If the game is good 25, 30 even 50 bucks per month would be ok for me. I spend that much on things that give me much less pleasure. But I dont play any MMOs atm, they all suck.
For $25/month, that game's code had better be made of ice cream and strippers.
Really, think about it, $25.00 a month is such a small amount of money.
Heck, my monthly EVE bill breaks down to about $60 a month, but only because I pay for annual subs
Lets not talk about the cost of a membership to a decent country club
Dude, on average I spend less than $25/month on games period and still have more games than I have time to play said games. (And that isn't for lack of money to spend. I could afford it).
No one game can justify $25/month in mandatory subscription costs. We have yet to see anything of that quality in the general gaming market, much less the MMO market. So I repeat my statement. That game better come with icecream and strippers. And while it's at it, it had best do my taxes for me too; maybe then I'd have more time to get my money's worth on the subscription.
Huh? If I played a game for an hour a day that would be less than a dollar an hour. My take on value is apparently quite different than yours. Heck, for the cost of a lunch I could get a months gaming.. unlimited time played? That's a heck of a deal. .
Yeah these guys and their entitlement mentality will call those who spend money on a hobby they enjoy "whales" "fanbois" "or a million other names. Video gaming is one of the cheapest form of entertainment $/hr and they still cry about spending money it's crazy.
Drivel. Nothing to do with entitlement.
Would you pay $50 a month for your game? Yes? - excellent. What about $100 a month? No! Why not? Less than a cup of coffee a day. Sheesh you must have an entitlement mentality! And if you OK with $100 just make it a bigger number. At some point "we" can all say that YOU have an entitlement mentality.
I am totally with Aeander and others in this thread. It has nothing to do with "entitlement"; it has everything to do with "value for money". Which is subjective.
If a game - probably a niche game for a small group - provides what they want then they might be more than happy to pay $25. May have to be more if the niche is small. As long as they see it as providing value no problem. So maybe the OP will get lucky
However. A game that provides "the same" at a higher cost will have a problem. Especially when people can pick up b2p games for the price of a sub, or subscribe to a game streaming service for less. Especially if the sub is providing no new content.
The amount of a sub doesn't matter. That business model is pretty much dead because of the market saturation. No one is going to pay a monthly fee for any game at this point. Back in the early days you had few choices, so you picked a game and that's what you played. Either you were an EQ player or a DAOC player or whatever. Now people bounce around from one game to another so the developers cash grab off the initial hype and then move on just like the players. Everything is about pre-orders and crowdfunding and not much about making solid games for the long term. Some older games like WoW and Lineage have long time established players, but almost no games released lately have been able to maintain any significant player base with a pure monthly sub business model. They always switch to F2P or B2P.
You lost me at the amount of sub doesn't matter. The business model is not dead because of saturation. In fact back in 2000+ you had Ragnarok, Lineage, Asheron Call, Everquest, Ultima Online, Diablo II, Anarchy Online and many other MMORPG's.
Competition is not the problem. If your product is great it will create itself a market naturally, if it's bad well, then people like you will make themselves believe whatever excuses to ignore the fact that their product was a failure. Blaming WOW for example was one of the excuses I kept hearing.
World of Warcraft came after FFXI, after Star Wars Galaxies and Guild Wars 1 launched next year. These are just some of the greatest games we also know through the MMORPG history, and just imagine what else there was in between those. EVE ONLINE came also year before World of Warcraft.
Most games today have failed to maintain monthly sub business models because they plainly sucked, it's as simply put. In fact they've sucked so much that it's been 5 years and 1 month since I've spent $ for a new product. The sub model is the dream model for many of these MMO's, but when their products are flawed, when customers see what they get for what they're paying, they simply don't stay for too long.
Budgets play a great role in delivering a quality product, but MMORPG's also require people with skills and brains in developing them.
You lost me at the amount of sub doesn't matter. The business model is not dead because of saturation. In fact back in 2000+ you had Ragnarok, Lineage, Asheron Call, Everquest, Ultima Online, Diablo II, Anarchy Online and many other MMORPG's.
Competition is not the problem. If your product is great it will create itself a market naturally, if it's bad well, then people like you will make themselves believe whatever excuses to ignore the fact that their product was a failure. Blaming WOW for example was one of the excuses I kept hearing.
World of Warcraft came after FFXI, after Star Wars Galaxies and Guild Wars 1 launched next year. These are just some of the greatest games we also know through the MMORPG history, and just imagine what else there was in between those. EVE ONLINE came also year before World of Warcraft.
Most games today have failed to maintain monthly sub business models because they plainly sucked, it's as simply put. In fact they've sucked so much that it's been 5 years and 1 month since I've spent $ for a new product. The sub model is the dream model for many of these MMO's, but when their products are flawed, when customers see what they get for what they're paying, they simply don't stay for too long.
Budgets play a great role in delivering a quality product, but MMORPG's also require people with skills and brains in developing them.
You realize WOW is pretty much what killed SWG right? That's what I find funny in these types of posts today, where were you folks in 2004-05? Mostly in WOW, which is what caused so many bad decisions on behalf of existing games. YOu didn't want those deeper games then, you left them for WOW, now all of a sudden those older designs are worth 25 bucks a month... hilarious to me. And yes I am one of the original types of WOW haters... The ones that watched their communities leave for that dumbed down crap that didn't require as much "reading"....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You lost me at the amount of sub doesn't matter. The business model is not dead because of saturation. In fact back in 2000+ you had Ragnarok, Lineage, Asheron Call, Everquest, Ultima Online, Diablo II, Anarchy Online and many other MMORPG's.
Competition is not the problem. If your product is great it will create itself a market naturally, if it's bad well, then people like you will make themselves believe whatever excuses to ignore the fact that their product was a failure. Blaming WOW for example was one of the excuses I kept hearing.
World of Warcraft came after FFXI, after Star Wars Galaxies and Guild Wars 1 launched next year. These are just some of the greatest games we also know through the MMORPG history, and just imagine what else there was in between those. EVE ONLINE came also year before World of Warcraft.
Most games today have failed to maintain monthly sub business models because they plainly sucked, it's as simply put. In fact they've sucked so much that it's been 5 years and 1 month since I've spent $ for a new product. The sub model is the dream model for many of these MMO's, but when their products are flawed, when customers see what they get for what they're paying, they simply don't stay for too long.
Budgets play a great role in delivering a quality product, but MMORPG's also require people with skills and brains in developing them.
You realize WOW is pretty much what killed SWG right? That's what I find funny in these types of posts today, where were you folks in 2004-05? Mostly in WOW, which is what caused so many bad decisions on behalf of existing games. YOu didn't want those deeper games then, you left them for WOW, now all of a sudden those older designs are worth 25 bucks a month... hilarious to me.
The problem with SWG wasn't the sandbox format or old school play style, it was the lack of sandbox content introduced over time to keep things interesting (which ironically we ended up getting much later into the NGE), the introduction of an alpha class, and the multiple overhauls of the existing combat system which was far more enjoyable and unique than the redesigns but needed some gear and buff balancing and skill functionality fixes. Couple that with server instability and a general feeling of, "where the fuck is this game going with all these needless overhauls when all we asked for was balance and some new content" and you've got a recipe for mass exodus.
So don't just blame the sandbox failing the consumer, blame the developer failing scoop the cat shit out of it. At the time, WoW was NOT a deeper game which many realized, but did offer new content and an unparalleled polish that players were seeking. It was shiny and new, and did a lot of things well. It was a good game and probably deserved to steal away so many SWG players, because while the game had so much potential John Smedley had no idea what to do with it.
A lot of my guildies who left for WoW eventually stepped off the gear treadmill a few months into the end game and tried to go back to SWG but by then there was this whole new combat system and the game felt completely different. I remember them saying (about WoW) that the economy was phony, the crafting was shallow and meaningless, and, "all you do is grind dungeons to get some bullshit so you can grind another dungeon to get more bullshit, and once you have the top bullshit there's nothing else to do."
So don't just blame the sandbox failing the consumer, blame the developer failing scoop the cat shit out of it. At the time, WoW was NOT a deeper game which many realized, but did offer new content and an unparalleled polish that players were seeking. It was shiny and new, and did a lot of things well. It was a good game and probably deserved to steal away so many SWG players, because while the game had so much potential John Smedley had no idea what to do with it.
A lot of my guildies who left for WoW eventually stepped off the gear treadmill a few months into the end game and tried to go back to SWG but by then there was this whole new combat system and the game felt completely different. I remember them saying (about WoW) that the economy was phony, the crafting was shallow and meaningless, and, "all you do is grind dungeons to get some bullshit so you can grind another dungeon to get more bullshit, and once you have the top bullshit there's nothing else to do."
The problem with SWG was no one wanted to play it after games like WOW released, Up until that point it had a good string of patches, the JTL expansion which brought with it new crafting professions/options was still rather fresh... Then WOW hit and people started leaving by the guild full, leading to major overhauls to streamline things and make them far more simple like the competition was offering. That's the way i see it anyway. Hence why I find so much irony in these discussions today. As for SWG's issues, that's what you get with deep games with lots of systems in play..
And yes I was there to see some of those people come back in shock and horror about all of the gutting, and I wanted to bitch slap them for that reaction as I had never left. They wanted WOW that's what devs have given them ever since.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So don't just blame the sandbox failing the consumer, blame the developer failing scoop the cat shit out of it. At the time, WoW was NOT a deeper game which many realized, but did offer new content and an unparalleled polish that players were seeking. It was shiny and new, and did a lot of things well. It was a good game and probably deserved to steal away so many SWG players, because while the game had so much potential John Smedley had no idea what to do with it.
A lot of my guildies who left for WoW eventually stepped off the gear treadmill a few months into the end game and tried to go back to SWG but by then there was this whole new combat system and the game felt completely different. I remember them saying (about WoW) that the economy was phony, the crafting was shallow and meaningless, and, "all you do is grind dungeons to get some bullshit so you can grind another dungeon to get more bullshit, and once you have the top bullshit there's nothing else to do."
The problem with SWG was no one wanted to play it after games like WOW released, Up until that point it had a good string of patches, the JTL expansion which brought with it new crafting professions/options was still rather fresh... Then WOW hit and people started leaving by the guild full, leading to major overhauls to streamline things and make them far more simple like the competition was offering. That's the way i see it anyway. Hence why I find so much irony in these discussions today. As for SWG's issues, that's what you get with deep games with lots of systems in play..
And yes I was there to see some of those people come back in shock and horror about all of the gutting, and I wanted to bitch slap them for that reaction as I had never left. They wanted WOW that's what devs have given them ever since.
If they came back, which game did they really want in the end?
My son did that. Loved SWG but left for WoW, loved WoW for a while then wanted to go back to SWG. And hated what they did to it. He still hasn't found an MMO he can stick with, and still talks about how great SWG was and how he wishes he could find something like that.
quite honestly i would pay 25$ sub for some of the games already. If they stop being pay 2 win.
The Op just like to brag he never spent any money, when people like me are paying for him.
That's the truth for f2p. Someone else is paying.
Yeah, I think the industry has missed to turn. Whatever the sort of game, if it's great and they keep it up and keep it fresh, people will pay for quality. Especially something that they want to spend so much time on.
Take any other hobby, fishing, golf, whatever, and millions of people pay more than an MMO to do their favorite past time.
So don't just blame the sandbox failing the consumer, blame the developer failing scoop the cat shit out of it. At the time, WoW was NOT a deeper game which many realized, but did offer new content and an unparalleled polish that players were seeking. It was shiny and new, and did a lot of things well. It was a good game and probably deserved to steal away so many SWG players, because while the game had so much potential John Smedley had no idea what to do with it.
A lot of my guildies who left for WoW eventually stepped off the gear treadmill a few months into the end game and tried to go back to SWG but by then there was this whole new combat system and the game felt completely different. I remember them saying (about WoW) that the economy was phony, the crafting was shallow and meaningless, and, "all you do is grind dungeons to get some bullshit so you can grind another dungeon to get more bullshit, and once you have the top bullshit there's nothing else to do."
The problem with SWG was no one wanted to play it after games like WOW released, Up until that point it had a good string of patches, the JTL expansion which brought with it new crafting professions/options was still rather fresh... Then WOW hit and people started leaving by the guild full, leading to major overhauls to streamline things and make them far more simple like the competition was offering. That's the way i see it anyway. Hence why I find so much irony in these discussions today. As for SWG's issues, that's what you get with deep games with lots of systems in play..
And yes I was there to see some of those people come back in shock and horror about all of the gutting, and I wanted to bitch slap them for that reaction as I had never left. They wanted WOW that's what devs have given them ever since.
If they came back, which game did they really want in the end?
My son did that. Loved SWG but left for WoW, loved WoW for a while then wanted to go back to SWG. And hated what they did to it. He still hasn't found an MMO he can stick with, and still talks about how great SWG was and how he wishes he could find something like that.
By then what did it really matter? WOW was an astounding success and everything else was eating the crumbs left from what was. Your son and others like him as well as those of us still playing our old games were a substantial minority. Money talks after all and those old games weren't getting it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Why do people assume a payment model have anything to do with gameplay?
if you want a $25 sub, play any F2P title and throw $25 at them every month. Or light in on fire - same difference. That won't make the F2P game suddenly any better (or worse).
I remember when EQ had their "premium" sub for like $20/mo. Those people got to play on the premium server, and the only real difference was that there were more "live events" driven by GMs. It didn't last long, because it didn't really do much to differentiate itself from the regular subscription.
When the cash shop comes out with a new costume, daaaahling... I buy three!
Muh, Muhuhuh... I'm the MMO nouveau riche, don't you know?
Arguing and calling people entitled over a measly $25 a month, what a joke you people are.
Here's some clues:
If you spend $25 a month on an MMO... it doesn't mean you're rich! If you don't want to spend $25 a month on an MMO... it doesn't make you poor!
If you can't drop $5000 a month on useless cash shop items, then YOU'RE the one crying for your entitlement!
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I never understood the mindset that thinks that if something is more expensive then it must be good.....The reason why there are no $25 a month MMOs is that none of them are worth that.....THere aren't even any worth $15 a month imo and the public seems to agree with this as there are hardly any P2P games left.
@Theocritus. This at least tells us that we are lacking the talent, the ability to create the product despite having the tools, technology and funding available. The reason why I would be willing to spend $25 a month is because at least the funding is not the issue for such product.
@Theocritus. This at least tells us that we are lacking the talent, the ability to create the product despite having the tools, technology and funding available. The reason why I would be willing to spend $25 a month is because at least the funding is not the issue for such product.
So you think that the reason these highly experienced, world-class game developers haven't made a game that you think is worth $25 a month is because they lack the talent.
Have you considered that maybe a game that would be worth $25 a month to you would have to be so niche, that they couldn't gather an audience large enough to support it (regardless of how much those individuals are paying).
It is a delicate balance. One which marketing and financial experts have devoted a fair amount of time to.
So don't just blame the sandbox failing the consumer, blame the developer failing scoop the cat shit out of it. At the time, WoW was NOT a deeper game which many realized, but did offer new content and an unparalleled polish that players were seeking. It was shiny and new, and did a lot of things well. It was a good game and probably deserved to steal away so many SWG players, because while the game had so much potential John Smedley had no idea what to do with it.
A lot of my guildies who left for WoW eventually stepped off the gear treadmill a few months into the end game and tried to go back to SWG but by then there was this whole new combat system and the game felt completely different. I remember them saying (about WoW) that the economy was phony, the crafting was shallow and meaningless, and, "all you do is grind dungeons to get some bullshit so you can grind another dungeon to get more bullshit, and once you have the top bullshit there's nothing else to do."
The problem with SWG was no one wanted to play it after games like WOW released, Up until that point it had a good string of patches, the JTL expansion which brought with it new crafting professions/options was still rather fresh... Then WOW hit and people started leaving by the guild full, leading to major overhauls to streamline things and make them far more simple like the competition was offering. That's the way i see it anyway. Hence why I find so much irony in these discussions today. As for SWG's issues, that's what you get with deep games with lots of systems in play..
And yes I was there to see some of those people come back in shock and horror about all of the gutting, and I wanted to bitch slap them for that reaction as I had never left. They wanted WOW that's what devs have given them ever since.
SWG suffered from playablity and for me at least optimization. It just played horrible on my computer. The clean UI and combat and gneral playabilty in WoW made other games seem 20 years old. It offered an escape from the old grind heavy games which had gotten stale. Just like questing is stale right now.
@Theocritus. This at least tells us that we are lacking the talent, the ability to create the product despite having the tools, technology and funding available. The reason why I would be willing to spend $25 a month is because at least the funding is not the issue for such product.
So you think that the reason these highly experienced, world-class game developers haven't made a game that you think is worth $25 a month is because they lack the talent.
Have you considered that maybe a game that would be worth $25 a month to you would have to be so niche, that they couldn't gather an audience large enough to support it (regardless of how much those individuals are paying).
It is a delicate balance. One which marketing and financial experts have devoted a fair amount of time to.
I don't think it's a niche or lack of talent. Thousands of people screaming for a good game for over a decade is not a lack of market or only a niche.
To be honest, I don't think talent has to do with why this is happening. I think too much management and non-gamer suits are making the decisions in the design of the games and telling the developers what to do, instead of letting the developers decide for themselves. That is why we see so many games released with crash bugs. That is why we see so many games released when they are only 25% ready. That is why we see advertising for a game that hasn't even been created yet. In my opinion, as long as this unprofessionalism is allowed, no game will ever be worth $25 a month.
So if you want to blame someone, blame the people who give it to you. Not the people who are told to create it, how to create it, what to create, and when it will be done.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Developers need a shield from bad managers and high level suits.
I partially agree, but video games are still a multi-billion dollar industry and growing. Upper management knows what they're doing. They're making games that people are buying. Just because we don't like a healthy bulk of them, doesn't make us right. We're a minority and clearly, the mass public is perfectly happy with the way things are going.
My hope (my plan) is to aim for a niche market and hope that it can grow from within to facilitate a larger paradigm shift.
Comments
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Would you pay $50 a month for your game? Yes? - excellent. What about $100 a month? No! Why not? Less than a cup of coffee a day. Sheesh you must have an entitlement mentality! And if you OK with $100 just make it a bigger number. At some point "we" can all say that YOU have an entitlement mentality.
I am totally with Aeander and others in this thread. It has nothing to do with "entitlement"; it has everything to do with "value for money". Which is subjective.
If a game - probably a niche game for a small group - provides what they want then they might be more than happy to pay $25. May have to be more if the niche is small. As long as they see it as providing value no problem. So maybe the OP will get lucky
However. A game that provides "the same" at a higher cost will have a problem. Especially when people can pick up b2p games for the price of a sub, or subscribe to a game streaming service for less. Especially if the sub is providing no new content.
It is about value not entitlement.
Competition is not the problem. If your product is great it will create itself a market naturally, if it's bad well, then people like you will make themselves believe whatever excuses to ignore the fact that their product was a failure. Blaming WOW for example was one of the excuses I kept hearing.
World of Warcraft came after FFXI, after Star Wars Galaxies and Guild Wars 1 launched next year. These are just some of the greatest games we also know through the MMORPG history, and just imagine what else there was in between those. EVE ONLINE came also year before World of Warcraft.
Most games today have failed to maintain monthly sub business models because they plainly sucked, it's as simply put. In fact they've sucked so much that it's been 5 years and 1 month since I've spent $ for a new product. The sub model is the dream model for many of these MMO's, but when their products are flawed, when customers see what they get for what they're paying, they simply don't stay for too long.
Budgets play a great role in delivering a quality product, but MMORPG's also require people with skills and brains in developing them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So don't just blame the sandbox failing the consumer, blame the developer failing scoop the cat shit out of it. At the time, WoW was NOT a deeper game which many realized, but did offer new content and an unparalleled polish that players were seeking. It was shiny and new, and did a lot of things well. It was a good game and probably deserved to steal away so many SWG players, because while the game had so much potential John Smedley had no idea what to do with it.
A lot of my guildies who left for WoW eventually stepped off the gear treadmill a few months into the end game and tried to go back to SWG but by then there was this whole new combat system and the game felt completely different. I remember them saying (about WoW) that the economy was phony, the crafting was shallow and meaningless, and, "all you do is grind dungeons to get some bullshit so you can grind another dungeon to get more bullshit, and once you have the top bullshit there's nothing else to do."
And yes I was there to see some of those people come back in shock and horror about all of the gutting, and I wanted to bitch slap them for that reaction
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My son did that. Loved SWG but left for WoW, loved WoW for a while then wanted to go back to SWG. And hated what they did to it. He still hasn't found an MMO he can stick with, and still talks about how great SWG was and how he wishes he could find something like that.
Once upon a time....
The Op just like to brag he never spent any money, when people like me are paying for him.
That's the truth for f2p. Someone else is paying.
Take any other hobby, fishing, golf, whatever, and millions of people pay more than an MMO to do their favorite past time.
Once upon a time....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
if you want a $25 sub, play any F2P title and throw $25 at them every month. Or light in on fire - same difference. That won't make the F2P game suddenly any better (or worse).
I remember when EQ had their "premium" sub for like $20/mo. Those people got to play on the premium server, and the only real difference was that there were more "live events" driven by GMs. It didn't last long, because it didn't really do much to differentiate itself from the regular subscription.
When the cash shop comes out with a new costume, daaaahling... I buy three!
Muh, Muhuhuh... I'm the MMO nouveau riche, don't you know?
Arguing and calling people entitled over a measly $25 a month, what a joke you people are.
Here's some clues:
If you spend $25 a month on an MMO... it doesn't mean you're rich!
If you don't want to spend $25 a month on an MMO... it doesn't make you poor!
If you can't drop $5000 a month on useless cash shop items, then YOU'RE the one crying for your entitlement!
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Have you considered that maybe a game that would be worth $25 a month to you would have to be so niche, that they couldn't gather an audience large enough to support it (regardless of how much those individuals are paying).
It is a delicate balance. One which marketing and financial experts have devoted a fair amount of time to.
May be a good single player game.
Definitely a good bottle of wine ($25 is cheap!).
But MMO? Not for me.
My hope (my plan) is to aim for a niche market and hope that it can grow from within to facilitate a larger paradigm shift.