isn't your normal game. A "bot" is effectively no different to an OPC or
NPC for that matter. They only way they will get lots of resources is
the same way we will, and they will be paying for each and every spark..
In addition, each "bot" needs all the same supplied as everyone else.
For all their effort, they will rely on other people for tools, food,
clothing etc, thus funding the player economy.
So no advantage to the gold seller above the player so far.. The
short of it: ANYONE, player or bot is potentially just as well placed to
sell their goods, but you're effectively cutting off your own economic
growth in game. If you keep it, perhaps you'd be better to hire NPCs
with it, at which stage you've inadvertantly beaten the bot at their own
game.
Beyond that, unlike many MMOs, you're not invincible in Elyria.
People will doubtless be looking for gold sellers. If word gets out,
they are potentially going to be ambushed, robbed, turfed out and unable
to deliver. If the transaction was a legally binding one, good luck to
them lol. If not, they will rapidly get a bad enough rep for the public
to learn to avoid them.
This is a game where the average player CAN intervene and stomp out those gold sellers. For that reason most of the community (who actually read the design notes fully, unlike the OP) are actively looking forward to spotting people trying to gold sell, just to gank their asses and rob them blind lol.
For the record I can almost guarantee I have a better understanding of what has been said about the game than most of the fans. You may disagree with my statements but to suggest I do not properly research these games is absurd.
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isn't your normal game. A "bot" is effectively no different to an OPC or
NPC for that matter. They only way they will get lots of resources is
the same way we will, and they will be paying for each and every spark..
In addition, each "bot" needs all the same supplied as everyone else.
For all their effort, they will rely on other people for tools, food,
clothing etc, thus funding the player economy.
So no advantage to the gold seller above the player so far.. The
short of it: ANYONE, player or bot is potentially just as well placed to
sell their goods, but you're effectively cutting off your own economic
growth in game. If you keep it, perhaps you'd be better to hire NPCs
with it, at which stage you've inadvertantly beaten the bot at their own
game.
Beyond that, unlike many MMOs, you're not invincible in Elyria.
People will doubtless be looking for gold sellers. If word gets out,
they are potentially going to be ambushed, robbed, turfed out and unable
to deliver. If the transaction was a legally binding one, good luck to
them lol. If not, they will rapidly get a bad enough rep for the public
to learn to avoid them.
This is a game where the average player CAN intervene and stomp out those gold sellers. For that reason most of the community (who actually read the design notes fully, unlike the OP) are actively looking forward to spotting people trying to gold sell, just to gank their asses and rob them blind lol.
Your argument sounds good in theory. But this isn't Call of Duty. There will be consequences for ganking in CoE (the actual extent is still unknown).
So if the average player were to go around stomping out all the gold sellers... it's hard to know what the repercussions would be on that player.
Secondly, gold sellers aren't stupid. They will take precautions so as not to be vulnerable when making a sale.
Every single game that I have played with a friend of mine has made him spend real money for ingame currency and items, regardless of what the game policy says. Never ever has be been banned for it.
He spend his dimes on the game, I spend my dimes on my travels and my wife. The choice is different. Yes we play alot together too and sure he is generally better equipped then me at the initial stages, but in the end it's about the same. So I feel good about still having my money where he spent them just to stay ahead a few months.
So let's not be naive to think: anti gold seller policy = "fair" for everyone.
Instead I agree with a previous poster... let them sell whatever they want just do not allow them to spam the chat! Let them have specific channels that will be allowed for sure chat spam, just not the general chat.
Then I can play the game the way I like it and those having nothing better to spend their money on, by all means spent it on the gold sellers.
Botting and other shit (which happens in all games basically) should still not be allowed.
But thats not what happened... as cash shops have shown clearly that people ARE willing to spend money to save time.
There is no denying that video game industry has changed the players perception to where cash shops are accepted by majority of playerbase.
RMT caters to people that dont mind spending money to enjoy their games.
they are not posers - they are your average players today, as people realize hey throwing cash to speed up progress works.
You can have most things if you are willing to spend money - not a very hard concept to understand either
When is a poser not a poser? When the average player poses. Nice alternative fact spin
And yup, you can buy almost everything... is a bought achievement worth just as much as one you earned?
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
isn't your normal game. A "bot" is effectively no different to an OPC or
NPC for that matter. They only way they will get lots of resources is
the same way we will, and they will be paying for each and every spark..
In addition, each "bot" needs all the same supplied as everyone else.
For all their effort, they will rely on other people for tools, food,
clothing etc, thus funding the player economy.
So no advantage to the gold seller above the player so far.. The
short of it: ANYONE, player or bot is potentially just as well placed to
sell their goods, but you're effectively cutting off your own economic
growth in game. If you keep it, perhaps you'd be better to hire NPCs
with it, at which stage you've inadvertantly beaten the bot at their own
game.
Beyond that, unlike many MMOs, you're not invincible in Elyria.
People will doubtless be looking for gold sellers. If word gets out,
they are potentially going to be ambushed, robbed, turfed out and unable
to deliver. If the transaction was a legally binding one, good luck to
them lol. If not, they will rapidly get a bad enough rep for the public
to learn to avoid them.
This is a game where the average player CAN intervene and stomp out those gold sellers. For that reason most of the community (who actually read the design notes fully, unlike the OP) are actively looking forward to spotting people trying to gold sell, just to gank their asses and rob them blind lol.
It doesn't work the way you think. I recall back in early L2 days gold farmers were all over Cruma tower.
Every now and then players would get together to kill them off. A red gold seller "hit squad" of high level characters would show up to clean everyone's clocks
Don't assume they can't or won't defend their business interests using the same means available to all players.
As they play more than most they could end up setting up a gold seller "nation" if there was enough motivation.
Can't recall the game but once I saw a castle or territory controlled by reported gold sellers in a game I tried. Didn't stick around long enough to verify
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Have any of you guys actually READ the CoE design?
This isn't the run of the mill MMO where everyone is invulnerable, requires no food, tools, shelter etc. Let's go by history. We've ALL seen countless MMOs where "gold selling" has been declared illegal. We've ALL seen those MMOs continue to sell gold. It seems all the move ever achieves is to force more cash into criminals pockets. So, making it illegal achieves nothing, but benefit criminals.
So, what other options do we have? Let's look at how BOTs operate.
1. They automatically gather materials without human effort, making their production more cost effective than human players. How might we address that?
Well, first of all, legitimate OPC scripting is available to EVERYONE, an MMO novelty. Suddenly we can all "bot" to some extent. Check 1 for Elyria.
2. Typically BOTs can run indefinitely without needing to stop or concern themselves with players or threats.
Elyria ditches that concept and embraces a survival philosophy. All professions have a degree of interdependence. A BOT network would need to cater for the whole resource system to be fully effective, something that leaves it vulnerable. It's not going to be a hidden operation and would have to exist in the world the same as every other player. The catch is, if you SELL all your resources, your own economy potentially collapses. There may be a small surplus, but if you sell all that iron, your toolmaker has no resources. In turn your tailor can't replace his equipment and make clothes, and all your people get cold. The woodcutter won't venture outside in the cold without clothing etc...
3. Monopoly. Many systems use AH BOTs and the like to control entire economies.
Elyria doesn't operate global AH systems. People will trade and try to gain a degree of independence within villages or locally. Above that, Counts will manage cross county trade. Above that, Dukes will manage duchy trade, and Kings above that. Within each tier, the members will decide what they trade. If the king runs a BOT network and demands unreasonable tax from his subjects, they can literally overthrow him. Effectively each level is a separate bubble.
4. BOTs require stockpiling to fulfil significant trades - otherwise why wouldn't you just source locally?
Elyria has ALL players as NPCs / Players (or OPCs when offline) who can work as much as the BOTs. To generate a significant volume of goods, the BOTs would effectively have to represent a significant number of characters. That means they have to have a significant amount of sparks (subs) and active characters, requiring a complete economy. To grow an economy, you don't want to be simply stockpiling. Crime is also a thing. If you stockpile, the odds are you'll get seen as an attractive target and robbed. If you sell off chunks of your economy, it'll flounder and get displaced by others. Are you hoping BOTs will buy an entire kingdom, just so they can compete? What happens when players move in? If iron is short, people will take up mining professions. Iron supply begins to stabilise. The BOTs go to sell it, and there's no demand. Certainly not on a large scale. People can literally make an alt, OPC them to mine and supply themselves.
5. Nodes and endless resources.
Laws can be set to determine where people can chop wood within regions, where they can mine, which plots they own etc. BOTS would have to adhere to this same system as the players. If they don't they break the law, and the justice system steps in, potentially wiping chunks of sub time off the BOTs.
The list goes on. The fact is there's very little point to selling off your goods, when in Elyria, the rise to power is constant, and your every move to advance would be reversed by selling off chunks of your power base. This game doesn't compare by any means to other titles I've come across.
In short I think BOTs will be in for a very disappointing time.
If a game is up front about it then what's the problem?
I think Entropia Universe is horrible. The real money virtual world sales and their whole monetization scheme rubs me the wrong way. So I don't play it. And while I may comment now and again about how I feel, I certainly don't go on long vendettas and rampage campaigns.
The players of that game would argue there is nothing wrong with it. I disagree and think they're nuts for saying so. I think this game is nuts for offering $10k kingdoms and sanctioning RMT, but if that's what works for them and their fans then so be it. If they can develop a working community in that environment then good for them. It's not a problem for them. It's just a problem for me (and those like me) who don't want any part of that system so this game isn't really a fit for me.
Well, it's a little late now if you've already pledged to their KS. IIRC, the sanctioning of RMT announcement came out months after the KS ended.
But I agree, if they were upfront about it, then no problem. They weren't though...
If a game is up front about it then what's the problem?
I think Entropia Universe is horrible. The real money virtual world sales and their whole monetization scheme rubs me the wrong way. So I don't play it. And while I may comment now and again about how I feel, I certainly don't go on long vendettas and rampage campaigns.
The players of that game would argue there is nothing wrong with it. I disagree and think they're nuts for saying so. I think this game is nuts for offering $10k kingdoms and sanctioning RMT, but if that's what works for them and their fans then so be it. If they can develop a working community in that environment then good for them. It's not a problem for them. It's just a problem for me (and those like me) who don't want any part of that system so this game isn't really a fit for me.
The issue Iselin and I take with it, and this has become very apparent recently, is that developers are largely ignoring the effects on the integrity of the game, as Iselin mentioned, in favor of fleecing folks for more dollars via this stratification.
CoE isn't selling a pixelized, virtual kingdom. They're selling an air of superiority to folks for 10k a pop. They're sacrificing the integrity of a resource gathering and territory control game. And as crowdfunding schemes become more prominent in this genre, we see not only newer projects but existing games giving up this integrity to try and market-mind-#@$% folks into giving them exorbitant amounts of money for a character skin. Again, it's not the skin they're buying, it's the status symbol.
Video games were one of the few hobbies in the world where, due to its inherently anonymous nature, socioeconomic status was checked at the door in favor of time spent (which is accrued equally for all of us). That's no longer the case, and moving from a primary invested resource that accrues equally for everyone, to a primary invested resource that contains astronomical amounts of variance and is accrued at vastly different rates for different folks, you inject the real life stratification directly into the hobby.
The integrity lost is more pronounced with games like this, where you can literally buy a kingdom in a game focused on territory and resource control.
Oh my, for some reason Slapshot is hell bent on trying to turn folks against CoE. Why I am not sure but for whatever reason let me, an informed individual of CoE and it's community fill you in on a few fun facts that our -informed- OP forgot to mention.
Unlike Other MMOs
- There are no global Chat Features or Mail System where Gold Sellers can spam you several times a day with their advertisements.
- There aren't any Stats or Bonuses on any of the equipment. The quality of the of your gear is just that. It might better protect you, or not need as much maintenance because of the materials used to build it, but that is about it. The rest is based on Character Stats and the skill of the Player. So, as a result, I can't see Equipment being very profitable to gold sellers.
- With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice.
- No one PC can learn every skill, on the contrary, you won't even be able to become a Master of one in your first lifetime.
- There are no Bosses or loot drops with epic gear in Elyria, well not in the same way as other conventional MMOs out there. Instead, you might find a treasure that someone had buried years past (once found it will never return), or perhaps encounter something the Dev team has created for the Story. However, once dead it doesn't respawn. You might even come up against another player that has gained a talent. But you definitely won't be grinding for gear.
- There are no crafting stations that just anyone can us unless a settlement has set it up that way. You can be certain that an NPC or a PC is going to own most every one of them. Thus you will need to gain their consent to use it.
- There is no such thing as grinding in Elyria. Your character will get tired and hungry. As for farming all the resources, good luck. It will be just as easy to do it in Real Life the way the game is set up. Wherein you will need the equipment, skill and multi-skilled group of players.
So when you compare all these facets of the game to the cost of implementing something that will keep Gold farmers out. I think SBS has made a wise decision not to waste their resources on something that will most likely not be that popular in CoE.
When Caspian stated that someone would need to have the -time-, he wasn't kidding. In order for this kind of venture to be profitable, it would consume a ton of the player's time for a minimal profit.
If a game is up front about it then what's the problem?
I think Entropia Universe is horrible. The real money virtual world sales and their whole monetization scheme rubs me the wrong way. So I don't play it. And while I may comment now and again about how I feel, I certainly don't go on long vendettas and rampage campaigns.
...
The problem is that CoE were NOT upfront about it.
Nowhere on their KS page will you see them stating that they will allow full-blown RMT in the game. They presented themselves as a "normal" MMO, and normal MMO's usually have a strict anti-RMT policy.
I'm sure this won't be the last "Oh, by the way, we're also going to...." moment for CoE. They seem to be full of "little surprises"...
An ingame economy dictated by out-of-game resources (money). Hm.
When you can buy in game items for real money, i can see it already. 'ye olde weapon shoppe' $1 Iron dagger $5 steel dagger $20 steel longsword $400 vorpal longsword of flames.
etc. no option to use in game currency, which could easily end up being region locked as each kingdom has its own currency. If the option is there for crafters to either sell things for the local currency, which is of limited value due to regional variations, or sell things for real money, which is valid pretty much everywhere in game, then what are you going to do? the end result is likely to be that real currency is the defacto currency of the game, with in game currency limited to purely NPC vendors. O.o
If things don't change, this could be the reality. It isn't necessarily bad, but it in itself will require moderation. This game is already turning into something whereby you need a lot of money to enjoy or get more out of it, in anyway. If you can buy land and titles, then I suppose you'd want to buy an armory full of weapons and armor for whatever army or guild you have.
Not sure if it will decrease or increase the RMT spam as everyone will want to sell a virtual item they made for real money and likely directly whisper others randomly in the same way people do for guild recruitment now. Even if they allow it, they would have to make it clear that advertisement for sites in general will make for a ban and random whispers to be considered harassment. Those are easier to prove than RMT exchange since the proof is the fact they typed it.
Tracking down RMT takes a lot of work including 24/7 investigators and expensive custom analytics. Companies like Blizzard have full logging with Splunk and huge Hadoop server farms running for custom analytics and tracking of RMT. It costs a LOT of money both in tech and staff to do it effectively.
They decided to embrace it instead and be open about it beforhand, because they probably wouldnt be able to fight RMT effectively anyways with limited staff and budget.
Now I still remain skeptical of this game ever launching period... but thats a different story.
I was about to say the very say thing, only add a little more:
If they don't put in an official way to pay people and guarantee what they pay for in the transaction process, the man power required to settle who was scammed and who was not will increase; with real money involved, things might escalate quickly and legal matters may be brought in.
If they do do this, then the potential for charge backs for the players and or the games could cause more financial problems for them both and thus still need more manpower and legal teams to settle it / defend them. Though I suppose they could just have a long list of legal mumbo jumbo on the transaction page stating the risks that that they don't do anything to protect those who sell or buy. Then just forget it ever happened. Though them facilitating it in the first place may still cause problems with that.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
If a game is up front about it then what's the problem?
I think Entropia Universe is horrible. The real money virtual world sales and their whole monetization scheme rubs me the wrong way. So I don't play it. And while I may comment now and again about how I feel, I certainly don't go on long vendettas and rampage campaigns.
The players of that game would argue there is nothing wrong with it. I disagree and think they're nuts for saying so. I think this game is nuts for offering $10k kingdoms and sanctioning RMT, but if that's what works for them and their fans then so be it. If they can develop a working community in that environment then good for them. It's not a problem for them. It's just a problem for me (and those like me) who don't want any part of that system so this game isn't really a fit for me.
The problem is that we're not here simply to discuss whether a game appeals to us as individuals or not. That would be a very short conversation for a forum where we ostensibly come to share opinions about gaming trends, not just individual games.
It's not about being philosophically dismissive of criticism with live and let live quips. Not when we're talking about something that exists in one form or another in all online gaming and has become a plague on the industry.
Saying that if it works for them, then all is hunky dory is just a cop out that ignores the larger question. Refusal to judge RMT as a negative influence on gaming, referring to those who care about it as being salty or obsessive and trying to justify it on the basis that everyone does it don't advance the conversation, it's just an attempt to police the forum.
If you have something to say about why RMT is good for gaming in general, I'd love to hear it. It would be one hell of a lot more interesting than "stop discussing this."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If a game is up front about it then what's the problem?
I think Entropia Universe is horrible. The real money virtual world sales and their whole monetization scheme rubs me the wrong way. So I don't play it. And while I may comment now and again about how I feel, I certainly don't go on long vendettas and rampage campaigns.
The players of that game would argue there is nothing wrong with it. I disagree and think they're nuts for saying so. I think this game is nuts for offering $10k kingdoms and sanctioning RMT, but if that's what works for them and their fans then so be it. If they can develop a working community in that environment then good for them. It's not a problem for them. It's just a problem for me (and those like me) who don't want any part of that system so this game isn't really a fit for me.
The problem is that we're not here simply to discuss whether a game appeals to us as individuals or not. That would be a very short conversation for a forum where we ostensibly come to share opinions about gaming trends, not just individual games.
It's not about being philosophically dismissive of criticism with live and let live quips. Not when we're talking about something that exists in one form or another in all online gaming and has become a plague on the industry.
Saying that if it works for them, then all is hunky dory is just a cop out that ignores the larger question. Refusal to judge RMT as a negative influence on gaming, referring to those who care about it as being salty or obsessive and trying to justify it on the basis that everyone does it don't advance the conversation, it's just an attempt to police the forum.
If you have something to say about why RMT is good for gaming in general, I'd love to hear it. It would be one hell of a lot more interesting than "stop discussing this."
I think you said it better than I did above.
These marketing ploys and crowdfunding schemes do not exist in a vacuum. The success of these systems will have an effect on their general prevalance within the industry.
- With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice.
This is just vague nonsense.
This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.
I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.
- With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice.
This is just vague nonsense.
This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.
I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.
Trump and CoE? Hmm, I don't fail to see the comparison but I guess you do. Now if you would actually explain to me how you figure it is Vague Nonsense than I might be able to debate the issue with you.
It has been a known fact as to the game mechanices and has been for some time. If you have a source that can prove me wrong I am more then willing to take a look at it.
- With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice.
This is just vague nonsense.
This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.
I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.
Trump and CoE? Hmm, I don't fail to see the comparison but I guess you do. Now if you would actually explain to me how you figure it is Vague Nonsense than I might be able to debate the issue with you.
It has been a known fact as to the game mechanices and has been for some time. If you have a source that can prove me wrong I am more then willing to take a look at it.
In all fairness to the overall point he was making, though, crafting in others games is a simulation of experimentation, lessons, and practice. Experimentation and practice, specifically, will inevitably lead to "wasted resources" in the sense that, while experimenting and practicing, you will inevitably create some less than useful end products. The resources going into that aren't then available to use on the next attempt.
I'm purely speaking to your quoted comment here, so if there's some nuance to the crafting system that somehow ensures any item resulting from an experiment or practice run is equally useful and/or can be recycled to further progress in some way, that could obviously change things.
Well I guess "learning through experimentation" says it all. Who needs details that describe how mechanics really work when you can just put a vague meaningless line to lure in more gullible people?
- With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice.
This is just vague nonsense.
This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.
I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.
Trump and CoE? Hmm, I don't fail to see the comparison but I guess you do. Now if you would actually explain to me how you figure it is Vague Nonsense than I might be able to debate the issue with you.
It has been a known fact as to the game mechanices and has been for some time. If you have a source that can prove me wrong I am more then willing to take a look at it.
In all fairness to the overall point he was making, though, crafting in others games is a simulation of experimentation, lessons, and practice. Experimentation and practice, specifically, will inevitably lead to "wasted resources" in the sense that, while experimenting and practicing, you will inevitably create some less than useful end products. The resources going into that aren't then available to use on the next attempt.
I'm purely speaking to your quoted comment here, so if there's some nuance to the crafting system that somehow ensures any item resulting from an experiment or practice run is equally useful and/or can be recycled to further progress in some way, that could obviously change things.
I respect your input, and that is the great thing about communicating through text. It is not always taken as it is meant.
Let me try to clarify. Much like the real world resources, resources can and will be re-used in Elyria. In fact, it is encouraged through the skill progression. CoE's system is not set up to have to gather massive amounts of resources and keep making the same thing over and over to improve your skill. When in fact, if you just keep attempting to do the same thing repetitively, you will not expand your knowledge in that Skill at all.
Much of Chronicles of Elyria's design is based off the real world as opposed to the instant gratification of most MMOs out there today. Gathering resources and things of that nature will not be nearly as simplified.
Hopefully this will teach a lot of early supporters who are against a compromised in-game economy a lesson to be more wary about giving games early support before the final details come in.
Everyone knows a game can change drastically from plan, alpha, beta, to launch. Whoever believes any game will be exactly like described in the initial planning stage shouldn't believe the hype. If you want to invest in a game at least wait till beta when you know more of how a game will really be.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Beyond the over the top Buy 2 King crowdfunding and the 3 month no-wipe headstart, it appears that they also plan to allow RMT after launch. Here is a link to the discussion on their official forums. If this is out of date or there is a clarification please post it in this thread.
Caspian - Today at 9:30 PM When it comes to selling in-game items in a real-world market we effectively have two choices. We can spend countless hours and resources on trying to stop and track people making money off their in-game items, or we can accept that their time has value to them. If people have a lot of time, but little money, want to use that as a way to create in-game items which they then sell to other players who have disposable income but less free-time, we view that as a win-win.
So I guess CoE dev team doesn't realize that allowing RMT they open themselves up to investigation and potential law suits related to alleged money laundering activities or unpaid sales taxes, etc.
There is a reason why the makers of EVE Online and WoW actively fight RMT.
CoE dev team is either ignorant (likely since they lack experience in so many areas) or are just lazy.
Well I guess "learning through experimentation" says it all. Who needs details that describe how mechanics really work when you can just put a vague meaningless line to lure in more gullible people?
You just described the the MMORPG genre, life, the universe and everything else with one single line. Well done.
I described the universe by pointing out that Caspian is purposely misleading people by being extra vague? The answer is 42.
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here.
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For the record I can almost guarantee I have a better understanding of what has been said about the game than most of the fans. You may disagree with my statements but to suggest I do not properly research these games is absurd.
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Your argument sounds good in theory. But this isn't Call of Duty. There will be consequences for ganking in CoE (the actual extent is still unknown).
So if the average player were to go around stomping out all the gold sellers... it's hard to know what the repercussions would be on that player.
Secondly, gold sellers aren't stupid. They will take precautions so as not to be vulnerable when making a sale.
Every single game that I have played with a friend of mine has made him spend real money for ingame currency and items, regardless of what the game policy says. Never ever has be been banned for it.
He spend his dimes on the game, I spend my dimes on my travels and my wife. The choice is different. Yes we play alot together too and sure he is generally better equipped then me at the initial stages, but in the end it's about the same. So I feel good about still having my money where he spent them just to stay ahead a few months.
So let's not be naive to think: anti gold seller policy = "fair" for everyone.
Instead I agree with a previous poster... let them sell whatever they want just do not allow them to spam the chat! Let them have specific channels that will be allowed for sure chat spam, just not the general chat.
Then I can play the game the way I like it and those having nothing better to spend their money on, by all means spent it on the gold sellers.
Botting and other shit (which happens in all games basically) should still not be allowed.
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
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It doesn't work the way you think. I recall back in early L2 days gold farmers were all over Cruma tower.
Every now and then players would get together to kill them off. A red gold seller "hit squad" of high level characters would show up to clean everyone's clocks
Don't assume they can't or won't defend their business interests using the same means available to all players.
As they play more than most they could end up setting up a gold seller "nation" if there was enough motivation.
Can't recall the game but once I saw a castle or territory controlled by reported gold sellers in a game I tried. Didn't stick around long enough to verify
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Have any of you guys actually READ the CoE design?
This isn't the run of the mill MMO where everyone is invulnerable, requires no food, tools, shelter etc. Let's go by history. We've ALL seen countless MMOs where "gold selling" has been declared illegal. We've ALL seen those MMOs continue to sell gold. It seems all the move ever achieves is to force more cash into criminals pockets. So, making it illegal achieves nothing, but benefit criminals.
So, what other options do we have? Let's look at how BOTs operate.
1. They automatically gather materials without human effort, making their production more cost effective than human players. How might we address that?
Well, first of all, legitimate OPC scripting is available to EVERYONE, an MMO novelty. Suddenly we can all "bot" to some extent. Check 1 for Elyria.
2. Typically BOTs can run indefinitely without needing to stop or concern themselves with players or threats.
Elyria ditches that concept and embraces a survival philosophy. All professions have a degree of interdependence. A BOT network would need to cater for the whole resource system to be fully effective, something that leaves it vulnerable. It's not going to be a hidden operation and would have to exist in the world the same as every other player. The catch is, if you SELL all your resources, your own economy potentially collapses. There may be a small surplus, but if you sell all that iron, your toolmaker has no resources. In turn your tailor can't replace his equipment and make clothes, and all your people get cold. The woodcutter won't venture outside in the cold without clothing etc...
3. Monopoly. Many systems use AH BOTs and the like to control entire economies.
Elyria doesn't operate global AH systems. People will trade and try to gain a degree of independence within villages or locally. Above that, Counts will manage cross county trade. Above that, Dukes will manage duchy trade, and Kings above that. Within each tier, the members will decide what they trade. If the king runs a BOT network and demands unreasonable tax from his subjects, they can literally overthrow him. Effectively each level is a separate bubble.
4. BOTs require stockpiling to fulfil significant trades - otherwise why wouldn't you just source locally?
Elyria has ALL players as NPCs / Players (or OPCs when offline) who can work as much as the BOTs. To generate a significant volume of goods, the BOTs would effectively have to represent a significant number of characters. That means they have to have a significant amount of sparks (subs) and active characters, requiring a complete economy. To grow an economy, you don't want to be simply stockpiling. Crime is also a thing. If you stockpile, the odds are you'll get seen as an attractive target and robbed. If you sell off chunks of your economy, it'll flounder and get displaced by others. Are you hoping BOTs will buy an entire kingdom, just so they can compete? What happens when players move in? If iron is short, people will take up mining professions. Iron supply begins to stabilise. The BOTs go to sell it, and there's no demand. Certainly not on a large scale. People can literally make an alt, OPC them to mine and supply themselves.
5. Nodes and endless resources.
Laws can be set to determine where people can chop wood within regions, where they can mine, which plots they own etc. BOTS would have to adhere to this same system as the players. If they don't they break the law, and the justice system steps in, potentially wiping chunks of sub time off the BOTs.
The list goes on. The fact is there's very little point to selling off your goods, when in Elyria, the rise to power is constant, and your every move to advance would be reversed by selling off chunks of your power base. This game doesn't compare by any means to other titles I've come across.
In short I think BOTs will be in for a very disappointing time.
Well, it's a little late now if you've already pledged to their KS. IIRC, the sanctioning of RMT announcement came out months after the KS ended.
But I agree, if they were upfront about it, then no problem. They weren't though...
The issue Iselin and I take with it, and this has become very apparent recently, is that developers are largely ignoring the effects on the integrity of the game, as Iselin mentioned, in favor of fleecing folks for more dollars via this stratification.
CoE isn't selling a pixelized, virtual kingdom. They're selling an air of superiority to folks for 10k a pop. They're sacrificing the integrity of a resource gathering and territory control game. And as crowdfunding schemes become more prominent in this genre, we see not only newer projects but existing games giving up this integrity to try and market-mind-#@$% folks into giving them exorbitant amounts of money for a character skin. Again, it's not the skin they're buying, it's the status symbol.
Video games were one of the few hobbies in the world where, due to its inherently anonymous nature, socioeconomic status was checked at the door in favor of time spent (which is accrued equally for all of us). That's no longer the case, and moving from a primary invested resource that accrues equally for everyone, to a primary invested resource that contains astronomical amounts of variance and is accrued at vastly different rates for different folks, you inject the real life stratification directly into the hobby.
The integrity lost is more pronounced with games like this, where you can literally buy a kingdom in a game focused on territory and resource control.
The problem is that CoE were NOT upfront about it.
Nowhere on their KS page will you see them stating that they will allow full-blown RMT in the game. They presented themselves as a "normal" MMO, and normal MMO's usually have a strict anti-RMT policy.
I'm sure this won't be the last "Oh, by the way, we're also going to...." moment for CoE. They seem to be full of "little surprises"...
If things don't change, this could be the reality. It isn't necessarily bad, but it in itself will require moderation. This game is already turning into something whereby you need a lot of money to enjoy or get more out of it, in anyway. If you can buy land and titles, then I suppose you'd want to buy an armory full of weapons and armor for whatever army or guild you have.
Not sure if it will decrease or increase the RMT spam as everyone will want to sell a virtual item they made for real money and likely directly whisper others randomly in the same way people do for guild recruitment now. Even if they allow it, they would have to make it clear that advertisement for sites in general will make for a ban and random whispers to be considered harassment. Those are easier to prove than RMT exchange since the proof is the fact they typed it.
I was about to say the very say thing, only add a little more:
If they don't put in an official way to pay people and guarantee what they pay for in the transaction process, the man power required to settle who was scammed and who was not will increase; with real money involved, things might escalate quickly and legal matters may be brought in.
If they do do this, then the potential for charge backs for the players and or the games could cause more financial problems for them both and thus still need more manpower and legal teams to settle it / defend them. Though I suppose they could just have a long list of legal mumbo jumbo on the transaction page stating the risks that that they don't do anything to protect those who sell or buy. Then just forget it ever happened. Though them facilitating it in the first place may still cause problems with that.
The problem is that we're not here simply to discuss whether a game appeals to us as individuals or not. That would be a very short conversation for a forum where we ostensibly come to share opinions about gaming trends, not just individual games.
It's not about being philosophically dismissive of criticism with live and let live quips. Not when we're talking about something that exists in one form or another in all online gaming and has become a plague on the industry.
Saying that if it works for them, then all is hunky dory is just a cop out that ignores the larger question. Refusal to judge RMT as a negative influence on gaming, referring to those who care about it as being salty or obsessive and trying to justify it on the basis that everyone does it don't advance the conversation, it's just an attempt to police the forum.
If you have something to say about why RMT is good for gaming in general, I'd love to hear it. It would be one hell of a lot more interesting than "stop discussing this."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
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I think you said it better than I did above.
These marketing ploys and crowdfunding schemes do not exist in a vacuum. The success of these systems will have an effect on their general prevalance within the industry.
This is just vague nonsense.
This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.
I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.
But I guess they can say whatever they want. Its been pretty obvious since last year that this game isn't gonna get made.
It has been a known fact as to the game mechanices and has been for some time. If you have a source that can prove me wrong I am more then willing to take a look at it.
In all fairness to the overall point he was making, though, crafting in others games is a simulation of experimentation, lessons, and practice. Experimentation and practice, specifically, will inevitably lead to "wasted resources" in the sense that, while experimenting and practicing, you will inevitably create some less than useful end products. The resources going into that aren't then available to use on the next attempt.
I'm purely speaking to your quoted comment here, so if there's some nuance to the crafting system that somehow ensures any item resulting from an experiment or practice run is equally useful and/or can be recycled to further progress in some way, that could obviously change things.
Who needs details that describe how mechanics really work when you can just put a vague meaningless line to lure in more gullible people?
Let me try to clarify. Much like the real world resources, resources can and will be re-used in Elyria. In fact, it is encouraged through the skill progression. CoE's system is not set up to have to gather massive amounts of resources and keep making the same thing over and over to improve your skill. When in fact, if you just keep attempting to do the same thing repetitively, you will not expand your knowledge in that Skill at all.
Much of Chronicles of Elyria's design is based off the real world as opposed to the instant gratification of most MMOs out there today. Gathering resources and things of that nature will not be nearly as simplified.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
So I guess CoE dev team doesn't realize that allowing RMT they open themselves up to investigation and potential law suits related to alleged money laundering activities or unpaid sales taxes, etc.
There is a reason why the makers of EVE Online and WoW actively fight RMT.
CoE dev team is either ignorant (likely since they lack experience in so many areas) or are just lazy.
Edit - one example of this:
http://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/news/valve-sued-for-promoting-illegal-gambling-in-counter-strike-global-offensive-853288
I described the universe by pointing out that Caspian is purposely misleading people by being extra vague?
The answer is 42.
What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson