Remember when you all loved GW2 and thought black lion chest were just fine and Halloween boxes we just fine?
Dont make me pull the thread and and point you out.
My how some of us change.
Answer me this, why is it when a few people are ok with "a thing" then suddenly we are all "ok with a thing?"
Now, for me, I don't care. And I still don't care. I don't believe I came out and "thought it was fine." I most likely didn't care. Like I don't righ tnow.
But generalizing is just generalizing.
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If I were a company and a small population market like Canada passed this law I would just stop selling products in Canada. I am positive Canadians would still buy the product if they wanted it, and I wouldn't have to change anything.
I hope they do this as it would make me laugh hilariously as all the tyrants that love imposing their tyranny on other people will have a huge middle-finger thrown at them.
Actually, if the case passes in Canada, there is a good chance America will also adopt that policy, given how similar Canada and America are in this regard.
Which I wager is why EA will fight tooth and nail to not let this happen.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Remember when you all loved GW2 and thought black lion chest were just fine and Halloween boxes we just fine?
Dont make me pull the thread and and point you out.
My how some of us change.
I think people said it because the game was buy to play and since they had no subscription they felt the game developers had to earn money somehow so they accepted it. I don't think it was an endorsement of loot boxes and the subsequent corruption of this money making tool has all but evaporated any goodwill it initially evoked.
Remember when you all loved GW2 and thought black lion chest were just fine and Halloween boxes we just fine?
Dont make me pull the thread and and point you out.
My how some of us change.
I think people said it because the game was buy to play and since they had no subscription they felt the game developers had to earn money somehow so they accepted it. I don't think it was an endorsement of loot boxes and the subsequent corruption of this money making tool has all but evaporated any goodwill it initially evoked.
That's not why it was accepted. At that time the consumer push was to get games away from pay2win mechanic's. With cosmetic items being general accepted as valid sales tactic for cashshops. With that in mind the company added boxes that gave you cosmetic mounts. On the other hand you had companys like Pearl Abyss take that same feed back and make costumes which were at the time considered cosmetic into pay2win items.
Fun fact that some of use might remember is that GW used to track your play time and send you a message along the lines of saying you have been playing for x hours please take a break.
I know bcbully isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, and his specific example is reflective of nothing more than his usual vendetta, but even he should be able to realize that views can change over the years (yes, years, 8 of them to be exact).
Black Lion Chests look great compared to all of the pay to win that absolutely ravages this genre. The MMO genre is barely more respectable than mobile gaming. That doesn't make them good, and it doesn't exempt them from the loot box conversation. Yes, most of us have come to accept that Black Lion Chests are bad. All lootboxes are bad. Black Lion Chests should be removed, just the same as all other paid gambling, even if their removal would likely kill the game within the year.
Do we get a medal for that realization, or does that medal only go to those with an 8-year raging hate boner? (Seriously, see a doctor - that isn't meant to last longer than 4 hours.).
Regardless of what happens in Canada the worst case scenario we are likely to see in the USA is more strict regulations on lootboxes. That's not really a bad thing but they won't be removed altogether. Before that happens company's would just switch to the same models that card company's in the USA have been using for over 50 years.
We have some crazy politicians in the USA but i don't think any of them are suicidal enough to target TOPPS. Claiming they have been using predatory tactic's on children for over 50 years and that their card packs are illegal gambling.
Lawsuits can say just about anything. Only what the ruling says matters, assuming it gets to the point where one is actually made. If it is eventually ruled to be gambling that could be a matter of interest, depending on the outcome.
If I were a company and a small population market like Canada passed this law I would just stop selling products in Canada. I am positive Canadians would still buy the product if they wanted it, and I wouldn't have to change anything.
I hope they do this as it would make me laugh hilariously as all the tyrants that love imposing their tyranny on other people will have a huge middle-finger thrown at them.
Actually, if the case passes in Canada, there is a good chance America will also adopt that policy, given how similar Canada and America are in this regard.
Which I wager is why EA will fight tooth and nail to not let this happen.
When it comes to things deemed bad for you, the typical response of Canadian governments is to either tax it heavily, provide it as exclusively as possible to control the market, or both. Making it go away for the benefit of the citizenry, not so much.
If I were a company and a small population market like Canada passed this law I would just stop selling products in Canada. I am positive Canadians would still buy the product if they wanted it, and I wouldn't have to change anything.
I hope they do this as it would make me laugh hilariously as all the tyrants that love imposing their tyranny on other people will have a huge middle-finger thrown at them.
Actually, if the case passes in Canada, there is a good chance America will also adopt that policy, given how similar Canada and America are in this regard.
Which I wager is why EA will fight tooth and nail to not let this happen.
When it comes to things deemed bad for you, the typical response of Canadian governments is to either tax it heavily, provide it as exclusively as possible to control the market, or both. Making it go away for the benefit of the citizenry, not so much.
The whole legal fight is about (in NA) an "A" vs. "M" rating. The ESRB already uses the "A" rating for games that have clear monetary prizes as part of their game play loop.
Their whole simulated vs. "real" gambling argument hinges on the rewards having no cash value. That distinction is the core battle and losing the fight means only an "A" rating for loot box games. And THAT only means 18+ vs. 17+ which is kind of weird considering the minimum legal gambling age is anywhere between 18 and 21 in different states and also by type of gambling:
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If I were a company and a small population market like Canada passed this law I would just stop selling products in Canada. I am positive Canadians would still buy the product if they wanted it, and I wouldn't have to change anything.
I hope they do this as it would make me laugh hilariously as all the tyrants that love imposing their tyranny on other people will have a huge middle-finger thrown at them.
Actually, if the case passes in Canada, there is a good chance America will also adopt that policy, given how similar Canada and America are in this regard.
Which I wager is why EA will fight tooth and nail to not let this happen.
When it comes to things deemed bad for you, the typical response of Canadian governments is to either tax it heavily, provide it as exclusively as possible to control the market, or both. Making it go away for the benefit of the citizenry, not so much.
I don't anyone is really expecting it "go away", I mean, even if they were flat out declared gambling, it would simply be a matter for the Developer/Publisher to get a licence.
A few keynotes would be however, they would need to tell people it was in fact gambling, unlike what they are doing now, trying to pas sit off as just some RNG mechanic.
They would be under the Gambling Commission, which puts it under federal control, and that means, every time there is a government shutdown, or issue, they have to close down their game.
They cannot make the game available to minors, period.
Now, while none of those things would get rid of Loot Boxes, a lot of game companies might feel that it was not worth the problem to keep them in.
Which is really where the main issue is.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Remember when you all loved GW2 and thought black lion chest were just fine and Halloween boxes we just fine?
Dont make me pull the thread and and point you out.
My how some of us change.
Yeah go find that and show me how I thought they were fine.
Sure. What was your name back then? You did play it didn’t you?
Really even at a glance you could see that the account as been around since 2007. Yes they did play gw2 but given their posts it pretty clear primary focus was on MORTAL online. Even going so far as to say (it's going to turn the industry on it's ears with several revolutionary gameplay elements. This could very well be the death of Themepark games.)
In 20018 they did post a link on lootboxes whos authors are one doctor that claims to be a video games effects expert and someone who may have been working for EA for a very long time. https://psyarxiv.com/u5dmr
In an interesting turn of events a court in The Netherlands has just fined EA for 11.6 million dollars because of loot boxes and gambling. EA had contested this decision before but lost. EA still has six weeks to appeal or they’ll have to cough up the dough. Interesting times ahead for sure.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Some key notes that are easy to miss in the case. One is that they looked at 10 games with lootbox mechanic's and only found 4 that in their view was illegal. I am kind of interested in what mechanic's they used in those other 6 games that did not prompt the same response.
Another is the bulk of the fines are based on the cease and desist they gave EA. In the Canadian case they are trying to claim damages for everyone all the way back to 2008.
Remember when you all loved GW2 and thought black lion chest were just fine and Halloween boxes we just fine?
Dont make me pull the thread and and point you out.
My how some of us change.
I don't like lootboxes or the way some mmos like GW2 and ESO bake lootbox-style mechanics into the game (eg: GW2's endless chest drops that function much like free loot boxes, or ESO's alliance-point spend loot boxes for pvp gear).
However, I still think GW2's monetization as an mmo is more acceptable than what EA and some other companies have been doing with loot boxes and so forth in single player games.
And I still think GW2 has one of the fairest and best monetization models in the industry, in spite of the chests. Certainly it is far more consumer friendly than what ESO is doing, and its B2P model with no p2w makes it easy for people who don't want to or cannot sub to pick up and play while still being on a level playing field. I don't think I can say that of any other mmo.
If I were a company and a small population market like Canada passed this law I would just stop selling products in Canada. I am positive Canadians would still buy the product if they wanted it, and I wouldn't have to change anything.
I hope they do this as it would make me laugh hilariously as all the tyrants that love imposing their tyranny on other people will have a huge middle-finger thrown at them.
First of all you NEED rules/regulations and I am not going to explain why,it should be OBVIOUS. Secondly it is not only about selling in Canada as most of these same laws apply else where,it just so happens to be a Canadian Law firm taking the legal action.Then big business like EA have set up shop in Quebec because they offered and maybe still do offer the best incentives for businesses to operate.
So another offbeat example....
Simply Orange is a mislabeled orange juice,so does it matter the food and drink we consume everyday is labeled proerly,you bet it does and should.Well flip flop scenario,no Canadian law firm has yet to take legal action but the USA government is.
The most important factor is cost and Canada tends to be a weak government when comes to regulating anything as staff tend to be very small and even then they don't seem to care a lot but the giant US has a lot more money and goes after illegal operations with hefty fines.
The overall big picture is that these legal entities tend to lean only towards the lawsuits that are big paydays and simply ignore or are too lazy to approach the small payoff.Example they only sued ONE streamer and that was because he was tied to Disney and they saw a good payday.We all are or should be VERY aware of the many streamers sponsored by developers and not disclosing it. Bottom line is these in game actions have always been very obvious gambling methods but almost no country anywhere has had any laws governing gaming and only related to casino type gambling.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In an interesting turn of events a court in The Netherlands has just fined EA for 11.6 million dollars because of loot boxes and gambling. EA had contested this decision before but lost. EA still has six weeks to appeal or they’ll have to cough up the dough. Interesting times ahead for sure.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
This is fascinating. I am so pleased that some European countries are finally doing something to remove or punish this 'surprise mechanics' because it is defnitely gambling in my book.
Some key notes that are easy to miss in the case. One is that they looked at 10 games with lootbox mechanic's and only found 4 that in their view was illegal. I am kind of interested in what mechanic's they used in those other 6 games that did not prompt the same response.
Another is the bulk of the fines are based on the cease and desist they gave EA. In the Canadian case they are trying to claim damages for everyone all the way back to 2008.
I'm also very interested in finding out what criteria they used. Governments are the key to stopping this plague afflicting our games.
This is fascinating. I am so pleased that some European countries are finally doing something to remove or punish this 'surprise mechanics' because it is defnitely gambling in my book.
Not sure why you would say this Kitarad. From what information was released this is not what happened in the Netherlands.
In an interesting turn of events a court in The Netherlands has just fined EA for 11.6 million dollars because of loot boxes and gambling. EA had contested this decision before but lost. EA still has six weeks to appeal or they’ll have to cough up the dough. Interesting times ahead for sure.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
A rounding error I'm sure when compared to the profits made from loot boxes and other surprise mechanics at play in their portfolio.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If I were a company and a small population market like Canada passed this law I would just stop selling products in Canada. I am positive Canadians would still buy the product if they wanted it, and I wouldn't have to change anything.
I hope they do this as it would make me laugh hilariously as all the tyrants that love imposing their tyranny on other people will have a huge middle-finger thrown at them.
Actually, if the case passes in Canada, there is a good chance America will also adopt that policy, given how similar Canada and America are in this regard.
Which I wager is why EA will fight tooth and nail to not let this happen.
I think you may have just insulted a bunch of Canadians.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Now, for me, I don't care. And I still don't care. I don't believe I came out and "thought it was fine." I most likely didn't care. Like I don't righ tnow.
But generalizing is just generalizing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Which I wager is why EA will fight tooth and nail to not let this happen.
Fun fact that some of use might remember is that GW used to track your play time and send you a message along the lines of saying you have been playing for x hours please take a break.
Black Lion Chests look great compared to all of the pay to win that absolutely ravages this genre. The MMO genre is barely more respectable than mobile gaming. That doesn't make them good, and it doesn't exempt them from the loot box conversation. Yes, most of us have come to accept that Black Lion Chests are bad. All lootboxes are bad. Black Lion Chests should be removed, just the same as all other paid gambling, even if their removal would likely kill the game within the year.
Do we get a medal for that realization, or does that medal only go to those with an 8-year raging hate boner? (Seriously, see a doctor - that isn't meant to last longer than 4 hours.).
We have some crazy politicians in the USA but i don't think any of them are suicidal enough to target TOPPS. Claiming they have been using predatory tactic's on children for over 50 years and that their card packs are illegal gambling.
Lawsuits can say just about anything. Only what the ruling says matters, assuming it gets to the point where one is actually made. If it is eventually ruled to be gambling that could be a matter of interest, depending on the outcome.
When it comes to things deemed bad for you, the typical response of Canadian governments is to either tax it heavily, provide it as exclusively as possible to control the market, or both. Making it go away for the benefit of the citizenry, not so much.
Their whole simulated vs. "real" gambling argument hinges on the rewards having no cash value. That distinction is the core battle and losing the fight means only an "A" rating for loot box games. And THAT only means 18+ vs. 17+ which is kind of weird considering the minimum legal gambling age is anywhere between 18 and 21 in different states and also by type of gambling:
https://www.gambling.com/us/laws/legal-gambling-age-in-the-us
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
A few keynotes would be however, they would need to tell people it was in fact gambling, unlike what they are doing now, trying to pas sit off as just some RNG mechanic.
They would be under the Gambling Commission, which puts it under federal control, and that means, every time there is a government shutdown, or issue, they have to close down their game.
They cannot make the game available to minors, period.
Now, while none of those things would get rid of Loot Boxes, a lot of game companies might feel that it was not worth the problem to keep them in.
Which is really where the main issue is.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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In 20018 they did post a link on lootboxes whos authors are one doctor that claims to be a video games effects expert and someone who may have been working for EA for a very long time.
https://psyarxiv.com/u5dmr
That was posted one year after a review that was more valid and in-depth was done on the effects of gaming.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00248/full#B102
It's a solid read even if you skip down to the reward processing and addiction section.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Another is the bulk of the fines are based on the cease and desist they gave EA. In the Canadian case they are trying to claim damages for everyone all the way back to 2008.
I don't like lootboxes or the way some mmos like GW2 and ESO bake lootbox-style mechanics into the game (eg: GW2's endless chest drops that function much like free loot boxes, or ESO's alliance-point spend loot boxes for pvp gear).
However, I still think GW2's monetization as an mmo is more acceptable than what EA and some other companies have been doing with loot boxes and so forth in single player games.
And I still think GW2 has one of the fairest and best monetization models in the industry, in spite of the chests. Certainly it is far more consumer friendly than what ESO is doing, and its B2P model with no p2w makes it easy for people who don't want to or cannot sub to pick up and play while still being on a level playing field. I don't think I can say that of any other mmo.
Secondly it is not only about selling in Canada as most of these same laws apply else where,it just so happens to be a Canadian Law firm taking the legal action.Then big business like EA have set up shop in Quebec because they offered and maybe still do offer the best incentives for businesses to operate.
So another offbeat example....
Simply Orange is a mislabeled orange juice,so does it matter the food and drink we consume everyday is labeled proerly,you bet it does and should.Well flip flop scenario,no Canadian law firm has yet to take legal action but the USA government is.
The most important factor is cost and Canada tends to be a weak government when comes to regulating anything as staff tend to be very small and even then they don't seem to care a lot but the giant US has a lot more money and goes after illegal operations with hefty fines.
The overall big picture is that these legal entities tend to lean only towards the lawsuits that are big paydays and simply ignore or are too lazy to approach the small payoff.Example they only sued ONE streamer and that was because he was tied to Disney and they saw a good payday.We all are or should be VERY aware of the many streamers sponsored by developers and not disclosing it.
Bottom line is these in game actions have always been very obvious gambling methods but almost no country anywhere has had any laws governing gaming and only related to casino type gambling.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
How is The Secret World or Age of Wushu doing btw?
I'm also very interested in finding out what criteria they used. Governments are the key to stopping this plague afflicting our games.
“See, your problem is that you are a gambler and want to feel like your mass key buying was justified.”
As the courts and most gamers see it nowadays, you were blaming victim...
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/367855/black-lion-chests-event/p3
This is fascinating. I am so pleased that some European countries are finally doing something to remove or punish this 'surprise mechanics' because it is defnitely gambling in my book.
Not sure why you would say this Kitarad. From what information was released this is not what happened in the Netherlands.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon