I think the only one who clearly has their time line skewed is you no offense, but it has been already beat to death in threads here on this forum, I'll say it again one more time. The original scope of the game was a small niche space sim that Roberts thought fans would be interested in, it was going to be barely bigger than the already playable Arena Commander module. After the kickstarter ended is where it really started to take off and it brought in big money. Roberts had a post on the forums and a video and asked for community feedback on whether the game should have more than just Arena Commander type play, they decided it would be much bigger and that in turn takes more time. This has been said over and over, the original planed launch from the kickstarter were plans for a much smaller game.
So was Elite Dangerous... which we probably don't want to compare with Star Citizen side by side now because it is making Star Citizen's progress looks really embarassing. Elite is already going to release planetary landing in the next few months and Star Citizen doesn't even have a functional game yet.
Don't think scope is a good enough excuse imo.
Interesting also that DS didn't attack Elite Dangerous, or No Man's Sky, only Star Citizen. That man might be a troll but his trolling might not necessarily be incorrect.
You're right you can't compare the two, Elite Dangerous has been being worked on since before 2011, it has had much more time to get where it's at. Kickstarter for Star citizen didn't end till 2012, Elite Dangerous already had well over a year of work done before Star Citizen was even counted in. And being someone who's played both Star Citizen modules and Elite Dangerous, I'm putting my money on Star Citizen.
Star citizen was in development a year before its kickstarter-
What was the budget of E:D again? the teamsize? the manhours already burned through (lets companre manhours to manhours) I bet SC has been in development for FAR MORE manhours which is how these things are actually calculated.
OH, no I dont think people should be able to just change ships daily- I think there should be a timer- Only CIG would attach a monetary penalty to the people who have funded every single thing they have from their jobs, to the stationary and toilet paper at the office(s). Only CIG would niclkle and dime those people whove spent thousands when a simple timer (change ships every 30/60/90 days only) when they are the ones who 'oversold' the ships in terms of the expectations they created. yes, its slimy ... They really must be hurting to take a risk of pissing off the cash cows over a few bucks.
That said, thats why I'm shining a big bright light on this and everything else. The adbots have had their turn . I only need to sow seeds of doubt- CIG needs by some estimations another 1/3rd more than the money they've already collected and heaven only knows how much more time-With still no guarantee of anything but empty promises and a moving goal post . CIGs got a rough job where as doubt is starting to sow itself.
There's no end in sight-
-OH, you really should buy another ship or three- looks like they need the money.
EDIT- hear about the death threat against Derek Smart? People get crazy when they have thousands invested, huh? especially already crazy people who lose thousands.. Just seems some are mad at the wrong person. DS has put his ass on the line, researched and outlined this fiasco quite meticulously imho, faced ridicule and what essentially was a paid hate campaign against him- For daring to ask questions that no public person had the balls to ask and demand some much needed accountability.For taking up for the consumer and what is right (regardless of what some claim his motives are) he gets ad bot attacks and death threats. Gaming History however will take a different view once hes been vindicated. others like myself will do battle with the adbots as its the least we can do-Black Knights really do matter lol.
So what is this? 12th or 11th most expensive game in history already? Its going to be a hell of a ride now that we are nearing the point where words and promises are no longer sufficient. Time to pay the piper or some such thing =P
Fact (Status 29 SEP 2015): there is no fee for downsizing ships. there is no time-counter for ship swapping.
So far nothing has officially been announced.
And no, one comment by a community manager about things they think about is not an official announcement.
Have fun
FACT: When an official of CIG says "There will be a fee on downgrades. Basically, it's necessary to reduce the abuse of the system: people switching willy nilly between whatever ships they want to fly on this day and causing unnecessary database schmeg.
Schmeg. It's what's unnecessary for databases.
I couldn't think of the right word here."
can you understand why someone would think this was being implemented? by saying "THERE WILL BE..." means "THERE WILL BE" when it comes from an official rep except in Cigs world where they can change things like a "terms of service" and say 'THERE WILL BE..." and then change their mind.
How many times they change the TOS? 122 additions and 119 subtractions or some crazy shit already lolz. So yeah, Cig saying "THERE WILL BE" means really nothing.
That said I trust you and your info on this since you are a whole hell of a lot closer to the project than a mere community manager, amirite?
Morning btw- And happy Tuesday. Got your smartphone? Every day could get interesting from this point forward and we could have lots to talk about .
I think the only one who clearly has their time line skewed is you no offense, but it has been already beat to death in threads here on this forum, I'll say it again one more time. The original scope of the game was a small niche space sim that Roberts thought fans would be interested in, it was going to be barely bigger than the already playable Arena Commander module. After the kickstarter ended is where it really started to take off and it brought in big money. Roberts had a post on the forums and a video and asked for community feedback on whether the game should have more than just Arena Commander type play, they decided it would be much bigger and that in turn takes more time. This has been said over and over, the original planed launch from the kickstarter were plans for a much smaller game.
So was Elite Dangerous... which we probably don't want to compare with Star Citizen side by side now because it is making Star Citizen's progress looks really embarassing. Elite is already going to release planetary landing in the next few months and Star Citizen doesn't even have a functional game yet.
Don't think scope is a good enough excuse imo.
Interesting also that DS didn't attack Elite Dangerous, or No Man's Sky, only Star Citizen. That man might be a troll but his trolling might not necessarily be incorrect.
You're right you can't compare the two, Elite Dangerous has been being worked on since before 2011, it has had much more time to get where it's at. Kickstarter for Star citizen didn't end till 2012, Elite Dangerous already had well over a year of work done before Star Citizen was even counted in. And being someone who's played both Star Citizen modules and Elite Dangerous, I'm putting my money on Star Citizen.
Star citizen was in development a year before its kickstarter-
What was the budget of E:D again? the teamsize? the manhours already burned through (lets companre manhours to manhours) I bet SC has been in development for FAR MORE manhours which is how these things are actually calculated.
OH, no I dont think people should be able to just change ships daily- I think there should be a timer- Only CIG would attach a monetary penalty to the people who have funded every single thing they have from their jobs, to the stationary and toilet paper at the office(s). Only CIG would niclkle and dime those people whove spent thousands when a simple timer (change ships every 30/60/90 days only) when they are the ones who 'oversold' the ships in terms of the expectations they created. yes, its slimy ... They really must be hurting to take a risk of pissing off the cash cows over a few bucks.
That said, thats why I'm shining a big bright light on this and everything else. The adbots have had their turn . I only need to sow seeds of doubt- CIG needs by some estimations another 1/3rd more than the money they've already collected and heaven only knows how much more time-With still no guarantee of anything but empty promises and a moving goal post . CIGs got a rough job where as doubt is starting to sow itself.
There's no end in sight-
-OH, you really should buy another ship or three- looks like they need the money.
EDIT- hear about the death threat against Derek Smart? People get crazy when they have thousands invested, huh? especially already crazy people who lose thousands.. Just seems some are mad at the wrong person. DS has put his ass on the line, researched and outlined this fiasco quite meticulously imho, faced ridicule and what essentially was a paid hate campaign against him- For daring to ask questions that no public person had the balls to ask and demand some much needed accountability.For taking up for the consumer and what is right (regardless of what some claim his motives are) he gets ad bot attacks and death threats. Gaming History however will take a different view once hes been vindicated. others like myself will do battle with the adbots as its the least we can do-Black Knights really do matter lol.
So what is this? 12th or 11th most expensive game in history already? Its going to be a hell of a ride now that we are nearing the point where words and promises are no longer sufficient. Time to pay the piper or some such thing =P
You are the reason game companies stopped collaborating with players on design, if you can't take your opinions out of it and actually see both sides of a decision you won't get anywhere. Really it's time to get over this entitled attitude of "we gave them money, we own them". They are a business and they need to survive just like everyone else. I gave them money and have no problems with what they are doing. There are lots of people who feel the same way. There will always be kids that don't understand how the world works yet, complaining about something. This thread proves that.
Edit: I really don't want to give Derek Smart any more name drops than necessary, the man is scum, he sees things he wants, and he tries to take them using bully tactics and fallacy arguments. He has no logic, he's driven by greed. Any death threats against him are probably overreactions, but seeing how he's constantly trying to ruin peoples lives, for his own benefit, I can't say I'm surprised. I mean seriously it's no mystery why people dislike him, he's even been voted number 2 for gamings worst people on other forums. https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Derek_Smart
I think the only one who clearly has their time line skewed is you no offense, but it has been already beat to death in threads here on this forum, I'll say it again one more time. The original scope of the game was a small niche space sim that Roberts thought fans would be interested in, it was going to be barely bigger than the already playable Arena Commander module. After the kickstarter ended is where it really started to take off and it brought in big money. Roberts had a post on the forums and a video and asked for community feedback on whether the game should have more than just Arena Commander type play, they decided it would be much bigger and that in turn takes more time. This has been said over and over, the original planed launch from the kickstarter were plans for a much smaller game.
So was Elite Dangerous... which we probably don't want to compare with Star Citizen side by side now because it is making Star Citizen's progress looks really embarassing. Elite is already going to release planetary landing in the next few months and Star Citizen doesn't even have a functional game yet.
Don't think scope is a good enough excuse imo.
Interesting also that DS didn't attack Elite Dangerous, or No Man's Sky, only Star Citizen. That man might be a troll but his trolling might not necessarily be incorrect.
You're right you can't compare the two, Elite Dangerous has been being worked on since before 2011, it has had much more time to get where it's at. Kickstarter for Star citizen didn't end till 2012, Elite Dangerous already had well over a year of work done before Star Citizen was even counted in. And being someone who's played both Star Citizen modules and Elite Dangerous, I'm putting my money on Star Citizen.
Star citizen was in development a year before its kickstarter-
What was the budget of E:D again? the teamsize? the manhours already burned through (lets companre manhours to manhours) I bet SC has been in development for FAR MORE manhours which is how these things are actually calculated.
OH, no I dont think people should be able to just change ships daily- I think there should be a timer- Only CIG would attach a monetary penalty to the people who have funded every single thing they have from their jobs, to the stationary and toilet paper at the office(s). Only CIG would niclkle and dime those people whove spent thousands when a simple timer (change ships every 30/60/90 days only) when they are the ones who 'oversold' the ships in terms of the expectations they created. yes, its slimy ... They really must be hurting to take a risk of pissing off the cash cows over a few bucks.
That said, thats why I'm shining a big bright light on this and everything else. The adbots have had their turn . I only need to sow seeds of doubt- CIG needs by some estimations another 1/3rd more than the money they've already collected and heaven only knows how much more time-With still no guarantee of anything but empty promises and a moving goal post . CIGs got a rough job where as doubt is starting to sow itself.
There's no end in sight-
-OH, you really should buy another ship or three- looks like they need the money.
EDIT- hear about the death threat against Derek Smart? People get crazy when they have thousands invested, huh? especially already crazy people who lose thousands.. Just seems some are mad at the wrong person. DS has put his ass on the line, researched and outlined this fiasco quite meticulously imho, faced ridicule and what essentially was a paid hate campaign against him- For daring to ask questions that no public person had the balls to ask and demand some much needed accountability.For taking up for the consumer and what is right (regardless of what some claim his motives are) he gets ad bot attacks and death threats. Gaming History however will take a different view once hes been vindicated. others like myself will do battle with the adbots as its the least we can do-Black Knights really do matter lol.
So what is this? 12th or 11th most expensive game in history already? Its going to be a hell of a ride now that we are nearing the point where words and promises are no longer sufficient. Time to pay the piper or some such thing =P
You are the reason game companies stopped collaborating with players on design, if you can't take your opinions out of it and actually see both sides of a decision you won't get anywhere. Really it's time to get over this entitled attitude of "we gave them money, we own them". They are a business and they need to survive just like everyone else. I gave them money and have no problems with what they are doing. There are lots of people who feel the same way. There will always be kids that don't understand how the world works yet, complaining about something. This thread proves that.
Dumb ass- the one who TAKES the money is the entitled one.
When someone gets welfare is the Government "ENTITLED" for telling them they cant use the food stamps for booze?
"damn guv'ment feels so entitled not lettin me buy a 40 oz with the money they gave me"lol
When I take a bank loan is the bank ENTITLED to make sure I use the money for what I said I was using it for.
If I give my child $20 to go to the movies am I ENTITLED for not letting him use that money to see certain things.
Only an idiot calls someone entitled for wanting accountability . the Dev seems to feel ENTITLED to take money with no strings attached, lie , never be called out, change terms of service, etc....
Thing is, I dont even think you're an adbot- I think you really dont understand what entitlement means =/
The begger (in this case CIG) is acting entitled for wanting 100 million plus with no accountability. thats entitlement dude, not the guy asking" whats the money I gave being used for?"
I think the only one who clearly has their time line skewed is you no offense, but it has been already beat to death in threads here on this forum, I'll say it again one more time. The original scope of the game was a small niche space sim that Roberts thought fans would be interested in, it was going to be barely bigger than the already playable Arena Commander module. After the kickstarter ended is where it really started to take off and it brought in big money. Roberts had a post on the forums and a video and asked for community feedback on whether the game should have more than just Arena Commander type play, they decided it would be much bigger and that in turn takes more time. This has been said over and over, the original planed launch from the kickstarter were plans for a much smaller game.
So was Elite Dangerous... which we probably don't want to compare with Star Citizen side by side now because it is making Star Citizen's progress looks really embarassing. Elite is already going to release planetary landing in the next few months and Star Citizen doesn't even have a functional game yet.
Don't think scope is a good enough excuse imo.
Interesting also that DS didn't attack Elite Dangerous, or No Man's Sky, only Star Citizen. That man might be a troll but his trolling might not necessarily be incorrect.
You're right you can't compare the two, Elite Dangerous has been being worked on since before 2011, it has had much more time to get where it's at. Kickstarter for Star citizen didn't end till 2012, Elite Dangerous already had well over a year of work done before Star Citizen was even counted in. And being someone who's played both Star Citizen modules and Elite Dangerous, I'm putting my money on Star Citizen.
Star citizen was in development a year before its kickstarter-
What was the budget of E:D again? the teamsize? the manhours already burned through (lets companre manhours to manhours) I bet SC has been in development for FAR MORE manhours which is how these things are actually calculated.
OH, no I dont think people should be able to just change ships daily- I think there should be a timer- Only CIG would attach a monetary penalty to the people who have funded every single thing they have from their jobs, to the stationary and toilet paper at the office(s). Only CIG would niclkle and dime those people whove spent thousands when a simple timer (change ships every 30/60/90 days only) when they are the ones who 'oversold' the ships in terms of the expectations they created. yes, its slimy ... They really must be hurting to take a risk of pissing off the cash cows over a few bucks.
That said, thats why I'm shining a big bright light on this and everything else. The adbots have had their turn . I only need to sow seeds of doubt- CIG needs by some estimations another 1/3rd more than the money they've already collected and heaven only knows how much more time-With still no guarantee of anything but empty promises and a moving goal post . CIGs got a rough job where as doubt is starting to sow itself.
There's no end in sight-
-OH, you really should buy another ship or three- looks like they need the money.
EDIT- hear about the death threat against Derek Smart? People get crazy when they have thousands invested, huh? especially already crazy people who lose thousands.. Just seems some are mad at the wrong person. DS has put his ass on the line, researched and outlined this fiasco quite meticulously imho, faced ridicule and what essentially was a paid hate campaign against him- For daring to ask questions that no public person had the balls to ask and demand some much needed accountability.For taking up for the consumer and what is right (regardless of what some claim his motives are) he gets ad bot attacks and death threats. Gaming History however will take a different view once hes been vindicated. others like myself will do battle with the adbots as its the least we can do-Black Knights really do matter lol.
So what is this? 12th or 11th most expensive game in history already? Its going to be a hell of a ride now that we are nearing the point where words and promises are no longer sufficient. Time to pay the piper or some such thing =P
You are the reason game companies stopped collaborating with players on design, if you can't take your opinions out of it and actually see both sides of a decision you won't get anywhere. Really it's time to get over this entitled attitude of "we gave them money, we own them". They are a business and they need to survive just like everyone else. I gave them money and have no problems with what they are doing. There are lots of people who feel the same way. There will always be kids that don't understand how the world works yet, complaining about something. This thread proves that.
Dumb ass- the one who TAKES the money is the entitled one.
When someone gets welfare is the Government "ENTITLED" for telling them they cant use the food stamps for booze?
"damn guv'ment feels so entitled not lettin me buy a 40 oz with the money they gave me"lol
When I take a bank loan is the bank ENTITLED to make sure I use the money for what I said I was using it for.
If I give my child $20 to go to the movies am I ENTITLED for not letting him use that money to see certain things.
Only an idiot calls someone entitled for wanting accountability . the Dev seems to feel ENTITLED to take money with no strings attached, lie , never be called out, change terms of service, etc....
Thing is, I dont even think you're an adbot- I think you really dont understand what entitlement means =/
The begger (in this case CIG) is acting entitled for wanting 100 million plus with no accountability. thats entitlement dude, not the guy asking" whats the money I gave being used for?"
So why do you feel entitled to tell Chris Roberts how he spends his money after you give it to him, if you don't expect it to be done in other areas of life. Do you even read the nonsense you type? Entitlement means one believes they deserve special treatment, or privileges because of their position. Such as you believing you are deserving of some sort of insight on the spending of the company simply because of money given on terms of a patron status. Key thing here is patron, this means you don't own shit, you don't deserve anything but a game you can play.
Maybe next time you'll have learned your lesson if you feel this strongly against giving people money. Sometimes it's not used how you want it to be, it doesn't mean the game won't thrive, or be good, even without your approval. You are also putting words in CIG's mouth they aren't forcing people to give them $100 million dollars, people do it all by themselves. If they aren't old enough to be making big boy decisions maybe they should have mommy handle their money.
hey, whats your feelings on the cancelled "meet the devs" ? isnt that paid for by subscribers above and beyond simply backing the project?
How long do you reckon this 'retooling' of the video equipment might take?
If they take a break from "Meet the devs" for a while, i am personally ok with that (and yes, i say that as a subscriber who is paying for it).
There is a lot of other stuff on the homepage and the subscriber info channels (e.g. Jump Point magazine) to get my weekly intake of SC information. Not to mention all the Youtubers out there with their own SC channels and the additional info from gaming websites.
hey, whats your feelings on the cancelled "meet the devs" ? isnt that paid for by subscribers above and beyond simply backing the project?
How long do you reckon this 'retooling' of the video equipment might take?
If they take a break from "Meet the devs" for a while, i am personally ok with that (and yes, i say that as a subscriber who is paying for it).
There is a lot of other stuff on the homepage and the subscriber info channels (e.g. Jump Point magazine) to get my weekly intake of SC information. Not to mention all the Youtubers out there with their own SC channels and the additional info from gaming websites.
"How long ..." ? I have no idea.
Have fun
Thanks for the answer- I jumped the gun and asked it on another thread as well-
Do you think its spin about 'retooling the video equipment" ? And arent there people paying for this via subscription above and beyond mere backing?
First off, i never gave CR a dime and never would have since I knew this was a pipedream from the start.
I want accountability when anyone takes money from the public- Not to tell them how to spend it- but to be transparent about how they spend it.
We're not talking about making any decisions or being made privy to top secret r and D projects.
Simple accountability to the same standard as either a non profit or a traded company. When you come , hat in hand, asking money for X I would like assurances and openess as to where that money is going- Not micromanagment.
I'm not sure we are on the same page as far as whats being asked for.You maybe misunderstand my intentions since I dont want to tell anyone how to spend their money but rather be given an accounting to make sure the money was spent for the purpose it was asked for.
Even if everything here is on the up and up- the next major project may be a total scam. No accountability is a recipe for disaster.
The gaming industry is one of the shadiest industries out there right now, predatory and with little oversight. crowdfunding has the potential to make this already dirty business even worse. We need to police our hobby.
Do you think its spin about 'retooling the video equipment" ? And arent there people paying for this via subscription above and beyond mere backing?
I personally think they have to internally reassign someone to replace James Pugh as moderator of this shows. That may include a new format (which may require a new room and/or new equipment).
Do you think its spin about 'retooling the video equipment" ? And arent there people paying for this via subscription above and beyond mere backing?
I personally think they have to internally reassign someone to replace James Pugh as moderator of this shows. That may include a new format (which may require a new room and/or new equipment).
I think the same about Pugh, just think that they should have actually said that- the whole point about being different than those evil and greedy corporate idea killers (with their budgets and timelines and such...) made me hopeful we would get away from corporate style double speak and spin.
Seems we still are at the mercy of corporate spin.
EDIT- See its shit like this that bothers me a whole lot. How stupid do they really thinlk we are? I think almost everyone knows the real reason this was cancelled (I'm really surprised you admitted it so props for being honest) and yet they still essentially lied (maybe they really are going to 'retool the video equipment' but we all know thats not why this was cancelled)
It makes things look worse than just "hey, james Pugh was running this thing and we need some time to find someone else" or something that was at least fairly legit. Lying when everyone pretty well knows it is worse than whatever the truth happens to be.
First off, i never gave CR a dime and never would have since I knew this was a pipedream from the start.
I want accountability when anyone takes money from the public- Not to tell them how to spend it- but to be transparent about how they spend it.
We're not talking about making any decisions or being made privy to top secret r and D projects.
Simple accountability to the same standard as either a non profit or a traded company. When you come , hat in hand, asking money for X I would like assurances and openess as to where that money is going- Not micromanagment.
I'm not sure we are on the same page as far as whats being asked for.You maybe misunderstand my intentions since I dont want to tell anyone how to spend their money but rather be given an accounting to make sure the money was spent for the purpose it was asked for.
Even if everything here is on the up and up- the next major project may be a total scam. No accountability is a recipe for disaster.
The gaming industry is one of the shadiest industries out there right now, predatory and with little oversight. crowdfunding has the potential to make this already dirty business even worse. We need to police our hobby.
There's you first problem, you have no involvement in this project, so you can sit here and talk about ad bots, but in reality all you are is a shill for a position of argument you don't even seem to understand. The first flaw of your accountability argument is the hearsay, and assumptions. You are saying CIG "took" money, this implies coercion, no one at CIG that I'm aware of has held a gun to any ones head saying they must pay.
People are paying from their own freewill, now if they are uneducated, they might think they are deserving of more than they are really getting for their money, but that's subjective as personal value isn't the same for everyone. In the end it's money that is supposed to be given on the premise that you appreciate an idea, and want to do what you can to help it become real.
It's also quite funny you bring up non profit organizations or traded companies, non profits are essentially accountable to no one, lots of senior management of non profit organizations take home a bigger paycheck than professional sports players. They just use methods that work around the laws they need abide by. I suggest you start making accountability more vocal on issues that really matter in the world, instead of your crusade against a game you won't be playing.
First off, i never gave CR a dime and never would have since I knew this was a pipedream from the start.
I want accountability when anyone takes money from the public- Not to tell them how to spend it- but to be transparent about how they spend it.
We're not talking about making any decisions or being made privy to top secret r and D projects.
Simple accountability to the same standard as either a non profit or a traded company. When you come , hat in hand, asking money for X I would like assurances and openess as to where that money is going- Not micromanagment.
I'm not sure we are on the same page as far as whats being asked for.You maybe misunderstand my intentions since I dont want to tell anyone how to spend their money but rather be given an accounting to make sure the money was spent for the purpose it was asked for.
Even if everything here is on the up and up- the next major project may be a total scam. No accountability is a recipe for disaster.
The gaming industry is one of the shadiest industries out there right now, predatory and with little oversight. crowdfunding has the potential to make this already dirty business even worse. We need to police our hobby.
There's you first problem, you have no involvement in this project, so you can sit here and talk about ad bots, but in reality all you are is a shill for a position of argument you don't even seem to understand. The first flaw of your accountability argument is the hearsay, and assumptions. You are saying CIG "took" money, this implies coercion, no one at CIG that I'm aware of has held a gun to any ones head saying they must pay.
People are paying from their own freewill, now if they are uneducated, they might think they are deserving of more than they are really getting for their money, but that's subjective as personal value isn't the same for everyone. In the end it's money that is supposed to be given on the premise that you appreciate an idea, and want to do what you can to help it become real.
It's also quite funny you bring up non profit organizations or traded companies, non profits are essentially accountable to no one, lots of senior management of non profit organizations take home a bigger paycheck than professional sports players. They just use methods that work around the laws they need abide by. I suggest you start making accountability more vocal on issues that really matter in the world, instead of your crusade against a game you won't be playing.
You and I disagree on most of this but one point we totally agree on-
Non profits and the insane salaries... however, the reason we know aboyut these (Like the $35K/month from the red cross ) is because of accountability. if there was no accountability, you wouldnt know about those insane salaries.
When I go shopping around christmas and people are pimping for the Red Cross (give us your change) I used to give it because I had no idea that Millions were spent each month on the top 10-15 people's salaries alone (not to mention high end luxury cars and such)- When I actually studied non profits I was seriously struck dumb- Its terrible- but that with accountability, how bad is it when there is none? Thanks to accountability I can correctly decide who to donate to where my money does the most good.
the same should apply here.
If the red cross who gives full public accounting is this shady, what about a crowdfunded company that has nobody to answer to and can keep all of its finances a secret while saying anything to the public?
This isnt a Mom and pop business e are talking about- this is 100 million dollar megalith. More than the GDP of many nations . All of this as taken from the public with a certain understanding .
There would be no 'unfounded" rumors if e had accountability. if CR wanted to fly everywhere on a private jet and give himself a $13K month house paid for from the company and a luxury car- While claiming to 'spend all money on development" people have a right to that information. Impossible to make good decisions with money if you lack all information needed in a culture where the one begging can lie and never be held accountable. can say anything and never have to prove things one way or the other. Can change terms of service agreements at a whim-
I dont deny him the right to pay himself Millions and hire his wife for millions and buy his groceries with the company credit card (I'm not saying he does this ,im making a point) but these things need to be known. Then let the backers decide. he said "Only using money for development" but can that be proven? are you an idiot for believing CR? Anyone can 'say" anything and e need more than someones word.
I have every right- This is an issue that effects us all although we disagree.
First off, i never gave CR a dime and never would have since I knew this was a pipedream from the start.
I want accountability when anyone takes money from the public- Not to tell them how to spend it- but to be transparent about how they spend it.
We're not talking about making any decisions or being made privy to top secret r and D projects.
Simple accountability to the same standard as either a non profit or a traded company. When you come , hat in hand, asking money for X I would like assurances and openess as to where that money is going- Not micromanagment.
I'm not sure we are on the same page as far as whats being asked for.You maybe misunderstand my intentions since I dont want to tell anyone how to spend their money but rather be given an accounting to make sure the money was spent for the purpose it was asked for.
Even if everything here is on the up and up- the next major project may be a total scam. No accountability is a recipe for disaster.
The gaming industry is one of the shadiest industries out there right now, predatory and with little oversight. crowdfunding has the potential to make this already dirty business even worse. We need to police our hobby.
There's you first problem, you have no involvement in this project, so you can sit here and talk about ad bots, but in reality all you are is a shill for a position of argument you don't even seem to understand. The first flaw of your accountability argument is the hearsay, and assumptions. You are saying CIG "took" money, this implies coercion, no one at CIG that I'm aware of has held a gun to any ones head saying they must pay.
People are paying from their own freewill, now if they are uneducated, they might think they are deserving of more than they are really getting for their money, but that's subjective as personal value isn't the same for everyone. In the end it's money that is supposed to be given on the premise that you appreciate an idea, and want to do what you can to help it become real.
It's also quite funny you bring up non profit organizations or traded companies, non profits are essentially accountable to no one, lots of senior management of non profit organizations take home a bigger paycheck than professional sports players. They just use methods that work around the laws they need abide by. I suggest you start making accountability more vocal on issues that really matter in the world, instead of your crusade against a game you won't be playing.
You and I disagree on most of this but one point we totally agree on-
Non profits and the insane salaries... however, the reason we know aboyut these (Like the $35K/month from the red cross ) is because of accountability. if there was no accountability, you wouldnt know about those insane salaries.
When I go shopping around christmas and people are pimping for the Red Cross (give us your change) I used to give it because I had no idea that Millions were spent each month on the top 10-15 people's salaries alone (not to mention high end luxury cars and such)- When I actually studied non profits I was seriously struck dumb- Its terrible- but that with accountability, how bad is it when there is none? Thanks to accountability I can correctly decide who to donate to where my money does the most good.
the same should apply here.
If the red cross who gives full public accounting is this shady, what about a crowdfunded company that has nobody to answer to and can keep all of its fi nances a secret hile saying anything to the public?
There would be no 'unfounded" rumors if e had accountability. if CR wanted to fly everywhere on a private jet and give himself a $13K month house paid for from the company and a luxury car- While claiming to 'spend all money on development" people have a right to that information. Impossible to make good decisions with money if you lack all information needed in a culture where the one begging can lie and never be held accountable. can say anything and never have to prove things one way or the other. To change terms of service agreements at a whim-
I have every right- This is an issue that effects us all although we disagree.
That's not being held accountable, see you are talking about education, people are educated on the salaries usually by independent auditors doing research into where the money goes after people willing donate it. That being said many non profit organizations aren't even required to have these audits, and many don't. The thing is if there were accountability there, those salaries wouldn't be so inflated, the fact they are inflated shows there's no one holding them accountable to the standards of which they are attempting to set.
The same story works here, now if a 3rd party company wants to try and start tracking money movements of Kicstarter companies to report to the would be patrons where it ends up, your point would be valid. Maybe you should start that company, this way informed patrons, like you described yourself after you learned about Red Cross, can make the choice on whether or not they want to give their money away. It still won't change where the money goes though. Do you see my point here?
1) easier to type and its rounded up 2) I think we all know they'll hit 100 Million- At the very least its an assumption i'm comfortable with saying because even if im off it wont be by much. I think we'll see a hell of a lot higher than 100 mil before this is all said and done and ill keep saying 100Mil anyhow .
I was saying 'nearing 100 Million' and then I figured 'fuck it' close enough. if I have $9.00 in my wallet I say $10 and im still broke. =/
First off, i never gave CR a dime and never would have since I knew this was a pipedream from the start.
I want accountability when anyone takes money from the public- Not to tell them how to spend it- but to be transparent about how they spend it.
We're not talking about making any decisions or being made privy to top secret r and D projects.
Simple accountability to the same standard as either a non profit or a traded company. When you come , hat in hand, asking money for X I would like assurances and openess as to where that money is going- Not micromanagment.
I'm not sure we are on the same page as far as whats being asked for.You maybe misunderstand my intentions since I dont want to tell anyone how to spend their money but rather be given an accounting to make sure the money was spent for the purpose it was asked for.
Even if everything here is on the up and up- the next major project may be a total scam. No accountability is a recipe for disaster.
The gaming industry is one of the shadiest industries out there right now, predatory and with little oversight. crowdfunding has the potential to make this already dirty business even worse. We need to police our hobby.
There's you first problem, you have no involvement in this project, so you can sit here and talk about ad bots, but in reality all you are is a shill for a position of argument you don't even seem to understand. The first flaw of your accountability argument is the hearsay, and assumptions. You are saying CIG "took" money, this implies coercion, no one at CIG that I'm aware of has held a gun to any ones head saying they must pay.
People are paying from their own freewill, now if they are uneducated, they might think they are deserving of more than they are really getting for their money, but that's subjective as personal value isn't the same for everyone. In the end it's money that is supposed to be given on the premise that you appreciate an idea, and want to do what you can to help it become real.
It's also quite funny you bring up non profit organizations or traded companies, non profits are essentially accountable to no one, lots of senior management of non profit organizations take home a bigger paycheck than professional sports players. They just use methods that work around the laws they need abide by. I suggest you start making accountability more vocal on issues that really matter in the world, instead of your crusade against a game you won't be playing.
You and I disagree on most of this but one point we totally agree on-
Non profits and the insane salaries... however, the reason we know aboyut these (Like the $35K/month from the red cross ) is because of accountability. if there was no accountability, you wouldnt know about those insane salaries.
When I go shopping around christmas and people are pimping for the Red Cross (give us your change) I used to give it because I had no idea that Millions were spent each month on the top 10-15 people's salaries alone (not to mention high end luxury cars and such)- When I actually studied non profits I was seriously struck dumb- Its terrible- but that with accountability, how bad is it when there is none? Thanks to accountability I can correctly decide who to donate to where my money does the most good.
the same should apply here.
If the red cross who gives full public accounting is this shady, what about a crowdfunded company that has nobody to answer to and can keep all of its fi nances a secret hile saying anything to the public?
There would be no 'unfounded" rumors if e had accountability. if CR wanted to fly everywhere on a private jet and give himself a $13K month house paid for from the company and a luxury car- While claiming to 'spend all money on development" people have a right to that information. Impossible to make good decisions with money if you lack all information needed in a culture where the one begging can lie and never be held accountable. can say anything and never have to prove things one way or the other. To change terms of service agreements at a whim-
I have every right- This is an issue that effects us all although we disagree.
That's not being held accountable, see you are talking about education, people are educated on the salaries usually by independent auditors doing research into where the money goes after people willing donate it. That being said many non profit organizations aren't even required to have these audits, and many don't. The thing is if there were accountability there, those salaries wouldn't be so inflated, the fact they are inflated shows there's no one holding them accountable to the standards of which they are attempting to set.
The same story works here, now if a 3rd party company wants to try and start tracking money movements of Kicstarter companies to report to the would be patrons where it ends up, your point would be valid. Maybe you should start that company, this way informed patrons, like you described yourself after you learned about Red Cross, can make the choice on whether or not they want to give their money away. It still won't change where the money goes though. Do you see my point here?
If I started a company like that i'd be in real trouble since math isnt my stong suit.
In order to have an independent audit they have to agree to open the books - Its done with their permission and not something that can be done without internal records.
Derek Smart offered to pay for an audit.
This would be fine with me but imho we dont even need to go quite to that extent but thats an entirely separate conversation. For ease of conversation- yes, an audit is what i would like to see for accountability.
And no, it wouldnt change a thing with spending other than the fact they wont be able to spin quite so much. It'll keep them honest at least to a point and will give the information to those who might want to become involved. If i could could see that most of the money was really being used wisely (even with high salaries) I might be inclined to buy a $1000 ship- Not really, but for arguments sake.
seeing a company being ise ith its money would give me confidence to back a project. Seeing someone jet setting all over the world will keep me away.
And if it does fail in epic fashion there will be know 'we tried and ran out of money but did our best" when you see they really invested half the money in personal mutual funds - So they at least have to face backlash and questions are answered.
First off, i never gave CR a dime and never would have since I knew this was a pipedream from the start.
I want accountability when anyone takes money from the public- Not to tell them how to spend it- but to be transparent about how they spend it.
We're not talking about making any decisions or being made privy to top secret r and D projects.
Simple accountability to the same standard as either a non profit or a traded company. When you come , hat in hand, asking money for X I would like assurances and openess as to where that money is going- Not micromanagment.
I'm not sure we are on the same page as far as whats being asked for.You maybe misunderstand my intentions since I dont want to tell anyone how to spend their money but rather be given an accounting to make sure the money was spent for the purpose it was asked for.
Even if everything here is on the up and up- the next major project may be a total scam. No accountability is a recipe for disaster.
The gaming industry is one of the shadiest industries out there right now, predatory and with little oversight. crowdfunding has the potential to make this already dirty business even worse. We need to police our hobby.
There's you first problem, you have no involvement in this project, so you can sit here and talk about ad bots, but in reality all you are is a shill for a position of argument you don't even seem to understand. The first flaw of your accountability argument is the hearsay, and assumptions. You are saying CIG "took" money, this implies coercion, no one at CIG that I'm aware of has held a gun to any ones head saying they must pay.
People are paying from their own freewill, now if they are uneducated, they might think they are deserving of more than they are really getting for their money, but that's subjective as personal value isn't the same for everyone. In the end it's money that is supposed to be given on the premise that you appreciate an idea, and want to do what you can to help it become real.
It's also quite funny you bring up non profit organizations or traded companies, non profits are essentially accountable to no one, lots of senior management of non profit organizations take home a bigger paycheck than professional sports players. They just use methods that work around the laws they need abide by. I suggest you start making accountability more vocal on issues that really matter in the world, instead of your crusade against a game you won't be playing.
You and I disagree on most of this but one point we totally agree on-
Non profits and the insane salaries... however, the reason we know aboyut these (Like the $35K/month from the red cross ) is because of accountability. if there was no accountability, you wouldnt know about those insane salaries.
When I go shopping around christmas and people are pimping for the Red Cross (give us your change) I used to give it because I had no idea that Millions were spent each month on the top 10-15 people's salaries alone (not to mention high end luxury cars and such)- When I actually studied non profits I was seriously struck dumb- Its terrible- but that with accountability, how bad is it when there is none? Thanks to accountability I can correctly decide who to donate to where my money does the most good.
the same should apply here.
If the red cross who gives full public accounting is this shady, what about a crowdfunded company that has nobody to answer to and can keep all of its fi nances a secret hile saying anything to the public?
There would be no 'unfounded" rumors if e had accountability. if CR wanted to fly everywhere on a private jet and give himself a $13K month house paid for from the company and a luxury car- While claiming to 'spend all money on development" people have a right to that information. Impossible to make good decisions with money if you lack all information needed in a culture where the one begging can lie and never be held accountable. can say anything and never have to prove things one way or the other. To change terms of service agreements at a whim-
I have every right- This is an issue that effects us all although we disagree.
That's not being held accountable, see you are talking about education, people are educated on the salaries usually by independent auditors doing research into where the money goes after people willing donate it. That being said many non profit organizations aren't even required to have these audits, and many don't. The thing is if there were accountability there, those salaries wouldn't be so inflated, the fact they are inflated shows there's no one holding them accountable to the standards of which they are attempting to set.
The same story works here, now if a 3rd party company wants to try and start tracking money movements of Kicstarter companies to report to the would be patrons where it ends up, your point would be valid. Maybe you should start that company, this way informed patrons, like you described yourself after you learned about Red Cross, can make the choice on whether or not they want to give their money away. It still won't change where the money goes though. Do you see my point here?
If I started a company like that i'd be in real trouble since math isnt my stong suit.
In order to have an independent audit they have to agree to open the books - Its done with their permission and not something that can be done without internal records.
Derek Smart offered to pay for an audit.
This would be fine with me but imho we dont even need to go quite to that extent but thats an entirely separate conversation. For ease of conversation- yes, an audit is what i would like to see for accountability.
And no, it wouldnt change a thing with spending other than the fact they wont be able to spin quite so much. It'll keep them honest at least to a point and will give the information to those who might want to become involved. If i could could see that most of the money was really being used wisely (even with high salaries) I might be inclined to buy a $1000 ship- Not really, but for arguments sake.
seeing a company being ise ith its money would give me confidence to back a project. Seeing someone jet setting all over the world will keep me away.
And if it does fail in epic fashion there will be know 'we tried and ran out of money but did our best" when you see they really invested half the money in personal mutual funds - So they at least have to face backlash and questions are answered.
I would counter (without reading everything) that 40% is the result of tips but that still leaves 60% that an audit catches.
Also, i'm less worried about fraud as I am just the basic information. fraud takes things into the realm of legalities- Its not illegal to pay yourself $5 million/year and thats more what i'm wanting to know. The basics. Hows the money being used.
The point is, we cannot have the wild west with no rules, no law, no accountability. Eventually the government(s) will step in and regulate crowfunding to death. if SC fails I see this happening.
The answer (if not audits and open books) can be debated and argued and decided by people much smarter than me and I dont expect itll be a perfect answer. But something...
I would counter (without reading everything) that 40% is the result of tips but that still leaves 60% that an audit catches.
Also, i'm less worried about fraud as I am just the basic information. fraud takes things into the realm of legalities- Its not illegal to pay yourself $5 million/year and thats more what i'm wanting to know. The basics. Hows the money being used.
The point is, we cannot have the wild west with no rules, no law, no accountability. Eventually the government(s) will step in and regulate crowfunding to death. if SC fails I see this happening.
The answer (if not audits and open books) can be debated and argued and decided by people much smarter than me and I dont expect itll be a perfect answer. But something...
The reality is actually the complete opposite, more fraud is found via tips and inside company sources than from auditing. Auditors have to rely on the honesty of the financial statements they are looking at, if they are doctored or dishonest about their fiance status no fraud will be found. This is how large non profits get away with much more questionable things than what Red Cross has on a daily basis. Like how so much of that money from people pouring ice water on themselves, ended up at companies like Mercedes Benz.
What you're looking for doesn't exist, and many people would say it shouldn't, but that's another discussion, like how far do we go in saying companies can't use money for development, and who are we to say a business meeting with a meal involved isn't part of said development? It is in other lines of business, why not here?
An audit would only tell us what we already know, they have used the money to run the company. I'm sure that's everything from business meals to airfare just like every other company. Nothing I'm salty about, maybe my ship purchase bought a cpu to be used in a dev pc, maybe it bought some production manager breakfast while they talked about business. I don't really care, all I know is I wanted to give some cash to a project I thought looked great, knowing I'll get something in return whatever it may be, and that's what kickstarter is supposed to be for.
I'm not talking about computers and business expenses. Im talking about salaries and conflicts of interest.
If they cook the books to hide things from an auditor that takes things into a whole new realm so the fact they could do this doesnt mean we should just not not hold them to any standard.
Thats like saying "Well, they could lie anyhow so lets just not ever ask questions"
-This is a point we'll never agree upon. I could lie on a bank loan and probably get away with it but if im caught im a criminal so its better to tell the truth. banks dont say 'well, you could potentially lie so we wont even ask your financial information"
Thats my take. beyond that, this has seriously been a pretty awesome conversation (one of the better ive had here) and I would like to discuss this and other ideas about what could be done - Ive gtg but if I start a thread about this will you participate? itll be later this evening and ill send you a link.
We probably wont agree but the discussion itself would be a good one, I think.
Comments
What was the budget of E:D again? the teamsize? the manhours already burned through (lets companre manhours to manhours) I bet SC has been in development for FAR MORE manhours which is how these things are actually calculated.
OH, no I dont think people should be able to just change ships daily- I think there should be a timer- Only CIG would attach a monetary penalty to the people who have funded every single thing they have from their jobs, to the stationary and toilet paper at the office(s). Only CIG would niclkle and dime those people whove spent thousands when a simple timer (change ships every 30/60/90 days only) when they are the ones who 'oversold' the ships in terms of the expectations they created. yes, its slimy ... They really must be hurting to take a risk of pissing off the cash cows over a few bucks.
That said, thats why I'm shining a big bright light on this and everything else. The adbots have had their turn . I only need to sow seeds of doubt- CIG needs by some estimations another 1/3rd more than the money they've already collected and heaven only knows how much more time-With still no guarantee of anything but empty promises and a moving goal post . CIGs got a rough job where as doubt is starting to sow itself.
There's no end in sight-
-OH, you really should buy another ship or three- looks like they need the money.
EDIT- hear about the death threat against Derek Smart? People get crazy when they have thousands invested, huh? especially already crazy people who lose thousands.. Just seems some are mad at the wrong person.
DS has put his ass on the line, researched and outlined this fiasco quite meticulously imho, faced ridicule and what essentially was a paid hate campaign against him- For daring to ask questions that no public person had the balls to ask and demand some much needed accountability.For taking up for the consumer and what is right (regardless of what some claim his motives are) he gets ad bot attacks and death threats.
Gaming History however will take a different view once hes been vindicated. others like myself will do battle with the adbots as its the least we can do-Black Knights really do matter lol.
So what is this? 12th or 11th most expensive game in history already? Its going to be a hell of a ride now that we are nearing the point where words and promises are no longer sufficient. Time to pay the piper or some such thing =P
(Status 29 SEP 2015):
there is no fee for downsizing ships.
there is no time-counter for ship swapping.
So far nothing has officially been announced.
And no, one comment by a community manager about things they think about is not an official announcement.
Have fun
"There will be a fee on downgrades. Basically, it's necessary to reduce the abuse of the system: people switching willy nilly between whatever ships they want to fly on this day and causing unnecessary database schmeg.
Schmeg. It's what's unnecessary for databases.
I couldn't think of the right word here."
can you understand why someone would think this was being implemented? by saying "THERE WILL BE..." means "THERE WILL BE" when it comes from an official rep except in Cigs world where they can change things like a "terms of service" and say 'THERE WILL BE..." and then change their mind.
How many times they change the TOS? 122 additions and 119 subtractions or some crazy shit already lolz. So yeah, Cig saying "THERE WILL BE" means really nothing.
That said I trust you and your info on this since you are a whole hell of a lot closer to the project than a mere community manager, amirite?
Morning btw- And happy Tuesday. Got your smartphone? Every day could get interesting from this point forward and we could have lots to talk about .
have Fun!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edit: I really don't want to give Derek Smart any more name drops than necessary, the man is scum, he sees things he wants, and he tries to take them using bully tactics and fallacy arguments. He has no logic, he's driven by greed. Any death threats against him are probably overreactions, but seeing how he's constantly trying to ruin peoples lives, for his own benefit, I can't say I'm surprised. I mean seriously it's no mystery why people dislike him, he's even been voted number 2 for gamings worst people on other forums. https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Derek_Smart
When someone gets welfare is the Government "ENTITLED" for telling them they cant use the food stamps for booze?
"damn guv'ment feels so entitled not lettin me buy a 40 oz with the money they gave me"lol
When I take a bank loan is the bank ENTITLED to make sure I use the money for what I said I was using it for.
If I give my child $20 to go to the movies am I ENTITLED for not letting him use that money to see certain things.
Only an idiot calls someone entitled for wanting accountability . the Dev seems to feel ENTITLED to take money with no strings attached, lie , never be called out, change terms of service, etc....
Thing is, I dont even think you're an adbot- I think you really dont understand what entitlement means =/
The begger (in this case CIG) is acting entitled for wanting 100 million plus with no accountability. thats entitlement dude, not the guy asking" whats the money I gave being used for?"
Have fun
hey, whats your feelings on the cancelled "meet the devs" ? isnt that paid for by subscribers above and beyond simply backing the project?
How long do you reckon this 'retooling' of the video equipment might take?
Maybe next time you'll have learned your lesson if you feel this strongly against giving people money. Sometimes it's not used how you want it to be, it doesn't mean the game won't thrive, or be good, even without your approval. You are also putting words in CIG's mouth they aren't forcing people to give them $100 million dollars, people do it all by themselves. If they aren't old enough to be making big boy decisions maybe they should have mommy handle their money.
There is a lot of other stuff on the homepage and the subscriber info channels (e.g. Jump Point magazine) to get my weekly intake of SC information. Not to mention all the Youtubers out there with their own SC channels and the additional info from gaming websites.
"How long ..." ? I have no idea.
Have fun
Do you think its spin about 'retooling the video equipment" ? And arent there people paying for this via subscription above and beyond mere backing?
First off, i never gave CR a dime and never would have since I knew this was a pipedream from the start.
I want accountability when anyone takes money from the public- Not to tell them how to spend it- but to be transparent about how they spend it.
We're not talking about making any decisions or being made privy to top secret r and D projects.
Simple accountability to the same standard as either a non profit or a traded company. When you come , hat in hand, asking money for X I would like assurances and openess as to where that money is going- Not micromanagment.
I'm not sure we are on the same page as far as whats being asked for.You maybe misunderstand my intentions since I dont want to tell anyone how to spend their money but rather be given an accounting to make sure the money was spent for the purpose it was asked for.
Even if everything here is on the up and up- the next major project may be a total scam. No accountability is a recipe for disaster.
The gaming industry is one of the shadiest industries out there right now, predatory and with little oversight. crowdfunding has the potential to make this already dirty business even worse. We need to police our hobby.
W.r.t. to questions about subscriptions:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/faq/subscriptions
Have fun
Seems we still are at the mercy of corporate spin.
EDIT- See its shit like this that bothers me a whole lot. How stupid do they really thinlk we are? I think almost everyone knows the real reason this was cancelled (I'm really surprised you admitted it so props for being honest) and yet they still essentially lied (maybe they really are going to 'retool the video equipment' but we all know thats not why this was cancelled)
It makes things look worse than just "hey, james Pugh was running this thing and we need some time to find someone else" or something that was at least fairly legit. Lying when everyone pretty well knows it is worse than whatever the truth happens to be.
People are paying from their own freewill, now if they are uneducated, they might think they are deserving of more than they are really getting for their money, but that's subjective as personal value isn't the same for everyone. In the end it's money that is supposed to be given on the premise that you appreciate an idea, and want to do what you can to help it become real.
It's also quite funny you bring up non profit organizations or traded companies, non profits are essentially accountable to no one, lots of senior management of non profit organizations take home a bigger paycheck than professional sports players. They just use methods that work around the laws they need abide by. I suggest you start making accountability more vocal on issues that really matter in the world, instead of your crusade against a game you won't be playing.
Non profits and the insane salaries... however, the reason we know aboyut these (Like the $35K/month from the red cross ) is because of accountability. if there was no accountability, you wouldnt know about those insane salaries.
When I go shopping around christmas and people are pimping for the Red Cross (give us your change) I used to give it because I had no idea that Millions were spent each month on the top 10-15 people's salaries alone (not to mention high end luxury cars and such)- When I actually studied non profits I was seriously struck dumb- Its terrible- but that with accountability, how bad is it when there is none? Thanks to accountability I can correctly decide who to donate to where my money does the most good.
the same should apply here.
If the red cross who gives full public accounting is this shady, what about a crowdfunded company that has nobody to answer to and can keep all of its finances a secret while saying anything to the public?
This isnt a Mom and pop business e are talking about- this is 100 million dollar megalith. More than the GDP of many nations . All of this as taken from the public with a certain understanding .
There would be no 'unfounded" rumors if e had accountability. if CR wanted to fly everywhere on a private jet and give himself a $13K month house paid for from the company and a luxury car- While claiming to 'spend all money on development" people have a right to that information. Impossible to make good decisions with money if you lack all information needed in a culture where the one begging can lie and never be held accountable. can say anything and never have to prove things one way or the other. Can change terms of service agreements at a whim-
I dont deny him the right to pay himself Millions and hire his wife for millions and buy his groceries with the company credit card (I'm not saying he does this ,im making a point) but these things need to be known. Then let the backers decide. he said "Only using money for development" but can that be proven? are you an idiot for believing CR? Anyone can 'say" anything and e need more than someones word.
I have every right- This is an issue that effects us all although we disagree.
The same story works here, now if a 3rd party company wants to try and start tracking money movements of Kicstarter companies to report to the would be patrons where it ends up, your point would be valid. Maybe you should start that company, this way informed patrons, like you described yourself after you learned about Red Cross, can make the choice on whether or not they want to give their money away. It still won't change where the money goes though. Do you see my point here?
Edit: To go further though here's proof not even audits stop fraud from occurring within non profit charities. https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/nonprofit-audit-guide/myth-audits-uncover-fraud
As off 29 SEP 2015 its 89,343,123 $
Everyone can check the current funding level here:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
Have fun
1) easier to type and its rounded up
2) I think we all know they'll hit 100 Million- At the very least its an assumption i'm comfortable with saying because even if im off it wont be by much. I think we'll see a hell of a lot higher than 100 mil before this is all said and done and ill keep saying 100Mil anyhow .
I was saying 'nearing 100 Million' and then I figured 'fuck it' close enough. if I have $9.00 in my wallet I say $10 and im still broke. =/
In order to have an independent audit they have to agree to open the books - Its done with their permission and not something that can be done without internal records.
Derek Smart offered to pay for an audit.
This would be fine with me but imho we dont even need to go quite to that extent but thats an entirely separate conversation. For ease of conversation- yes, an audit is what i would like to see for accountability.
And no, it wouldnt change a thing with spending other than the fact they wont be able to spin quite so much. It'll keep them honest at least to a point and will give the information to those who might want to become involved. If i could could see that most of the money was really being used wisely (even with high salaries) I might be inclined to buy a $1000 ship- Not really, but for arguments sake.
seeing a company being ise ith its money would give me confidence to back a project. Seeing someone jet setting all over the world will keep me away.
And if it does fail in epic fashion there will be know 'we tried and ran out of money but did our best" when you see they really invested half the money in personal mutual funds - So they at least have to face backlash and questions are answered.
https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/nonprofit-audit-guide/myth-audits-uncover-fraud
I would counter (without reading everything) that 40% is the result of tips but that still leaves 60% that an audit catches.
Also, i'm less worried about fraud as I am just the basic information. fraud takes things into the realm of legalities- Its not illegal to pay yourself $5 million/year and thats more what i'm wanting to know. The basics. Hows the money being used.
The point is, we cannot have the wild west with no rules, no law, no accountability. Eventually the government(s) will step in and regulate crowfunding to death. if SC fails I see this happening.
The answer (if not audits and open books) can be debated and argued and decided by people much smarter than me and I dont expect itll be a perfect answer. But something...
What you're looking for doesn't exist, and many people would say it shouldn't, but that's another discussion, like how far do we go in saying companies can't use money for development, and who are we to say a business meeting with a meal involved isn't part of said development? It is in other lines of business, why not here?
An audit would only tell us what we already know, they have used the money to run the company. I'm sure that's everything from business meals to airfare just like every other company. Nothing I'm salty about, maybe my ship purchase bought a cpu to be used in a dev pc, maybe it bought some production manager breakfast while they talked about business. I don't really care, all I know is I wanted to give some cash to a project I thought looked great, knowing I'll get something in return whatever it may be, and that's what kickstarter is supposed to be for.
I'm not talking about computers and business expenses. Im talking about salaries and conflicts of interest.
If they cook the books to hide things from an auditor that takes things into a whole new realm so the fact they could do this doesnt mean we should just not not hold them to any standard.
Thats like saying "Well, they could lie anyhow so lets just not ever ask questions"
-This is a point we'll never agree upon. I could lie on a bank loan and probably get away with it but if im caught im a criminal so its better to tell the truth. banks dont say 'well, you could potentially lie so we wont even ask your financial information"
Thats my take. beyond that, this has seriously been a pretty awesome conversation (one of the better ive had here) and I would like to discuss this and other ideas about what could be done - Ive gtg but if I start a thread about this will you participate? itll be later this evening and ill send you a link.
We probably wont agree but the discussion itself would be a good one, I think.