Gear in BDO can be obtained/upgraded through grinding a lone without having to open a wallet.
Do you have any idea how RNG Korean crafting works?
Do you consider people who win jackpots at slot machines to be highly skilled lever pullers?
Thats what being a top .001% player is in BDO even without the P2W. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything remotely related to balance, competition or skill.
The incentive to add P2W to these systems is astronomical and is exactly how it works in Korea and Russia. Just add in a little item that improves upgrade chance and boom they are multi-millionaires overnight.
People have posted the evidence and even shown how one the people behind the cash shop in Vindictus is now running this one. You are the one who needs to prove why anyone in their right mind should trust anything Daum says.
Yes I understand RNG crafting, but do you realize every game is not 100% identical?
No jackpot winners are not skilled lever pullers, but you gotta play to win. Not going to bring home any quarters if you sit at home complaining about how stupid slot machines are.
Getting to the top takes a lot of effort in multiple forms. Luck is unfortunately part of it, but they also have systems in place to at least make it not entirely impossible (fail stacks) and recent update adjusted to make another way to upgrade.
As BDO's end game is pretty much upgrading gear to PVP along with all the system to build currency supply to support both, I get why RNG plays a role. If there wasn't any loss, people would grind to the top and have little incentive to do anything out of a small area of the game. Don't believe people are meant to only play one aspect 24/7.
You might not like it, but it isn't inherently evil because you don't. I thought ToA was terrible for DAoC, take my perfectly fun RvR/PVP game and make me grind gear, no thanks. Or WoW, vanilla was okay, BTC comes out and I realize all the gear I had earned over a couple years of "working" hard, was basically garbage day one of the expansion. Similar in most games.
I'd rather take luck and knowing the setup up front then huge changes coming down the line not matching what I initially bought in for.
There is incentive to go P2W, no doubt at all. However, there is incentive to keep customers around longer than just the initial buy in price as well. If only "whales" can afford to play and the system is so unbalanced, don't see why anyone else would remain nor how the game could continue. I assume AA is running on fumes?
Almost every major MMO or online game has a cash shop. From gambling for knives in Counterstrike, to buying skins in League, to pets in WoW. Yet some how they aren't all 100% P2W disasters. Almost like companies aren't entirely trying to rip everyone off to make a quick buck.
Please show me the evidence of the person behind Vindictus's cash shop having full control over it and them having the same control over BDO's and that they have made the same exact decisions in KR. Then show me it all happening in NA/EU.
You are exaggerating to prove a point which doesn't seem to matter to people that actually want to play this game.
I don't personally care if AA, Vindictus or every single KR game ever is P2W. Until BDO is the same, I'll enjoy it. I'm not planning my entire life/future around it's cash shop model or my performance in the game.
As I know you are a Crowfall backer, I have to wonder why you believe it has any chance of success when the folks behind it made or were part of decisions that many fan are still angry about to this day (15 years later).
That isn't even 3rd hand "all KR games are the same" but straight from the people that made the previous games and decisions. Your logic seems a bit off.
With each update them seem to be slipping more and more away from some key features as well. Lets not mention the cash shop, cause no way it will ever have any P2W items available, it is simply impossible!
I backed Crowfall for 1 reason - Its a pvp game that won't have massive vertical stat scaling.
By allowing anyone who puts in a normal amount of effort to be on a level playing field in terms of stats, the game is actually competitive since a player cannot rely on a gear crutch to win.
This is how FPS, RTS, MOBAs, and Fighting Games all work. A day 1 noob has access to the same toolkit as a 5 year vet.
I realize this is a foreign concept to many MMO players who think grinding mobs all day for their chance in the crafting casino = PvP skill. Unfortunately this mindset is the reason why PVP MMOs are almost all complete garbage and have empty servers after a few months while other PvP genres are literally exploding in popularity.
I backed Crowfall for 1 reason - Its a pvp game that won't have massive vertical stat scaling.
By allowing anyone who puts in a normal amount of effort to be on a level playing field in terms of stats, the game is actually competitive since a player cannot rely on a gear crutch to win.
This is how FPS, RTS, MOBAs, and Fighting Games all work. A day 1 noob has access to the same toolkit as a 5 year vet.
I realize this is a foreign concept to many MMO players who think grinding mobs all day for their chance in the crafting casino = PvP skill. Unfortunately this mindset is the reason why PVP MMOs are almost all complete garbage and have empty servers after a few months while other PvP genres are literally exploding in popularity.
Your funny.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I backed Crowfall for 1 reason - Its a pvp game that won't have massive vertical stat scaling.
By allowing anyone who puts in a normal amount of effort to be on a level playing field in terms of stats, the game is actually competitive since a player cannot rely on a gear crutch to win.
This is how FPS, RTS, MOBAs, and Fighting Games all work. A day 1 noob has access to the same toolkit as a 5 year vet.
I realize this is a foreign concept to many MMO players who think grinding mobs all day for their chance in the crafting casino = PvP skill. Unfortunately this mindset is the reason why PVP MMOs are almost all complete garbage and have empty servers after a few months while other PvP genres are literally exploding in popularity.
Alright, let me try to figure out your logic process so I can't stop bothering with you.
Crowfall:
Conceptual for all intents and purposes.
Made by folks that have made pretty significant changes to their games resulting in people leaving and holding grudges for 10-15 years.
Have already shown to be deviating away from a few hot contested features in favor of going for a larger demographic.
Cash shop will sell conveniences of multiple types and from the latest EK news, maybe more than that.
Cash Shop items can be bought/sold in-game and of course out of it for real cash. (Mounts, VIP, EK items for starters)
Moving away from choices mattering a great deal from some of the recent updates.
Give them money cause PVP and no stat scaling (you know how stats will work at launch?).
Day 1 Noob will have access to the same resources/skills as someone that has played months/years and passively/actively trained, earned rewards, stockpiled gear/resources/Vassels. How do they get those on day 1?
You also said DAoC was for fun and didn't have a grind as well correct?
Pretty funny if you think CW = MOBA design.
Interesting views you have of games you support/enjoy.
BDO:
Playable for over a year.
Available in 3 markets and to be released in two more within ~2 months.
CM's have asked for feedback and made changes to the game to appease fans. Showing they are aware of NA/EU issue with P2W, almost as if they want customers beyond month one. They had a questionnaire after CB1 which was basically asking about every major issue fans had (they pretend so good).
KR version (not familiar with JP/RU) has various convenience and "P2W" things, but still has plenty of folks playing/competing and not selling their kidneys to afford to do so.
Still able to play the game as intended to reach the higher end of things. Regular people can obtain high end gear, but it takes time/luck/effort, not unlike most MMORPGs.
No player to player trading (hopefully doesn't change) & Market has controlled pricing.
Those taking advantage of the cash shop still 100% rely on people actually playing the game.
Don't give them money because all KR games are the same, AA was bad, RNG gear isn't fair/fun.
Really don't see many folks saying PVE Grinding = PVP Skill, but maybe you read between the lines? What you do with the result of the grinding is what matters. Same as any other fantasy mmorpg with PVP.
I'm assuming the "literally" exploding games you speak of are MOBA/FPS and what not and they are popular for many reasons. So are Smash Bros, COD, Halo, Hearthstone.
If you want to play a instanced 5v5 PVP game based on "skill" and leaderboard grinding, plenty of them.
Pretend that pros don't eat/sleep/live gaming and that any noob can just install and be equal.
Those looking for a mmorpg with lots to do, including PVP which isn't based on "fairness" BDO is there.
Entirely different designs for different styles of playing.
In conclusion: You seem to dislike the KR game design and don't have much fact to back up your claims in regards to BDO itself.
Why should people take your word to mean anything?
I backed Crowfall for 1 reason - Its a pvp game that won't have massive vertical stat scaling.
By allowing anyone who puts in a normal amount of effort to be on a level playing field in terms of stats, the game is actually competitive since a player cannot rely on a gear crutch to win.
This is how FPS, RTS, MOBAs, and Fighting Games all work. A day 1 noob has access to the same toolkit as a 5 year vet.
I realize this is a foreign concept to many MMO players who think grinding mobs all day for their chance in the crafting casino = PvP skill. Unfortunately this mindset is the reason why PVP MMOs are almost all complete garbage and have empty servers after a few months while other PvP genres are literally exploding in popularity.
I think progression is core to what makes MMORPGs work. You want to feel more powerful the longer you play. From an RPG standpoint, some guy that spent way more time fighting things would be stronger than someone that didn't.
If I wanted to play on a totally even playing field, I'd play SMITE (and I do, everyday- it's great). But for my MMORPG, I don't want to level up just to play a MOBA in the end. I want to continue to get stronger and become more and more powerful.
I backed Crowfall for 1 reason - Its a pvp game that won't have massive vertical stat scaling.
By allowing anyone who puts in a normal amount of effort to be on a level playing field in terms of stats, the game is actually competitive since a player cannot rely on a gear crutch to win.
This is how FPS, RTS, MOBAs, and Fighting Games all work. A day 1 noob has access to the same toolkit as a 5 year vet.
I realize this is a foreign concept to many MMO players who think grinding mobs all day for their chance in the crafting casino = PvP skill. Unfortunately this mindset is the reason why PVP MMOs are almost all complete garbage and have empty servers after a few months while other PvP genres are literally exploding in popularity.
Alright, let me try to figure out your logic process so I can't stop bothering with you.
They will forever troll. Nobody has any idea what the future of any game will be. The only thing we can go by is what the developers are talking about.
All games are different, why dont you people just wait for release and see for yourself before you start trolling it.
BDO is one of the only truly AAA mmorpg's in recent years and people just cant but help but troll with their conspiracy theories.
I think progression is core to what makes MMORPGs work. You want to feel more powerful the longer you play. From an RPG standpoint, some guy that spent way more time fighting things would be stronger than someone that didn't.
This works fine for PVE games, but in a pvp environment it is unsustainable and leads to empty servers since fresh blood will never be able to compete and vets have no competition (no fights / long que times).
If a 2-4 month race to the top is satisfying to you then ok, but don't call it good pvp game design.
I think progression is core to what makes MMORPGs work. You want to feel more powerful the longer you play. From an RPG standpoint, some guy that spent way more time fighting things would be stronger than someone that didn't.
This works fine for PVE games, but in a pvp environment it is unsustainable and leads to empty servers since fresh blood will never be able to compete and vets have no competition (no fights / long que times).
If a 2-4 month race to the top is satisfying to you then ok, but don't call it good pvp game design.
Despite how incredibly P2W BDO is (so you say) and after all the time that has past there is like one level 61 character, handful of 60s, couple more 59s and so on.
It takes so long that eventually people catch up in levels and gear.
There technically isn't a "top" in KR at least assume it will be the same in NA/EU. Leveling will be even slower in NA/EU.
With how slow it is, might as well be racing in quicksand while the people do laps around you until they fall in as well.
Curious what you believe sustainable is? A year, 2, 10? How many mmorpgs fit that criteria that have a focus on PVP?
There is a big difference between eSport/Competitive PVP and MMORPG PVP outside of instanced WoW Arenas. It isn't supposed to be fair. The fact that you played DAoC and are supporting Crowfall makes me believe you know this already, but your comments seem to conflict with your actions.
Competitive = having influence in GvG, node wars, sieges and server politics - the entire supposed 'endgame' in BDO.
Desiring PvP that doesn't revolve around fighting invincible +99 hero farmers / wallet warriors has nothing to thinking MMOs should be esports. Just stop with this grasping at straws to form some bizzare theory about my thought process.
Gear in BDO can be obtained/upgraded through grinding a lone without having to open a wallet.
Do you have any idea how RNG Korean crafting works?
Do you consider people who win jackpots at slot machines to be highly skilled lever pullers?
Thats what being a top .001% player is in BDO even without the P2W. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything remotely related to balance, competition or skill.
The incentive to add P2W to these systems is astronomical and is exactly how it works in Korea and Russia. Just add in a little item that improves upgrade chance and boom they are multi-millionaires overnight.
People have posted the evidence and even shown how one the people behind the cash shop in Vindictus is now running this one. You are the one who needs to prove why anyone in their right mind should trust anything Daum says.
I got a toon in Rappelz to the upper 90s (Before I quit) Back then, that was pretty good. I can tell you that RNG manipulated crafting is the worst kind of P2W there is because it cannot be bridged by game play.
Oh, it starts out pretty tame and doesn't look too bad. But when you do the math and you start having to combine what amounts to dozens of pets at a time just to get to the next level. Eventually, the ability to combine pet cards to get to the next level will approach zero. This is where a 10% increase in success becomes P2W. It may take them 10 tries and thus 10 paid potions and go through 100 more pet cards, but it will happen. Whales will make that successful combine that cannot be achieved without an RNG boost. And their pet will always be better than yours. The same process applies to gear in that game too.
Competitive = having influence in GvG, node wars, sieges and server politics - the entire supposed 'endgame' in BDO.
Desiring PvP that doesn't revolve around fighting invincible +99 hero farmers / wallet warriors has nothing to thinking MMOs should be esports. Just stop with this grasping at straws to form some bizzare theory about my thought process.
Have you played BDO?
Level makes a difference as you can OMG gear and not be able to hit someone a higher level.
Was watching a stream of a 57 (almost 58) player earlier today and they said as much. Another 57 was in the chat as well (whom is great at PVP and not a P2Wer) and they confirmed the view. I'll take their opinion over yours.
No denying that gear is a major factor, but their are soft caps for both level and gear which people will reach after a decent time/effort investment without the needing to dip into their 401k.
As many guilds control parts all over the BDO landscape, clearly it isn't only the top players doing all the winning as their simply isn't that many.
Assuming you've seen a few videos of 1 vs 5 or whatever and base all your opinions on that or look to AA for all your facts which is very silly.
I think progression is core to what makes MMORPGs work. You want to feel more powerful the longer you play. From an RPG standpoint, some guy that spent way more time fighting things would be stronger than someone that didn't.
This works fine for PVE games, but in a pvp environment it is unsustainable and leads to empty servers since fresh blood will never be able to compete and vets have no competition (no fights / long que times).
If a 2-4 month race to the top is satisfying to you then ok, but don't call it good pvp game design.
"no fights/long que times"? What are you talking about. PVP is open world in BDO.
I honestly wouldn't spend too much time in an MMORPG where everyone was equal from level 1. If there's no progression, then I'd rather just play a MOBA like SMITE.
I'll still be playing SMITE when BDO releases for my quick pvp fix, but BDO offers a much more immersive experience worthy of devoting a lot of time to.
Anyway it's interesting that your main argument against BDO now is that it has progression. Progression is a core element of MMORPGs.
I remember fighting rogues back in the day that got double glaives from Illidan drops in WoW battlegrounds. They were really hard to beat. And just like in BDO, they got the great gear through lucky rng.
RNG is always going to decide who has the best gear, or else everyone would have it and it wouldn't be the best.
Anyway, Crowfall may or may not be the second coming that revolutionizes PVP MMORPGs, but it's still in the conceptual stage. Comparing BDO to a game that isn't close to being playable is kind of silly and basically saying that all PVP in MMORPGs has always sucked (I don't believe this).
Well I have been beating the crap out of a lot of people on Korean server and I haven't spend anything in the cash shop. I can't even read the freaking items listed there. Yeah once in a while I see someone banging me around. But I don't stop to ask if he played the game more than me or has just paid for it. They weren't enough cases for me to care.
Totally agree with @holdenhamlet here. If you had tried to grind High Warlord gear back in vanilla or Glaives in TBC you'd know. In many games without any sort of cash-shops getting the best gear was insanely hard. Most people never cleared Naxx in vanilla let alone be able to grind all their pieces, most guilds disbanded and people quit over Sunwell. I am making WoW references because it is the most western mainstream game there is.
Most top guilds in WoW rented their raid spots after a month or so. Prices varied from €200-€400 per spot. There were boosters for arenas and everything. Yes it was hard (impossible for most) to get the top gear in WoW too and yes you could pay and get everything you wanted as well.
Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon.
No denying that gear is a major factor, but their are soft caps for both level and gear which people will reach after a decent time/effort investment without the needing to dip into their 401k.
This is blatantly wrong. Gear does not have a soft cap, in fact its the compete opposite as stats scale higher and higher as upgrade increases. A +7 weapon is like +14 attack whereas a +15 weapon is +54 attack.
A +15 weapon is FOUR TIMES stronger than a +7. A +20 weapon is probably even more than 4 times stronger than a +15. That is the opposite of a soft cap.
Anyway it's interesting that your main argument against BDO now is that it has progression. Progression is a core element of MMORPGs.
Yet it always fails in PvP MMORPGs and you are completely missing the point of why these Korean games are design to have massive vertical stat scaling.
I have never said everyone should be equal from level 1 in MMOs, but that people who put in a normal amount of effort as in play to level cap and put in a reasonable amount of playtime at level cap should at least have a chance of being able to compete in PvP.
These Asian games all meant to be a race to the top that implodes in a few months. Its catering to the lowest common denominator style pvp which is gear2win.
Bringing up WoW from 10+ years is pointless because its a PVE game with some pvp tacked on. It has also completely reversed the RNG to win, and in Legion will have COMPLETELY NORMALIZED PVP STATS.
No denying that gear is a major factor, but their are soft caps for both level and gear which people will reach after a decent time/effort investment without the needing to dip into their 401k.
This is blatantly wrong. Gear does not have a soft cap, in fact its the compete opposite as stats scale higher and higher as upgrade increases. A +7 weapon is like +14 attack whereas a +15 weapon is +54 attack.
A +15 weapon is FOUR TIMES stronger than a +7. A +20 weapon is probably even more than 4 times stronger than a +15. That is the opposite of a soft cap.
Maybe I'm not using softcap incorrectly, but I see it as the amount of investment to go past a certain point is much much higher than the return. As in once people reach lvl 56 for awakenings, going higher is for stats which aren't extremely higher, but take an extreme amount of time to earn.
Yes +14 > +7 and 15 > 14, that's how math works. However going from 1-7 and then 8-15 isn't that difficult for someone that plays the game regularly and is focused on gear.
Going to 16-20 however does become increasingly more difficult where 18 seems to be pretty high end currently after a year+ or however long KR has been out and +19-20 are not the norm.
Examples from game right now:
Bow (+/- for different quality of gear)
+5: 28-32 AP
+9: 42-46 AP
+14: 62-68 AP
+16: 76-80 AP
+18 90-94 AP
Seems pretty standard vertical progress. But a few AP/DP do go a long way in the game.
Not sure if you understand how BDO's market/gear works, but you can not buy +20 gear. You can buy cash shop items, sell them on the market for a pre-set price (no player to player) and then buy gear that someone else has put the time/effort/RNG into for a pre-set price.
I may be mistaken, but it sounds like AA lets you straight buy top gear or it is very easy to obtain once cash is involved.
Doesn't seem like BDO at all. This being KR which has an accepted "P2W" model. NA/EU is at least launching without it and everything actually taking longer to earn.
So to me there is a softcap where an average/above average player will reach X point. Those that go beyond it will be the minority and the amount of time/effort (maybe cash) they invest will have to be MUCH higher.
If you want fair, not sure what games you will be happy with. Someone that plays League 10+ hours a day is going to be better than average joe. Should they be limited?
Some games don't have cash shops but you can buy gear and power leveling from 3rd parties, should no one play these games since it is unfair?
Crowfall will have VIP and whatever other "perks" for those that pay more. Is it already doomed to be P2W, especially now with the Vassel system and EKs becoming more of a means to obtain resources and what not which most likely will have quite a lot of items on the cash shop to enhance.
There's another million words for you to glaze over.
Anyway it's interesting that your main argument against BDO now is that it has progression. Progression is a core element of MMORPGs.
Yet it always fails in PvP MMORPGs and you are completely missing the point of why these Korean games are design to have massive vertical stat scaling.
I have never said everyone should be equal from level 1 in MMOs, but that people who put in a normal amount of effort as in play to level cap and put in a reasonable amount of playtime at level cap should at least have a chance of being able to compete in PvP.
These Asian games all meant to be a race to the top that implodes in a few months. Its catering to the lowest common denominator style pvp which is gear2win.
Bringing up WoW from 10+ years is pointless because its a PVE game with some pvp tacked on. It has also completely reversed the RNG to win, and in Legion will have COMPLETELY NORMALIZED PVP STATS.
Yes +14 > +7 and 15 > 14, that's how math works. However going from 1-7 and then 8-15 isn't that difficult for someone that plays the game regularly and is focused on gear.
Going to 16-20 however does become increasingly more difficult where 18 seems to be pretty high end currently after a year+ or however long KR has been out and +19-20 are not the norm.
Not sure if you understand how BDO's market/gear works, but you can not buy +20 gear. You can buy cash shop items, sell them on the market for a pre-set price (no player to player) and then buy gear that someone else has put the time/effort/RNG into for a pre-set price.
This was all covered in the gear upgrades thread.
A better or sane pvp design would involve smaller stat increases as upgrades go up: 7-15 and 15-20 should give smaller increases than 1-7, not 250%+ more power. Even if 1-15 is not that hard, +16-+20 are MASSIVE stat upgrades.
Considering there is competition for farming spots and controlling nodes/castles confer huge advantages, people who get an early gear lead will be unstoppable.
The gear in BDO is not BOP and can be sold on the AH. But even if you can't easily buy gear, you can buy the items needed for upgrades (Blackstones) and spam upgrade attempts at a much faster rate than the average player.
A better or sane pvp design would involve smaller stat increases as upgrades go up: 7-15 and 15-20 should give smaller increases than 1-7, not 250%+ more power. Even if 1-15 is not that hard, +16-+20 are MASSIVE stat upgrades.
Considering there is competition for farming spots and controlling nodes/castles confer huge advantages, people who get an early gear lead will be unstoppable.
The gear in BDO is not BOP and can be sold on the AH. But even if you can't easily buy gear, you can buy the items needed for upgrades (Blackstones) and spam upgrade attempts at a much faster rate than the average player.
Going over +15 also requires a MASSIVE amount of effort.
Examples from game right now:
Bow AP (+/- for different quality of gear)
+5: 28-32 AP
+9: 42-46 AP
+14: 62-68 AP
+16: 76-80 AP
+18 90-94 AP
Seems pretty standard vertical progress. But a few AP/DP do go a long way in the game.
If someone puts in 250% more effort/time than me, they shouldn't have more than me?
It sounds nice for everyone to be fair and equal but that isn't how they games are designed nor why I'd image people play them.
If that makes them less popular or not as "good" in your eyes, oh well. If there was only one way to do it, would be pretty boring.
You can not buy blackstones on NA/EU for now nor anything else that will allow "easy" purchasing of gear that someone else put in the time for.
You either put in time, effort, or money into these games. Or all of them. Those that do more of any or all will have an advantage over someone that just logs in once in a while and expects to win. Even those with "skill" in eSport games practice all the time, they don't just show up at tournaments and win.
Sounds like you prefer for there to be a lower ceiling but simply not BDO.
To each their own, but just because I don't like eating goat, doesn't make it bad. Just not for me. Plenty of folks love it.
While you have every right to type up your issues/opinion on the game, seems pointless. Just as if I was to go into SWTOR or ESO or insert game's forum and say XYZ are bad.
I don't see the logic beyond wanting to dump on other people and the game they like.
The design/model isn't going to change for KR games and for the time being, NA/EU is at least dodging some of the issues. Will it hold up? No clue, but I don't pretend to know the future.
Will it hold up? No clue, but I don't pretend to know the future.
I don't pretend to be able to see the future, but I have a pretty good idea about the past. Given the history of Korean imports into western markets I just fail to see how so many people can have faith in the next iteration. Then again MMO gamers have a long standing history of delusional optimism, so I guess I'm not surprised after all.
What you don't seem to get is that massive gear gaps make it impossible to ever objectively measure 'skill'.
You keep inferring that I want everyone to be equal which is not true. When pvp takes place on a relatively equalplaying field, it allows players who develop actual skill to objectively rise to the top.
In a competitive / balanced system someone who plays 24/7 will probably be better than the average player. I have never said that is bad since it is not due a stats advantage allowing for an auto-win, but because that person has developed game knowledge, reflexes and rotations allowing him to legitimately outplay his opponents.
Do you call chess a bad game because someone who has played for 5000 hours doesn't get an automatic advantage over someone who has played only 1000?
I prefer pvp that is closer to chess rather than the current trash games like BDO that match up Mike Tyson against pre-schoolers and call that PvP.
The reason I think this way is because I have been playing PvP MMOs for 15 years, and every single one that has massive vertical stat scaling doesn't last long simply because it is impossible for newer players to ever catch up and replenish the player attrition that affects every mmo.
Will it hold up? No clue, but I don't pretend to know the future.
I don't pretend to be able to see the future, but I have a pretty good idea about the past. Given the history of Korean imports into western markets I just fail to see how so many people can have faith in the next iteration. Then again MMO gamers have a long standing history of delusional optimism, so I guess I'm not surprised after all.
Very true, because honestly if we didn't, we would be foolish to trust any of these companies.
There have been plenty of poor decisions, updates, flat out crappy games over the years that I can't say with 100% certainty that any is going to be what it is hyped to be.
I don't disagree that games like this have issues as they do in fact allow people to win with the aid of non-skill related means.
But you aren't going to find a relatively fair system in the fantasy mmorpg genre.
Even if there is a hard cap on gear/level, then it becomes about numbers where you get the ever loved zerg.
Go a step further and restrict team sizes and you now have MOBA, FPS, WoW like Arenas/Battlegrounds.
If you want that, plenty of games that offer it in many forms and for all intents and purposes, are great for what they are.
Doesn't mean others don't enjoy games like BDO or Shadowbane or DAoC or Darkfall or EVE or insert whatever PVP game that has been a lot of fun but relatively did poor compared to more "fair" games.
I don't know of one fantasy mmorpg that is 100% skill based, do you?
Been online gaming 20+ years now and I'm not ignorant to the issues. But at the same time I've accepted there won't be a magical game that does everything I want perfectly.
Backed Crowfall, but I know it won't be 100% what I want and there are already signs of upcoming issues that will further the in-fighting of fans.
As I've said, BDO allows for relatively fast level/gearing to a point and then becomes a huge time sink to advance. Someone that is grinding all day for lvls/gear is not PVPing with others that are okay with not being the very tip of the iceberg.
Will these folks have an advantage down the road? Yep, but will be much longer than a month or two if the pace is slowed down more than KR which is already pretty extreme.
Possible they will screw fans over and become extremely P2W, but I've been enjoying KR with a much more evil cash shop compared to the proposed NA/EU one and I've having fun. That's all I care about.
You aren't some genius that has figured out the evil company plot to take our money. It is very obvious with just a little common sense/experience. But seems you are trying to prove some point or convince people that BDO is bad.
Good luck with that, but seems like a waste of time. Play what you enjoy and let others play what they do.
If you are trying to get people to get on your soapbox and stand up against the evil ways of KR games, this probably not the best platform to do so.
"Cash shop items will not be able to be sold on the marketplace at launch" - Great news imo- This shows that the team really did think about their shop.
"at launch" ?
Playing semantic games, lol ?
So when will they be sellable on the AH ? One week after launch ?
will be same old song and dance .. 1 month after launch , things will change
If they do, then you can say it's P2W. Saying it now means nothing more than your inability to have rational discussions.
they will because peoples are stupid enough to give them cash
when they release they know the game work only if that not p2win, they sell ''alpha key'' beta key acess ect then they release, get the most money they can.
after 1-2 months only the most hardcore crow are still playing, then they start release the PAY TO WIN CASH SHOP, and peoples who are still playing after the 1-2 months will spend money until they are tired.
archeage 2.0 i have say it and you damn stupid if you think it will not be like that.
only way these game will stop that, that dont give them any money, no alpha acess, nothing. they will start become more clean, and not p2win...
Comments
No jackpot winners are not skilled lever pullers, but you gotta play to win. Not going to bring home any quarters if you sit at home complaining about how stupid slot machines are.
Getting to the top takes a lot of effort in multiple forms. Luck is unfortunately part of it, but they also have systems in place to at least make it not entirely impossible (fail stacks) and recent update adjusted to make another way to upgrade.
As BDO's end game is pretty much upgrading gear to PVP along with all the system to build currency supply to support both, I get why RNG plays a role. If there wasn't any loss, people would grind to the top and have little incentive to do anything out of a small area of the game. Don't believe people are meant to only play one aspect 24/7.
You might not like it, but it isn't inherently evil because you don't. I thought ToA was terrible for DAoC, take my perfectly fun RvR/PVP game and make me grind gear, no thanks. Or WoW, vanilla was okay, BTC comes out and I realize all the gear I had earned over a couple years of "working" hard, was basically garbage day one of the expansion. Similar in most games.
I'd rather take luck and knowing the setup up front then huge changes coming down the line not matching what I initially bought in for.
There is incentive to go P2W, no doubt at all. However, there is incentive to keep customers around longer than just the initial buy in price as well. If only "whales" can afford to play and the system is so unbalanced, don't see why anyone else would remain nor how the game could continue. I assume AA is running on fumes?
Almost every major MMO or online game has a cash shop. From gambling for knives in Counterstrike, to buying skins in League, to pets in WoW. Yet some how they aren't all 100% P2W disasters. Almost like companies aren't entirely trying to rip everyone off to make a quick buck.
Please show me the evidence of the person behind Vindictus's cash shop having full control over it and them having the same control over BDO's and that they have made the same exact decisions in KR. Then show me it all happening in NA/EU.
You are exaggerating to prove a point which doesn't seem to matter to people that actually want to play this game.
I don't personally care if AA, Vindictus or every single KR game ever is P2W. Until BDO is the same, I'll enjoy it. I'm not planning my entire life/future around it's cash shop model or my performance in the game.
As I know you are a Crowfall backer, I have to wonder why you believe it has any chance of success when the folks behind it made or were part of decisions that many fan are still angry about to this day (15 years later).
That isn't even 3rd hand "all KR games are the same" but straight from the people that made the previous games and decisions. Your logic seems a bit off.
With each update them seem to be slipping more and more away from some key features as well. Lets not mention the cash shop, cause no way it will ever have any P2W items available, it is simply impossible!
By allowing anyone who puts in a normal amount of effort to be on a level playing field in terms of stats, the game is actually competitive since a player cannot rely on a gear crutch to win.
This is how FPS, RTS, MOBAs, and Fighting Games all work. A day 1 noob has access to the same toolkit as a 5 year vet.
I realize this is a foreign concept to many MMO players who think grinding mobs all day for their chance in the crafting casino = PvP skill. Unfortunately this mindset is the reason why PVP MMOs are almost all complete garbage and have empty servers after a few months while other PvP genres are literally exploding in popularity.
Otherwise I agree with the sentiment. I'm not really sold on Crowfall, but this concept is important.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Crowfall:
- Moving away from choices mattering a great deal from some of the recent updates.
Give them money cause PVP and no stat scaling (you know how stats will work at launch?).Day 1 Noob will have access to the same resources/skills as someone that has played months/years and passively/actively trained, earned rewards, stockpiled gear/resources/Vassels. How do they get those on day 1?
You also said DAoC was for fun and didn't have a grind as well correct?
Pretty funny if you think CW = MOBA design.
Interesting views you have of games you support/enjoy.
BDO:
- Those taking advantage of the cash shop still 100% rely on people actually playing the game.
Don't give them money because all KR games are the same, AA was bad, RNG gear isn't fair/fun.Really don't see many folks saying PVE Grinding = PVP Skill, but maybe you read between the lines? What you do with the result of the grinding is what matters. Same as any other fantasy mmorpg with PVP.
I'm assuming the "literally" exploding games you speak of are MOBA/FPS and what not and they are popular for many reasons. So are Smash Bros, COD, Halo, Hearthstone.
If you want to play a instanced 5v5 PVP game based on "skill" and leaderboard grinding, plenty of them.
Pretend that pros don't eat/sleep/live gaming and that any noob can just install and be equal.
Those looking for a mmorpg with lots to do, including PVP which isn't based on "fairness" BDO is there.
Entirely different designs for different styles of playing.
In conclusion: You seem to dislike the KR game design and don't have much fact to back up your claims in regards to BDO itself.
Why should people take your word to mean anything?
If I wanted to play on a totally even playing field, I'd play SMITE (and I do, everyday- it's great). But for my MMORPG, I don't want to level up just to play a MOBA in the end. I want to continue to get stronger and become more and more powerful.
All games are different, why dont you people just wait for release and see for yourself before you start trolling it.
BDO is one of the only truly AAA mmorpg's in recent years and people just cant but help but troll with their conspiracy theories.
If a 2-4 month race to the top is satisfying to you then ok, but don't call it good pvp game design.
It takes so long that eventually people catch up in levels and gear.
There technically isn't a "top" in KR at least assume it will be the same in NA/EU. Leveling will be even slower in NA/EU.
With how slow it is, might as well be racing in quicksand while the people do laps around you until they fall in as well.
Curious what you believe sustainable is? A year, 2, 10? How many mmorpgs fit that criteria that have a focus on PVP?
There is a big difference between eSport/Competitive PVP and MMORPG PVP outside of instanced WoW Arenas. It isn't supposed to be fair. The fact that you played DAoC and are supporting Crowfall makes me believe you know this already, but your comments seem to conflict with your actions.
Competitive = having influence in GvG, node wars, sieges and server politics - the entire supposed 'endgame' in BDO.
Desiring PvP that doesn't revolve around fighting invincible +99 hero farmers / wallet warriors has nothing to thinking MMOs should be esports. Just stop with this grasping at straws to form some bizzare theory about my thought process.
Oh, it starts out pretty tame and doesn't look too bad.
But when you do the math and you start having to combine what amounts to dozens of pets at a time just to get to the next level. Eventually, the ability to combine pet cards to get to the next level will approach zero. This is where a 10% increase in success becomes P2W. It may take them 10 tries and thus 10 paid potions and go through 100 more pet cards, but it will happen. Whales will make that successful combine that cannot be achieved without an RNG boost. And their pet will always be better than yours. The same process applies to gear in that game too.
P2W will come and smack you in the face.
Level makes a difference as you can OMG gear and not be able to hit someone a higher level.
Was watching a stream of a 57 (almost 58) player earlier today and they said as much. Another 57 was in the chat as well (whom is great at PVP and not a P2Wer) and they confirmed the view. I'll take their opinion over yours.
No denying that gear is a major factor, but their are soft caps for both level and gear which people will reach after a decent time/effort investment without the needing to dip into their 401k.
As many guilds control parts all over the BDO landscape, clearly it isn't only the top players doing all the winning as their simply isn't that many.
Assuming you've seen a few videos of 1 vs 5 or whatever and base all your opinions on that or look to AA for all your facts which is very silly.
I honestly wouldn't spend too much time in an MMORPG where everyone was equal from level 1. If there's no progression, then I'd rather just play a MOBA like SMITE.
I'll still be playing SMITE when BDO releases for my quick pvp fix, but BDO offers a much more immersive experience worthy of devoting a lot of time to.
Anyway it's interesting that your main argument against BDO now is that it has progression. Progression is a core element of MMORPGs.
I remember fighting rogues back in the day that got double glaives from Illidan drops in WoW battlegrounds. They were really hard to beat. And just like in BDO, they got the great gear through lucky rng.
RNG is always going to decide who has the best gear, or else everyone would have it and it wouldn't be the best.
Anyway, Crowfall may or may not be the second coming that revolutionizes PVP MMORPGs, but it's still in the conceptual stage. Comparing BDO to a game that isn't close to being playable is kind of silly and basically saying that all PVP in MMORPGs has always sucked (I don't believe this).
Totally agree with @holdenhamlet here. If you had tried to grind High Warlord gear back in vanilla or Glaives in TBC you'd know. In many games without any sort of cash-shops getting the best gear was insanely hard. Most people never cleared Naxx in vanilla let alone be able to grind all their pieces, most guilds disbanded and people quit over Sunwell. I am making WoW references because it is the most western mainstream game there is.
Most top guilds in WoW rented their raid spots after a month or so. Prices varied from €200-€400 per spot. There were boosters for arenas and everything. Yes it was hard (impossible for most) to get the top gear in WoW too and yes you could pay and get everything you wanted as well.
This is blatantly wrong. Gear does not have a soft cap, in fact its the compete opposite as stats scale higher and higher as upgrade increases. A +7 weapon is like +14 attack whereas a +15 weapon is +54 attack.
A +15 weapon is FOUR TIMES stronger than a +7. A +20 weapon is probably even more than 4 times stronger than a +15. That is the opposite of a soft cap.
I have never said everyone should be equal from level 1 in MMOs, but that people who put in a normal amount of effort as in play to level cap and put in a reasonable amount of playtime at level cap should at least have a chance of being able to compete in PvP.
These Asian games all meant to be a race to the top that implodes in a few months. Its catering to the lowest common denominator style pvp which is gear2win.
Bringing up WoW from 10+ years is pointless because its a PVE game with some pvp tacked on. It has also completely reversed the RNG to win, and in Legion will have COMPLETELY NORMALIZED PVP STATS.
Go watch this video from R2Games if you want to know why Asian games are entirely just meant to make a quick return for the devs:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An
Yes +14 > +7 and 15 > 14, that's how math works. However going from 1-7 and then 8-15 isn't that difficult for someone that plays the game regularly and is focused on gear.
Going to 16-20 however does become increasingly more difficult where 18 seems to be pretty high end currently after a year+ or however long KR has been out and +19-20 are not the norm.
Examples from game right now:
Bow (+/- for different quality of gear)
- +5: 28-32 AP
- +9: 42-46 AP
- +14: 62-68 AP
- +16: 76-80 AP
- +18 90-94 AP
Seems pretty standard vertical progress. But a few AP/DP do go a long way in the game.Not sure if you understand how BDO's market/gear works, but you can not buy +20 gear. You can buy cash shop items, sell them on the market for a pre-set price (no player to player) and then buy gear that someone else has put the time/effort/RNG into for a pre-set price.
I may be mistaken, but it sounds like AA lets you straight buy top gear or it is very easy to obtain once cash is involved.
Doesn't seem like BDO at all. This being KR which has an accepted "P2W" model. NA/EU is at least launching without it and everything actually taking longer to earn.
So to me there is a softcap where an average/above average player will reach X point. Those that go beyond it will be the minority and the amount of time/effort (maybe cash) they invest will have to be MUCH higher.
If you want fair, not sure what games you will be happy with. Someone that plays League 10+ hours a day is going to be better than average joe. Should they be limited?
Some games don't have cash shops but you can buy gear and power leveling from 3rd parties, should no one play these games since it is unfair?
Crowfall will have VIP and whatever other "perks" for those that pay more. Is it already doomed to be P2W, especially now with the Vassel system and EKs becoming more of a means to obtain resources and what not which most likely will have quite a lot of items on the cash shop to enhance.
There's another million words for you to glaze over.
What normal/average effort?
You are saying that 99% of people aren't able to PVP in BDO as probably only 1% or less have +19-20 and are lvl 58-60+
BDO KR, RU, JP have all all imploded as they have been live for more than a few months?
What is the "top" in BDO in your eyes and how long does it take to reach it either playing normally or P2W?
Lets talk about the actual game in discussion, not "games" in general.
You enjoy Legion, top notch "fair" PVP for you. Clearly you are not hardcore.
A better or sane pvp design would involve smaller stat increases as upgrades go up: 7-15 and 15-20 should give smaller increases than 1-7, not 250%+ more power. Even if 1-15 is not that hard, +16-+20 are MASSIVE stat upgrades.
Considering there is competition for farming spots and controlling nodes/castles confer huge advantages, people who get an early gear lead will be unstoppable.
The gear in BDO is not BOP and can be sold on the AH. But even if you can't easily buy gear, you can buy the items needed for upgrades (Blackstones) and spam upgrade attempts at a much faster rate than the average player.
Examples from game right now:
Bow AP (+/- for different quality of gear)
- +5: 28-32 AP
- +9: 42-46 AP
- +14: 62-68 AP
- +16: 76-80 AP
- +18 90-94 AP
Seems pretty standard vertical progress. But a few AP/DP do go a long way in the game.If someone puts in 250% more effort/time than me, they shouldn't have more than me?
It sounds nice for everyone to be fair and equal but that isn't how they games are designed nor why I'd image people play them.
If that makes them less popular or not as "good" in your eyes, oh well. If there was only one way to do it, would be pretty boring.
You can not buy blackstones on NA/EU for now nor anything else that will allow "easy" purchasing of gear that someone else put in the time for.
You either put in time, effort, or money into these games. Or all of them. Those that do more of any or all will have an advantage over someone that just logs in once in a while and expects to win. Even those with "skill" in eSport games practice all the time, they don't just show up at tournaments and win.
Sounds like you prefer for there to be a lower ceiling but simply not BDO.
To each their own, but just because I don't like eating goat, doesn't make it bad. Just not for me. Plenty of folks love it.
While you have every right to type up your issues/opinion on the game, seems pointless. Just as if I was to go into SWTOR or ESO or insert game's forum and say XYZ are bad.
I don't see the logic beyond wanting to dump on other people and the game they like.
The design/model isn't going to change for KR games and for the time being, NA/EU is at least dodging some of the issues. Will it hold up? No clue, but I don't pretend to know the future.
You keep inferring that I want everyone to be equal which is not true. When pvp takes place on a relatively equal playing field, it allows players who develop actual skill to objectively rise to the top.
In a competitive / balanced system someone who plays 24/7 will probably be better than the average player. I have never said that is bad since it is not due a stats advantage allowing for an auto-win, but because that person has developed game knowledge, reflexes and rotations allowing him to legitimately outplay his opponents.
Do you call chess a bad game because someone who has played for 5000 hours doesn't get an automatic advantage over someone who has played only 1000?
I prefer pvp that is closer to chess rather than the current trash games like BDO that match up Mike Tyson against pre-schoolers and call that PvP.
The reason I think this way is because I have been playing PvP MMOs for 15 years, and every single one that has massive vertical stat scaling doesn't last long simply because it is impossible for newer players to ever catch up and replenish the player attrition that affects every mmo.
There have been plenty of poor decisions, updates, flat out crappy games over the years that I can't say with 100% certainty that any is going to be what it is hyped to be.
I don't disagree that games like this have issues as they do in fact allow people to win with the aid of non-skill related means.
But you aren't going to find a relatively fair system in the fantasy mmorpg genre.
Even if there is a hard cap on gear/level, then it becomes about numbers where you get the ever loved zerg.
Go a step further and restrict team sizes and you now have MOBA, FPS, WoW like Arenas/Battlegrounds.
If you want that, plenty of games that offer it in many forms and for all intents and purposes, are great for what they are.
Doesn't mean others don't enjoy games like BDO or Shadowbane or DAoC or Darkfall or EVE or insert whatever PVP game that has been a lot of fun but relatively did poor compared to more "fair" games.
I don't know of one fantasy mmorpg that is 100% skill based, do you?
Been online gaming 20+ years now and I'm not ignorant to the issues. But at the same time I've accepted there won't be a magical game that does everything I want perfectly.
Backed Crowfall, but I know it won't be 100% what I want and there are already signs of upcoming issues that will further the in-fighting of fans.
As I've said, BDO allows for relatively fast level/gearing to a point and then becomes a huge time sink to advance. Someone that is grinding all day for lvls/gear is not PVPing with others that are okay with not being the very tip of the iceberg.
Will these folks have an advantage down the road? Yep, but will be much longer than a month or two if the pace is slowed down more than KR which is already pretty extreme.
Possible they will screw fans over and become extremely P2W, but I've been enjoying KR with a much more evil cash shop compared to the proposed NA/EU one and I've having fun. That's all I care about.
You aren't some genius that has figured out the evil company plot to take our money. It is very obvious with just a little common sense/experience. But seems you are trying to prove some point or convince people that BDO is bad.
Good luck with that, but seems like a waste of time. Play what you enjoy and let others play what they do.
If you are trying to get people to get on your soapbox and stand up against the evil ways of KR games, this probably not the best platform to do so.
when they release they know the game work only if that not p2win, they sell ''alpha key'' beta key acess ect
then they release, get the most money they can.
after 1-2 months only the most hardcore crow are still playing, then they start release the PAY TO WIN CASH SHOP, and peoples who are still playing after the 1-2 months will spend money until they are tired.
archeage 2.0 i have say it and you damn stupid if you think it will not be like that.
only way these game will stop that, that dont give them any money, no alpha acess, nothing. they will start become more clean, and not p2win...