You fail to understand that cash shops are basically shit polish. Using it doesn't change the fact that the game is shit. Removing cash shop later doesn't remove the stink from the game, like in diablo 3. Subscription supporters don't need to pay for the shit polish, and developers don't need to waste resources for shit polish.
Whether it's shit or not is irrelevant LoL. And also on a smaller scale what u feel is shit is someone else's gold so again much more complicated than how you try to make it seem
Why do u think developers are wasting more and more resources for your idea of "shit" ? Because it's popular, it gives money, it gives players, it gives recognition, that's also why subs are becoming irrelevant, if the majority of your demographic wants and will pay for the polished shit, why in the nine hells would you go against the tide ?.
non sub and/or cash shop games are not only the epitome of capitalism, they are epitome of democracy as well. Once the majority of the mmorpg demographic changed, so did the monetary and development system providing for that majority, isn't that democracy in its essence ? 51% win's the vote, at the cost of the 49% getting what they don't want.
I thought we were talking about whether people get more of whatever they feel is luxury to them with $25 communism or $2000 whale capitalism+democracy. Whether it's shit or not is in the eye of the beholder. The only thing that's important is that the majority has voted with their wallets, and they want their more personal custom-made elite shit. Icing on the cake is that so many of them like the similar stuff (more than anyone could have guessed i guess). That's how the world works, the end.
Only reason to pay this would be for superior customer service and perks that could be clearly lorded over the "inferiors"
For $15 a month Blizzard will give you the best customer service you can find in gaming.
You do realize the best customer service is pretty poor right?
I am talking about active in game moderation, where people who abuse chat channels are swiftly dealt with, spammers and botters immediately crushed by moderators who regular walk around in game and even interact directly with the playerbase.
Role-playing server rules strictly enforced, crap names changed to be compliant, asshattery punished severely.
In game bugs actually worked around or resolved with assistance of in game moderators.
Do it right and I'll give you $50 a month for it.
BTW, if all if that sounds impossible to deliver, Lineage 1 and DAOC had most of the above when they first launched, all for my $12.95 sub fee.
Developers kept MMO prices flat by removing the services that initially were part of the package.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Id pay $25 for a sub if its good, obviously. Id actually be interested in knowing how a 'pay as you go' sub model would work on a good NA game. Anything is better than Cash Shop.
The problems lies on two fronts. First you can have developer greed. Second you can have player entitlement where they think everything should be free. These two things do not mix well, but unfortunately that is where we have landed.
The first one is easy to spot, look at what is happening to Rift right now, they have gone to putting gear slots in the cash store. Or cash shops that have actual gear with stats or potions that boost just about everything in the game. Greed based on value of time of the player.
The second one is horrible today. People think that games should be free when millions go into development. MMO's are a business to developers. I don't think there should be any F2P games myself because any developer should be paid for their work, free trials are good though. B2P with an optional sub is an OK thing for me personally gives the developer back some of the up front development cost. I have no problem giving sub players customs and other items that non-sub players can not get.
So far, no MMORPG has ever been able to get to the level of individual catering that has been experienced on NWN servers. A commercial company would have to charge no less than $30-40 monthly sub fee from each player to get to the quality level of individual customer and storytelling support that enthusiast admins and GMs/DMs have been able to provide for their small communities. A good example of this is the BGTSCC server for Neverwinter Nights 2. It vastly surpasses all MMORPGs just with the commitment of their dungeon master and game master teams, 0% presence of gold sellers/bots and 0% presence of pay-to-win.
I agree with the sentiment of the OP, I too would be willing to pay as much or more for a good game.
Isn't
Revival planning to have special servers with higher subs that get
extra GM attention? Not saying Revival is the answer, I don't think it
is for me at least, but it will be interesting to see if they manage to
launch and run those gold servers or whatever they call them. They might
set an example to follow there. (Their selling virtual estates in early
development is another matter though, I'm not a fan of that)
In Revival monthly sub fees on gold servers will be used for live
storytelling teams. They'll be like dungeon masters in pen-and-paper
RPGs or dungeon masters in Neverwinter Nights peristent worlds, except
equipped with lots of technical tools and systems to meet the demands of a multiplayer evolving online world.
I think what we've seen more than ever over the last 5 years is MMO's being developed for the rich. What's happening is they bring these "F2P" games, where everyone but the rich are like a 3rd class citizen...The rich there are winning vs these players and only compete with someone with the size of their own wallets.
I think I've done my share of part in these 5 years, by not spending a dime on any games where the producers directly encourage these tactics. I would have totally no problem if the game was "P2W" but players themselves could actually sell their stuff, and have at least the freedom to choose if they want to win more in real life or the game.
At the end the only image we receive from these companies that are suppose to show us that progression in their games is more meaningful than earning $ in real life, they just do the opposite. They tell us, playing the REAL LIFE game is the most important thing for us, forget our game cuz we don't care about it as much as your $.
With such perception, such views, naturally players won't see the game as something serious, something important and meaningful to be part of. World of Warcraft would not be as popular for a long time if it applied P2W cash shop. They only start playing with the cash shop when their game went downhill, losing massive subs for not delivering what they were supposed to.
What's worse is when people starting to realize they can "progress" faster in some of these F2P MMOs by having a real life job over actually playing these games.
At the end I believe having larger player base happy and paying for your product is significantly better since word of mouth and bringing/recruiting friends is where there is most space to create and capture a larger market without spending much on advertising.
but if they had the choice to pay a sub instead and get everything why wouldnt they...are people that blind?
Because that's not how it works.
They start adding more and more things to "optional cash shops" and before you know it all the best looking things are outside of the sub. Go look at XIV, that game is trash now. They are reducing patches, more and more cash shop only content and more grind.
Sub games simply don't work unless they are wow, they just rip you off.
Your buying doesn't change anything. But a cash shop requires the game not to be fun or it won't make any money.
Heh? I'm assuming that you're suggesting that they deliberately make the game less fun, then charge you for the "fun stuff"?
In my experience, this hasn't been true. You know what they charge for? Packs of crafting supplies (which you can get in the game). Unique mounts (which do the same thing as any other mount, but it looks different... sometimes its a tiny bit fast).
These are not things that would make an otherwise boring game suddenly fun. So please, give me an example of a cash shop item from a game that made a boring game fun.
but if they had the choice to pay a sub instead and get everything why wouldnt they...are people that blind?
Because that's not how it works.
They start adding more and more things to "optional cash shops" and before you know it all the best looking things are outside of the sub. Go look at XIV, that game is trash now. They are reducing patches, more and more cash shop only content and more grind.
Sub games simply don't work unless they are wow, they just rip you off.
That's... not an accurate generalization.
I've been subscribed to a game that is not-WoW since Nov. 2004, and I certainly feel as though I've gotten my money's worth.
What makes WoW so special?
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
but if they had the choice to pay a sub instead and get everything why wouldnt they...are people that blind?
Because that's not how it works.
They start adding more and more things to "optional cash shops" and before you know it all the best looking things are outside of the sub. Go look at XIV, that game is trash now. They are reducing patches, more and more cash shop only content and more grind.
Sub games simply don't work unless they are wow, they just rip you off.
Haha you guys and your QQing about cash shops. It is optional in almost all mmorpgs that also have sub options. Say it's a rip off is hilarious!
Its like spending $100 to go to a sporting event and you don't have fun because the guy next to you bought the teams new Jersey...it should have no impact on your experience at the game but those with your mentality for some reason let it impact you.
A cash shop requires the game to be fun or no one spends any money on it at all.
No, a cash shop only requires the game to be fun to those willing to spend big on it. (particular emphasis given to the game being more fun the more you spend)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
yeah, you can choose to be gimped or pay an ungodly amount of money in order to stay competitive or get the stuff everyone else is getting with cash.
what gamer do you know is okay with being gimped or not having access to the same stuff everyone else has?
IMO F2P model absolutely ruined the mmo genre, now we are stuck with this model that tricks most of their players into spending a lot more money than they would have ever spent with a sub.
i personally know multiple people that play those types of games that spend hundreds of dollars on F2P games, it's a fucking scam and everyone with half a brain knows it.
yeah, you can choose to be gimped or pay an ungodly amount of money in order to stay competitive or get the stuff everyone else is getting with cash.
what gamer do you know is okay with being gimped or not having access to the same stuff everyone else has?
IMO F2P model absolutely ruined the mmo genre, now we are stuck with this model that tricks most of their players into spending a lot more money than they would have ever spend with a sub.
i personally know multiple people that play those types of games that spend hundreds of dollars on F2P games, it's a fucking scam and everyone with half a brain knows it.
Which games are you "gimped" if you don't use the cash shop that have a sub option and a cash shop ? You guys all QQ about this mysterious phenomenon but never provide actual examples of it.
Which games? Umm, let me see...every game where the same goal I put my time and effort + skill to achieve, someone got it quicker/easier because he opened his wallet in the cash shop for boosts and what not.
You want specific examples? Marvel Heroes Online. Endgame is about getting the latest, cool costumes they bring (as their content) which you can only achieve by either leveling endlessly heroes and blending costumes or simply go to the cash shop and buy the hero + costume you want.
In games where "show off" is what endgame is about like Marvel Heroes where you are the cool kid as long as you have something others want like being cosmic prestiged, with the latest costumes from latest heroes. Cosmic prestige also can take extremely long to achieve, but not if you choose to buy those experience boosts in the cash shop to speed that grind up.
Finally, the entire game is about achievements and leveling progressions that they even made leader board in those categories. Well, guess who will be on top of those "progressions". Those who've spent the most prestiging all their heroes quickly through the cash shop.
This is just one example on one current F2P game I'm part of.
F2P MMOs like this make the entire sense of "achievement" diminished. Most simply don't care because at the end they know I could've done that either with $ or effort+skill. So, they can never tell. This is also another reason why even if I have the $, which I do...I still don't enjoy "spending" it as some of these whales would.
Which games? Umm, let me see...every game where the same goal I put my time and effort + skill to achieve, someone got it quicker/easier because he opened his wallet in the cash shop for boosts and what not.
You want specific examples? Marvel Heroes Online. Endgame is about getting the latest, cool costumes they bring (as their content) which you can only achieve by either leveling endlessly heroes and blending costumes or simply go to the cash shop and buy the hero + costume you want.
In games where "show off" is what endgame is about like Marvel Heroes where you are the cool kid as long as you have something others want like being cosmic prestiged, with the latest costumes from latest heroes. Cosmic prestige also can take extremely long to achieve, but not if you choose to buy those experience boosts in the cash shop to speed that grind up.
Finally, the entire game is about achievements and leveling progressions that they even made leader board in those categories. Well, guess who will be on top of those "progressions". Those who've spent the most prestiging all their heroes quickly through the cash shop.
This is just one example on one current F2P game I'm part of.
Haha your one example is marvel heroes? Lol again you admit it's "all cosmetic" which is exactly the point. You don't get ahead of a person who subs in any mmorpg that has a sub option by using the shop. You guys can post the same post on this random site, you can QQ all day the fact is you are wrong about 99% of those games.
If you like subscription you're jealous of rich whales.
If you like B2P you're not supporting the game, go play single player.
If you use cash shops you're a fool with no sense of value.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
The fact you don't even understand what I'm saying makes arguing with you pointless. Getting "ahead" is something that depends on the game itself by what kind of end game it's offering. Not all end game progressions are about getting more powerful gear, especially with these low budget, cheap, mediocre products that can't afford to deliver sufficient content on schedule for gear progression.
F2P MMOs like this make the entire sense of "achievement" diminished. Most simply don't care because at the end they know I could've done that either with $ or effort+skill. So, they can never tell. This is also another reason why even if I have the $, which I do...I still don't enjoy "spending" it as some of these whales would.
Diminished for you!
You don't have a clue what "most" think.
The truth is game developers don't care about those like you (the minority) who have this flawed mentality and who have clearly been passed by without a glance by the rest of the industry and gamers.
You and the rest have made up this alternate universe where all F2p mmos with sub options somehow allow those who purchase cosmetic items in the shop to have an advantage. Well in real world that isn't the case.
Comments
I guess this is a troll post.
Why do u think developers are wasting more and more resources for your idea of "shit" ? Because it's popular, it gives money, it gives players, it gives recognition, that's also why subs are becoming irrelevant, if the majority of your demographic wants and will pay for the polished shit, why in the nine hells would you go against the tide ?.
non sub and/or cash shop games are not only the epitome of capitalism, they are epitome of democracy as well. Once the majority of the mmorpg demographic changed, so did the monetary and development system providing for that majority, isn't that democracy in its essence ? 51% win's the vote, at the cost of the 49% getting what they don't want.
I thought we were talking about whether people get more of whatever they feel is luxury to them with $25 communism or $2000 whale capitalism+democracy. Whether it's shit or not is in the eye of the beholder. The only thing that's important is that the majority has voted with their wallets, and they want their more personal custom-made elite shit.
Icing on the cake is that so many of them like the similar stuff (more than anyone could have guessed i guess). That's how the world works, the end.
I am talking about active in game moderation, where people who abuse chat channels are swiftly dealt with, spammers and botters immediately crushed by moderators who regular walk around in game and even interact directly with the playerbase.
Role-playing server rules strictly enforced, crap names changed to be compliant, asshattery punished severely.
In game bugs actually worked around or resolved with assistance of in game moderators.
Do it right and I'll give you $50 a month for it.
BTW, if all if that sounds impossible to deliver, Lineage 1 and DAOC had most of the above when they first launched, all for my $12.95 sub fee.
Developers kept MMO prices flat by removing the services that initially were part of the package.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The first one is easy to spot, look at what is happening to Rift right now, they have gone to putting gear slots in the cash store. Or cash shops that have actual gear with stats or potions that boost just about everything in the game. Greed based on value of time of the player.
The second one is horrible today. People think that games should be free when millions go into development. MMO's are a business to developers. I don't think there should be any F2P games myself because any developer should be paid for their work, free trials are good though. B2P with an optional sub is an OK thing for me personally gives the developer back some of the up front development cost. I have no problem giving sub players customs and other items that non-sub players can not get.
These are just my opinions nothing is a fact.
In Revival monthly sub fees on gold servers will be used for live storytelling teams. They'll be like dungeon masters in pen-and-paper RPGs or dungeon masters in Neverwinter Nights peristent worlds, except equipped with lots of technical tools and systems to meet the demands of a multiplayer evolving online world.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
I think I've done my share of part in these 5 years, by not spending a dime on any games where the producers directly encourage these tactics. I would have totally no problem if the game was "P2W" but players themselves could actually sell their stuff, and have at least the freedom to choose if they want to win more in real life or the game.
At the end the only image we receive from these companies that are suppose to show us that progression in their games is more meaningful than earning $ in real life, they just do the opposite. They tell us, playing the REAL LIFE game is the most important thing for us, forget our game cuz we don't care about it as much as your $.
With such perception, such views, naturally players won't see the game as something serious, something important and meaningful to be part of. World of Warcraft would not be as popular for a long time if it applied P2W cash shop. They only start playing with the cash shop when their game went downhill, losing massive subs for not delivering what they were supposed to.
They start adding more and more things to "optional cash shops" and before you know it all the best looking things are outside of the sub. Go look at XIV, that game is trash now. They are reducing patches, more and more cash shop only content and more grind.
Sub games simply don't work unless they are wow, they just rip you off.
In my experience, this hasn't been true. You know what they charge for? Packs of crafting supplies (which you can get in the game). Unique mounts (which do the same thing as any other mount, but it looks different... sometimes its a tiny bit fast).
These are not things that would make an otherwise boring game suddenly fun. So please, give me an example of a cash shop item from a game that made a boring game fun.
I've been subscribed to a game that is not-WoW since Nov. 2004, and I certainly feel as though I've gotten my money's worth.
What makes WoW so special?
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Its like spending $100 to go to a sporting event and you don't have fun because the guy next to you bought the teams new Jersey...it should have no impact on your experience at the game but those with your mentality for some reason let it impact you.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
what gamer do you know is okay with being gimped or not having access to the same stuff everyone else has?
IMO F2P model absolutely ruined the mmo genre, now we are stuck with this model that tricks most of their players into spending a lot more money than they would have ever spent with a sub.
i personally know multiple people that play those types of games that spend hundreds of dollars on F2P games, it's a fucking scam and everyone with half a brain knows it.
You want specific examples? Marvel Heroes Online. Endgame is about getting the latest, cool costumes they bring (as their content) which you can only achieve by either leveling endlessly heroes and blending costumes or simply go to the cash shop and buy the hero + costume you want.
In games where "show off" is what endgame is about like Marvel Heroes where you are the cool kid as long as you have something others want like being cosmic prestiged, with the latest costumes from latest heroes. Cosmic prestige also can take extremely long to achieve, but not if you choose to buy those experience boosts in the cash shop to speed that grind up.
Finally, the entire game is about achievements and leveling progressions that they even made leader board in those categories. Well, guess who will be on top of those "progressions". Those who've spent the most prestiging all their heroes quickly through the cash shop.
This is just one example on one current F2P game I'm part of.
Have we hit the major points yet?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
You don't have a clue what "most" think.
The truth is game developers don't care about those like you (the minority) who have this flawed mentality and who have clearly been passed by without a glance by the rest of the industry and gamers.
You and the rest have made up this alternate universe where all F2p mmos with sub options somehow allow those who purchase cosmetic items in the shop to have an advantage. Well in real world that isn't the case.