Pantheon's original fanbase is what will keep this game operating. The flavor of the month crowd will not sustain a game outside of the mainstream without a massive marketing budget.
I think a shop that sells anything more than copies of the game, xfers, char slots etc, would be a fatal mistake for Pantheon in the long run.
I think Pantheon should have a fan store that sells things like shirts, hats, mugs, key chains, figurines and the like.
What if Pantheon adds a cosmetic-only purchase functionality, with items that cannot be earned in-game and paid for with RW cash? That is still a cash shop. That makes up about half or more of all the cash shops in games like PWI.
Selling is selling. Even though brown isn't black, they're both dark colors. Selling in a cash shop and selling in a pre-release market are equivalent.
This is just another case of this forum engaging in a semantic argument, while denying it is simply a semantic issue.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
What if Pantheon adds a cosmetic-only purchase functionality, with items that cannot be earned in-game and paid for with RW cash? That is still a cash shop. That makes up about half or more of all the cash shops in games like PWI.
Selling is selling. Even though brown isn't black, they're both dark colors. Selling in a cash shop and selling in a pre-release market are equivalent.
This is just another case of this forum engaging in a semantic argument, while denying it is simply a semantic issue.
Only if you redefine cash shop from what it currently means. Not all digital storefronts = cash shops. Stop trying to conflate the two, it's silly.
Every time a game sells cosmetics, that's one more missed opportunity to add something a player can earn in the game itself, which means the less players will be playing. It's a trade off, and cash shops are a gamble that sacrifices longevity of the game for short-term profits. Simply put, it's shady dealing, especially in a genre that is meant to provide a persistent world for players to enjoy for years at a time.
They're just selling thegame content just like Pantheon.
False.
How much do you want to bet that these items will be in a cash shop post launch (within 6 months) when the population levels out. So many mmos do this with pre-launch digital goods. They'll add it next to their additional character slots service as an account upgrade. Or sell the pieces individually.
I'm sure when the time comes and it appears in Pantheon. The fans of this mmo will just say "every mmo does it, it's no big deal and they don't sell power!".
it better not, that's why we are paying a sub. i'm pretty sure i read there will not be a cash shop and if they do that they better go B2P like ESO did.
Well remember, other mmos also said this. FF14 and WoW are B2P + Sub + CS. I know FF14 in the beginning said no cash shop, but that changed. My point was that if population dips (like every mmo experiences) this will be one of the first steps if it's not planned already. Personally, I wouldn't care but for those that are backing/following this with the hope and/or promise of no cash shop. Well, I hope they enjoy the game enough that once it comes out they won't care as long as they are entertained. It's inevitable.
No knock on this mmo. I hope it launches and is lots of fun. But I like to keep reality above my hopes and expectations.
well to be fair those are all high budget mmo's that have to make a lot of money to stay afloat. you are not telling me anything i don't know as i put the ESO example in my post.
but if VR was out to make a lot of money, they wouldn't be making a game like this to be honest lol
What if Pantheon adds a cosmetic-only purchase functionality, with items that cannot be earned in-game and paid for with RW cash? That is still a cash shop. That makes up about half or more of all the cash shops in games like PWI.
Selling is selling. Even though brown isn't black, they're both dark colors. Selling in a cash shop and selling in a pre-release market are equivalent.
This is just another case of this forum engaging in a semantic argument, while denying it is simply a semantic issue.
yes it would be considered a cash shop in my opinion but i hope they don't do that. if they sell you anything in game for real money that would be considered a cash shop to some degree.
i just think doing it for crowd funding purposes only shouldn't be considered a cash shop and even if you do consider it a cash shop that's not going to matter one bit when/if the game launches.
Myself I'm excited for a MMO that's doing B2P with a sub and no cash shop. I find it refreshing. Been a long time since everything you see in game will have been earned by a player somehow.
So no crowd funded or early access exclusives? No exclusive "collector" digital stuff with a premium box fee or pre-purchase? I haven't seen that since Lineage. EQ and EQ2 used to do that all the time. Same with LotRO, GW, and every MMO I've played since then. No digital extras for real money is a really rare thing.
Welcome to the new age of MMO shopping malls. Maybe they'll sell some of that Ruggsville fried chicken just for you. ;-)
Nanfoodle said they didn't have a cash shop. But they do have a cash shop, it's just on their website. It's so hard to have an honest real discussion about a game here when people post doublespeak crap like that.
Crowdfund packages with items is not a "cash shop." This is indeed doublespeak
If you're selling anything but game access it's a cash shop. It doesn't matter where you're selling it. This is just like the WoW and FF14 fanboys who bullshit about not having a cash shop.
You're just lying to yourselves and everyone else with your "alt-facts". It doesn't matter if the interface is in the game, on a website, or someplace else. RMT and microtransactions aren't dependent on the interface.
It's okay that they're doing it. I think MMOs, especially indie prerelease projects, need to look closely at how to monetize and fund. The traditional "one off" crowd funding campaign or methods AAA publishers use aren't going to work.
But be honest about what is happening and how it's happening. Nanfoodle is trying to sell the package as different, implying some underlying integrity that doesn't exist elsewhere, when it's not different. It's a hype lie. Stop lying.
Adding in game items to sweeten early access or types of packages (CE comes to mind) has never been considered a "cash shop." Both you and @Postlarval know this as individuals who have been around the genre for some time. If you want to look at them that way, fair enough, feelings and different views are of course subjective.
Many definitions have been argued as meaning something different, take the term MMORPG for example. This seems to be one of those times. If VR ever has a shop with items not included with access to the game then I would agree it's a cash shop.
Right, if you sell your RMT microtransactions outside of a "cash" "shop" then it's all okay and doesn't count (like if you pull out early).
It's always convenient when you get to pick and choose when the rules apply. So a coined termed mmorpg matters, but an actual definition of selling digital items for real cash is ambiguous and amorphous. When your pet project sells them it's understandable. When others do it you people are glad your game doesn't have a cash shop and you earn all items in game (except when you don't).
Fine, you guys have fun in your not cash shop microtransaction world. Keep that echo chamber going.
to me, if those items are available to purchase after the game launches, then it's a cash shop.
i don't see how that's the same as a cash shop
Snipped but NOT out of context. WTH??? You seem to be speaking contrary beliefs at the same time. ---------------------------------------------------- IMO when people speak out against cash shops they just mean the games where you get a leg up by paying money. Almost no one complains about selling items that dont affect game play.
Pantheon's original fanbase is what will keep this game operating. The flavor of the month crowd will not sustain a game outside of the mainstream without a massive marketing budget.
I think a shop that sells anything more than copies of the game, xfers, char slots etc, would be a fatal mistake for Pantheon in the long run.
I think Pantheon should have a fan store that sells things like shirts, hats, mugs, key chains, figurines and the like.
Exactly, and label them "Founders" in game when released
IMO when people speak out against cash shops they just mean the games where you get a leg up by paying money. Almost no one complains about selling items that dont affect game play.
So, you don't consider having the nicest costume or most interesting cosmetic pet as "a leg up". Others might. If that cosmetic is obtained from a transaction involving real cash for an in-game item, that is a cash shop, no matter how it is termed. People wish to differentiate a 'purchase' from a 'pledge reward', but if your bank account is lighter, you've paid for an e-item, no matter what you choose to call the interface that took your money. Semantics won't change that fact.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Snipped but NOT out of context. WTH??? You seem to be speaking contrary beliefs at the same time. ---------------------------------------------------- IMO when people speak out against cash shops they just mean the games where you get a leg up by paying money. Almost no one complains about selling items that dont affect game play.
read it again, i'm saying selling crowd funding packages that may or may not include in game items or benefits is not the same thing as having a cash shop post launch.
if those same or different in game items go up for sale post launch, then that's what makes it an in game cash shop IMO
frankly, it's silly to consider crowd funding packages the same as a cash shop but people always have an axe to grind with certain games so whatever.
IMO when people speak out against cash shops they just mean the games where you get a leg up by paying money. Almost no one complains about selling items that dont affect game play.
So, you don't consider having the nicest costume or most interesting cosmetic pet as "a leg up". Others might. If that cosmetic is obtained from a transaction involving real cash for an in-game item, that is a cash shop, no matter how it is termed. People wish to differentiate a 'purchase' from a 'pledge reward', but if your bank account is lighter, you've paid for an e-item, no matter what you choose to call the interface that took your money. Semantics won't change that fact.
There is no semantics. The items being given out are charged based click items. With limited charges. They will not impact the game long term. If they have some cosmetic effect again no big deal if you get the game Pantheon is. Much like in the days of EQ1, showing off where you have been and what you have earned will be a big part of the game. When people see your Bard in full Blue Lambent. People will be stopping to Ooo and ahhh. Also its not semantics if your smart enough to look at the big picture. Few toys handed out at launch to supporters, MMO meant to go on for 10 years + and all the thousands of types of gear that will be earned in game.
IMO when people speak out against cash shops they just mean the games where you get a leg up by paying money. Almost no one complains about selling items that dont affect game play.
So, you don't consider having the nicest costume or most interesting cosmetic pet as "a leg up". Others might. If that cosmetic is obtained from a transaction involving real cash for an in-game item, that is a cash shop, no matter how it is termed. People wish to differentiate a 'purchase' from a 'pledge reward', but if your bank account is lighter, you've paid for an e-item, no matter what you choose to call the interface that took your money. Semantics won't change that fact.
Semantics is redefining what people meant based on a technicality. When people speak out against cash shops and mean that you shouldnt get anything that makes you more powerful - that IS the meaning of cash shop as the term was used.
The funny thing about this thread is that the only people who seem to have a problem with cash shops are those trying to pretend it doesn't exist.
Some bizarre persecution complex...or something. Weird.
Dont have a problem with cash shops. I found GW2 did theirs very well. Want to try again? I find funny some in this thread dont know what a cash shop is lol
Dont have a problem with cash shops. I found GW2 did theirs very well. Want to try again? I find funny some in this thread dont know what a cash shop is lol
I have a problem with a cashshop + monthly fees, I pay so I wont see that.
Sure, GW2s cashshop is fine in a B2P game but not in aP2P game like Pantheon. You can't both keep the cake and eat it, at least not if you want me as your customer.
Pantheon with cashshop would be like EQ2 the last year before it went F2P. As I see it if they need more funds then $15 a month and box price they should just raise the monthly fee so we get all included.
Dont have a problem with cash shops. I found GW2 did theirs very well. Want to try again? I find funny some in this thread dont know what a cash shop is lol
I have a problem with a cashshop + monthly fees, I pay so I wont see that.
Sure, GW2s cashshop is fine in a B2P game but not in aP2P game like Pantheon. You can't both keep the cake and eat it, at least not if you want me as your customer.
Pantheon with cashshop would be like EQ2 the last year before it went F2P. As I see it if they need more funds then $15 a month and box price they should just raise the monthly fee so we get all included.
The funny thing about this thread is that the only people who seem to have a problem with cash shops are those trying to pretend it doesn't exist.
Some bizarre persecution complex...or something. Weird.
to me it's bizarre that people think selling crowd funding packages = cash shop
that's like saying every single crowd funded indie game that offers benefits for becoming a "backer" has a cash shop when we all know that's 100% false.
Dont have a problem with cash shops. I found GW2 did theirs very well. Want to try again? I find funny some in this thread dont know what a cash shop is lol
I have a problem with a cashshop + monthly fees, I pay so I wont see that.
Sure, GW2s cashshop is fine in a B2P game but not in aP2P game like Pantheon. You can't both keep the cake and eat it, at least not if you want me as your customer.
Pantheon with cashshop would be like EQ2 the last year before it went F2P. As I see it if they need more funds then $15 a month and box price they should just raise the monthly fee so we get all included.
Tonight on MMO News at 11: MMOs need money to exist. We'll have more on this story as it develops. And now Brian with sports.
And how would YOU propose they raise money on a continual basis? Its a very niche MMO so that $15 a month from the thousands playing wont pay for much.
THIS is why these indie MMOs are going to fail. People want them to be made but they dont want them to make money. I mean, what, did you think that MMOs are made by the MMO fairies with pixie dust and dreams?
I have a problem with a cashshop + monthly fees, I pay so I wont see that.
Sure, GW2s cashshop is fine in a B2P game but not in aP2P game like Pantheon. You can't both keep the cake and eat it, at least not if you want me as your customer.
Pantheon with cashshop would be like EQ2 the last year before it went F2P. As I see it if they need more funds then $15 a month and box price they should just raise the monthly fee so we get all included.
in other words, like wow's model lol
No, Wow is hardly everything included. For instance do it sell mounts and charge a rather large sum for changing your server. It is fine to charge a little for server transfers but they could at least give out 1 free every year...
And if VR needs $20 to keep stuff like that away that is fine.
to me it's bizarre that people think selling crowd funding packages = cash shop that's like saying every single crowd funded indie game that offers benefits for becoming a "backer" has a cash shop when we all know that's 100% false.
Indeed, giving out a bonus for people funding the development of a game is hardly a cashshop but it might be pay2win if you go totally over board and sell really expensive stuff that totally messes up the games balance. A few games have actually gone too far there but they fortunately few and Pantheon ain't one of them.
Dont have a problem with cash shops. I found GW2 did theirs very well. Want to try again? I find funny some in this thread dont know what a cash shop is lol
I have a problem with a cashshop + monthly fees, I pay so I wont see that.
Sure, GW2s cashshop is fine in a B2P game but not in aP2P game like Pantheon. You can't both keep the cake and eat it, at least not if you want me as your customer.
Pantheon with cashshop would be like EQ2 the last year before it went F2P. As I see it if they need more funds then $15 a month and box price they should just raise the monthly fee so we get all included.
You miss the context of the conversation. Go back and read it =-) Im very happy with Pantheon going B2P + Sub and no cash shop. GW2 Cash Shop worked well for that game and IMO was a very fair setup. I do hope VR sets up a shop with RL items, selling hats, shirts, coffee mugs, posters etc.
I have a problem with a cashshop + monthly fees, I pay so I wont see that.
Sure, GW2s cashshop is fine in a B2P game but not in aP2P game like Pantheon. You can't both keep the cake and eat it, at least not if you want me as your customer.
Pantheon with cashshop would be like EQ2 the last year before it went F2P. As I see it if they need more funds then $15 a month and box price they should just raise the monthly fee so we get all included.
Tonight on MMO News at 11: MMOs need money to exist. We'll have more on this story as it develops. And now Brian with sports.
And how would YOU propose they raise money on a continual basis? Its a very niche MMO so that $15 a month from the thousands playing wont pay for much.
THIS is why these indie MMOs are going to fail. People want them to be made but they dont want them to make money. I mean, what, did you think that MMOs are made by the MMO fairies with pixie dust and dreams?
The game is already decided as P2P and the team say on the official forum that they can go even (with salaries and so on) with 25K players paying that fee. I would link to it but it is for backers only.
How many P2P games without itemshop is there around? 3? 4? There are actually more then a few of us willing to pay for playing. The game is focused particularly on oldschool fans and the majority of us still prefer P2P.
Besides the monthly fees I expect them to use the same funding as EQ did for many years: selling expansions. And while you might not think much of EQ the game do have earned in rather much money in the 18 years it's been around, not Wow much but no-one besides Wow ever gotten Wow much.
I can see Pantheon having at least 100K paying customers and that is 4 times what they need, not all games are actually trying for millions and millions of players, if you want something free look elsewhere.
Comments
I think Pantheon should have a fan store that sells things like shirts, hats, mugs, key chains, figurines and the like.
Selling is selling. Even though brown isn't black, they're both dark colors. Selling in a cash shop and selling in a pre-release market are equivalent.
This is just another case of this forum engaging in a semantic argument, while denying it is simply a semantic issue.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Only if you redefine cash shop from what it currently means. Not all digital storefronts = cash shops. Stop trying to conflate the two, it's silly.
Every time a game sells cosmetics, that's one more missed opportunity to add something a player can earn in the game itself, which means the less players will be playing. It's a trade off, and cash shops are a gamble that sacrifices longevity of the game for short-term profits. Simply put, it's shady dealing, especially in a genre that is meant to provide a persistent world for players to enjoy for years at a time.
well to be fair those are all high budget mmo's that have to make a lot of money to stay afloat. you are not telling me anything i don't know as i put the ESO example in my post.
but if VR was out to make a lot of money, they wouldn't be making a game like this to be honest lol
no, someone labeled it as having a cash shop because they are selling packages for crowd funding purposes lol
yes it would be considered a cash shop in my opinion but i hope they don't do that. if they sell you anything in game for real money that would be considered a cash shop to some degree.
i just think doing it for crowd funding purposes only shouldn't be considered a cash shop and even if you do consider it a cash shop that's not going to matter one bit when/if the game launches.
This. Exactly this.
~~ postlarval ~~
Snipped but NOT out of context. WTH???
You seem to be speaking contrary beliefs at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------
IMO when people speak out against cash shops they just mean the games where you get a leg up by paying money. Almost no one complains about selling items that dont affect game play.
Dont know, did you have something to share on topic or are you one of the people confused as to what a cash shop is? =-D
Exactly, and label them "Founders" in game when released
So, you don't consider having the nicest costume or most interesting cosmetic pet as "a leg up". Others might. If that cosmetic is obtained from a transaction involving real cash for an in-game item, that is a cash shop, no matter how it is termed. People wish to differentiate a 'purchase' from a 'pledge reward', but if your bank account is lighter, you've paid for an e-item, no matter what you choose to call the interface that took your money. Semantics won't change that fact.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
read it again, i'm saying selling crowd funding packages that may or may not include in game items or benefits is not the same thing as having a cash shop post launch.
if those same or different in game items go up for sale post launch, then that's what makes it an in game cash shop IMO
frankly, it's silly to consider crowd funding packages the same as a cash shop but people always have an axe to grind with certain games so whatever.
There is no semantics. The items being given out are charged based click items. With limited charges. They will not impact the game long term. If they have some cosmetic effect again no big deal if you get the game Pantheon is. Much like in the days of EQ1, showing off where you have been and what you have earned will be a big part of the game. When people see your Bard in full Blue Lambent. People will be stopping to Ooo and ahhh. Also its not semantics if your smart enough to look at the big picture. Few toys handed out at launch to supporters, MMO meant to go on for 10 years + and all the thousands of types of gear that will be earned in game.
Semantics is redefining what people meant based on a technicality. When people speak out against cash shops and mean that you shouldnt get anything that makes you more powerful - that IS the meaning of cash shop as the term was used.
Some bizarre persecution complex...or something. Weird.
~~ postlarval ~~
Dont have a problem with cash shops. I found GW2 did theirs very well. Want to try again? I find funny some in this thread dont know what a cash shop is lol
I have a problem with a cashshop + monthly fees, I pay so I wont see that.
Sure, GW2s cashshop is fine in a B2P game but not in aP2P game like Pantheon. You can't both keep the cake and eat it, at least not if you want me as your customer.
Pantheon with cashshop would be like EQ2 the last year before it went F2P. As I see it if they need more funds then $15 a month and box price they should just raise the monthly fee so we get all included.
in other words, like wow's model lol
to me it's bizarre that people think selling crowd funding packages = cash shop
that's like saying every single crowd funded indie game that offers benefits for becoming a "backer" has a cash shop when we all know that's 100% false.
Tonight on MMO News at 11: MMOs need money to exist. We'll have more on this story as it develops. And now Brian with sports.
And how would YOU propose they raise money on a continual basis? Its a very niche MMO so that $15 a month from the thousands playing wont pay for much.
THIS is why these indie MMOs are going to fail. People want them to be made but they dont want them to make money. I mean, what, did you think that MMOs are made by the MMO fairies with pixie dust and dreams?
No, Wow is hardly everything included. For instance do it sell mounts and charge a rather large sum for changing your server. It is fine to charge a little for server transfers but they could at least give out 1 free every year...
And if VR needs $20 to keep stuff like that away that is fine.
Indeed, giving out a bonus for people funding the development of a game is hardly a cashshop but it might be pay2win if you go totally over board and sell really expensive stuff that totally messes up the games balance. A few games have actually gone too far there but they fortunately few and Pantheon ain't one of them.
You miss the context of the conversation. Go back and read it =-) Im very happy with Pantheon going B2P + Sub and no cash shop. GW2 Cash Shop worked well for that game and IMO was a very fair setup. I do hope VR sets up a shop with RL items, selling hats, shirts, coffee mugs, posters etc.
The game is already decided as P2P and the team say on the official forum that they can go even (with salaries and so on) with 25K players paying that fee. I would link to it but it is for backers only.
How many P2P games without itemshop is there around? 3? 4? There are actually more then a few of us willing to pay for playing. The game is focused particularly on oldschool fans and the majority of us still prefer P2P.
Besides the monthly fees I expect them to use the same funding as EQ did for many years: selling expansions. And while you might not think much of EQ the game do have earned in rather much money in the 18 years it's been around, not Wow much but no-one besides Wow ever gotten Wow much.
I can see Pantheon having at least 100K paying customers and that is 4 times what they need, not all games are actually trying for millions and millions of players, if you want something free look elsewhere.