EQs user interface is fairly horrid now. I'm not sure how they would think it's good to present new players with a bunch of windows that aren't organized in any way when you log in for the first time. The original EQ interface was better even though it cut off probably 60 to 70 percent of the screen with UI. Then there is the addition of quests in many zones, items dropping like candy, and old zones empty. Soloing is now easy and certain classes have become obsolete with mercs and teleports for everyone. Many zones don't even use the same graphics. Some have old graphics and then one right next to it has completely different new style graphics. It's pretty much a mess. Sometimes things just get to convoluted over a long period of time. The game would be better off in it's original state. That could be said for most games (at least for me). I always have more fun before expansions. That was the case for me in UO and WoW as well.
They hate questing because it's not like quests are a staple of RPGs or anything. They despise raiding, gear progression, grinding and all things associated with theme parks. Oh and don't even think about making a "MMO" that you can't play solo from beginning to end, because that is just silly talk! In addition, It better also be polished, balanced, free to play with no bugs and constant content releases.
...Questing in mmorpgs should be called redundant tasking. They are nothing like the quest of the original rpgs.
and i hate grinding. mmo should promote a healthy life style
when i play mmorpg, its online, i want to fight with real people, not brain dead npc.
i dont want to grind quest in order to be strong and can compete.
Yup , get stuck for few month to get max level , then have to run treadmill for gears to be able to have fun and fair PVP is suck .
I don't mind PVE , but i don't want to keep grind in order to have fun PVP .
In most of MMORPG i played , i always play around low or middle level PVP so i don't have to grind my butt . Sadly even in low and middle level , those developers always have ways to ruin the fun by add P2W gears updates n other stuffs .
The real problem with mmos is they stopped releasing them over 10 years ago, and all we have are games with instances and lobbies.
Change the definition. Problem solved.
Oranges have gone extinct and the closest available fruit are limes. I have no interest in limes and all I want is an orange. To fix this problem your proposal is to simply start calling "limes" "oranges".
Congratulations, Narius. You're level of intelligence is exceptional.
Yes. Thank you!
This solves the problem with MMOs .. no one says this will solve the problem of few devs want to cater to you.
The real problem with mmos is they stopped releasing them over 10 years ago, and all we have are games with instances and lobbies.
Change the definition. Problem solved.
Oranges have gone extinct and the closest available fruit are limes. I have no interest in limes and all I want is an orange. To fix this problem your proposal is to simply start calling "limes" "oranges".
Congratulations, Narius. You're level of intelligence is exceptional.
Yes. Thank you!
This solves the problem with MMOs .. no one says this will solve the problem of few devs want to cater to you.
It solves absolutely nothing. Your proposal is childish at best.
Hope you're having fun tonight.....
LOL
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Honestly, MMOs were never good games. They either were overly grindy forced group affairs or mass market cash grabs that were designed around a never ending gear treadmill and difficulty curve meant to keep people playing for an eternity. At their best, they are the video game equivalent of sitting around watching the cooking channel on TV because there's nothing better on to watch.
To make a truly good MMO RPG and not some sort of creation measured strictly on subscriber numbers we need the role of Game Master to exist in the players hands as well as the role of playing a specific character.
It solves absolutely nothing. Your proposal is childish at best.
Hope you're having fun tonight.....
LOL
Really? It is actually not a "proposal" .. because websites are already doing it. It is already a solution many websites (and reviewers) are using.
Tell me why they are doing it .. and what problem it is solving.
Brain cells; use 'em.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The real problems: - Most often outdated technology. - Released too early, too buggy. - They replace quality for quantity. The quests and NPCs and all that stuff is often crappy. - They focus on grinding. - They're not designed to be good games, but rather to have players pay as much money as possible before they get bored. - Lack of innovation.
The real problems: - Most often outdated technology. - Released too early, too buggy. - They replace quality for quantity. The quests and NPCs and all that stuff is often crappy. - They focus on grinding. - They're not designed to be good games, but rather to have players pay as much money as possible before they get bored. - Lack of innovation.
I agree with everything except grinding. There is good grinding and bad grinding and yes grinding NEEDS to exist otherwise you finish the game in one week then what?It is SUPPOSE to feel like a life in a world,hence aka ROLE PLAYING game.So unless you imagine life over in a week,it is expected.
The bad versus good depends if you even like linear questing "i don't" .If you do then is the questing actually any good or are you just running from yellow marker to yellow marker never really caring about the npc or the quest.
There are many other factors,what i have seen is just real bad game design,in most cases the mmorpg's are the ANTI mmorpg.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Everyone wants 'different' but then when it is different its either too hard or 'stupid'. Everyone wants a game they have in THEIR heads. While they can all describe a game and 99% of the people can agree it sounds awesome, until they EXPERIENCE it its meaningless.
The one problem that cant be fixed is 'casual' versus 'hardcore' versus guys who can spend 100 hours a week playing. You can never ever equalize an MMO to keep all those people 'even'. Of course you always get the arguments that its kill or be killed. Hardcore 'talented' guys should get more and the guys who can play 100 hours a week(or more) think that time spent in game should mean something.
Thats why MMOs are dead and why no one sticks with one for more than a few months anymore, and they just go back to the one(s) they have more vested interest in.
The way I see it, the problem is very few people especially on this kind of forum are on their first MMO or even 10th MMORPG. Your first MMORPG seems awesome because you don't have all these expectations of it. Maybe you were told it would be like D&D or something but it was certainly different enough to seem interesting and cool. Then you play a few and especially in themeparks they're all basically the same at their core. You remember and idealize stuff from your first MMO. Maybe you met someone cool waiting for the boat once so you start to think if all these *new MMOs* just had long boat rides it would bring back that feeling you're after. But you're forgetting the 1000 times the boat ride was tedious to focus on the one time something interesting happened.
Same with questing or raiding or anything else. We remember our first time encountering these things often positively but many of us are bored doing the same thing over and over. We romanticize the past but really when it comes right down to it we want something totally new that's so novel that we can't even articulate it. Anymore than you could describe what your first MMO would be like 5 years before you played it.
The condensed version. I've been in Fallout 4 for 2 months and just went back to an MMO for 3 hrs and it was 3 hrs of grind. Grind for the sake of grind. Grind to unlock more grind. Not even fun grind. One button, mash insert 6000 times (no really, not embellished. I calculated and it was 6000 Insert key hits) kind of grind.
Most MMO's deserve to die in a fire. They lost their purpose.
It was actually corporate greed that killed MMO's. The slow and steady regression into how to milk you for every penny you have and the discovery of how little of the game you're willing to pay top dollar for.
If the old MMO's were so great, then why aren't you still playing them?
Because they were changed.
That's why, for me, this Lineage 2 classic server is so intriguing.
Though, I would also say that sometimes the controls/graphics don't hold up over the long term and probably require something of an update. I doubt that most old games will get this as it costs quite a bit of money.
But don't think that people aren't playing these old mmo's. I have the original everquest on my computer and in many ways it's a breath of fresh air even though it's a bit horrible on the eyes.
I know there are people playing Dark Age of Camelot as one can see over 1,000 people enjoying it night after night.
It's just that the lion's share of mmo players, especially if they came in the WoW era are expecting different things and that's where the money is going to go, to chase these people.
@Sovrath is it a legit server? Can people in the USA play on it? I would consider supporting L2 Classic if it was legit.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Not to worry, there are a couple or few mmo that are in development that takes us back to the early days. Only indie mmo devs can bring back that old mmo vibe, lucky for us it seems like we might get what we have been missing in the next couple of years.
They hate questing because it's not like quests are a staple of RPGs or anything. They despise raiding, gear progression, grinding and all things associated with theme parks. Oh and don't even think about making a "MMO" that you can't play solo from beginning to end, because that is just silly talk! In addition, It better also be polished, balanced, free to play with no bugs and constant content releases.
My point is I think the real problem is that a lot of people that play MMOs don't really like MMOs anymore or have never really liked them.
When developers created games like EQ, UO, Shadowbane, Vanilla WoW, etc they weren't trying to please everyone they were just trying to please a small percentage of people that were into fantasy and video games. They basically started with a fantasy based environment, added some cool elements like crafting, building, etc, sold it in a box and charged a monthly fee to play it to support continued development and server costs, and we were all fine with it. There were only a few to chose from so us gamers picked our poison, created our guilds, hopped in voice comms with our guildies, quested until we reached a level previously thought unreachable and neglected our families and friends for months and years.
I feel that most of the original MMO players have either become jaded or have moved on and we are left with a bunch of people that discovered MMOs at a time when developers were chasing the WoW white rabbit and either doing everything the same but not as good as WoW or everything completely different than it, neither methodology has really progressed the genre.
I say it's time for MMOs to get back to their roots! Forget trying to be everything to everyone and just please the people that really love the genre. Charge us to buy the game and to play, make things not so easily accessible, make grouping mandatory for at least 50% of the game, make it hard to really advance if you don't have tons of time to play! This is what we fell in love with all those years ago and I honestly believe that returning to our roots is the only thing that will make it feel right again!
OP you are right about a lot of what you said. I do think MMOs have to go back to their roots but not make some of the mistakes of the past. Like for example players time is different today than 10 or 15 years ago. So making a grind JUST to make a grind will doom your game. I heard someone say "Well I would hate to see players today play FFXI. Back then we had a year grind to get our best in game Weapon" Yep I agree that old days it was harder to get gear but it was not a grind just to grind until the next patch came out. Take WOW for example, if you spent 6 months getting 8/8 Tier 1 in MC you can bet it will take you 6+ Months to get 8/8 Tier 2 in BWL. Why were people OK with that? Because while getting gear was hard you had it for months and sometimes near a year.
There was Balance between effort and having something for a long time then. FFXIV came out with a stupid grind for the best weapon in the game. It was designed for SOLO players to get one of the best weapons instead of playing an MMO with other people so SE can cater to all players. No this should not be done, should there be some really hard gear to get that might be a real grind. Hell yea, BUT! it should last you a long time too not a patch or two. And we shouldnt design certain gear to be a grind just so players can keep away from playing together. That is what one of the major problems with MMOs are today.
They hate questing because it's not like quests are a staple of RPGs or anything. They despise raiding, gear progression, grinding and all things associated with theme parks. Oh and don't even think about making a "MMO" that you can't play solo from beginning to end, because that is just silly talk! In addition, It better also be polished, balanced, free to play with no bugs and constant content releases.
My point is I think the real problem is that a lot of people that play MMOs don't really like MMOs anymore or have never really liked them.
Quests are indeed a stable of RPGs, and are great. The problem is that what they call "quests" in MMORPGs are anything but. King Arthur searching for the holy grail was a quest. Frodo marching the One Ring to Mt. Doom was a quest. Having to pick up five items off the ground in <Insert MMORPG Here> is not a quest, it's a bloody chore. It's something you punish children with, not something you entertain people it.
Quests are indeed a stable of RPGs, and are great. The problem is that what they call "quests" in MMORPGs are anything but. King Arthur searching for the holy grail was a quest. Frodo marching the One Ring to Mt. Doom was a quest. Having to pick up five items off the ground in <Insert MMORPG Here> is not a quest, it's a bloody chore. It's something you punish children with, not something you entertain people it.
Tasks can be entertaining ... it is subjective. I do agree quests are not quests in MMOs .. they are pretending to be quests.
They are better off to be just bounties (like in D3) .. combat task with rewards ... and no pretentious quest text. If the combat is fun, people will play it.
They hate questing because it's not like quests are a staple of RPGs or anything. They despise raiding, gear progression, grinding and all things associated with theme parks. Oh and don't even think about making a "MMO" that you can't play solo from beginning to end, because that is just silly talk! In addition, It better also be polished, balanced, free to play with no bugs and constant content releases.
My point is I think the real problem is that a lot of people that play MMOs don't really like MMOs anymore or have never really liked them.
Quests are indeed a stable of RPGs, and are great. The problem is that what they call "quests" in MMORPGs are anything but. King Arthur searching for the holy grail was a quest. Frodo marching the One Ring to Mt. Doom was a quest. Having to pick up five items off the ground in <Insert MMORPG Here> is not a quest, it's a bloody chore. It's something you punish children with, not something you entertain people it.
I absolutely agree. I would rather them be couched as "jobs" or "tasks" where someone could be hired to do some such thing but if a game is going to have a quest then it should have some substance.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Tasks(Quests !) seem like they are in MMOs now because people can't figure out what to do without them.
In UO and EQ I did tasks when starting the game. Basically I went out, killed things, and found vendors or players that were willing to buy the items for money. This is a good starting point for any adventurer IMO. I much preferred it this way as it made the world feel more realistic (in an enjoyable way). There was more freedom.
Quests shouldn't be so obvious always. They might start with some gossip at a local tavern or various hints by NPCs. Generally there would be no quest log. Just talking to different people and then figuring out what to do based on the clues they give you. This would likely take you on long journeys to a lot of different/dangerous places.
I do agree quests are not quests in MMOs .. they are pretending to be quests.
But that's mostly because of overproduction.
You could do an mmo with, say, five massive quests over a character's lifetime. "But we're trying to hammer this into a progression mechanic; we'll need thousands of them."
Killquests and Fedex quests and the like used to be only minor pieces of more massive assignments. But once design began demanding quest be stand-ins for progression design, they got chopped into tiny, insignificant bits and mass-produced by the thousands.
There used to be class quests, that consisted of multiple stages, go to X and do Y, bring back Z, then collect A, B and C and travel to Q. The pieces even made some sort of sense, in light of the overall story framework.
But they chopped those up to cut down complaining over how much of each quest was being simply spent passively watching time pass from the deck of a ship or the back of a griffon. I remember one of the class quests involving intercontinental (ship) travel used seventeen times from beginning to end. And a few dozen griffon flights. "Runaround" was a frequently used expression.
Passive travel killed the megaquests. The smaller quest-lite pieces chained together more efficiently into "quest hubs". And paid off the gratification "dings" much more frequently.
What was lost was the sense of achievement. You didn't do one significant Quest; you did fifty unconnected, insignificant chores.
Comments
and i hate grinding. mmo should promote a healthy life style
when i play mmorpg, its online, i want to fight with real people, not brain dead npc.
i dont want to grind quest in order to be strong and can compete.
I don't mind PVE , but i don't want to keep grind in order to have fun PVP .
In most of MMORPG i played , i always play around low or middle level PVP so i don't have to grind my butt .
Sadly even in low and middle level , those developers always have ways to ruin the fun by add P2W gears updates n other stuffs .
This solves the problem with MMOs .. no one says this will solve the problem of few devs want to cater to you.
There are tons of e-sport pvp focus mmos like World of Tanks that you can just jump in and pvp without a single second of pve.
Hope you're having fun tonight.....
LOL
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Tell me why they are doing it .. and what problem it is solving.
To make a truly good MMO RPG and not some sort of creation measured strictly on subscriber numbers we need the role of Game Master to exist in the players hands as well as the role of playing a specific character.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
- Most often outdated technology.
- Released too early, too buggy.
- They replace quality for quantity. The quests and NPCs and all that stuff is often crappy.
- They focus on grinding.
- They're not designed to be good games, but rather to have players pay as much money as possible before they get bored.
- Lack of innovation.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
There is good grinding and bad grinding and yes grinding NEEDS to exist otherwise you finish the game in one week then what?It is SUPPOSE to feel like a life in a world,hence aka ROLE PLAYING game.So unless you imagine life over in a week,it is expected.
The bad versus good depends if you even like linear questing "i don't" .If you do then is the questing actually any good or are you just running from yellow marker to yellow marker never really caring about the npc or the quest.
There are many other factors,what i have seen is just real bad game design,in most cases the mmorpg's are the ANTI mmorpg.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Everyone wants 'different' but then when it is different its either too hard or 'stupid'. Everyone wants a game they have in THEIR heads. While they can all describe a game and 99% of the people can agree it sounds awesome, until they EXPERIENCE it its meaningless.
The one problem that cant be fixed is 'casual' versus 'hardcore' versus guys who can spend 100 hours a week playing. You can never ever equalize an MMO to keep all those people 'even'. Of course you always get the arguments that its kill or be killed. Hardcore 'talented' guys should get more and the guys who can play 100 hours a week(or more) think that time spent in game should mean something.
Thats why MMOs are dead and why no one sticks with one for more than a few months anymore, and they just go back to the one(s) they have more vested interest in.
Same with questing or raiding or anything else. We remember our first time encountering these things often positively but many of us are bored doing the same thing over and over. We romanticize the past but really when it comes right down to it we want something totally new that's so novel that we can't even articulate it. Anymore than you could describe what your first MMO would be like 5 years before you played it.
I've been in Fallout 4 for 2 months and just went back to an MMO for 3 hrs and it was 3 hrs of grind. Grind for the sake of grind. Grind to unlock more grind. Not even fun grind. One button, mash insert 6000 times (no really, not embellished. I calculated and it was 6000 Insert key hits) kind of grind.
Most MMO's deserve to die in a fire. They lost their purpose.
@Sovrath is it a legit server? Can people in the USA play on it? I would consider supporting L2 Classic if it was legit.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
There was Balance between effort and having something for a long time then. FFXIV came out with a stupid grind for the best weapon in the game. It was designed for SOLO players to get one of the best weapons instead of playing an MMO with other people so SE can cater to all players. No this should not be done, should there be some really hard gear to get that might be a real grind. Hell yea, BUT! it should last you a long time too not a patch or two. And we shouldnt design certain gear to be a grind just so players can keep away from playing together. That is what one of the major problems with MMOs are today.
They are better off to be just bounties (like in D3) .. combat task with rewards ... and no pretentious quest text. If the combat is fun, people will play it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In UO and EQ I did tasks when starting the game. Basically I went out, killed things, and found vendors or players that were willing to buy the items for money. This is a good starting point for any adventurer IMO. I much preferred it this way as it made the world feel more realistic (in an enjoyable way). There was more freedom.
Quests shouldn't be so obvious always. They might start with some gossip at a local tavern or various hints by NPCs. Generally there would be no quest log. Just talking to different people and then figuring out what to do based on the clues they give you. This would likely take you on long journeys to a lot of different/dangerous places.
You could do an mmo with, say, five massive quests over a character's lifetime. "But we're trying to hammer this into a progression mechanic; we'll need thousands of them."
Killquests and Fedex quests and the like used to be only minor pieces of more massive assignments. But once design began demanding quest be stand-ins for progression design, they got chopped into tiny, insignificant bits and mass-produced by the thousands.
There used to be class quests, that consisted of multiple stages, go to X and do Y, bring back Z, then collect A, B and C and travel to Q. The pieces even made some sort of sense, in light of the overall story framework.
But they chopped those up to cut down complaining over how much of each quest was being simply spent passively watching time pass from the deck of a ship or the back of a griffon. I remember one of the class quests involving intercontinental (ship) travel used seventeen times from beginning to end. And a few dozen griffon flights. "Runaround" was a frequently used expression.
Passive travel killed the megaquests. The smaller quest-lite pieces chained together more efficiently into "quest hubs". And paid off the gratification "dings" much more frequently.
What was lost was the sense of achievement. You didn't do one significant Quest; you did fifty unconnected, insignificant chores.