@Distopia, No one is denying that RMT doesn't go on behind shadows and on the "black market" in every MMO.
There's a big difference though in perception and participation, between saying it's against the rules (and not doing much to stop it from happening), and what CoE did, which was saying that RMT is going to be allowed...
Last thing I want is to play a game where I constantly feel like I need to participate in RMT to be competitive.
Last thing I want is to play a game where I constantly feel like I need to participate in RMT to be competitive.
That's my point in a nutshell though, you always were playing in that environment. That just shows how little it truly effects the overall experience. Because you don't really notice it. You can still play by the rules and fare well in the competitive side of the game (PVP). Which is where it really matters.
Accepting that makes it easy to get past the perception you talk about. I accepted that long ago when I was still deeply into SWG. Hence this notion doesn't scare me at all, as I know it will be no different than it was back then.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here.
Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies.
I don't remember that from those old days.
Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's not that I don't agree with their reason for not bothering with it. However, the blatant disregard and basic promotion of such an economic travesty shows a complete lack of care for their game. At the very least, you could just say, no, it's not allowed, but not do anything to stop it. Public statements like this are worse than shooting yourself in the foot.
Agree, but from the beginning it was clear that this game was being designed for the affluent few to spend prodigiously. The rest of the plebs are around to be their playthings and background actors. Now there is really no conceivable way that a whale who spent 10-20k on his buy to king pledge can lose it as long as he's willing to keep on spending his money on resources and items and probably even people. Hey, I can see it now:
Come join my army for this battle and I'll pay you $25 a head...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here.
Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies.
I don't remember that from those old days.
Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.
I just see it as someone dropping the facade, which IMO it's about time. As I said above I have felt this way since my SWG days long before MMOs turned into "my single player games", where ebayed Jedi or RMT'd dot weapons was as normal as just about anything else you came across.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
They will have to take chat completely out of the game before I would attempt to play now. As useless as it will be they might as well anyway. Although, honestly, before this thread I had only read the name of the game a few times and never read anything about it until now. Zero interest before and -5 interest now.
It's not a few people that do this. No one who doesn't have their head up their butts knows it. We've had threads here before talking about people cheating and most here have done it. A multimillion dollar industry doesn't just pop up because a few people here or there aren't doing it.
If a game has free trading RMT is going to happen because most mmo gamers are cheaters. There are very few games without a noticable RMT problem. LotRO is one of the few I can think of and that's mostly because very little of value can be traded.
Most of the cheaters don't care or try and justify it like the guy who always posts about anti-bot software and getting banned from albion for buying gold.
How many people in this thread have purchased gold/rmt or know a guildie or friend who did and didn't report them? Be honest with yourselves and don't try and make any excuses. Start taking responsibility and accountability for our own problem. If players didn't buy gold devs wouldn't have to fight it.
I have never actively known anyone that bought anything in a game. Now,
that doesn't mean I didn't know people who did but I didn't know about
it.
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here.
Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies.
I don't remember that from those old days.
Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.
I just see it as someone dropping the facade, which IMO it's about time. As I said above I have felt this way since my SWG days long before MMOs turned into "my single player games", where ebayed Jedi or RMT'd dot weapons was as normal as just about anything else you came across.
Dropping the facade and embracing it are two different things though, aren't they?
Maybe you and I hung out in different crowds. All the time I spent in Asheron's Call and DAoC I never heard anyone admit to having bought a character or item or gold on Ebay or anywhere else although I'm very aware that those listings were there.
First time I ever heard someone openly admit buying gold was in WOW and he was kicked out of our guild lol.... although I admit, many of us felt sorry for him and thought that was too harsh: being laughed at was enough punishment.
Of course once the companies themselves started doing the selling the gamer's attitude toward RMT was bound to change don't you think?
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that things are the same today as they were 15 years ago.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
With the way they plan to have their in-game economics set up this will be a disaster. Wallet warrior's wet dream. More power to em I guess, they're keeping people employed after all!
By allowing RMT, developers acknowledge that the virtual goods in their game hold real monetary value, which can indeed make them vulnerable to certain types of lawsuits in some regions of the world. Cancellation of game development can be litigated as a failure to deliver virtual goods. A scam involving in-game items can be litigated as a fraud, etc. The law already knows precedents in such categories. In some countries precedents have established the real monetary value of virtual items.
One year ago, after development of game X had been cancelled and company Y withheld refunds to early backers, I prepared a litigation in cooperation with a law firm against the company. Company Y decided not to get involved in the legal dispute and settled with a complete refund. While the game had been still in development and they had transactions involving real money and in-game goods, the creative director of game X, who was also CEO of company Y, had promised to allow RMT. This would have been used against them in the litigation, among other things (though they most likely settled not because of this point but because of another contingency built into the litigation, capitalising on their unawareness of one of the newest VAT tax regulations, that would have jeopardised their future projects with a major distributor in the European Union).
Major companies are aware of these dangers and have experts who consult them on information disclosure but indie companies with their open development approach and less knowledge or experience with legal disputes reveal information without sufficient consideration sometimes and without fear of subpoena duces tecum.
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here.
Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies.
I don't remember that from those old days.
Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.
I just see it as someone dropping the facade, which IMO it's about time. As I said above I have felt this way since my SWG days long before MMOs turned into "my single player games", where ebayed Jedi or RMT'd dot weapons was as normal as just about anything else you came across.
Dropping the facade and embracing it are two different things though, aren't they?
Maybe you and I hung out in different crowds. All the time I spent in Asheron's Call and DAoC I never heard anyone admit to having bought a character or item or gold on Ebay or anywhere else although I'm very aware that those listings were there.
First time I ever heard someone openly admit buying gold was in WOW and he was kicked out of our guild lol.... although I admit, many of us felt sorry for him and thought that was too harsh: being laughed at was enough punishment.
Of course once the companies themselves started doing the selling the gamer's attitude toward RMT was bound to change don't you think?
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that things are the same today as they were 15 years ago.
Hell, I play a DAOC freeshard that bans people for having more than one account....or botting, or speed hacking or sometimes for just being extra rude.
If these guys can keep up the good fight I expect a company I pay money to be able to do likewise.
You never surrender to the terrorists.....no matter the cost.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here.
Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies.
I don't remember that from those old days.
Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.
I just see it as someone dropping the facade, which IMO it's about time. As I said above I have felt this way since my SWG days long before MMOs turned into "my single player games", where ebayed Jedi or RMT'd dot weapons was as normal as just about anything else you came across.
Dropping the facade and embracing it are two different things though, aren't they?
Maybe you and I hung out in different crowds. All the time I spent in Asheron's Call and DAoC I never heard anyone admit to having bought a character or item or gold on Ebay or anywhere else although I'm very aware that those listings were there.
First time I ever heard someone openly admit buying gold was in WOW and he was kicked out of our guild lol.... although I admit, many of us felt sorry for him and thought that was too harsh: being laughed at was enough punishment.
Of course once the companies themselves started doing the selling the gamer's attitude toward RMT was bound to change don't you think?
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that things are the same today as they were 15 years ago.
Hell, I play a DAOC freeshard that bans people for having more than one account....or botting, or speed hacking or sometimes for just being extra rude.
If these guys can keep up the good fight I expect a company I pay money to be able to do likewise.
You never surrender to the terrorists.....no matter the cost.
Moral compasses are so broken these days....
Could not agree more... on all points.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Dropping the facade and embracing it are two different things though, aren't they?
Maybe you and I hung out in different crowds. All the time I spent in Asheron's Call and DAoC I never heard anyone admit to having bought a character or item or gold on Ebay or anywhere else although I'm very aware that those listings were there.
First time I ever heard someone openly admit buying gold was in WOW and he was kicked out of our guild lol.... although I admit, many of us felt sorry for him and thought that was too harsh: being laughed at was enough punishment.
Of course once the companies themselves started doing the selling the gamer's attitude toward RMT was bound to change don't you think?
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that things are the same today as they were 15 years ago.
I never heard about it in DAOC either, it wasn't until I got heavily involved in SWG's PVP community that I really found out how normal it was there ( I had never even heard of IGE until then(. Most of the people I knew who had Jedi either had the account given to them or bought it. Few frowned on them for that, a lot the popular peeps did it. As long as they played well no one cared. Those who didn't play well was a different story...
As for things being different, well that depends on what you mean, many games today have binded items so that changes things in itself. As for how many accounts are passed around on the blackmarket, I don't know I'm not as deeply involved in any gaming communities today outside of this forum. As for legal RMT, most of it is cosmetic, at least in the west. In other cases it's problematic sure, like games tying ownership to those who can pay. Yet that kills most of those games in itself. So it's a problem that solves itself.
As for the blackmarket in general, I don't know how prevalent that is today. I lost my curiosity about that long ago.
SO in short in some ways things are more controlled today, not many AAA games have huge PVP crowds either, so that makes it even less likely to be a topic of concern for those games.
What is still the same though is the mindset of the overall players IMO. YOu have folks who think cheating makes the whole experience pointless (how I feel about it as well) and play by the book, you have those who only care about a certain aspect and cheat their way there (leveling services, buying toons legally, etc...). Honestly that's a multi-layered question.
It's also apples to oranges in terms of overall types of games available. We'll see how different it really is when these KS games hit the market, as they're more in line with games of the past.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Dropping the facade and embracing it are two different things though, aren't they?
Maybe you and I hung out in different crowds. All the time I spent in Asheron's Call and DAoC I never heard anyone admit to having bought a character or item or gold on Ebay or anywhere else although I'm very aware that those listings were there.
First time I ever heard someone openly admit buying gold was in WOW and he was kicked out of our guild lol.... although I admit, many of us felt sorry for him and thought that was too harsh: being laughed at was enough punishment.
Of course once the companies themselves started doing the selling the gamer's attitude toward RMT was bound to change don't you think?
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that things are the same today as they were 15 years ago.
I never heard about it in DAOC either, it wasn't until I got heavily involved in SWG's PVP community that I really found out how normal it was there ( I had never even heard of IGE until then(. Most of the people I knew who had Jedi either had the account given to them or bought it. Few frowned on them for that, a lot the popular peeps did it. As long as they played well no one cared. Those who didn't play well was a different story...
As for things being different, well that depends on what you mean, many games today have binded items so that changes things in itself. As for how many accounts are passed around on the blackmarket, I don't know I'm not as deeply involved in any gaming communities today outside of this forum. As for legal RMT, most of it is cosmetic, at least in the west. In other cases it's problematic sure, like games tying ownership to those who can pay. Yet that kills most of those games in itself. So it's a problem that solves itself.
As for the blackmarket in general, I don't know how prevalent that is today. I lost my curiosity about that long ago.
SO in short in some ways things are more controlled today, not many AAA games have huge PVP crowds either, so that makes it even less likely to be a topic of concern for those games.
What is still the same though is the mindset of the overall players IMO. YOu have folks who think cheating makes the whole experience pointless (how I feel about it as well) and play by the book, you have those who only care about a certain aspect and cheat their way there (leveling services, buying toons legally, etc...). Honestly that's a multi-layered question.
It's also apples to oranges in terms overall types of games available. We'll see how different it really is when these KS games hit the market, as they're more in line with games of the past.
When I referred to the companies doing it I wasn't thinking of cash shops and cosmetic items. I was thinking more of the schemes where you can buy items from a cash shop and then sell it in game for gold. I.e. gold sales which has always been the most common RMT practice. It's just a different way of selling gold that some seem to think is somehow sanitized by the two step process.
Many people also defend that while still bashing the black market gold sellers on the basis that the cash is going to the game so it's a good thing for everyone... totally ignoring the issue that it's not doing the concept of fair play or the game's integrity any good.
And yes, the more competitive the environment, the worse it is for the game.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Hell, I play a DAOC freeshard that bans people for having more than one account....or botting, or speed hacking or sometimes for just being extra rude.
If these guys can keep up the good fight I expect a company I pay money to be able to do likewise.
You never surrender to the terrorists.....no matter the cost.
Moral compasses are so broken these days....
Freeshards are typically more conformed to the specific group responsible for it. The SWG servers are also that way I visit. Everyone is allowed only 1 account as an example. Yet they're more lax in terms of the grind to get to endgame as they're mostly PVP focused.
That said that's an apples and oranges comparison, Freeshards are typically one server with a couple thousand players. A much easier environment to police.
In terms of black market that's another subject entirely as there usually isn't even enough of an audience or traffic to warrant the practice. WOW servers may be a different story though.
I certainly hope your "moral compasses" remark wasn't toward me though, as I never said I condone the practice, as I don't at all. I just accept the reality of it existing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When I referred to the companies doing it I wasn't thinking of cash shops and cosmetic items. I was thinking more of the schemes where you can buy items from a cash shop and then sell it in game for gold. I.e. gold sales which has always been the most common RMT practice. It's just a different way of selling gold that some seem to think is somehow sanitized by the two step process.
Many people also defend that while still bashing the black market gold sellers on the basis that the cash is going to the game so it's a good thing for everyone... totally ignoring the issue that it's not doing the concept of fair play or the game's integrity any good.
And yes, the more competitive the environment, the worse it is for the game.
I see your point about gold sales, it is the same at least as far as integrity of the economy goes... if a person frowns on one thing they should the other.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I already saw the true face of this developer by about the second week of threads.One can ALWAYS find an EXCUSE to support some kind of agenda,except i don't buy excuses ,i listen to reason and determine if it is best for a game.
About 3 months ago i posted as video on the RMT king,the MAIN guy.To break it down simply,even he knows RMT is really bad for gaming but offers a service to make a good living from it.The real truth is that devs also know it does not belong and SHOULD be banned from the games but do NOT want to afford any effort or cost to battle it.Instead they have now turned to seeing MORE profit to be made and could likely even partner up to make money from it as well.For years Eve has been scrutinized on the ISK front. Of course it is their game to do as they please but how lawful can it be scrutinized?You think there is any tax money being paid,i doubt it if very little.
This game like so many did not just magically show up because someone on this site thought ,hmmm great game,it showed up to start advertising it's incoming crowd funding agenda.
Yeah i was sold until that second week ,then it is like ok forget this game not a game i want to support.I can add Crowfall to that list,SOTA,Blizzard games and even Square Enix games of late,not much we can trust from this site anymore,it is 100% an agenda about making money.
So much for gaming passion.At least some here still have a passion to see awesome games and not just endorse everything thrown in our face.I will continue to take note if a game looks promising,as i said COE looked promising,and then Ashes also looked promising but the true face eventually shows and instead of supporting them,i will block those scammy developers right off my list.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.
So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.
Disapointing.
Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.
I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.
But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.
What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here.
Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies.
I don't remember that from those old days.
Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.
I just see it as someone dropping the facade, which IMO it's about time. As I said above I have felt this way since my SWG days long before MMOs turned into "my single player games", where ebayed Jedi or RMT'd dot weapons was as normal as just about anything else you came across.
Dropping the facade and embracing it are two different things though, aren't they?
Maybe you and I hung out in different crowds. All the time I spent in Asheron's Call and DAoC I never heard anyone admit to having bought a character or item or gold on Ebay or anywhere else although I'm very aware that those listings were there.
First time I ever heard someone openly admit buying gold was in WOW and he was kicked out of our guild lol.... although I admit, many of us felt sorry for him and thought that was too harsh: being laughed at was enough punishment.
Of course once the companies themselves started doing the selling the gamer's attitude toward RMT was bound to change don't you think?
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that things are the same today as they were 15 years ago.
Hell, I play a DAOC freeshard that bans people for having more than one account....or botting, or speed hacking or sometimes for just being extra rude.
If these guys can keep up the good fight I expect a company I pay money to be able to do likewise.
You never surrender to the terrorists.....no matter the cost.
Moral compasses are so broken these days....
That must be tough on them to ban revenue streams that endanger future content development.
That would be the point, perhaps it isn't a case of not being able to stop rmt'ers but more because of concern over the bottom line.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This project is screwed no matter what choices they make, much like starship jpeg factory, they'll never be given a pass no matter what.
Thing is when there's no game to play, all we have is Caspian's verbal farts to go by... usually couched in "depending on what my lawyer says" disclaimers.
Contrast that with the things that the CU, Crowfall or Ashes developers say and that should tell you all you need to know about why COE gets very few passes.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The problem is you like truth and transparency. Most people only like or appreciate honesty when it fits the narrative they want to hear.
If Caspian would have said something to the effect that they hate rmt, and they're going to spend a ton of money and resources combating rmt, then my guess is people would be happy with that answer even though it's not honest or any more effective than not wasting resources on it.
My guess is then the indignant narrative would shift to what an unrealistic dreamer he is thinking his team could possibly combat the RMT giant with such meager funding. See there's always a way to take the negative track. This project is screwed no matter what choices they make, much like starship jpeg factory, they'll never be given a pass no matter what.
Except of course what he actually called RMT was a WIN-WIN. He didn't just say it was something they'd have to live it... he in essence said it was a GOOD THING. There is no ambiguity here. There is no straw-man about not having resources to combat it. He literally called it a WIN-WIN situation.
Which of course makes sense because it allows his whales to continue to use their real cash to stay atop their insurmountable mountain of privilege.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The problem is you like truth and transparency. Most people only like or appreciate honesty when it fits the narrative they want to hear.
If Caspian would have said something to the effect that they hate rmt, and they're going to spend a ton of money and resources combating rmt, then my guess is people would be happy with that answer even though it's not honest or any more effective than not wasting resources on it.
My guess is then the indignant narrative would shift to what an unrealistic dreamer he is thinking his team could possibly combat the RMT giant with such meager funding. See there's always a way to take the negative track. This project is screwed no matter what choices they make, much like starship jpeg factory, they'll never be given a pass no matter what.
Except of course what he actually called RMT was a WIN-WIN. He didn't just say it was something they'd have to live it... he in essence said it was a GOOD THING. There is no ambiguity here. There is no straw-man about not having resources to combat it. He literally called it a WIN-WIN situation.
Which of course makes sense because it allows his whales to continue to use their real cash to stay atop their insurmountable mountain of privilege.
To be fair that statement was in regard to people who put as much value in money as time. In simpler terms those who don't have the time to play yet the money to spend. Sure that leaves an entire spectrum of players saying what they're saying here, yet it saves the company funds in trying and failing to please those people from the get go. If they want that environment, they want it, so what is there to do for those opposed but skip it?
In a way it's not unlike Pantheon's approach to cater to groupers, leaving soloers to fend on the little they can. It's just a less popular approach than that. AT least in this type of community.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The developers said the could either spend more money trying to find and stop the people selling in game items on ebay or where ever. Or they could support it, the easiest alternative. Stopping RMT is like playing hide and seek with five people over the entire United States. Yeah, it can't be done. The Joke is on anyone that thinks RMT can be prevented by any developer, especially one that doesn't have the budget of Blizzard. Blizzard only comes close to preventing RMT, and they know it. So I'll end by quoting @Torval, "If players didn't buy gold devs wouldn't have to fight it"
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
[Caspian - Today at 9:35 PM @Rahl Draikskorn Ⓥ Unless my attorney says otherwise, we're not going to stop you.]
Interesting. Not a done deal, just an option being looked into at this point. So it may not happen anyways...
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
There's a big difference though in perception and participation, between saying it's against the rules (and not doing much to stop it from happening), and what CoE did, which was saying that RMT is going to be allowed...
Last thing I want is to play a game where I constantly feel like I need to participate in RMT to be competitive.
That's my point in a nutshell though, you always were playing in that environment. That just shows how little it truly effects the overall experience. Because you don't really notice it. You can still play by the rules and fare well in the competitive side of the game (PVP). Which is where it really matters.
Accepting that makes it easy to get past the perception you talk about. I accepted that long ago when I was still deeply into SWG. Hence this notion doesn't scare me at all, as I know it will be no different than it was back then.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies.
I don't remember that from those old days.
Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Agree, but from the beginning it was clear that this game was being designed for the affluent few to spend prodigiously. The rest of the plebs are around to be their playthings and background actors. Now there is really no conceivable way that a whale who spent 10-20k on his buy to king pledge can lose it as long as he's willing to keep on spending his money on resources and items and probably even people. Hey, I can see it now:
Come join my army for this battle and I'll pay you $25 a head...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I just see it as someone dropping the facade, which IMO it's about time. As I said above I have felt this way since my SWG days long before MMOs turned into "my single player games", where ebayed Jedi or RMT'd dot weapons was as normal as just about anything else you came across.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
that doesn't mean I didn't know people who did but I didn't know about
it.
Dropping the facade and embracing it are two different things though, aren't they?
Maybe you and I hung out in different crowds. All the time I spent in Asheron's Call and DAoC I never heard anyone admit to having bought a character or item or gold on Ebay or anywhere else although I'm very aware that those listings were there.
First time I ever heard someone openly admit buying gold was in WOW and he was kicked out of our guild lol.... although I admit, many of us felt sorry for him and thought that was too harsh: being laughed at was enough punishment.
Of course once the companies themselves started doing the selling the gamer's attitude toward RMT was bound to change don't you think?
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that things are the same today as they were 15 years ago.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
One year ago, after development of game X had been cancelled and company Y withheld refunds to early backers, I prepared a litigation in cooperation with a law firm against the company. Company Y decided not to get involved in the legal dispute and settled with a complete refund. While the game had been still in development and they had transactions involving real money and in-game goods, the creative director of game X, who was also CEO of company Y, had promised to allow RMT. This would have been used against them in the litigation, among other things (though they most likely settled not because of this point but because of another contingency built into the litigation, capitalising on their unawareness of one of the newest VAT tax regulations, that would have jeopardised their future projects with a major distributor in the European Union).
Major companies are aware of these dangers and have experts who consult them on information disclosure but indie companies with their open development approach and less knowledge or experience with legal disputes reveal information without sufficient consideration sometimes and without fear of subpoena duces tecum.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
Hell, I play a DAOC freeshard that bans people for having more than one account....or botting, or speed hacking or sometimes for just being extra rude.
If these guys can keep up the good fight I expect a company I pay money to be able to do likewise.
You never surrender to the terrorists.....no matter the cost.
Moral compasses are so broken these days....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Could not agree more... on all points.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I never heard about it in DAOC either, it wasn't until I got heavily involved in SWG's PVP community that I really found out how normal it was there ( I had never even heard of IGE until then(. Most of the people I knew who had Jedi either had the account given to them or bought it. Few frowned on them for that, a lot the popular peeps did it. As long as they played well no one cared. Those who didn't play well was a different story...
As for things being different, well that depends on what you mean, many games today have binded items so that changes things in itself. As for how many accounts are passed around on the blackmarket, I don't know I'm not as deeply involved in any gaming communities today outside of this forum. As for legal RMT, most of it is cosmetic, at least in the west. In other cases it's problematic sure, like games tying ownership to those who can pay. Yet that kills most of those games in itself. So it's a problem that solves itself.
As for the blackmarket in general, I don't know how prevalent that is today. I lost my curiosity about that long ago.
SO in short in some ways things are more controlled today, not many AAA games have huge PVP crowds either, so that makes it even less likely to be a topic of concern for those games.
What is still the same though is the mindset of the overall players IMO. YOu have folks who think cheating makes the whole experience pointless (how I feel about it as well) and play by the book, you have those who only care about a certain aspect and cheat their way there (leveling services, buying toons legally, etc...). Honestly that's a multi-layered question.
It's also apples to oranges in terms of overall types of games available. We'll see how different it really is when these KS games hit the market, as they're more in line with games of the past.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When I referred to the companies doing it I wasn't thinking of cash shops and cosmetic items. I was thinking more of the schemes where you can buy items from a cash shop and then sell it in game for gold. I.e. gold sales which has always been the most common RMT practice. It's just a different way of selling gold that some seem to think is somehow sanitized by the two step process.
Many people also defend that while still bashing the black market gold sellers on the basis that the cash is going to the game so it's a good thing for everyone... totally ignoring the issue that it's not doing the concept of fair play or the game's integrity any good.
And yes, the more competitive the environment, the worse it is for the game.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Freeshards are typically more conformed to the specific group responsible for it. The SWG servers are also that way I visit. Everyone is allowed only 1 account as an example. Yet they're more lax in terms of the grind to get to endgame as they're mostly PVP focused.
That said that's an apples and oranges comparison, Freeshards are typically one server with a couple thousand players. A much easier environment to police.
In terms of black market that's another subject entirely as there usually isn't even enough of an audience or traffic to warrant the practice. WOW servers may be a different story though.
I certainly hope your "moral compasses" remark wasn't toward me though, as I never said I condone the practice, as I don't at all. I just accept the reality of it existing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I see your point about gold sales, it is the same at least as far as integrity of the economy goes... if a person frowns on one thing they should the other.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
About 3 months ago i posted as video on the RMT king,the MAIN guy.To break it down simply,even he knows RMT is really bad for gaming but offers a service to make a good living from it.The real truth is that devs also know it does not belong and SHOULD be banned from the games but do NOT want to afford any effort or cost to battle it.Instead they have now turned to seeing MORE profit to be made and could likely even partner up to make money from it as well.For years Eve has been scrutinized on the ISK front.
Of course it is their game to do as they please but how lawful can it be scrutinized?You think there is any tax money being paid,i doubt it if very little.
This game like so many did not just magically show up because someone on this site thought ,hmmm great game,it showed up to start advertising it's incoming crowd funding agenda.
Yeah i was sold until that second week ,then it is like ok forget this game not a game i want to support.I can add Crowfall to that list,SOTA,Blizzard games and even Square Enix games of late,not much we can trust from this site anymore,it is 100% an agenda about making money.
So much for gaming passion.At least some here still have a passion to see awesome games and not just endorse everything thrown in our face.I will continue to take note if a game looks promising,as i said COE looked promising,and then Ashes also looked promising but the true face eventually shows and instead of supporting them,i will block those scammy developers right off my list.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
That would be the point, perhaps it isn't a case of not being able to stop rmt'ers but more because of concern over the bottom line.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thing is when there's no game to play, all we have is Caspian's verbal farts to go by... usually couched in "depending on what my lawyer says" disclaimers.
Contrast that with the things that the CU, Crowfall or Ashes developers say and that should tell you all you need to know about why COE gets very few passes.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Except of course what he actually called RMT was a WIN-WIN. He didn't just say it was something they'd have to live it... he in essence said it was a GOOD THING. There is no ambiguity here. There is no straw-man about not having resources to combat it. He literally called it a WIN-WIN situation.
Which of course makes sense because it allows his whales to continue to use their real cash to stay atop their insurmountable mountain of privilege.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It is only these boards and posters with awkwardly twisted perception that people spending money on product you sell is a bad thing.
To be fair that statement was in regard to people who put as much value in money as time. In simpler terms those who don't have the time to play yet the money to spend. Sure that leaves an entire spectrum of players saying what they're saying here, yet it saves the company funds in trying and failing to please those people from the get go. If they want that environment, they want it, so what is there to do for those opposed but skip it?
In a way it's not unlike Pantheon's approach to cater to groupers, leaving soloers to fend on the little they can. It's just a less popular approach than that. AT least in this type of community.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Interesting. Not a done deal, just an option being looked into at this point. So it may not happen anyways...
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey