To me personally - the entire discussion of P2W is completely moot - because since the very first MMORPGs money has ALWAYS provided an advantage - even back in UO and EQ1 vanilla days, people bought items with real cash.
People bought max level max gear accounts. People spent more money on multiple accounts etc...
A person who wants to throw money at a game will buy an advantage with or without a cash shop.
So all games are P2W for a person who is willing to throw money at them.
It really comes down to who is making money - the developer or a 3rd party account sale/item sale gold site.
The problem with this "Can't beat em, join em" philosophy, is that everything about the game is both subtlety and no-so subtly designed to funnel players through the cash shop. Game mechanics, new content, "in-your-face" advertising, other players and what they got that you don't, all serve to "encourage" spending money. And not a little. Some games seem to be better than others in this regard, but they all do it to some extent.
It's quite telling to see how many of the arguments in this thread have shifted away from condemning P2W, and have moved on to discussing "how bad" the P2W will be.
Many seem to have already accepted P2W, as long as it's not too "excessive" !
Give it a few more years and the discussions will be about which P2W game is most affordable...
The definition of P2W has been shifting a lot.
...
And it will continue to "shift", until it is the accepted standard.
We're almost there already.
The Koreans and Russians are just slightly ahead of the western gamers, that's all.
The problem with this "Can't beat em, join em" philosophy, is that everything about the game is both subtlety and no-so subtly designed to funnel players through the cash shop. Game mechanics, new content, "in-your-face" advertising, other players and what they got that you don't, all serve to "encourage" spending money. And not a little. Some games seem to be better than others in this regard, but they all do it to some extent.
It's about making money - and when it comes to games meant for the mass market - whatever technique will separate money from the end user more effectively will be the one used in game.
Currently that's the cash shops - a good game with a well designed cash shop is an absolute cash cow for the developer.
Again would it make any sense for a mass market product to NOT embrace whatever method that will make them the most money?
I am always puzzled to why some players don't see this obvious predicament.
The problem with this "Can't beat em, join em" philosophy, is that everything about the game is both subtlety and no-so subtly designed to funnel players through the cash shop. Game mechanics, new content, "in-your-face" advertising, other players and what they got that you don't, all serve to "encourage" spending money. And not a little. Some games seem to be better than others in this regard, but they all do it to some extent.
It's about making money - and when it comes to games meant for the mass market - whatever technique will separate money from the end user more effectively will be the one used in game.
Currently that's the cash shops - a good game with a well designed cash shop is an absolute cash cow for the developer.
Again would it make any sense for a mass market product to NOT embrace whatever method that will make them the most money?
I am always puzzled to why some players don't see this obvious predicament.
"a good game with a well designed cash shop"
This is where the problem lies. The vast majority, just aren't.
Again would it make any sense for a mass market product to NOT embrace whatever method that will make them the most money?
I am always puzzled to why some players don't see this obvious predicament.
"Predicament" ?
Is there some law that compels game developers to extract the maximum possible revenue from each player ?
I suppose in the case of online games, the sky's the limit when it comes to "maximum possible revenue".
Trying to find the most manipulative/exploitative game designs seems to be the ultimate goal for modern game designers. With luck, they may accidentally create a game that is also enjoyable to play...
And this also ignores a positive effect: When there is a legit, completely safe way of obtaining ingame money, why even bother going to shady looking gold sellers?
There seems to be at least as much "gold selling" in F2P as in P2P games, I would argue there's actually more in F2P games with a cash shop.
The idea that cash shops remove gold sellers, is not something I would agree with.
There are hundreds of hits when you search for "Black desert gold sellers". The sites are already set up before the game is officially launched.
And this also ignores a positive effect: When there is a legit, completely safe way of obtaining ingame money, why even bother going to shady looking gold sellers?
There seems to be at least as much "gold selling" in F2P as in P2P games, I would argue there's actually more in F2P games with a cash shop.
The idea that cash shops remove gold sellers, is not something I would agree with.
There's only ONE 100% effective way to remove goldsellers: no demand for gold !
Nothing else removes them.
No "cost of entry" is ever high enough, because stolen credit card numbers are cheap and in plentiful supply. In Archeage alpha it cost $150 per account. Goldsellers were spamming 24/7.
Goldseller activity naturally declines along with the game's age and population. It's often said that the developer "finally got rid of most of the bots and goldsellers". That usually corresponds to the time when 75% of the launch-day population is gone. But they didn't stop the goldsellers. The activity declined of its own accord due to falling demand.
Game developers are powerless to prevent goldsellers. They can treat the symptoms to varying degrees, but they cannot cure the disease, because that would kill the patient.
It's quite telling to see how many of the arguments in this thread have shifted away from condemning P2W, and have moved on to discussing "how bad" the P2W will be.
Many seem to have already accepted P2W, as long as it's not too "excessive" !
Give it a few more years and the discussions will be about which P2W game is most affordable...
Not me,i will never give any cash shop props,they are all the same,they can't compete in a subscription model so they try and lure people in then hit them up with ridiculous priced virtual items. What is far worse is when a developer takes ideas/items that SHOULD be stuff you earn in a game and toss it into a cash shop. Smedley was one of those lamers,taking housing,the perfect idea for players to build/craft/attain in game and throwing it into the cash shop.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
And this also ignores a positive effect: When there is a legit, completely safe way of obtaining ingame money, why even bother going to shady looking gold sellers?
There seems to be at least as much "gold selling" in F2P as in P2P games, I would argue there's actually more in F2P games with a cash shop.
The idea that cash shops remove gold sellers, is not something I would agree with.
There's only ONE 100% effective way to remove goldsellers: no demand for gold !
Nothing else removes them.
No "cost of entry" is ever high enough, because stolen credit card numbers are cheap and in plentiful supply. In Archeage alpha it cost $150 per account. Goldsellers were spamming 24/7.
Goldseller activity naturally declines along with the game's age and population. It's often said that the developer "finally got rid of most of the bots and goldsellers". That usually corresponds to the time when 75% of the launch-day population is gone. But they didn't stop the goldsellers. The activity declined of its own accord due to falling demand.
Game developers are powerless to prevent goldsellers. They can treat the symptoms to varying degrees, but they cannot cure the disease, because that would kill the patient.
Private Vanilla WoW servers have gold sellers. And frankly, I disagree with the "advantage" of having "legit" gold sellers from the publisher. They have the ability to alter the game to encourage spending....And they do.
I played Anarchy Online for years. And in 2010 they introduced their Cash Shop. Everything that was wrong with the game, was immediately "fixed" I'm not getting into years of history, but just say that the game had been aging and hadn't been updated by Funcom very well. There were numerous issues with the game that they should have taken care of over the years and just didn't........until 2010. All problems solved. I'm not exaggerating. They put "band-aid" solutions for all the game's issues in the shop. So now we had to pay for temporary fixes to serous game issues.
It's quite telling to see how many of the arguments in this thread have shifted away from condemning P2W, and have moved on to discussing "how bad" the P2W will be.
Many seem to have already accepted P2W, as long as it's not too "excessive" !
Give it a few more years and the discussions will be about which P2W game is most affordable...
And yet people support games like Star Citizen with their $50 - $15,000 asset sales, a cash shop during alpha and the selling of currency post release.
Yes, the genre is doomed and it has been deteriorating for a decade now, ever since gaming companies moved on from sub based revenue model to more and more aggressive money grabs.
Kano, of course companies will look for fastest and most efficient ways to seperate people from their money, that's not surprising to see at all. The frustrations come from seeing how many people willingly fall for the selling tricks even after you explain the scam to them step by step. It really feels like talking to junkies, they know they are being taken advantage of and yet can't wait to throw money at even a sign of a new game. And it has become so bad that you don't even have to have a game to sell, Star Citizen shows us that nowadays you can just sell an idea of a game and make 100+ mill. Shocking and sad to watch.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
To me personally - the entire discussion of P2W is completely moot - because since the very first MMORPGs money has ALWAYS provided an advantage - even back in UO and EQ1 vanilla days, people bought items with real cash.
People bought max level max gear accounts. People spent more money on multiple accounts etc...
A person who wants to throw money at a game will buy an advantage with or without a cash shop.
So all games are P2W for a person who is willing to throw money at them.
It really comes down to who is making money - the developer or a 3rd party account sale/item sale gold site.
^Mhm even Diablo 2, which wasn't an MMO, had a thriving RMT market thanks to people's desire to take shortcuts. I made the exact same comment to friends over the years, someone with money is always going to find a way to get themselves an advantage, whether it's in RL or in the virtual one.
Unless the cash shop is way over the top, it doesn't bother me. And in many cases you can't even buy top tier gear with in game cold anyway since it's all BoP.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Unless the cash shop is way over the top, it doesn't bother me. And in many cases you can't even buy top tier gear with in game cold anyway since it's all
BoP.
I't wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of newer gamers that think "BoP" means "Bind on Purchase"...
To me personally - the entire discussion of P2W is completely moot - because since the very first MMORPGs money has ALWAYS provided an advantage - even back in UO and EQ1 vanilla days, people bought items with real cash.
People bought max level max gear accounts. People spent more money on multiple accounts etc...
A person who wants to throw money at a game will buy an advantage with or without a cash shop.
So all games are P2W for a person who is willing to throw money at them.
It really comes down to who is making money - the developer or a 3rd party account sale/item sale gold site.
Me as a player could not possibly care less about who is making an extra buck on the side. What matters to me is how selling currency affects the game design.
When it's the chinese sweatshop selling curency devs have options to battle this by changing the game design/mechanics and gear progression in ways that benefits the player as opposed to the walet warrior.
When it's the cash shop selling the curency the game design revolves around this cash cow. Aquiring game currency becomes the main goal of the game because: - The best items are tradable. - Gameplay and progression is made very consumables dependant. - Game currency is made hard to aquire by gaming means. This is done by introducing the 'labor' or in case of BDO the 'energy' mechanic which allows the devs to control the max ammount of game curency produced in game which results in a dev/cash shop controlled game economy as opposed to player controlled free market type of economy.
This is all bad for PVE and disastrous for PVP, these types of games are on self-distruct mode from the get go, that's why they are short lived.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
In case some are not aware, the auction house isn't player controlled(Daum/Pearl set fix prices leaving some wiggle room for min/max but they can ultimately readjust prices to their liking) and being unable to trade from player to player(You can only trade consumables which might get changed to nothing) would make it pretty difficult to get a good bang for your bucks.
That's some of their control mechanisms, I'm sure they'll have newer ones in place if the game ever reaches that point. Energy isn't as restricting as some of you might be expecting it to be either.
People always need a conspiracy that the big bad game companies are out to get them.
I can't hardly tell the difference between b2p, p2p, p2w... I"m going to be going about my virtual life in BDO having a wonderful time.
LOL to the rest of you.
Sure, ignorance (willfull or unconscious) is one way to avoid unpleasant situations. You are the target audience for these games and the perfect customer. BDO is made for you. Rock on.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
People always need a conspiracy that the big bad game companies are out to get them.
I can't hardly tell the difference between b2p, p2p, p2w... I"m going to be going about my virtual life in BDO having a wonderful time.
LOL to the rest of you.
Sure, ignorance (willfull or unconscious) is one way to avoid unpleasant situations. You are the target audience for these games and the perfect customer. BDO is made for you. Rock on.
The game is not even release and you have your mind made up that it is "pay to win". Which there is no evidence of. Even if there were minor p2w features, who cares? I would love to see a University grade double blind study of the placebo effect of these minor p2w features.
So people shouldn't like Hearthstone because people buy card packs? People shouldn't like Fifa because you can buy Fifa points? Who cares?
I hope the BDO developer has a good business model so they have reason to keep adding content, thats all I really care about.
The game is not even release and you have your mind made up that it is "pay to win". Which there is no evidence of.
It has the same design/mechanics/features in place as Archeage which is hardcore P2W. It's a game concept we like to call a "Whales race to power". It guarantees super fast return on investment. This is set in stone as a selling pitch to investors before any money changes hands so don't expect to go any different then Archeage did.
The difference in the BDO cash shop between EU/NA and Russia or Korea is just temporary deal because EU/NA players raised the P2W issues on time but most importantly because BDO is Buy-to-play so they must play ball until you buy the game at least.
I hope the BDO developer has a good business model so they have reason to keep adding content, thats all I really care about.
They don't have a good business model and they have ZERO reason to keep adding content, that's why there are no dungeons or raids in the game in the first place, they cater to PVP wallet warriors, PVP is the end game, PVE is a less then a week affair to get to level 50 so you can PVP.
But hey, you shouldn't worry about all this, because:
I just read on the forums there will be no more item destruction upon death for pvp. There will also be a system were the loser drops a percentage of the silver they are carrying.
Pretty awesome stuff if I understand correctly, especially the silver drop. For those who don't know in BDO each town has a bank, they are not connected. Carrying silver has an actual weight. This means people leave silver in town banks. This also means that in order to get silver from one town to another you need to physically move it.
Clarification
Rogue and Outlaw players can PvP each other all they like with no penalties.
If both players are flagged for PvP they can fight each other with no penalties.
The [Feud-Buff] is granted to the Target if they are killed in PvP.
The game is not even release and you have your mind made up that it is "pay to win". Which there is no evidence of.
It has the same design/mechanics/features in place as Archeage which is hardcore P2W. It's a game concept we like to call a "Whales race to power". It guarantees super fast return on investment. This is set in stone as a selling pitch to investors before any money changes hands so don't expect to go any different then Archeage did.
The difference in the BDO cash shop between EU/NA and Russia or Korea is just temporary deal because EU/NA players raised the P2W issues on time but most importantly because BDO is Buy-to-play so they must play ball until you buy the game at least.
I hope the BDO developer has a good business model so they have reason to keep adding content, thats all I really care about.
They don't have a good business model and they have ZERO reason to keep adding content, that's why there are no dungeons or raids in the game in the first place, they cater to PVP wallet warriors, PVP is the end game, PVE is a less then a week affair to get to level 50 so you can PVP.
But hey, you shouldn't worry about all this, because:
I"m going to be going about my virtual life in BDO having a wonderful time.
LOL to the rest of you.
You are blowing the ArcheAge issues WAY out of the water. I'm only a patron and have a hell of a fun time in the game. Surround yourself with a good guild will protect from any ganking that you're afraid of.
Have fun not playing and being a bitter internet troll.
Oh I'm an internet troll now? Lol. My bitching about the game goes in your favor you dolt. If there wasn't any P2W bitching you were going to take it up the bum from the cash shop like russians did come launch. You should thank me you shallow mind you.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Comments
We're almost there already.
The Koreans and Russians are just slightly ahead of the western gamers, that's all.
+1 for real talk.
This is where the problem lies. The vast majority, just aren't.
Is there some law that compels game developers to extract the maximum possible revenue from each player ?
I suppose in the case of online games, the sky's the limit when it comes to "maximum possible revenue".
Trying to find the most manipulative/exploitative game designs seems to be the ultimate goal for modern game designers. With luck, they may accidentally create a game that is also enjoyable to play...
The idea that cash shops remove gold sellers, is not something I would agree with.
There are hundreds of hits when you search for "Black desert gold sellers". The sites are already set up before the game is officially launched.
Nothing else removes them.
No "cost of entry" is ever high enough, because stolen credit card numbers are cheap and in plentiful supply. In Archeage alpha it cost $150 per account. Goldsellers were spamming 24/7.
Goldseller activity naturally declines along with the game's age and population. It's often said that the developer "finally got rid of most of the bots and goldsellers". That usually corresponds to the time when 75% of the launch-day population is gone. But they didn't stop the goldsellers. The activity declined of its own accord due to falling demand.
Game developers are powerless to prevent goldsellers. They can treat the symptoms to varying degrees, but they cannot cure the disease, because that would kill the patient.
What is far worse is when a developer takes ideas/items that SHOULD be stuff you earn in a game and toss it into a cash shop.
Smedley was one of those lamers,taking housing,the perfect idea for players to build/craft/attain in game and throwing it into the cash shop.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I played Anarchy Online for years. And in 2010 they introduced their Cash Shop. Everything that was wrong with the game, was immediately "fixed" I'm not getting into years of history, but just say that the game had been aging and hadn't been updated by Funcom very well. There were numerous issues with the game that they should have taken care of over the years and just didn't........until 2010. All problems solved. I'm not exaggerating. They put "band-aid" solutions for all the game's issues in the shop. So now we had to pay for temporary fixes to serous game issues.
Yeah, I quit soon after.
All I have to say to the team at BDO.
Please don't make my 2016 gaming fun suck. You are my last hope until Fall which is so far away.
Kano, of course companies will look for fastest and most efficient ways to seperate people from their money, that's not surprising to see at all.
The frustrations come from seeing how many people willingly fall for the selling tricks even after you explain the scam to them step by step.
It really feels like talking to junkies, they know they are being taken advantage of and yet can't wait to throw money at even a sign of a new game.
And it has become so bad that you don't even have to have a game to sell, Star Citizen shows us that nowadays you can just sell an idea of a game and make 100+ mill.
Shocking and sad to watch.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Unless the cash shop is way over the top, it doesn't bother me. And in many cases you can't even buy top tier gear with in game cold anyway since it's all BoP.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
What matters to me is how selling currency affects the game design.
When it's the chinese sweatshop selling curency devs have options to battle this by changing the game design/mechanics and gear progression in ways that benefits the player as opposed to the walet warrior.
When it's the cash shop selling the curency the game design revolves around this cash cow.
Aquiring game currency becomes the main goal of the game because:
- The best items are tradable.
- Gameplay and progression is made very consumables dependant.
- Game currency is made hard to aquire by gaming means.
This is done by introducing the 'labor' or in case of BDO the 'energy' mechanic which allows the devs to control the max ammount of game curency produced in game which results in a dev/cash shop controlled game economy as opposed to player controlled free market type of economy.
This is all bad for PVE and disastrous for PVP, these types of games are on self-distruct mode from the get go, that's why they are short lived.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
That's some of their control mechanisms, I'm sure they'll have newer ones in place if the game ever reaches that point. Energy isn't as restricting as some of you might be expecting it to be either.
I can't hardly tell the difference between b2p, p2p, p2w... I"m going to be going about my virtual life in BDO having a wonderful time.
LOL to the rest of you.
You are the target audience for these games and the perfect customer.
BDO is made for you.
Rock on.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
So people shouldn't like Hearthstone because people buy card packs? People shouldn't like Fifa because you can buy Fifa points? Who cares?
I hope the BDO developer has a good business model so they have reason to keep adding content, thats all I really care about.
It's a game concept we like to call a "Whales race to power".
It guarantees super fast return on investment.
This is set in stone as a selling pitch to investors before any money changes hands so don't expect to go any different then Archeage did.
The difference in the BDO cash shop between EU/NA and Russia or Korea is just temporary deal because EU/NA players raised the P2W issues on time but most importantly because BDO is Buy-to-play so they must play ball until you buy the game at least.
They don't have a good business model and they have ZERO reason to keep adding content, that's why there are no dungeons or raids in the game in the first place, they cater to PVP wallet warriors, PVP is the end game, PVE is a less then a week affair to get to level 50 so you can PVP.
But hey, you shouldn't worry about all this, because:
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Pretty awesome stuff if I understand correctly, especially the silver drop. For those who don't know in BDO each town has a bank, they are not connected. Carrying silver has an actual weight. This means people leave silver in town banks. This also means that in order to get silver from one town to another you need to physically move it.
Clarification
Have fun not playing and being a bitter internet troll.
New PvE content here, with more parts of the map opened up recently.
http://massivelyop.com/2015/12/28/take-a-tour-of-the-new-dungeons-in-black-deserts-newest-korean-update/
New open world boss here.
http://massivelyop.com/2016/01/11/black-desert-makes-the-world-boss-desert-dragon-even-more-boss/
Lol.
My bitching about the game goes in your favor you dolt.
If there wasn't any P2W bitching you were going to take it up the bum from the cash shop like russians did come launch.
You should thank me you shallow mind you.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.