as in many other occassions the marketing and advertising laws of United States.

    Hopefully for CIG, this all will be kept out of the radar of this attorney:

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/trouble-crowdfunding-next-big-tech-gadget-180951754/

    "The Federal Trade Commission makes and enforces rules to protect consumers from unfair or deceptive business practices, and its consumer protection principles apply to crowdfunding sites in the same way they apply to things like catalogs, direct mail and TV commercials, according to Helen Wong, an attorney with the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. Sellers can't make deceptive representations, and they have to fulfill promises they've made to consumers, for starters."

    The level of ego of CIG is going so high, that they are now banning people when they speak in their minds in their own personal blogs or personal websites, or any other not under the control of CIG moderators.

    By the notions that CIG spread, they are now regulating United States Law and the internet, as a whole. It's in the TOS, don't you  see? And if its not in our TOS, here, you have the word of Roberts. So, that's the ultimate proof about anything.

    Funny enough, CIG violated their own TOS when disclosing in a total ridiculous pure libel (again Mr. Lesnick play the "Fanboy Hero" card for his own sake - but not for the sake of CIG), the reason and the name of a backer in their website forums.

    At the same time that show cowardly, since, when they could bring him there and, if all what he says is wrong, proving wrong, but instead, play this card and is coward enough to do not give the chance of defense.

    This is all is getting more and more ridiculous. And I don't know about others, but for me, CIG sounds lost and desperate, going to defensive and paranoid (which they always were by the way). Anyway, we all know, except 3 or 4 guys here, what will be the end result of all this.

     

  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    Originally posted by laserit
    I'm sorry but it means diddly concerning whether a refund was asked for by Mr Smart or not.

     

    One can only imagine the amount of correspondence between these parties and the amount of times the word refund was used in such correspondence.

    It's also interesting how Ben Lesnick names jcrg99 with Mr Smart on the RSI forums. It's also coincidence that  the forums here also have a poster by the same name.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/jcrg99

    If post history means anything it seems to me that mr jcrg99 has a long time obsession

     

    Are jcrg99 and Mr Smart one in the same?     That's for you to decide.

     

    Is there a shrink in the house?

    Nobody asked prove for the accusatory claims of Ben Lesnick. I mean... all these fans have this standard approach of ask proves/evidences to back up some claim, for any people who criticize about something related to CIG or anything related to Star Citizen.

    Suddenly, nobody, not a single one asked for Ben Lesnick to prove his claims. I wonder if he would be able to prove his accusations about jcrg99 and what lead to his 1st ban from the CIG Forums, if it was really something fair and acceptable, or was not something just as arbitrary as with what they just did now with Derek, for reasons like "they do not want to people that are in their online store listening about things that are actually true and starting to think", rephrasing Ben Lesnick statements.

    It's like they had no reason to play the fanboy heroes, or to hide people who causes "problems" (have the true in their arguments?) even if lying was necessary, right? No reason:

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge

    I mean. The best way to prove some "hater" wrong (I used the word that they like to mention about people who make questions that they do not want to hear about because could offend the whales vision about they been gods) is to prove him wrong. When the gestapo tactics come, any half-brain person gets the answer that they needed, about in what side is the true.

    I am going to wait for Mr. Lesnick coming here, or Mr. Roberts, Sandi Gardiner, any of them, since he they were coward enough to keep themselves inside the walls of Cloud Imperium Games website and cowardly creating a defamation campaign against me, to make them appear better, mainly because they know that what I say is very dangerous for their "business" (quotes in purpose)....

    Come here and show me the actual evidence that I was fairly banned in the first time, or, it is just one more the empty speechs that fans swallow, sensationalize, spread misinformation and create an urban legend about what actually happened in the first place.

    I bet that the have no balls enough for this. They would have spend less time proving Derek wrong, or myself wrong, than making all that effort to defamate those who does not accept to be disrespected by those jokers of the game industry.

    And sorry if I used strong words here, but those people do not deserve any respect. They prove that many times and this situation is just one more example.

    They don't care. Compared with CIG, EA are angels in terms of customer focus. It's a cult.

    Next CR will play the Jim Jones card and those people will follow.

    Go there. Ask prove. Be coherent. If the "haters" must to give prove for anything that they say, why you people NEVER ask for any prove to CIG back up THEIR claims. 

    I bet that because fans around are smart enough to know that they can't, becuase they just lie. Period.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    I wonder if CIG will refund everyone else as well, when it becomes more apparent that what was promised with SC and what will be delivered are two different things.
  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904

    I don't understand why people have to complicate things.

    I going to be honest: I don't know who the fuck Derek Smart is. I don't really care.

    But from what i can see he proposes some very reasonable and thought out questions about SC if you have reservations about the state of development.

    Its a shame people attack the person in order to "devalue" the questions.

    image
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  • user547user547 Member UncommonPosts: 150

    I'll just repeat that it is unacceptable to make demands and attempt to dominate other people.  The witch hunt that certain people are trying to gin up against a video game is getting close to being a symptom of a personality disorder.

     

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by Rollgunner

     

    I'll maintain my opinion that silencing your critics is a bad idea.

    I totally agree with this.

     

    With that said, I also think Derek Smart was being a hypocrite by talking crap about SC while at the same time supporting the kickstarter.





  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723

    Ben Lesnick (the teacher, no experience in the game industry before, except by telling EA about the lore of Wing Commander in two project, Wing Commander Arena and one that never came out... and as a manager of a FANBOY community, not a customer community, who ended to be responsible and having strong influence in the CIG Design, Support, Communication - mainly and Community Manager and now rumors say, Production) - the king of the Roberts fanboys is the CM for a long time - how coincidence that its fanboy oriented, not customer oriented.

    Coincidently, he had the luck, that his wife was also hired to work for CIG. Isn't that great?

    Became the face of the shows and community. Ego much? Fan Celebrity Complex much?

    Anyway...

    Let's appplaud his last achievement:

    http://www.pcgamer.com/derek-smart-star-citizen/

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/news/star-citizen/derek-smart-questions-star-citizen-receives-unprompted-refund

    http://www.pcinvasion.com/cig-explain-derek-smarts-star-citizen-refund-smart-disputes-claims

     

  • TheOctagonTheOctagon Member UncommonPosts: 411
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    I wonder if CIG will refund everyone else as well, when it becomes more apparent that what was promised with SC and what will be delivered are two different things.

    That's an easy one!

    Just post an article calling for people to use common sense in relations to the state of SC and ask backers to ask questions about the state of the game and if it will really be released with everything promised.

    Make sure to do this on a 3rd party website that has no affiliation with SC at all.

    Instant refund.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Rollgunner

    I'll maintain my opinion that silencing your critics is a bad idea.

    How has he been silenced? He is known enough to spread his view all over the place, that's hardly silenced.

    If he's been banned from their pages/sites, that's completely understandable, he's actively trying to turn people against their product, that's beyond the point of criticism, that's pretty much an outright attack on their character, as well as actively trying to portray their product as a scam. Very few companies are going to allow that on their own property.

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Rommie10-284Rommie10-284 Member UncommonPosts: 265

    Yep, this is a "here's your money, get out of our shop!" buyoff and a way to ensure they don't owe him a thing, no matter how much more he rants. 

    One the one hand, delivering the refund and a boot in the butt is BAD BAD PR for criticism that was off-site.  On the other, it's Derek Smart - dunno if I can blame them for using the broom, and being quick about it.

    It does make you wonder how far they'd go if more off-site criticism rolls in...

    Avatars are people too

  • TheOctagonTheOctagon Member UncommonPosts: 411
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Rollgunner

    I'll maintain my opinion that silencing your critics is a bad idea.

    How has he been silenced? He is known enough to spread his view all over the place, that's hardly silenced.

    If he's been banned from their pages/sites, that's completely understandable, he's actively trying to turn people against their product, that's beyond the point of criticism, that's pretty much an outright attack on their character, as well as actively trying to portray their product as a scam. Very few companies are going to allow that on their own property.

     He didn't do it on their property. He did it on his own blog. A totally unaffiliated website with no connection to SC.

  • RoinRoin Member RarePosts: 3,444
    Originally posted by user547

    Derek Smart has a track record for tearing down other people's work and general anti-social behavior.  It's important to remember that and not accidentally give people like him a clean slate in your mind when you judge their actions.

    Publicly issuing demands and trying to control the behavior of other people is not acceptable.  And that's what he did.  This person has never been successful in the gaming business and yet somehow he is still a known name.  The only way people like that stay relevant is by appealing to the basest instinct of game fans and attacking other people's work.

    This kind of behavior is something everyone can do without, and to think that this reflects poorly on Chris Roberts rather than Derek Smart is to be willfully blind.

    Pretty much all that needs to be said in this thread.

    In War - Victory.
    In Peace - Vigilance.
    In Death - Sacrifice.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by TheOctagon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Rollgunner

    I'll maintain my opinion that silencing your critics is a bad idea.

    How has he been silenced? He is known enough to spread his view all over the place, that's hardly silenced.

    If he's been banned from their pages/sites, that's completely understandable, he's actively trying to turn people against their product, that's beyond the point of criticism, that's pretty much an outright attack on their character, as well as actively trying to portray their product as a scam. Very few companies are going to allow that on their own property.

     He didn't do it on their property. He did it on his own blog. A totally unaffiliated website with no connection to SC.

    I said it's understandable to take that avenue away, not that he did.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by Torval
    Originally posted by Nitth

    I don't understand why people have to complicate things.

    I going to be honest: I don't know who the fuck Derek Smart is. I don't really care.

    But from what i can see he proposes some very reasonable and thought out questions about SC if you have reservations about the state of development.

    Its a shame people attack the person in order to "devalue" the questions.

    Information is only as good as the source so you should care.

    Here is just one reason, among others, why this particular person raising these questions is interesting if not suspect: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=3000AD

    He doesn't really pass his own litmus test. He doesn't care about transparency, integrity, or the gamer/customer. He just likes to stir things up, but he doesn't practice what he preaches.

    What am I look for?

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Torval
    Originally posted by Nitth

    I don't understand why people have to complicate things.

    I going to be honest: I don't know who the fuck Derek Smart is. I don't really care.

    But from what i can see he proposes some very reasonable and thought out questions about SC if you have reservations about the state of development.

    Its a shame people attack the person in order to "devalue" the questions.

    Information is only as good as the source so you should care.

    Here is just one reason, among others, why this particular person raising these questions is interesting if not suspect: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=3000AD

    He doesn't really pass his own litmus test. He doesn't care about transparency, integrity, or the gamer/customer. He just likes to stir things up, but he doesn't practice what he preaches.

    What am I look for?

    His track record, those are his games. All launched in unfavorable states.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TheOctagonTheOctagon Member UncommonPosts: 411
    Originally posted by Torval
    Originally posted by Nitth

    I don't understand why people have to complicate things.

    I going to be honest: I don't know who the fuck Derek Smart is. I don't really care.

    But from what i can see he proposes some very reasonable and thought out questions about SC if you have reservations about the state of development.

    Its a shame people attack the person in order to "devalue" the questions.

    Information is only as good as the source so you should care.

    Here is just one reason, among others, why this particular person raising these questions is interesting if not suspect: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=3000AD

    He doesn't really pass his own litmus test. He doesn't care about transparency, integrity, or the gamer/customer. He just likes to stir things up, but he doesn't practice what he preaches.

    Look how many of the reviews are AFTER his post on his blog. And you don't need to own the game to add a review on Steam.

    That litmus test was tainted before it even started...XD

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Torval
     

    Information is only as good as the source so you should care.

    Exactly, but they don't care, the information is what they want to hear, so nothing else matters.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Torval
    Originally posted by Nitth

    I don't understand why people have to complicate things.

    I going to be honest: I don't know who the fuck Derek Smart is. I don't really care.

    But from what i can see he proposes some very reasonable and thought out questions about SC if you have reservations about the state of development.

    Its a shame people attack the person in order to "devalue" the questions.

    Information is only as good as the source so you should care.

    Here is just one reason, among others, why this particular person raising these questions is interesting if not suspect: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=3000AD

    He doesn't really pass his own litmus test. He doesn't care about transparency, integrity, or the gamer/customer. He just likes to stir things up, but he doesn't practice what he preaches.

    What am I look for?

    His track record, those are his games. All launched in unfavorable states.

    Ah yes, the Steam "reviews."  I'll pick a random on from a random game:

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/MARK2000/recommended/345580/

     

     

    Enough said about Steam "reviews."

     

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Torval
    Originally posted by Nitth

    I don't understand why people have to complicate things.

    I going to be honest: I don't know who the fuck Derek Smart is. I don't really care.

    But from what i can see he proposes some very reasonable and thought out questions about SC if you have reservations about the state of development.

    Its a shame people attack the person in order to "devalue" the questions.

    Information is only as good as the source so you should care.

    Here is just one reason, among others, why this particular person raising these questions is interesting if not suspect: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=3000AD

    He doesn't really pass his own litmus test. He doesn't care about transparency, integrity, or the gamer/customer. He just likes to stir things up, but he doesn't practice what he preaches.

    What am I look for?

    His track record, those are his games. All launched in unfavorable states.

    Ah yes, the Steam "reviews."  I'll pick a random on from a random game:

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/MARK2000/recommended/345580/

     

     

    Enough said about Steam "reviews."

     

     

    LOL you think that's just the view on steam? Really?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by Torval
    Originally posted by Nitth

    I don't understand why people have to complicate things.

    I going to be honest: I don't know who the fuck Derek Smart is. I don't really care.

    But from what i can see he proposes some very reasonable and thought out questions about SC if you have reservations about the state of development.

    Its a shame people attack the person in order to "devalue" the questions.

    Information is only as good as the source so you should care.

    Here is just one reason, among others, why this particular person raising these questions is interesting if not suspect: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=3000AD

    He doesn't really pass his own litmus test. He doesn't care about transparency, integrity, or the gamer/customer. He just likes to stir things up, but he doesn't practice what he preaches.

    What am I look for?

    His track record, those are his games. All launched in unfavorable states.

    Ah yes, the Steam "reviews."  I'll pick a random on from a random game:

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/MARK2000/recommended/345580/

     

     

    Enough said about Steam "reviews."

     

     

    LOL you think that's just the view on steam? Really?

    LOL you think I care about one line "rants" that pass as reviews on Steam or any other site?  Who cares if Johnny McNoob didn't like a game that I might.......really?

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,620
    Originally posted by Rollgunner

    *EDIT* *EDIT*

    Apparently, The original story is true as confirmed by a SC rep:

     CIG unilaterally refunds Derek Smart's Kickstarter pledge for SC

    I'll maintain my opinion that silencing your critics is a bad idea.

     

    Originally posted by Rollgunner

     


    Originally posted by Torval I don't think it's dangerous or a precedent at all. Business I have worked for have, without prior warning to the customer, stopped business with them and refunded their entire payment. Some customers are bad for your business. It's better that they go elsewhere. Derek Smart got what he had coming. As an industry insider (I know that's a stretch) and a public figure his criticism of the company, the message, and the way it was delivered  is such that this shouldn't be unexpected. I applaud CIG for both refunding and for sending that message.
    But if the customer was released from their business agreement (presumably) because they thought said business was operating in a corrupt fashion, then we're back to the Appearance of Impropriety again.

     

    Appearance of Impropriety

    Whether they intended to or not, in the common man's mind, they have lent some air of credibility to Smart's claims by unexpectedly dropping him as a customer.

     

    I have to call BS on this...Pretty much every mmo/game forum will perma ban someone they feel is there just to cause trouble or for dubious reasons, hell even passionate posters that love the game and get emotional and carried away will get bans both temp and permanent. 

    This guy obviously has ulterior motives so CIG giving him his money back and banning him from the forum is just protecting their product...that said that a far cry from "silencing him" as he is obvious vocal enough on the net that we are talking about him right here on the mmorpg site and to think I had never heard about this guy before.

    Anyone who has read my posts here and even mods that have given me an occasional time out would have to say I very very rarely take the side of the big bad company run by suits but this here well even I can see is just hate mongering and I have to say good on CIG.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,504
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Torval
     

    Information is only as good as the source so you should care.

    Exactly, but they don't care, the information is what they want to hear, so nothing else matters.

    I don't understand the point you're trying to make, the only information he posted was asking for more information on certain aspects of game & business decisions that have been made upto this point, wanting more clarification and information about state of the game / heading of the game and staffing choices. anything todo with money etc.. comes under business decisions so i chose to leave out the offshore account deal.

    The fact people keep trying to discredit his post with his past is ridiculous... it's the exact same as what you're saying other people on the opposite side of the fence are doing by asking the questions that he posed.. or supporting the fact that he asked them.

     

    The truth is, there is very little information on the game, the points he made are true and do require clarification, the points he made in regards to moduiles and timelines are also correct and require clarification and all that seems to be happening from CIG is new models being released for sale, which arent even in the game yet.

     

    So as it stands as an outside, it looks very much like a fund generator sim, instead of a space sim.... and it's working quite well considering they've raised in excess of 85 million dollars. I feel that anyone who has pledged money and is concerned with the same things he has raised and there is a lot of those people as more time goes on and the only real things to be released are "ships" that dont actually exist should be allowed to ask the questions and get some clarification on what's going on.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,620
    Originally posted by Torval
    Originally posted by TheOctagon
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    I wonder if CIG will refund everyone else as well, when it becomes more apparent that what was promised with SC and what will be delivered are two different things.

    That's an easy one!

    Just post an article calling for people to use common sense in relations to the state of SC and ask backers to ask questions about the state of the game and if it will really be released with everything promised.

    Make sure to do this on a 3rd party website that has no affiliation with SC at all.

    Instant refund.

    A lot of people have criticized and not been shown the door. You're not a young man, you should know that you don't fire every grumpy, grumbly, or complaining customer. If you did that you'd be out of business quick.

    But he wasn't your typical customer was he. He is an industry member and more than a vocal critic he crossed the line to active dissenter. He encouraged other customers to revolt, file lawsuits, and contact the FTC. When a customer makes aggressive acts that can cost you money or are so unhappy that generate negative attention then it's time for them to go.

    Questions, criticism, calls for transparency and communication are good. He went way past that and has his own dirty backyard to boot.

    Exactly....

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





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