... but that IS all I, and many other backers, want. Again, this is not about Derek Smart for us. You DSmart nay-sayers can't seem to, for whatever reason, get past whatever issues you have with him.
What have I said that is against your cause? I gladly support folks getting what they deserve one way or the other be it vindication for backers.. or exposure of wrong doing for CIG...My point was once backers are happy, it most likely doesn't end there for CIG and Derek Smart. IF you don't want to talk about that, feel free to ignore it, yet don't sit here and lecture me.
No one is trying to lecture you. But if I was, I would do so whether you liked it or not. If such were the case that I was lecturing you, however, and you did not like it and did not want to be lectured, then you could take your own advice, and it would be completely withing your right to ignore my post and go on about your business. Or you can, otherwise, keep it civil and I will respond in kind. Capiche?
... but that IS all I, and many other backers, want. Again, this is not about Derek Smart for us. You DSmart nay-sayers can't seem to, for whatever reason, get past whatever issues you have with him.
What have I said that is against your cause? I gladly support folks getting what they deserve one way or the other be it vindication for backers.. or exposure of wrong doing for CIG...My point was once backers are happy, it most likely doesn't end there for CIG and Derek Smart. IF you don't want to talk about that, feel free to ignore it, yet don't sit here and lecture me.
No one is trying to lecture you. And if I was, I would do so whether you liked it or not. If such were the case that I was lecturing you, however, and you did not like it and did not want to be lectured, then you would be completely withing your right to ignore my post and go on about your business. Or you can, otherwise, keep it civil and I will respond it kind. Capiche?
Sorry that's how it read to me, we've had enough back and forth conversation , I understand exactly where you're coming from, I'm not against you in any way. Even if you do come off as against what i am saying. Which is fine, you don't have to agree. I thought I was being civil, maybe i need to work on that... message got..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And I can't wait until donators see how much cash these people have spent on there own personal lives.
Nor can I if that is the case.
People DO know that Chris Roberts was not exactly poor as a church mouse even BEFORE he started this project, do they not ?
I am interested ... HOW will people know if ANY money spend on his private life came from the last 2.5 years of his life (and out of the crowdfunding money) instead of the first 44 years of his life (and the money earned from a few world famous computer games like Wing Commander and various Hollywood blockbuster movies like Lord of War) ?
Have fun
I gotta stop editing my posts to add more thoughts, ha... This is what i added after you started to quote it..."Yet you have to remember that money is to pay their salaries, that's the point of kickstarter. People can't do this and work a full time job as well, hence the main reason in going for crowdfunding in the first place. It's money to maintain the business, which is essential to have a game. So you can bet any crowdfunded studio is using that money in their personal lives"
Correct. I suspect that if this "forensic accounting" ever happens, the worst offense they might find is hiring too many people, paying good salaries and "wasted" R&D... a long way from malfeasance.
Poor budget management is not a criminal offense last time I looked.
Exactly
Depends. There are rumors of a personal Jet and those arent cheap. You also have to wonder how much he is paying himself and his 2 family members. Is it a fair wage? Are they grossly overpaid? Do they really have 300 employees? Do the books reflect that? Did any of the backer money go toward any personal uses? What about the actual progress of the game? Only a fraction of the ships they have sold actually exist... And a ton of other questions.
I suspect some of those answers wouldnt reflect to kindly on them.
... but that IS all I, and many other backers, want. Again, this is not about Derek Smart for us. You DSmart nay-sayers can't seem to, for whatever reason, get past whatever issues you have with him.
What have I said that is against your cause? I gladly support folks getting what they deserve one way or the other be it vindication for backers.. or exposure of wrong doing for CIG...My point was once backers are happy, it most likely doesn't end there for CIG and Derek Smart. IF you don't want to talk about that, feel free to ignore it, yet don't sit here and lecture me.
No one is trying to lecture you. And if I was, I would do so whether you liked it or not. If such were the case that I was lecturing you, however, and you did not like it and did not want to be lectured, then you would be completely withing your right to ignore my post and go on about your business. Or you can, otherwise, keep it civil and I will respond it kind. Capiche?
Sorry that's how it read to me, we've had enough back and forth conversation , I understand exactly where you're coming from, I'm not against you in any way. Even if you do come off as against what i am saying. Which is fine, you don't have to agree. I thought I was being civil, maybe i need to work on that... message got..
Despite our differences on this topic you're good with me Distopia. Nothing personal.
The more I think about this, the more I like it. I hope some forensic accountant takes ALL of Smart's money and then finds the obvious lack of malfeasance. Then CIG can have a forensic account find out where that $1m came from, because it can't possibly from selling his shit games.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
And I can't wait until donators see how much cash these people have spent on there own personal lives.
Nor can I if that is the case.
People DO know that Chris Roberts was not exactly poor as a church mouse even BEFORE he started this project, do they not ?
I am interested ... HOW will people know if ANY money spend on his private life came from the last 2.5 years of his life (and out of the crowdfunding money) instead of the first 44 years of his life (and the money earned from a few world famous computer games like Wing Commander and various Hollywood blockbuster movies like Lord of War) ?
Have fun
I gotta stop editing my posts to add more thoughts, ha... This is what i added after you started to quote it..."Yet you have to remember that money is to pay their salaries, that's the point of kickstarter. People can't do this and work a full time job as well, hence the main reason in going for crowdfunding in the first place. It's money to maintain the business, which is essential to have a game. So you can bet any crowdfunded studio is using that money in their personal lives"
Correct. I suspect that if this "forensic accounting" ever happens, the worst offense they might find is hiring too many people, paying good salaries and "wasted" R&D... a long way from malfeasance.
Poor budget management is not a criminal offense last time I looked.
Exactly
Depends. There are rumors of a personal Jet and those arent cheap. You also have to wonder how much he is paying himself and his 2 family members. Is it a fair wage? Are they grossly overpaid? Do they really have 300 employees? Do the books reflect that? Did any of the backer money go toward any personal uses? What about the actual progress of the game? Only a fraction of the ships they have sold actually exist... And a ton of other questions.
I suspect some of those answers wouldnt reflect to kindly on them.
KS only promise. We get X money you will get Y product. No saying its ok if he spent some of that money on something nice for himself before the game was made but... At this point, nobody has broken any laws. Till he cant make the game. Has that happened?
You people are disregarding the message entirely, even if you agree with its premise, simply because you don't like the man. That makes no sense and I don't understand how you people don't see that.
We DO question his motives in asking the questions - motives which have nothing to do with him wanting to help any backers or improve the industry. He was NEVER interested in such trivialities.
We DO question his character too - some of us have seen him in action in the past. Deja Vu.
Let the message be voiced by someone like Sid Meier and THEN we take notice. Although i personally doubt that any person of Sid Meiers calibre would do that.
Have fun
This is not about Derek Smart or his intentions whatever they may be.
CIG could make all of this go away within 24 hours by producing a financial report.
I think it's fair to say: "If you have nothing to hide why are you worried of disclosing your financials to the people you got your money from?"
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
I think D.Smart is partly right and partly wrong here.
Firstly, Kickstarter backers are not entitled to a refund. Although, having said that, it would be an act of good faith by any Kickstarter company to give them on request. And I have read that Kickstarter projects are winding up in court... so as well as being good faith to give refunds... probably a smart move too.
It probably should be a legal requirement to give them at some point if the project fails - but that needs to be tested by a court. All countries need to catch up with internet trends too - and put some proper laws in place to cover the global market the internet has become - but that's a way away.
The people who have the best chance at a refund (at some time in the future) are those who purchased through the RSI store.
ToS don't really matter a damn (despite what game companies like to say and think) they are very shabby and dubious contracts at best. Any serious challenge would probably rip large holes in most of them. Really, the important stuff is covered under copyright and IP laws in most countries. In countries where it isn't... ToS could not be enforced either.
As for what the funds have been used for... so long as CIG / RSI can show a line of code (even if it is buggy crap) there is probably not a lot that can be done. Provided they tried.
Even if it turns out they were totally incompetent - so long as they can show they honestly tried to make a game they are probably in the clear.
As for salaries and private jets... all that has to be shown is that people in similar roles have received similar benefits and that is in the clear too. That's how it works.
Frankly I think D.Smart is over reaching a little here. What he should be reaching for is a fair and open 'progress report' along with some kind of assessment on if and when a game is likely to be released and what features it is likely to have.
Based on that, those who purchased virtual items in the RSI store should be given the option of refunds if it appears they may not get what they paid for in a reasonable time frame.
On the good side though, the fallout from this drama could shake the gaming industry up a bit. Some stronger consumer laws (particularly in places like the US) wouldn't be a bad thing.
All CIG has to do is answer a short list of 8 demands? That is all. What is so unreasonable about that? And there would be no lawsuit if they did that. As matter of fact, this would all just go away and CIG can continue on their way to developing the game peacefully. Not only that, it would probably garner them so much in terms of good relations PR that they would probably receive a substantial increase in contributions as a result. The fact that CIG is refusing to answer to those 8 questions is an admission of guilt in and of itself. Particularly when taking into account best and worst case scenarios. Alas, it's not looking good for CIG at this point. And it is all of their own doing.
Sure that may be what the backers want and all that backers want... I highly doubt that's where Smart would stop though.
... but that IS all I, and many other backers, want. Again, this is not about Derek Smart for us. You DSmart nay-sayers can't seem to, for whatever reason, get past whatever issues you have with him. Many of us, however, are able to separate the man from the message. His message voices OUR concerns and as such we support and appreciate him for his effort in this cause. I don't know how many times we have to repeat this to you Derek Smart criticizers. It is, or should be, entirely possible to not like a person but support a cause that the person is advancing if the cause rings true.
You people are disregarding the message entirely, even if you agree with its premise, simply because you don't like the man. That makes no sense and I don't understand how you people don't see that. That said, I know most of you are smarter than that and it really isn't just about the man. It is understood that many of these could very well be shills, employees, and even family members and friends, and that is all well and good. History has proven that even the worst of people and events have had their supporters. There is even an instance of a crazed maniacal dictator somewhere in Europe receiving support from an entire nation. So I wouldn't expect it to be any different in this regard.
Some of this demands can be answered with fairly small amount of research of your own. His 7th demand is just plain idiotic.. I've thoroughly eviscerated that demand.
You can question Sandi Gardiner being promoted to VP (of Marketing) until you research why she would be qualified for that after seeing that she was one of the co-founders of the crowdfunding project ... you know, part of helping CIG raise $85 MILLION through marketing...
She has no role in such stuff as design, production, sound, art, etc... she has no say in that. This baffles me people are still taking this part seriously.
Erin Roberts has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD of released products in which he was the 'producer on'. His promotion was to Executive Producer... so why exactly wasn't he qualified?
Let's assume for a moment that Derek Smart was honest in that demand. That just speaks to his incompetence to properly research the hires himself.
The rest of the demands are also unreasonable for various, real reasons that take a bit more understanding or knowledge to understand why. People just don't want to take the time since raising pitchforks is easier and more entertaining to them.
And I can't wait until donators see how much cash these people have spent on there own personal lives.
Nor can I if that is the case.
People DO know that Chris Roberts was not exactly poor as a church mouse even BEFORE he started this project, do they not ?
I am interested ... HOW will people know if ANY money spend on his private life came from the last 2.5 years of his life (and out of the crowdfunding money) instead of the first 44 years of his life (and the money earned from a few world famous computer games like Wing Commander and various Hollywood blockbuster movies like Lord of War) ?
Have fun
I gotta stop editing my posts to add more thoughts, ha... This is what i added after you started to quote it..."Yet you have to remember that money is to pay their salaries, that's the point of kickstarter. People can't do this and work a full time job as well, hence the main reason in going for crowdfunding in the first place. It's money to maintain the business, which is essential to have a game. So you can bet any crowdfunded studio is using that money in their personal lives"
Correct. I suspect that if this "forensic accounting" ever happens, the worst offense they might find is hiring too many people, paying good salaries and "wasted" R&D... a long way from malfeasance.
Poor budget management is not a criminal offense last time I looked.
Exactly
Depends. There are rumors of a personal Jet and those arent cheap. You also have to wonder how much he is paying himself and his 2 family members. Is it a fair wage? Are they grossly overpaid? Do they really have 300 employees? Do the books reflect that? Did any of the backer money go toward any personal uses? What about the actual progress of the game? Only a fraction of the ships they have sold actually exist... And a ton of other questions.
I suspect some of those answers wouldnt reflect to kindly on them.
KS only promise. We get X money you will get Y product. No saying its ok if he spent some of that money on something nice for himself before the game was made but... At this point, nobody has broken any laws. Till he cant make the game. Has that happened?
For those that backed on kickstarter.. Yes. That game does not and will not ever exist. So at least that 2.1 million deserves to be gave back to any that want a refund. That game was supposed to have been out last Nov.
I think D.Smart is partly right and partly wrong here.
Firstly, Kickstarter backers are not entitled to a refund. Although, having said that, it would be an act of good faith by any Kickstarter company to give them on request. And I have read that Kickstarter projects are winding up in court... so as well as being good faith to give refunds... probably a smart move too.
It probably should be a legal requirement to give them at some point if the project fails - but that needs to be tested by a court. All countries need to catch up with internet trends too - and put some proper laws in place to cover the global market the internet has become - but that's a way away.
The people who have the best chance at a refund (at some time in the future) are those who purchased through the RSI store.
ToS don't really matter a damn (despite what game companies like to say and think) they are very shabby and dubious contracts at best. Any serious challenge would probably rip large holes in most of them. Really, the important stuff is covered under copyright and IP laws in most countries. In countries where it isn't... ToS could not be enforced either.
As for what the funds have been used for... so long as CIG / RSI can show a line of code (even if it is buggy crap) there is probably not a lot that can be done. Provided they tried.
Even if it turns out they were totally incompetent - so long as they can show they honestly tried to make a game they are probably in the clear.
As for salaries and private jets... all that has to be shown is that people in similar roles have received similar benefits and that is in the clear too. That's how it works.
Frankly I think D.Smart is over reaching a little here. What he should be reaching for is a fair and open 'progress report' along with some kind of assessment on if and when a game is likely to be released and what features it is likely to have.
Based on that, those who purchased virtual items in the RSI store should be given the option of refunds if it appears they may not get what they paid for in a reasonable time frame.
On the good side though, the fallout from this drama could shake the gaming industry up a bit. Some stronger consumer laws (particularly in places like the US) wouldn't be a bad thing.
FTC has already gotten involved with crowdfunding, see here:
You people are disregarding the message entirely, even if you agree with its premise, simply because you don't like the man. That makes no sense and I don't understand how you people don't see that.
We DO question his motives in asking the questions - motives which have nothing to do with him wanting to help any backers or improve the industry. He was NEVER interested in such trivialities.
We DO question his character too - some of us have seen him in action in the past. Deja Vu.
Let the message be voiced by someone like Sid Meier and THEN we take notice. Although i personally doubt that any person of Sid Meiers calibre would do that.
Have fun
This is not about Derek Smart or his intentions whatever they may be.
CIG could make all of this go away within 24 hours by producing a financial report.
I think it's fair to say: "If you have nothing to hide why are you worried of disclosing your financials to the people you got your money from?"
Have faith!
And, by releasing the financial details on the level that Derek Smart will eventually demand (and people will blindly follow) can give competing companies that may be building a similar product a huge advantage. There's a reason why financial data isn't released by private companies; and only released quarterly (without actual minute details of individual projects to the public). Derek Smart KNOWS this. This is why he knows that CIG won't and 'cannot' do this since it'd be detrimental to the company even if they're legitimately plugging away at Star Citizen (which, BY ALL KNOWN INDICATIONS, they are).
Once there was a little boy, who dreamed of making space games. He grows up to become a game developer, he was good but not quite good enough, so he was overshadowed by the biggest talents of game development world and ended up at the bottom of the food chain. So he begins his crusade of defaming the talents with his cunning manipulation of ignorant masses with wordplay like "professional accountability" or "companies mishandling money taking from backers". He has already been proven tricky enough to hostile takeover one company, now he thinks : "one more!!! and this time it will be you roberts!! you because of whom my life has become such failure!!".
I want to give him my best wishes like many other ignorant fools here but i am not one of them. so derek "moron", you can go to hell.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I'm watching this whole debate on both threads created by MMORPG staff and i'm amazed about how easy the people running this website fell for mr. Smart's publicity stunt. And of course all the haters jumped on Derek Smart's joy ride.
All one has to do is go through Derek Smart's credentials regarding game development and compare them to Chris Roberts's work and history.
Yeah. I have followed a few cases - but hadn't seen that article - so thanks for the link.
I will be interested to see how this develops particularly in the US with bodies like the FTC - since (even though US consumers are not aware) consumer protection laws in the US are weaker than in many other countries - particularly where software is involved.
Protection for internet purchases is a whole area of problem too - since consumers are effectively dealing with a merchant in another country most of the time. At the moment, complaining to you credit card provider is probably more effective than anything.
You people are disregarding the message entirely, even if you agree with its premise, simply because you don't like the man. That makes no sense and I don't understand how you people don't see that.
We DO question his motives in asking the questions - motives which have nothing to do with him wanting to help any backers or improve the industry. He was NEVER interested in such trivialities.
We DO question his character too - some of us have seen him in action in the past. Deja Vu.
Let the message be voiced by someone like Sid Meier and THEN we take notice. Although i personally doubt that any person of Sid Meiers calibre would do that.
Have fun
This is not about Derek Smart or his intentions whatever they may be.
CIG could make all of this go away within 24 hours by producing a financial report.
I think it's fair to say: "If you have nothing to hide why are you worried of disclosing your financials to the people you got your money from?"
Have faith!
And, by releasing the financial details on the level that Derek Smart will eventually demand (and people will blindly follow) can give competing companies that may be building a similar product a huge advantage. There's a reason why financial data isn't released by private companies; and only released quarterly (without actual minute details of individual projects to the public). Derek Smart KNOWS this. This is why he knows that CIG won't and 'cannot' do this since it'd be detrimental to the company even if they're legitimately plugging away at Star Citizen (which, BY ALL KNOWN INDICATIONS, they are).
That has to be the most ridiculous thing i have read in a long time. The biggest companies in the world disclose their financial details every year, some even quarterly. Almost all private companies produce financial statements every year. There is nothing in these reports that could be used to build a similar product with a huge advantage. Have you ever read a financial report before?
See if you can stick that foot in a little deeper.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
Derek Smart says that if you don't agree with him, you obviously form part of CIG's “cult-like” “army of White Knight backers” and “nutjobs” and “degenerates.”
He goes on to say:
“These bastards, most of whom were probably running around in diapers, rubbing poo-dipped hands on their faces, when I was earning my chops as a hardcore Internet Warlord, simply don’t know who they’re dealing with”
This is more like the Derek we all know so well. The Beast has been awoken.
Man, his blog reads like a satire, but it's not. Pathetic and sad. He reads like a drunk man who just got ditched by his wife.
Considering he had to hire people to check news (his own word) about the game to come up with his crackpot conclusions of funding mishandling, I doubt he read anything the dev said over the last 2.7 years at this point.
I'm watching this whole debate on both threads created by MMORPG staff and i'm amazed about how easy the people running this website fell for mr. Smart's publicity stunt. And of course all the haters jumped on Derek Smart's joy ride.
All one has to do is go through Derek Smart's credentials regarding game development and compare them to Chris Roberts's work and history.
And what are your credentials to make a judgement on either of these individuals credentials?
Have you worked in the games industry? Have you released a game successfully? Have you worked with either of them?
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
And I can't wait until donators see how much cash these people have spent on there own personal lives.
Nor can I if that is the case.
People DO know that Chris Roberts was not exactly poor as a church mouse even BEFORE he started this project, do they not ?
I am interested ... HOW will people know if ANY money spend on his private life came from the last 2.5 years of his life (and out of the crowdfunding money) instead of the first 44 years of his life (and the money earned from a few world famous computer games like Wing Commander and various Hollywood blockbuster movies like Lord of War) ?
Have fun
I gotta stop editing my posts to add more thoughts, ha... This is what i added after you started to quote it..."Yet you have to remember that money is to pay their salaries, that's the point of kickstarter. People can't do this and work a full time job as well, hence the main reason in going for crowdfunding in the first place. It's money to maintain the business, which is essential to have a game. So you can bet any crowdfunded studio is using that money in their personal lives"
Correct. I suspect that if this "forensic accounting" ever happens, the worst offense they might find is hiring too many people, paying good salaries and "wasted" R&D... a long way from malfeasance.
Poor budget management is not a criminal offense last time I looked.
Exactly
Depends. There are rumors of a personal Jet and those arent cheap. You also have to wonder how much he is paying himself and his 2 family members. Is it a fair wage? Are they grossly overpaid? Do they really have 300 employees? Do the books reflect that? Did any of the backer money go toward any personal uses? What about the actual progress of the game? Only a fraction of the ships they have sold actually exist... And a ton of other questions.
I suspect some of those answers wouldnt reflect to kindly on them.
KS only promise. We get X money you will get Y product. No saying its ok if he spent some of that money on something nice for himself before the game was made but... At this point, nobody has broken any laws. Till he cant make the game. Has that happened?
For those that backed on kickstarter.. Yes. That game does not and will not ever exist. So at least that 2.1 million deserves to be gave back to any that want a refund. That game was supposed to have been out last Nov.
You people are disregarding the message entirely, even if you agree with its premise, simply because you don't like the man. That makes no sense and I don't understand how you people don't see that.
We DO question his motives in asking the questions - motives which have nothing to do with him wanting to help any backers or improve the industry. He was NEVER interested in such trivialities.
We DO question his character too - some of us have seen him in action in the past. Deja Vu.
Let the message be voiced by someone like Sid Meier and THEN we take notice. Although i personally doubt that any person of Sid Meiers calibre would do that.
Have fun
This is not about Derek Smart or his intentions whatever they may be.
CIG could make all of this go away within 24 hours by producing a financial report.
I think it's fair to say: "If you have nothing to hide why are you worried of disclosing your financials to the people you got your money from?"
Have faith!
And, by releasing the financial details on the level that Derek Smart will eventually demand (and people will blindly follow) can give competing companies that may be building a similar product a huge advantage. There's a reason why financial data isn't released by private companies; and only released quarterly (without actual minute details of individual projects to the public). Derek Smart KNOWS this. This is why he knows that CIG won't and 'cannot' do this since it'd be detrimental to the company even if they're legitimately plugging away at Star Citizen (which, BY ALL KNOWN INDICATIONS, they are).
That has to be the most ridiculous thing i have read in a long time. The biggest companies in the world disclose their financial details every year, some even quarterly. Almost all private companies produce financial statements every year. There is nothing in these reports that could be used to build a similar product with a huge advantage. Have you ever read a financial report before?
See if you can stick that foot in a little deeper.
Have faith!
Derek is actually asking for things even public traded companies do not reveal to the public. He want to see the bank accounts and where the money is going:
disclose the full detailed (private jet travel? we want to see it) P&L accounting (money in off-shore bank accounts? we want to know about them) for every crowd-funded dime that has been raised and spent on this project. Allow an independent forensics accountant, hired by backers, to come and do an audit. This is standard practice in developer-publisher relationships. So you know how that works.
And I can't wait until donators see how much cash these people have spent on there own personal lives.
Nor can I if that is the case.
People DO know that Chris Roberts was not exactly poor as a church mouse even BEFORE he started this project, do they not ?
I am interested ... HOW will people know if ANY money spend on his private life came from the last 2.5 years of his life (and out of the crowdfunding money) instead of the first 44 years of his life (and the money earned from a few world famous computer games like Wing Commander and various Hollywood blockbuster movies like Lord of War) ?
Have fun
I gotta stop editing my posts to add more thoughts, ha... This is what i added after you started to quote it..."Yet you have to remember that money is to pay their salaries, that's the point of kickstarter. People can't do this and work a full time job as well, hence the main reason in going for crowdfunding in the first place. It's money to maintain the business, which is essential to have a game. So you can bet any crowdfunded studio is using that money in their personal lives"
Correct. I suspect that if this "forensic accounting" ever happens, the worst offense they might find is hiring too many people, paying good salaries and "wasted" R&D... a long way from malfeasance.
Poor budget management is not a criminal offense last time I looked.
Exactly
Depends. There are rumors of a personal Jet and those arent cheap. You also have to wonder how much he is paying himself and his 2 family members. Is it a fair wage? Are they grossly overpaid? Do they really have 300 employees? Do the books reflect that? Did any of the backer money go toward any personal uses? What about the actual progress of the game? Only a fraction of the ships they have sold actually exist... And a ton of other questions.
I suspect some of those answers wouldnt reflect to kindly on them.
KS only promise. We get X money you will get Y product. No saying its ok if he spent some of that money on something nice for himself before the game was made but... At this point, nobody has broken any laws. Till he cant make the game. Has that happened?
For those that backed on kickstarter.. Yes. That game does not and will not ever exist. So at least that 2.1 million deserves to be gave back to any that want a refund. That game was supposed to have been out last Nov.
I'm watching this whole debate on both threads created by MMORPG staff and i'm amazed about how easy the people running this website fell for mr. Smart's publicity stunt. And of course all the haters jumped on Derek Smart's joy ride.
All one has to do is go through Derek Smart's credentials regarding game development and compare them to Chris Roberts's work and history.
And what are your credentials to make a judgement on either of these individuals credentials?
Have you worked in the games industry? Have you released a game successfully? Have you worked with either of them?
See how silly your "argument" is?
Argument? There is no argument here. The info about both Roberts and Smart is out there, crystal clear to read and compare. Mr. Smart's magnum opus, Battlecruiser 3000AD scored a whooping 2.5 / 10 on most reviews....
I'm watching this whole debate on both threads created by MMORPG staff and i'm amazed about how easy the people running this website fell for mr. Smart's publicity stunt. And of course all the haters jumped on Derek Smart's joy ride.
All one has to do is go through Derek Smart's credentials regarding game development and compare them to Chris Roberts's work and history.
And what are your credentials to make a judgement on either of these individuals credentials?
Have you worked in the games industry? Have you released a game successfully? Have you worked with either of them?
See how silly your "argument" is?
Argument? There is no argument here. The info about both Roberts and Smart is out there, crystal clear to read and compare.
Except no one cares about Roberts or Smart. What we do care about is CIG and accountability for the $85 MILLION in contributed game development funds.
I'm watching this whole debate on both threads created by MMORPG staff and i'm amazed about how easy the people running this website fell for mr. Smart's publicity stunt. And of course all the haters jumped on Derek Smart's joy ride.
All one has to do is go through Derek Smart's credentials regarding game development and compare them to Chris Roberts's work and history.
And what are your credentials to make a judgement on either of these individuals credentials?
Have you worked in the games industry? Have you released a game successfully? Have you worked with either of them?
See how silly your "argument" is?
Argument? There is no argument here. The info about both Roberts and Smart is out there, crystal clear to read and compare.
"In the wake of the collapse of Digital Anvil, co-founder and soon-to-be-former CEO Chris Roberts has spoken about his decision to leave the company he founded just four years ago. As we suspected, the company's troubles were down to "wanting to develop not only hugely ambitious games, but too many hugely ambitious games", leaving the company's finances stretched after four years without a single game being released - the sole title to emerge with the Digital Anvil name on it was actually mostly developed by a small British company.................."
Edit:
To respond to your edit, lets review the games by Chris Roberts at Digital Anvil, sorry no games to review as he made none.
Comments
No one is trying to lecture you. But if I was, I would do so whether you liked it or not. If such were the case that I was lecturing you, however, and you did not like it and did not want to be lectured, then you could take your own advice, and it would be completely withing your right to ignore my post and go on about your business. Or you can, otherwise, keep it civil and I will respond in kind. Capiche?
Sorry that's how it read to me, we've had enough back and forth conversation , I understand exactly where you're coming from, I'm not against you in any way. Even if you do come off as against what i am saying. Which is fine, you don't have to agree. I thought I was being civil, maybe i need to work on that... message got..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Depends. There are rumors of a personal Jet and those arent cheap. You also have to wonder how much he is paying himself and his 2 family members. Is it a fair wage? Are they grossly overpaid? Do they really have 300 employees? Do the books reflect that? Did any of the backer money go toward any personal uses? What about the actual progress of the game? Only a fraction of the ships they have sold actually exist... And a ton of other questions.
I suspect some of those answers wouldnt reflect to kindly on them.
Despite our differences on this topic you're good with me Distopia. Nothing personal.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
Agreed
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
KS only promise. We get X money you will get Y product. No saying its ok if he spent some of that money on something nice for himself before the game was made but... At this point, nobody has broken any laws. Till he cant make the game. Has that happened?
This is not about Derek Smart or his intentions whatever they may be.
CIG could make all of this go away within 24 hours by producing a financial report.
I think it's fair to say: "If you have nothing to hide why are you worried of disclosing your financials to the people you got your money from?"
Have faith!
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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I think D.Smart is partly right and partly wrong here.
Firstly, Kickstarter backers are not entitled to a refund. Although, having said that, it would be an act of good faith by any Kickstarter company to give them on request. And I have read that Kickstarter projects are winding up in court... so as well as being good faith to give refunds... probably a smart move too.
It probably should be a legal requirement to give them at some point if the project fails - but that needs to be tested by a court. All countries need to catch up with internet trends too - and put some proper laws in place to cover the global market the internet has become - but that's a way away.
The people who have the best chance at a refund (at some time in the future) are those who purchased through the RSI store.
ToS don't really matter a damn (despite what game companies like to say and think) they are very shabby and dubious contracts at best. Any serious challenge would probably rip large holes in most of them. Really, the important stuff is covered under copyright and IP laws in most countries. In countries where it isn't... ToS could not be enforced either.
As for what the funds have been used for... so long as CIG / RSI can show a line of code (even if it is buggy crap) there is probably not a lot that can be done. Provided they tried.
Even if it turns out they were totally incompetent - so long as they can show they honestly tried to make a game they are probably in the clear.
As for salaries and private jets... all that has to be shown is that people in similar roles have received similar benefits and that is in the clear too. That's how it works.
Frankly I think D.Smart is over reaching a little here. What he should be reaching for is a fair and open 'progress report' along with some kind of assessment on if and when a game is likely to be released and what features it is likely to have.
Based on that, those who purchased virtual items in the RSI store should be given the option of refunds if it appears they may not get what they paid for in a reasonable time frame.
On the good side though, the fallout from this drama could shake the gaming industry up a bit. Some stronger consumer laws (particularly in places like the US) wouldn't be a bad thing.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Some of this demands can be answered with fairly small amount of research of your own. His 7th demand is just plain idiotic.. I've thoroughly eviscerated that demand.
You can question Sandi Gardiner being promoted to VP (of Marketing) until you research why she would be qualified for that after seeing that she was one of the co-founders of the crowdfunding project ... you know, part of helping CIG raise $85 MILLION through marketing...
She has no role in such stuff as design, production, sound, art, etc... she has no say in that. This baffles me people are still taking this part seriously.
Erin Roberts has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD of released products in which he was the 'producer on'. His promotion was to Executive Producer... so why exactly wasn't he qualified?
Let's assume for a moment that Derek Smart was honest in that demand. That just speaks to his incompetence to properly research the hires himself.
The rest of the demands are also unreasonable for various, real reasons that take a bit more understanding or knowledge to understand why. People just don't want to take the time since raising pitchforks is easier and more entertaining to them.
For those that backed on kickstarter.. Yes. That game does not and will not ever exist. So at least that 2.1 million deserves to be gave back to any that want a refund. That game was supposed to have been out last Nov.
FTC has already gotten involved with crowdfunding, see here:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/trouble-crowdfunding-next-big-tech-gadget-180951754/?no-ist
And, by releasing the financial details on the level that Derek Smart will eventually demand (and people will blindly follow) can give competing companies that may be building a similar product a huge advantage. There's a reason why financial data isn't released by private companies; and only released quarterly (without actual minute details of individual projects to the public). Derek Smart KNOWS this. This is why he knows that CIG won't and 'cannot' do this since it'd be detrimental to the company even if they're legitimately plugging away at Star Citizen (which, BY ALL KNOWN INDICATIONS, they are).
Once there was a little boy, who dreamed of making space games. He grows up to become a game developer, he was good but not quite good enough, so he was overshadowed by the biggest talents of game development world and ended up at the bottom of the food chain. So he begins his crusade of defaming the talents with his cunning manipulation of ignorant masses with wordplay like "professional accountability" or "companies mishandling money taking from backers". He has already been proven tricky enough to hostile takeover one company, now he thinks : "one more!!! and this time it will be you roberts!! you because of whom my life has become such failure!!".
I want to give him my best wishes like many other ignorant fools here but i am not one of them. so derek "moron", you can go to hell.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I'm watching this whole debate on both threads created by MMORPG staff and i'm amazed about how easy the people running this website fell for mr. Smart's publicity stunt. And of course all the haters jumped on Derek Smart's joy ride.
All one has to do is go through Derek Smart's credentials regarding game development and compare them to Chris Roberts's work and history.
Yeah. I have followed a few cases - but hadn't seen that article - so thanks for the link.
I will be interested to see how this develops particularly in the US with bodies like the FTC - since (even though US consumers are not aware) consumer protection laws in the US are weaker than in many other countries - particularly where software is involved.
Protection for internet purchases is a whole area of problem too - since consumers are effectively dealing with a merchant in another country most of the time. At the moment, complaining to you credit card provider is probably more effective than anything.
Watching with interest.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
That has to be the most ridiculous thing i have read in a long time. The biggest companies in the world disclose their financial details every year, some even quarterly. Almost all private companies produce financial statements every year. There is nothing in these reports that could be used to build a similar product with a huge advantage. Have you ever read a financial report before?
See if you can stick that foot in a little deeper.
Have faith!
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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Man, his blog reads like a satire, but it's not. Pathetic and sad. He reads like a drunk man who just got ditched by his wife.
Considering he had to hire people to check news (his own word) about the game to come up with his crackpot conclusions of funding mishandling, I doubt he read anything the dev said over the last 2.7 years at this point.
And what are your credentials to make a judgement on either of these individuals credentials?
Have you worked in the games industry? Have you released a game successfully? Have you worked with either of them?
See how silly your "argument" is?
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Proof?
Derek is actually asking for things even public traded companies do not reveal to the public. He want to see the bank accounts and where the money is going:
Argument? There is no argument here. The info about both Roberts and Smart is out there, crystal clear to read and compare. Mr. Smart's magnum opus, Battlecruiser 3000AD scored a whooping 2.5 / 10 on most reviews....
Except no one cares about Roberts or Smart. What we do care about is CIG and accountability for the $85 MILLION in contributed game development funds.
Correct, published 06/12/2000.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/article_29857
"In the wake of the collapse of Digital Anvil, co-founder and soon-to-be-former CEO Chris Roberts has spoken about his decision to leave the company he founded just four years ago. As we suspected, the company's troubles were down to "wanting to develop not only hugely ambitious games, but too many hugely ambitious games", leaving the company's finances stretched after four years without a single game being released - the sole title to emerge with the Digital Anvil name on it was actually mostly developed by a small British company.................."
Edit:
To respond to your edit, lets review the games by Chris Roberts at Digital Anvil, sorry no games to review as he made none.
See how silly using game reviews are?