Pay To Win is Bad

nerovergil

Real life is already pay to win, we dont want that in the game.

Cosmetic shop is the answer

and open pvp is pointless, i want sandbox pve like ragnarok online

Octagon7711

I have no problems with P2W in PvE.  If I have the money but not the time why can't I spend money to be even with someone who has lots of time to play.  Don't care for most PvP so that wouldn't effect me either.

Higherho

P2W sucks. Its like people paying for brain dumps to pass certification exams. P2W is the easy way and should not be allowed. However, companies make bank off it so sadly it's here to stay.

Quizzical

Game companies need to raise revenue somehow, and cosmetic items don't raise much.  So no, that's not the answer unless you want games to reduce their budgets by an order of magnitude or more.

Octagon7711

Companies love P2W which is why they always say it's not.

filmoret

Dude you think thats bad.  Virginia has a toll road that is pay to win.  Its one of the most disgusting things I have seen in a while.  So basically they produce bad roads then make you pay for the good roads.  So if you aren't willing to pay a high toll you have to sit in heavy traffic.

http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/227343072-story

aliven

Octagon7711 said:

I have no problems with P2W in PvE.  If I have the money but not the time why can't I spend money to be even with someone who has lots of time to play.  Don't care for most PvP so that wouldn't effect me either.

Why you should be even? 

Octagon7711

aliven said:

Octagon7711 said:

I have no problems with P2W in PvE.  If I have the money but not the time why can't I spend money to be even with someone who has lots of time to play.  Don't care for most PvP so that wouldn't effect me either.

Why you should be even? 

Say I want to play with my friend who has lots of time to play so he can grind out the in game money to buy a fast horse.  They also sale fast horses in the cash shop and it would take me a month to put 40 hours into the game to grind for one.  So I go to the cash shop and buy the fast horse and we explore the new quests in the new zones together in style.

Albatroes

Captain....I think that might be obvious...

iixviiiix

Quizzical said:

Game companies need to raise revenue somehow, and cosmetic items don't raise much.  So no, that's not the answer unless you want games to reduce their budgets by an order of magnitude or more.

It not the cosmetic item don't raise revenue ,
cosmetic item require more work and talent in design and art . That's why instead spend more time on honest labor , the developer open some online gamble casino with gamble P2W mechanic like item upgrade .

Basically , P2W developer are lazy people who run dishonest online gamble .

4507

I would prefer to not even have cosmetic microtransactions...

As for OWPvP, that's a seperate topic.

Wizardry

The ONLY thing i personally would accept from a cash shop is selling anything outside the game.

example trinkets or mini statue/figurines perhaps some meet n greet with the devs.The closest  i would allow to the game is if they want to sell players the chance to create a boss or even just a mob for the game or perhaps some reward items/gear but NOTHING for sale from the game in the cash shop.
Example nothing like what Landmark was trying to pull.If a player pays for the chance to design an Axe great but that Axe better not be in the cash shop.

Draemos

nerovergil said:

Real life is already pay to win, we dont want that in the game.

Cosmetic shop is the answer

and open pvp is pointless, i want sandbox pve like ragnarok online

I'd rather someone who is a professional that pays taxes and useful to society have an advantage over some useless 22 yr old living in their moms basement playing videogames 16 hours a day.  Neither one is inheriently more entitled, one is trading cash he earned with his time, and the other one is simply trading time.  Atleast the person paying cash is benefting the game's development.

Gdemami

There is no such thing as P2W...

Companies have all rights to sell anything for whatever price they see fit. Complaining they don't run business the way you approve is dumb.

Tiamat64

Pay-to-Win brings in more overall revenue in a shorter amount of time at the cost of the game's lifespan and player retention.  An F2P publishing company said so in a business presentation!

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

Tiamat64

DMKano said:

How do you "win" life?

Also name a single game where you pay and actually WIN the game?

Why is it so hard to just stick to descriptions that match what is really going on - pay for advantage, pay for convenience, or pay for faster progression?

At least those are real.

P2W is not.

Maybe because all of those take up way more syllables and a hell of a lot longer to type than "pay-to-win".

TENTING

I like the ESO Webstore model. Sure I cant afford everything in it and have to miss out on a lot of nice items, but I dont mind at all, it just makes the world more alive to look at, more diverse.
 Meeting someone on a mount I will never have, makes me enjoy the looks of it even more. Even better that some items are timelimited to obtain, keeps the world nuanced.
 I will be able to afford something nice one day.
And in my opinion its much more fun when players have different things, rather than all of us just looking the same and having our own finished Zoo or all tier wardrobe collection.

I like worlds than breathe this way, bringing in new things all the time, making the players and landscapes change over time.
 
 But I understand that vanity items are not really P2W. And if in theory we could buy a full last tier PvE or PvP set, it would kinda leave the game a bit short.
 
 Working ingame towards a nice set of competative gear is fun. Or well it can be fun, depending on the games designs ofcourse.

 But other than that, I dont have a huge issue with P2W, Id just not play the games that would tempt me to skip the journey ingame.
If I did that, I could imagine Id equip the gear, then park myself in the townsquare and ask myself, now what?  And probably log out.

( Reliant on whether I had played the other content ingame already, which Id likely have done, if Im at a lvl where I can equip a last tier set.) 

IsilithTehroth

If you are gaining an advantage in a game via in real life money and it makes it so you win; its pay 2 win no matter how you try to spin it. Its only the lazy casual market that was cashshops with p2w elements in, even though they are in a genre not designed for them. I'll be glad once the genre collapses and is born anew with old school elements(Already is happening just 2-3 years is when the games release). Let the casual player base go play Mobas.

Crusadecrusher

Tiamat64 said:

DMKano said:

How do you "win" life?

Also name a single game where you pay and actually WIN the game?

Why is it so hard to just stick to descriptions that match what is really going on - pay for advantage, pay for convenience, or pay for faster progression?

At least those are real.

P2W is not.

Maybe because all of those take up way more syllables and a hell of a lot longer to type than "pay-to-win".

And "P2W" TRIGGERS a special breed to come out of the woodwork to freak out about all these p2w games yet when asked they can't name any. 

gervaise1

filmoret said:

Dude you think thats bad.  Virginia has a toll road that is pay to win.  Its one of the most disgusting things I have seen in a while.  So basically they produce bad roads then make you pay for the good roads.  So if you aren't willing to pay a high toll you have to sit in heavy traffic.

http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/227343072-story

Is that Fox advocating for higher taxes? Or do they expect people to build roads for free?

SpottyGekko

gervaise1 said:

filmoret said:

Dude you think thats bad.  Virginia has a toll road that is pay to win.  Its one of the most disgusting things I have seen in a while.  So basically they produce bad roads then make you pay for the good roads.  So if you aren't willing to pay a high toll you have to sit in heavy traffic.

http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/227343072-story

Is that Fox advocating for higher taxes? Or do they expect people to build roads for free?

It seems the modern version of the "American Dream" is one where everyone has a job, wages are the highest in the world and consumer goods are the cheapest in the world.

It will forever remain a dream.

But I guess 1 out of 3 is not too bad...

Crusadecrusher

filmoret said:

Dude you think thats bad.  Virginia has a toll road that is pay to win.  Its one of the most disgusting things I have seen in a while.  So basically they produce bad roads then make you pay for the good roads.  So if you aren't willing to pay a high toll you have to sit in heavy traffic.

http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/227343072-story

This just sounds like a case of entitlement in the real world NOT P2W.  Those who don't pay the toll feel entitled and should be allowed to use that toll road for free.  Btw Virginia isn't the only place that has toll roads. 

Scot

P2W is now the way nearly all MMOs are designed. Ushered in on the back of F2P as we said it would be, if you don't have the level playing field that a subscription gives, MMOs were obviously going to slowly shift to P2W.

The cosmetic argument has seen so many variations, I was an advocate back in the day. But the nature of a cash shop is the same as a shop in the high street, it is not static. It wants to sell you more and more, with F2P that is the only source of income. First we had MMOs that started of with cash shops selling cosmetic items which then became game effecting items and then game breaking items.

Now cash shops start firmly in the game breaking stage. It was a matter of seeing what they could get away with and we let them get away with more and more. That said had we jumped ship, they were after a different bigger player base, so not playing them would likely not have stemmed the tide.

But as I always say it does not stop here. It never does, we saw casino gambling (lock boxes etc) become a mainstay of MMOs and if you think it ends there, think again. MMO F2P companies want to squeeze every pound of flesh out of you they can, any which way. That's the mentality that a cash shop gives a company, if you have a sub you think about its pricing level and the cost of new content. If you have a cash shop you are immediately orientated to sell everything, a costume, a game breaking sword, level up faster, play a gambling game, there is no end to it.

Muke

nerovergil said:

Real life is already pay to win, we dont want that in the game.

Cosmetic shop is the answer

and open pvp is pointless, i want sandbox pve like ragnarok online

"Personal opinion is personal."

filmoret

Crusadecrusher said:

filmoret said:

Dude you think thats bad.  Virginia has a toll road that is pay to win.  Its one of the most disgusting things I have seen in a while.  So basically they produce bad roads then make you pay for the good roads.  So if you aren't willing to pay a high toll you have to sit in heavy traffic.

http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/227343072-story

This just sounds like a case of entitlement in the real world NOT P2W.  Those who don't pay the toll feel entitled and should be allowed to use that toll road for free.  Btw Virginia isn't the only place that has toll roads. 

I didn't expect you to read the entire article but at least a few of the paragraphs.  The toll price increases as traffic increases.  So when you got heavy bumper to bumper traffic and its literally going to take you 2 hours to sit through it.  Or you can pay 30$ toll for a 10 mile highway and avoid it.  Can't you see how they can easily create traffic jams for the sole purpose of making that 10 mile highway sell better?  I mean it won't be that hard to invent really bad flowing roads for the purpose of making drivers pay that extra price.

Crusadecrusher

filmoret said:

Crusadecrusher said:

filmoret said:

Dude you think thats bad.  Virginia has a toll road that is pay to win.  Its one of the most disgusting things I have seen in a while.  So basically they produce bad roads then make you pay for the good roads.  So if you aren't willing to pay a high toll you have to sit in heavy traffic.

http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/227343072-story

This just sounds like a case of entitlement in the real world NOT P2W.  Those who don't pay the toll feel entitled and should be allowed to use that toll road for free.  Btw Virginia isn't the only place that has toll roads. 

I didn't expect you to read the entire article but at least a few of the paragraphs.  The toll price increases as traffic increases.  So when you got heavy bumper to bumper traffic and its literally going to take you 2 hours to sit through it.  Or you can pay 30$ toll for a 10 mile highway and avoid it.  Can't you see how they can easily create traffic jams for the sole purpose of making that 10 mile highway sell better?  I mean it won't be that hard to invent really bad flowing roads for the purpose of making drivers pay that extra price.

Now we jump to conpiracy theories...