I dont think the question is 'should it be hard to pvp people who dont want to' I think the question is 'why is it possible in the first place, specifically what design decision was made where that made some level of sense' and in addition why would you force pvp player to pve for the first 45 levels? that sounds like the most idiotic of design choices ever
It allows a player to learn the game without being killed 24/7. I actually think it was a pretty good decision if they wanted the ability to OWPvP. There are people who enjoy PvP that don't want to be ganked at low level.
so you think that there WILL be PVP players willing to grind for 50 levels so that they can pvp?
ok well my hunch is not so much
I love pvp and I'm willing to grind however many hours there are. I loved Lineage 2 for example. I liked the pve aspect that fueled the pvp aspect.
edit: I'm going to agree with the poster above that the pve part has been a huge help getting me more comfortable with the combos.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I dont think the question is 'should it be hard to pvp people who dont want to' I think the question is 'why is it possible in the first place, specifically what design decision was made where that made some level of sense' and in addition why would you force pvp player to pve for the first 45 levels? that sounds like the most idiotic of design choices ever
It allows a player to learn the game without being killed 24/7. I actually think it was a pretty good decision if they wanted the ability to OWPvP. There are people who enjoy PvP that don't want to be ganked at low level.
so you think that there WILL be PVP players willing to grind for 50 levels so that they can pvp?
ok well my hunch is not so much
Don't they currently grind through PvE content to cap in order to PvP? Most popular MMO's don't have any serious PvP below the cap. The game isn't designed purely for PvP anyway, it has a lot of content for other types of players. You can do a lot of stuff without bothering to level up and those players won't have to worry about PvP because of the system in place.
This isn't just a PvE-centric player gripe. I am pretty certain that PvP-centric players would be equally peeved if the initial 50 levels of any game were all PvP-oriented only to transform itself into an entirely PvE-centric experience at level 50 and beyond. This is an intentional and flawed game design mechanic simply developed to attain maximum bottom dollar profit potential at the expense of a gaming demographic that is very passionate about the genre. It is manipulative in nature and will only result in alienating their market base leading to the further erosion of any good-will currently left for the genre in the eyes of its consumers.
I love pvp and I'm willing to grind however many hours there are. I loved Lineage 2 for example. I liked the pve aspect that fueled the pvp aspect.
edit: I'm going to agree with the poster above that the pve part has been a huge help getting me more comfortable with the combos.
i feel compelled to ask a question. Not a question to make a point but a question out of ignornance.
Arent there MMO or stong multiplayer games that have the same interesting aspects to it but dont require to to grind to pvp?
if not, do you think the market place could use one
"Maybe?"
Let's take me for example. I'm not interested in mobas, not interested the military shooters, I prefer a world, I really enjoy combat.
Mount and Blade is not much of a world but I like the thrust of their combat.
As I've mentioned elsewhere I prefer sieges. So one might say "why not join Elder Scrolls Online (I already play) and just play in Cyrodiil?
Well, those sieges are flipping keeps. It's non-stop and there is no "pride in ownership" and no lengthy "x clan has held y castle for months" type thing.
So sieging non-stop would get tiring after a while.
To my taste it should be "an event".
Additionally, as I said, I enjoy combat so don't mind "grinding" as I don't see it as grind. Some player have likened the Elder Scrolls games to "grind" and I think that's an odd way of looking at it. One is going through an area and there are enemies so "take them out". That's how I look at fighting in mmo's.
But many players don't go that far and they just look at it as a necessary evil. Or just evil. Oh sure, some like it but I think most don't.
So would a game work without any grind that allowed one to pvp competitively out of the box? Probably. But I'm sure there are players who want to "build" a character and want that character to be unique.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
How about we just say this. The game is different in terms of what most players are use to. It may fail, and it may not. I feel like some of you argue as if you were children. We don't know the fate of this game yet, nothing is certain as of right now.
I dont think the question is 'should it be hard to pvp people who dont want to' I think the question is 'why is it possible in the first place, specifically what design decision was made where that made some level of sense' and in addition why would you force pvp player to pve for the first 45 levels? that sounds like the most idiotic of design choices ever
It allows a player to learn the game without being killed 24/7. I actually think it was a pretty good decision if they wanted the ability to OWPvP. There are people who enjoy PvP that don't want to be ganked at low level.
so you think that there WILL be PVP players willing to grind for 50 levels so that they can pvp?
ok well my hunch is not so much
Don't they currently grind through PvE content to cap in order to PvP? Most popular MMO's don't have any serious PvP below the cap. The game isn't designed purely for PvP anyway, it has a lot of content for other types of players. You can do a lot of stuff without bothering to level up and those players won't have to worry about PvP because of the system in place.
and hence my question, I brought up such suestions/points often when I played Darkfall but that was 6 years ago so not sure if it changed.
It seems to me that a good pvp game would allow you to pvp from day 1. Why have a game that is specifically designed for you to grind thru so you can get to the game play you want.
Also I question, no serious pvp before top level, really more often then not its just 'I want a fair playing field or an advantage and I am not wasting my time with pvp right now but instead grinding my skills' kinda thing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
A game in which you can reach within 10 hours the max. lvl, has virtually no team / role play, very simple character development,...appeals to a specific audience, it is a niche game, the same as Blade & Soul,...some people like it.Not so long ago I have read in GW2 forum, that one person had ask about the game. He was asking basic stuff, although he had a lvl 80 char. He said, he did not do anything beside pvp in the game, which surprised me, afterall - he had play a mmo, why he did not rather play battlefield 4 or something like that, I personally think that a game as battlefield, call of duty,..but with swords, bows,... would be quite popular:).
A game in which you can reach within 10 hours the max. lvl, has virtually no team / role play, very simple character development,...appeals to a specific audience, it is a niche game, the same as Blade & Soul,...some people like it.Not so long ago I have read in GW2 forum, that one person had ask about the game. He was asking basic stuff, although he had a lvl 80 char. He said, he did not do anything beside pvp in the game, which surprised me, afterall - he had play a mmo, why he did not rather play battlefield 4 or something like that, I personally think that a game as battlefield, call of duty,..but with swords, bows,... would be quite popular:).
see that just leaves me with this question
if you can max in 10 hours why bother writing all the code for that 'adventure' its at best just an extended tutorial. just start everyone at max. done
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
and hence my question, I brought up such suestions/points often when I played Darkfall but that was 6 years ago so not sure if it changed.
It seems to me that a good pvp game would allow you to pvp from day 1. Why have a game that is specifically designed for you to grind thru so you can get to the game play you want.
Also I question, no serious pvp before top level, really more often then not its just 'I want a fair playing field or an advantage and I am not wasting my time with pvp right now but instead grinding my skills' kinda thing
A good PvP ONLY game would allow PvP from day one but this game isn't only PvP.
A game in which you can reach within 10 hours the max. lvl, has virtually no team / role play, very simple character development,...appeals to a specific audience, it is a niche game, the same as Blade & Soul,...some people like it.Not so long ago I have read in GW2 forum, that one person had ask about the game. He was asking basic stuff, although he had a lvl 80 char. He said, he did not do anything beside pvp in the game, which surprised me, afterall - he had play a mmo, why he did not rather play battlefield 4 or something like that, I personally think that a game as battlefield, call of duty,..but with swords, bows,... would be quite popular:).
see that just leaves me with this question
if you can max in 10 hours why bother writing all the code for that 'adventure' its at best just an extended tutorial. just start everyone at max. done
Sean, I think I've answered that question in every single one of my last 5 posts in this thread. The reason they code in those 10 hours of PvE game play is to reel in the PvE-centric player dollars. It's all about the bottom dollar.
A game in which you can reach within 10 hours the max. lvl, has virtually no team / role play, very simple character development,...appeals to a specific audience, it is a niche game, the same as Blade & Soul,...some people like it.Not so long ago I have read in GW2 forum, that one person had ask about the game. He was asking basic stuff, although he had a lvl 80 char. He said, he did not do anything beside pvp in the game, which surprised me, afterall - he had play a mmo, why he did not rather play battlefield 4 or something like that, I personally think that a game as battlefield, call of duty,..but with swords, bows,... would be quite popular:).
see that just leaves me with this question
if you can max in 10 hours why bother writing all the code for that 'adventure' its at best just an extended tutorial. just start everyone at max. done
Originally I believe BDO was level 1 to OW FFA PvP but got pushed forward to a higher level so people wouldn't just leave due to being PK'ed all the time.
A game in which you can reach within 10 hours the max. lvl, has virtually no team / role play, very simple character development,...appeals to a specific audience, it is a niche game, the same as Blade & Soul,...some people like it.Not so long ago I have read in GW2 forum, that one person had ask about the game. He was asking basic stuff, although he had a lvl 80 char. He said, he did not do anything beside pvp in the game, which surprised me, afterall - he had play a mmo, why he did not rather play battlefield 4 or something like that, I personally think that a game as battlefield, call of duty,..but with swords, bows,... would be quite popular:).
see that just leaves me with this question
if you can max in 10 hours why bother writing all the code for that 'adventure' its at best just an extended tutorial. just start everyone at max. done
Sean, I think I've answered that question in every single one of my last 5 posts in this thread. The reason they code in those 10 hours of PvE game play is to reel in the PvE-centric player dollars. It's all about the bottom dollar.
fair enough sorry I wasnt part of that conversation.
There are a few issues with that logic though.
1. the pve dollars last 10 hours? what do pve players do after 10 hours? 2. it still suggests the developer would make a LOT more money if they made two different versions of the same game
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
A game in which you can reach within 10 hours the max. lvl, has virtually no team / role play, very simple character development,...appeals to a specific audience, it is a niche game, the same as Blade & Soul,...some people like it.Not so long ago I have read in GW2 forum, that one person had ask about the game. He was asking basic stuff, although he had a lvl 80 char. He said, he did not do anything beside pvp in the game, which surprised me, afterall - he had play a mmo, why he did not rather play battlefield 4 or something like that, I personally think that a game as battlefield, call of duty,..but with swords, bows,... would be quite popular:).
see that just leaves me with this question
if you can max in 10 hours why bother writing all the code for that 'adventure' its at best just an extended tutorial. just start everyone at max. done
Sean, I think I've answered that question in every single one of my last 5 posts in this thread. The reason they code in those 10 hours of PvE game play is to reel in the PvE-centric player dollars. It's all about the bottom dollar.
1. the pve dollars last 10 hours? what do pve players do after 10 hours?
They quit.
... only to be followed a few months later by a dead and barren game world. History has proven time and again that non-consensual OWPvP is a death knell for an MMORPG.
1. the pve dollars last 10 hours? what do pve players do after 10 hours?
They quit.
... only to be followed a few months later by a dead and barren game world. History has proven time and again that non-consensual OWPvP is a death knell for an MMORPG.
Rinse/repeat.
game developers need to remove the head from the a.
I think a lot of this started with wow and even EQ2. they kept piling on more and more levels more and more regions and people wanted to get to those 'end game' quicker and quicker and before you knew it you could get thru what used to be 6 months of content in just 10 hours.
The problem though is the developer for the NEXT game just took that exact forumla and ran with it without looking at it history or how it could be improved on
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Sorry but... your opinion has little weight if you judge a game that you have never played.
"This movie sucks!" "Have you seen it?" "No." *walks away thinking something not very nice about the other person.
A more apt comparison would be "Its a Roles Royce I havent driven one" but I have driven a car before.Other than the 'thrill' of driving an expensive car what else can a RR do for me that a Honda or Buick or Ford cant?
You are making his point.
Unless you have ever driven a Rolls Royce ... you would never know.
It has four wheels and goes on the road, because it has a special name and cost more money is meaningless. I have driven ferraris, aston martins, Lamborghinis and more than a few 'luxury' cars, guess what theyre all just cars. I know damn sure that this game isnt THAt much different from every other MMO out there to think it is something special. Until one goes through time when it reaches 88 MPH theyre all just cars. Just like these games are just MMOs with the same shit every other game has or has had with some nicer graphics and the same expected shelf life, which is about 30 days away.
A game in which you can reach within 10 hours the max. lvl, has virtually no team / role play, very simple character development,...appeals to a specific audience, it is a niche game, the same as Blade & Soul,...some people like it.Not so long ago I have read in GW2 forum, that one person had ask about the game. He was asking basic stuff, although he had a lvl 80 char. He said, he did not do anything beside pvp in the game, which surprised me, afterall - he had play a mmo, why he did not rather play battlefield 4 or something like that, I personally think that a game as battlefield, call of duty,..but with swords, bows,... would be quite popular:).
see that just leaves me with this question
if you can max in 10 hours why bother writing all the code for that 'adventure' its at best just an extended tutorial. just start everyone at max. done
There is just so much misinformation about this game it is astounding. Sadly a lot of the bad information seems to be spread intentionally by people with some agenda and then those words are taken up as facts by other people who have not even played the game.
Sorry but... your opinion has little weight if you judge a game that you have never played.
"This movie sucks!" "Have you seen it?" "No." *walks away thinking something not very nice about the other person.
A more apt comparison would be "Its a Roles Royce I havent driven one" but I have driven a car before.Other than the 'thrill' of driving an expensive car what else can a RR do for me that a Honda or Buick or Ford cant?
You are making his point.
Unless you have ever driven a Rolls Royce ... you would never know.
It has four wheels and goes on the road, because it has a special name and cost more money is meaningless. I have driven ferraris, aston martins, Lamborghinis and more than a few 'luxury' cars, guess what theyre all just cars. I know damn sure that this game isnt THAt much different from every other MMO out there to think it is something special. Until one goes through time when it reaches 88 MPH theyre all just cars. Just like these games are just MMOs with the same shit every other game has or has had with some nicer graphics and the same expected shelf life, which is about 30 days away.
Congratulations! You have given us an apt account of just about everything in life that has an alternate way of doing or experiencing things. Why eat anything else when eating rice, beans and chicken will get you through life no different than eating every other food on earth? Why drink Michelobe beer when you can drink Heineken beer? Why sleep on a bed, when you can sleep on the floor? Why live in a nice house when you can live in a shitty house? Why yearn to date a supermodel when you can date an equally gorgeous local girl who won't be as stuck up and high maintenance? Need I go on? ....
There is a huge difference between driving a Rolls Royce and driving a Ford. Just because they both get you from point A to point B doesn't mean there is no difference between the two. The same applies with just about everything else in life that results in accomplishing a same objective. Variety is the spice of life.
Its like EVERY new game. It seems like there is a shit ton to do, then once you do it (a few times) you realize it isnt all that in depth. Its just different.
A few of these small server games like ARK, Life is Feudal< WURM (pocket version) all seem like theyre so in depth and have so much to do and learn, but after a couple weeks you reach a point where you have learned a lot, built a lot of stuff have a decent base and then you look around and its like 'now what'? PvP. That is what BDO sounds like, except BDO doesn thave all the cool stuff those other games have but it does have some of it and it has NPCs and it has questing. So it has a little bit of everything but in the end the only thing to do after you have done 'everything else' is PvP. Those types of games dont have along future.
The games I mentioned do well because there are multiple servers rerolling all the time with different rule sets so people can 'star over' every few weeks if they want to. ARK is also getting updated constantly and it has different maps and a multitude of mods to keep people interested. Full blown MMOs dont have that luxury.
But 'fail' is a broad word and means alot of things to a lot of people. Since its buy to play and they will make a ton of money up front then I dont think fail is a term I would use.
''Aye, it's sadly always the same story each release... A bunch of people who obviously haven't played the game spamming misinformation. ''
''There is just so much misinformation about this game it is astounding. Sadly a lot of the bad information seems to be spread intentionally by people with some agenda and then those words are taken up as facts by other people who have not even played the game. In this case here is a thread from the BDO forum that shows you a little of what it can be like to actually play the game:
misinformation? I think BDO did amazing job with marketing,..hype,..so much about ''misinformation.'' I have no agenda to sabotage a video game, maybe you take all this to serious? Such videos ( ) are genuinely trying to explain how exceptionally funny is to fish in BDO. How exceptionally funny is the crafting system,.. I understand that people who like a specific product will praise it,...but otherwise there is no need for self-proclaimed video game experts, which will explain to other ''noobs'' what is funny,... and what is not. This game was hyped above the lvl of Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls Online,...thus suitable are expectations. Yeah, the game has good graphics, but in my opinion is the game by everything else on the lvl of an average f2p game. If you like this game, great, have fun with it,... and yes I had try out BDO,
Secondly if I am '' rude'', I also tried other ''upcoming next gen mmo'' which are coming to the west, BDO is the weakest of them even in graphics.
I noticed many people use the word "sandbox" to justify a game that lacks enough PVE content. Black Desert is one of them.
No it has TONS of pve related stuff.. People are just too lazy or want "end game" PVE content. Lack of end game pve =/= lack of PVE content. It's idiots that think in terms of WoW like games where you just rush to end game and run the same crap repeatedly as being some kind of "beefy" end game content. I have more quests than i know what to do with 90% of the time and this isn't a game about rush rush rush to get to some raid/dungeon treadmill...
If it's like CBT2 44, if it's like korea 49. The 49 would be better because there is a quest before you can reach 50.
That quote is from the beginning of the thread posted in Feb. close to the end which was posted today they're saying 45 for pvp and the removal of the enlightenment quest that was required for lvl 50. But everyone knows the game is still in development which means it's capable of going through lots of changes over the months as they work out any problems.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
edit: I'm going to agree with the poster above that the pve part has been a huge help getting me more comfortable with the combos.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Arent there MMO or stong multiplayer games that have the same interesting aspects to it but dont require to to grind to pvp?
if not, do you think the market place could use one
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
What if they also enjoy other aspects of the game?
This isn't just a PvE-centric player gripe. I am pretty certain that PvP-centric players would be equally peeved if the initial 50 levels of any game were all PvP-oriented only to transform itself into an entirely PvE-centric experience at level 50 and beyond. This is an intentional and flawed game design mechanic simply developed to attain maximum bottom dollar profit potential at the expense of a gaming demographic that is very passionate about the genre. It is manipulative in nature and will only result in alienating their market base leading to the further erosion of any good-will currently left for the genre in the eyes of its consumers.
Let's take me for example. I'm not interested in mobas, not interested the military shooters, I prefer a world, I really enjoy combat.
Mount and Blade is not much of a world but I like the thrust of their combat.
As I've mentioned elsewhere I prefer sieges. So one might say "why not join Elder Scrolls Online (I already play) and just play in Cyrodiil?
Well, those sieges are flipping keeps. It's non-stop and there is no "pride in ownership" and no lengthy "x clan has held y castle for months" type thing.
So sieging non-stop would get tiring after a while.
To my taste it should be "an event".
Additionally, as I said, I enjoy combat so don't mind "grinding" as I don't see it as grind. Some player have likened the Elder Scrolls games to "grind" and I think that's an odd way of looking at it. One is going through an area and there are enemies so "take them out". That's how I look at fighting in mmo's.
But many players don't go that far and they just look at it as a necessary evil. Or just evil. Oh sure, some like it but I think most don't.
So would a game work without any grind that allowed one to pvp competitively out of the box? Probably. But I'm sure there are players who want to "build" a character and want that character to be unique.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It seems to me that a good pvp game would allow you to pvp from day 1. Why have a game that is specifically designed for you to grind thru so you can get to the game play you want.
Also I question, no serious pvp before top level, really more often then not its just 'I want a fair playing field or an advantage and I am not wasting my time with pvp right now but instead grinding my skills' kinda thing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
if you can max in 10 hours why bother writing all the code for that 'adventure' its at best just an extended tutorial. just start everyone at max. done
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Sean, I think I've answered that question in every single one of my last 5 posts in this thread. The reason they code in those 10 hours of PvE game play is to reel in the PvE-centric player dollars. It's all about the bottom dollar.
Originally I believe BDO was level 1 to OW FFA PvP but got pushed forward to a higher level so people wouldn't just leave due to being PK'ed all the time.
So what is wrong with that picture?
Higher level PK all the time they leave anyway.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
There are a few issues with that logic though.
1. the pve dollars last 10 hours? what do pve players do after 10 hours?
2. it still suggests the developer would make a LOT more money if they made two different versions of the same game
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
They quit.
... only to be followed a few months later by a dead and barren game world. History has proven time and again that non-consensual OWPvP is a death knell for an MMORPG.
Rinse/repeat.
I think a lot of this started with wow and even EQ2. they kept piling on more and more levels more and more regions and people wanted to get to those 'end game' quicker and quicker and before you knew it you could get thru what used to be 6 months of content in just 10 hours.
The problem though is the developer for the NEXT game just took that exact forumla and ran with it without looking at it history or how it could be improved on
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
In this case here is a thread from the BDO forum that shows you a little of what it can be like to actually play the game:
http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/25256-17-hours-played-level-15-got-a-raft-and-pole-i-made-myself-life-is-good/
Congratulations! You have given us an apt account of just about everything in life that has an alternate way of doing or experiencing things. Why eat anything else when eating rice, beans and chicken will get you through life no different than eating every other food on earth? Why drink Michelobe beer when you can drink Heineken beer? Why sleep on a bed, when you can sleep on the floor? Why live in a nice house when you can live in a shitty house? Why yearn to date a supermodel when you can date an equally gorgeous local girl who won't be as stuck up and high maintenance? Need I go on? ....
There is a huge difference between driving a Rolls Royce and driving a Ford. Just because they both get you from point A to point B doesn't mean there is no difference between the two. The same applies with just about everything else in life that results in accomplishing a same objective. Variety is the spice of life.
Its like EVERY new game. It seems like there is a shit ton to do, then once you do it (a few times) you realize it isnt all that in depth. Its just different.
A few of these small server games like ARK, Life is Feudal< WURM (pocket version) all seem like theyre so in depth and have so much to do and learn, but after a couple weeks you reach a point where you have learned a lot, built a lot of stuff have a decent base and then you look around and its like 'now what'? PvP. That is what BDO sounds like, except BDO doesn thave all the cool stuff those other games have but it does have some of it and it has NPCs and it has questing. So it has a little bit of everything but in the end the only thing to do after you have done 'everything else' is PvP. Those types of games dont have along future.
The games I mentioned do well because there are multiple servers rerolling all the time with different rule sets so people can 'star over' every few weeks if they want to. ARK is also getting updated constantly and it has different maps and a multitude of mods to keep people interested. Full blown MMOs dont have that luxury.
But 'fail' is a broad word and means alot of things to a lot of people. Since its buy to play and they will make a ton of money up front then I dont think fail is a term I would use.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/3ycemd/good_example_that_shows_how_broken_pvp_can_be_in/