I'm sure that once it established that the allegations around Star Traders are in fact true (i.e the artwork is removed, damages are awarded, etc.), CIG will in fact distance themselves from the project.
But it's not going to happen based on mere allegations.
I've known David Ladyman for many years, and he's always been a pretty straight up guy. Certainly not a shenanigans type. No clue about the artist in question. And again, in my opinion Roberts is an overblown bozo, but this is not something I'd lay at his doorstep.
Why does David work for such an overblown bozo? Doesn't it get tiresome?
David worked for Steve Jackson, so he can work for anyone....
Probably decent pay at CIG for him, and those jobs do not grow on trees. But it likely does get tiresome.
AFAIK, CIG don't pay particularly well - at least according to themselves. IIRC, slightly below average - though I forget the details.
Steve Jackson is also a terrible person?
Is that also based on the opinions of friends - or have you actually met him?
Wasn't he on one of those Will Wheaton board-game shows? He seemed a pretty decent guy to me.
I've known David Ladyman for many years, and he's always been a pretty straight up guy. Certainly not a shenanigans type. No clue about the artist in question. And again, in my opinion Roberts is an overblown bozo, but this is not something I'd lay at his doorstep.
Why does David work for such an overblown bozo? Doesn't it get tiresome?
David worked for Steve Jackson, so he can work for anyone....
Probably decent pay at CIG for him, and those jobs do not grow on trees. But it likely does get tiresome.
AFAIK, CIG don't pay particularly well - at least according to themselves. IIRC, slightly below average - though I forget the details.
Steve Jackson is also a terrible person?
Is that also based on the opinions of friends - or have you actually met him?
Wasn't he on one of those Will Wheaton board-game shows? He seemed a pretty decent guy to me.
Jackson is pretty awful to work for. Some of the same micromanagement issues as Roberts, but without the faux people skills. I've known him (and a lot of prople who worked for him) for decades. Hell, I did some playtest sessions for GURPS! He has always been fine to me, but I never worked for him. Forewarned.
David does not do the type of gruntwork that idealistic grads can be found for cheap.
While I am no fan of Roberts, he is keeping a lot of game design folks employed, so that is a benefit. No matter how tiresome it gets....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I've known David Ladyman for many years, and he's always been a pretty straight up guy. Certainly not a shenanigans type. No clue about the artist in question. And again, in my opinion Roberts is an overblown bozo, but this is not something I'd lay at his doorstep.
Why does David work for such an overblown bozo? Doesn't it get tiresome?
David worked for Steve Jackson, so he can work for anyone....
Probably decent pay at CIG for him, and those jobs do not grow on trees. But it likely does get tiresome.
AFAIK, CIG don't pay particularly well - at least according to themselves. IIRC, slightly below average - though I forget the details.
Steve Jackson is also a terrible person?
Is that also based on the opinions of friends - or have you actually met him?
Wasn't he on one of those Will Wheaton board-game shows? He seemed a pretty decent guy to me.
Jackson is pretty awful to work for. Some of the same micromanagement issues as Roberts, but without the faux people skills. I've known him (and a lot of prople who worked for him) for decades. Hell, I did some playtest sessions for GURPS! He has always been fine to me, but I never worked for him. Forewarned.
David does not do the type of gruntwork that idealistic grads can be found for cheap.
While I am no fan of Roberts, he is keeping a lot of game design folks employed, so that is a benefit. No matter how tiresome it gets....
So, you haven't actually worked for Jackson and yet you know he's terrible to work for?
You don't have a problem with him, personally, but you've let other people dictate how to feel about him when it comes to that with which you have no personal experience.
Just like you've done with Chris Roberts - as you haven't worked with him either.
While I know this must seem a trivial observation to you, I still hope you can sense how it might seem to others.
I mean, I have a very negative opinion of Derek Smart - but that's because I've exchanged with him personally, and I've seen - with my own eyes - the kind of things he's saying.
So, maybe you could provide a single actual quote from Chris Roberts to indicate he's a terrible boss? Maybe you could come up with a single instance where YOU, personally, have interacted with him and where he's proven himself to be so terrible?
@DKLond see we aren't allowed to make observations of Roberts because we use sources that don't want their names used. For some reason people refuse to listen to these people.
@DKLond see we aren't allowed to make observations of Roberts because we use sources that don't want their names used. For some reason people refuse to listen to these people.
You sure sound like you're making a lot of observations, though.
If you want people to take your word for something you're very unlikely to know - I think a good first step is to make sense in your claims.
That doesn't really seem to be your strong suit, though. Just saying.
@DKLond see we aren't allowed to make observations of Roberts because we use sources that don't want their names used. For some reason people refuse to listen to these people.
You sure sound like you're making a lot of observations, though.
If you want people to take your word for something you're very unlikely to know - I think a good first step is to make sense in your claims.
That doesn't really seem to be your strong suit, though. Just saying.
Well you did say if you didn't meet/work with Roberts you can't comment how he is right? Which in other posts made, no one can comment or report any news if it comes from whistleblowers. So that means no gaming site or anyone else can't comment on anything unless you meet/work for Roberts!
@DKLond see we aren't allowed to make observations of Roberts because we use sources that don't want their names used. For some reason people refuse to listen to these people.
You sure sound like you're making a lot of observations, though.
If you want people to take your word for something you're very unlikely to know - I think a good first step is to make sense in your claims.
That doesn't really seem to be your strong suit, though. Just saying.
Well you did say if you didn't meet/work with Roberts you can't comment how he is right? Which in other posts made, no one can comment or report any news if it comes from whistleblowers. So that means no gaming site or anyone else can't comment on anything unless you meet/work for Roberts!
No, that's not what I said at all.
Roberts is a relatively public person and everything he says or does in public is something we can assume is real - as it seems quite unlikely that it's an actor impersonating him.
People who're clearly biased and irrationally against a computer game - like you - claiming to have sources saying something, without providing a shred of evidence, is - shall we say - not convincing.
Not to me, at least.
Wild claims often need to have valid sources to make them seem convincing.
I'm guessing you wouldn't trust someone who said they have a "source" claiming Chris Roberts is a fantastic developer who knows exactly what he's doing, right?
I'm guessing you wouldn't trust someone who said they have a "source" claiming Chris Roberts is a fantastic developer who knows exactly what he's doing, right?
I know I wouldn't unless they had a mountain of verifiable proof because his past endeavours point to the exact opposite of that statement
I'm guessing you wouldn't trust someone who said they have a "source" claiming Chris Roberts is a fantastic developer who knows exactly what he's doing, right?
I know I wouldn't unless they had a mountain of verifiable proof because his past endeavours point to the exact opposite of that statement
Also supported by a mountain of verifiable proof right?
I'm guessing you wouldn't trust someone who said they have a "source" claiming Chris Roberts is a fantastic developer who knows exactly what he's doing, right?
I know I wouldn't unless they had a mountain of verifiable proof because his past endeavours point to the exact opposite of that statement
Yeah, Wing Commander, Privateer, Strike Commander, Freelancer, Starlancer, Wing Commander 3, Wing Commander 4 were all terrible games
I know, I know - he didn't actually do any of the work involved, right? It's all just rumours and hear-say. Chris and Erin never actually did any real work.
Somehow, the teams he was in charge of managed to release one fantastic space game after another, and some crazy suits just kept financing those games and kept putting Chris in charge.
I mean, not doing anything despite being listed as lead designer, lead developer, director, producer and so on - is pretty likely.
Derek Smart said Chris essentially "stole" Wing Commander from him - even though Chris apparently never did any real work on it.
I'm guessing you wouldn't trust someone who said they have a "source" claiming Chris Roberts is a fantastic developer who knows exactly what he's doing, right?
I know I wouldn't unless they had a mountain of verifiable proof because his past endeavours point to the exact opposite of that statement
Yeah, Wing Commander, Privateer, Strike Commander, Freelancer, Starlancer, Wing Commander 3, Wing Commander 4 were all terrible games
I know, I know - he didn't actually do any of the work involved, right? It's all just rumours and hear-say. Chris and Erin never actually did any real work.
Somehow, the teams he was in charge of managed to release one fantastic space game after another, and some crazy suits just kept financing those games and kept putting Chris in charge.
Privateer carries CR name for concept because it is "Wing Commander: Privateer". Here are the credits for Privateer. http://www.mobygames.com/game/wing-commander-privateer Notice no CR or ER in "design" or "programming".
Look at credits for Freelancer. http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/freelancer I know CR started work on it, but he is not credited for other than an advisory position for the latter 3 years of the game's production.
Starlancer, similar deal. They signed their names to it as "producers" so it attracted the Wing Commander franchise crowd. No, they're not credited with real work on it.
So, that leaves Wing Commander ( of course ), significant work on Strike Commander, and "Director" ( ambiguous title ) and "Story" on Wing Commander III.
I swear I'm going to bookmark this post, for the event people bring it up again.
edit: DKLond correction is right. Chris Roberts credited at "Exec Producer, Director of Film Production" on WC4.
I'm guessing you wouldn't trust someone who said they have a "source" claiming Chris Roberts is a fantastic developer who knows exactly what he's doing, right?
I know I wouldn't unless they had a mountain of verifiable proof because his past endeavours point to the exact opposite of that statement
Yeah, Wing Commander, Privateer, Strike Commander, Freelancer, Starlancer, Wing Commander 3, Wing Commander 4 were all terrible games
I know, I know - he didn't actually do any of the work involved, right? It's all just rumours and hear-say. Chris and Erin never actually did any real work.
Somehow, the teams he was in charge of managed to release one fantastic space game after another, and some crazy suits just kept financing those games and kept putting Chris in charge.
Privateer carries CR name for concept because it is "Wing Commander: Privateer". Here are the credits for Privateer. http://www.mobygames.com/game/wing-commander-privateer Notice no CR or ER in "design" or "programming".
Look at credits for Freelancer. http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/freelancer I know CR started work on it, but he is not credited for other than an advisory position for the latter 3 years of the game's production.
Starlancer, similar deal. They signed their names to it as "producers" so it attracted the Wing Commander franchise crowd. No, they're not credited with real work on it.
So, that leaves Wing Commander ( of course ), significant work on Strike Commander, and "Director" ( ambiguous title ) and "Story" on Wing Commander III.
I swear I'm going to bookmark this post, for the event people bring it up again.
I never claimed he was the lead or a designer on all the games. So please stop your fantasy of embellishment. I gave examples of his roles in a variety of games - and you've just established that I'm correct.
My point is that he has OBVIOUSLY done a ton of work in a variety of ways.
As for the final credits for Freelancer, a lot of messy things happened during production of that game - so we'll never know exactly what he did or didn't do or what developing the concept or doing the initial work actually means.
He came up with the concept for Privateer and it was made with a modified version of the engine Chris had a big hand in developing for Wing Commander.
He also directed part of Wing Commander 4 - and he was the executive producer, so you need to look closer.
For some reason, you've also ignored Starlancer and his role as executive producer on that game.
It would be great if you could bookmark the post for the next time people conjure up the fantasy that Chris Roberts never did anything significant in terms of gaming.
Again, I'm not saying he made all those games himself. I said he was a part of every single one - and they were all fantastic.
While we're at it - let's post his complete resume when it comes to games:
Hey, I stand by my post and citations. If you want to make his contributions more grandiose than glorified endorsements on most of those products, if that what makes you feel better about things, I'm not going to be able to change that, had I half the people in those credits I referenced telling you otherwise.
edit: I edited Dklond mention of CR as Exec Producer and Director of Film Production, with relevant credits link", after DKlond's correction.
....had I half the people in those credits I referenced telling you otherwise.
If these people personally tell me from their first hand experience that Chris Roberts did (almost) nothing, I will believe them.
If an unknown poster on the internet claims that, based on no verifyable evidence whatsoever ... i will not believe it.
Have fun
You or I could be "Executive Producer" of anything, were we to invest a couple million ( returned upon project success with royalties ) or have the project based on an IP we created. The reply wasn't to "how many game carry Chris Robert's name". The reply was to, "on how many projects carrying his name did Chris Roberts contribute measurable effort". You've intentionally conflated the two concepts, they're not the same.
Hey, I stand by my post and citations. If you want to make his contributions more grandiose than glorified endorsements on most of those products, if that what makes you feel better about things, I'm not going to be able to change that, had I half the people in those credits I referenced telling you otherwise.
edit: I edited Dklond mention of CR as Exec Producer and Director of Film Production, with relevant credits link", after DKlond's correction.
Don't think their point is to make his contribution look more grandiose than it was, but more to say he had a role of some significance than some wish people to believe.
Think the underline point is, Chris Roberts has worked and been part of some really successful games.
Hey, I stand by my post and citations. If you want to make his contributions more grandiose than glorified endorsements on most of those products, if that what makes you feel better about things, I'm not going to be able to change that, had I half the people in those credits I referenced telling you otherwise.
edit: I edited Dklond mention of CR as Exec Producer and Director of Film Production, with relevant credits link", after DKlond's correction.
Don't think their point is to make his contribution look more grandiose than it was, but more to say he had a role of some significance than some wish people to believe.
Think the underline point is, Chris Roberts has worked and been part of some really successful games.
He has been a part. I just don't agree with what I see as the embellishment and conflation.
Trouble is measurable effort is up for grabs. His role in Star Citizen is much the same, and he clearly has his hands in everything. People like to moan about his micro-management so it's hard to say he's not contributing measurable effort unless you want to refer purely to code output.
....had I half the people in those credits I referenced telling you otherwise.
If these people personally tell me from their first hand experience that Chris Roberts did (almost) nothing, I will believe them.
If an unknown poster on the internet claims that, based on no verifyable evidence whatsoever ... i will not believe it.
Have fun
You or I could be "Executive Producer" of anything, were we to invest a couple million ( returned upon project success with royalties ) or have the project based on an IP we created. The reply wasn't to "how many game carry Chris Robert's name". The reply was to, "on how many projects carrying his name did Chris Roberts contribute measurable effort". You've intentionally conflated the two concepts, they're not the same.
So, what you're saying is that these credits mean nothing at all - and we could all be anything if we're rich enough or did some trivial little thing like create a game and IP.
The point of linking to his credits was, then..... not there at all?
Have you any idea how little sense you're making?
You can't have it both ways my friend.
Either credits mean something - and as such, Chris Roberts have worked on a LOT of games in a LOT of key roles - or they mean nothing, in which case what you're saying is useless and all we have is a bunch of nothing and we can never actually know anything about this.
Comments
But it's not going to happen based on mere allegations.
Steve Jackson is also a terrible person?
Is that also based on the opinions of friends - or have you actually met him?
Wasn't he on one of those Will Wheaton board-game shows? He seemed a pretty decent guy to me.
David does not do the type of gruntwork that idealistic grads can be found for cheap.
While I am no fan of Roberts, he is keeping a lot of game design folks employed, so that is a benefit. No matter how tiresome it gets....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
You don't have a problem with him, personally, but you've let other people dictate how to feel about him when it comes to that with which you have no personal experience.
Just like you've done with Chris Roberts - as you haven't worked with him either.
While I know this must seem a trivial observation to you, I still hope you can sense how it might seem to others.
I mean, I have a very negative opinion of Derek Smart - but that's because I've exchanged with him personally, and I've seen - with my own eyes - the kind of things he's saying.
So, maybe you could provide a single actual quote from Chris Roberts to indicate he's a terrible boss? Maybe you could come up with a single instance where YOU, personally, have interacted with him and where he's proven himself to be so terrible?
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
If you want people to take your word for something you're very unlikely to know - I think a good first step is to make sense in your claims.
That doesn't really seem to be your strong suit, though. Just saying.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
Roberts is a relatively public person and everything he says or does in public is something we can assume is real - as it seems quite unlikely that it's an actor impersonating him.
People who're clearly biased and irrationally against a computer game - like you - claiming to have sources saying something, without providing a shred of evidence, is - shall we say - not convincing.
Not to me, at least.
Wild claims often need to have valid sources to make them seem convincing.
I'm guessing you wouldn't trust someone who said they have a "source" claiming Chris Roberts is a fantastic developer who knows exactly what he's doing, right?
I know, I know - he didn't actually do any of the work involved, right? It's all just rumours and hear-say. Chris and Erin never actually did any real work.
Somehow, the teams he was in charge of managed to release one fantastic space game after another, and some crazy suits just kept financing those games and kept putting Chris in charge.
I mean, not doing anything despite being listed as lead designer, lead developer, director, producer and so on - is pretty likely.
Derek Smart said Chris essentially "stole" Wing Commander from him - even though Chris apparently never did any real work on it.
On and on.
Yeah, the evidence is strong!
Privateer carries CR name for concept because it is "Wing Commander: Privateer". Here are the credits for Privateer.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/wing-commander-privateer
Notice no CR or ER in "design" or "programming".
Look at credits for Freelancer.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/freelancer
I know CR started work on it, but he is not credited for other than an advisory position for the latter 3 years of the game's production.
Starlancer, similar deal. They signed their names to it as "producers" so it attracted the Wing Commander franchise crowd. No, they're not credited with real work on it.
Wing Commander IV doesn't carry his name at all, except for original Wing Commander concept.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/wing-commander-iv-the-price-of-freedom
So, that leaves Wing Commander ( of course ), significant work on Strike Commander, and "Director" ( ambiguous title ) and "Story" on Wing Commander III.
I swear I'm going to bookmark this post, for the event people bring it up again.
edit: DKLond correction is right. Chris Roberts credited at "Exec Producer, Director of Film Production" on WC4.
My point is that he has OBVIOUSLY done a ton of work in a variety of ways.
As for the final credits for Freelancer, a lot of messy things happened during production of that game - so we'll never know exactly what he did or didn't do or what developing the concept or doing the initial work actually means.
He came up with the concept for Privateer and it was made with a modified version of the engine Chris had a big hand in developing for Wing Commander.
He also directed part of Wing Commander 4 - and he was the executive producer, so you need to look closer.
For some reason, you've also ignored Starlancer and his role as executive producer on that game.
It would be great if you could bookmark the post for the next time people conjure up the fantasy that Chris Roberts never did anything significant in terms of gaming.
Again, I'm not saying he made all those games himself. I said he was a part of every single one - and they were all fantastic.
While we're at it - let's post his complete resume when it comes to games:
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,6555/
Games with a production-related role: 16
Games with a design-related role: 15
Games with a programming-related role: 11
As well as a variety of other roles in a variety of other games.
Try again
My eyes could be failing me but i could have sworn i have seen a "Chris Roberts" name on some of these game boxes......
And if someones' name makes it on the box .... nahhh.... totally insignifcant contribution ... because @Adjuvant1 said so .....
Have fun
edit: I edited Dklond mention of CR as Exec Producer and Director of Film Production, with relevant credits link", after DKlond's correction.
If an unknown poster on the internet claims that, based on no verifyable evidence whatsoever ... i will not believe it.
Have fun
Damn you verifiable evidence!!!!
Think the underline point is, Chris Roberts has worked and been part of some really successful games.
The point of linking to his credits was, then..... not there at all?
Have you any idea how little sense you're making?
You can't have it both ways my friend.
Either credits mean something - and as such, Chris Roberts have worked on a LOT of games in a LOT of key roles - or they mean nothing, in which case what you're saying is useless and all we have is a bunch of nothing and we can never actually know anything about this.
MAGA