Look I'm not saying I'm the G.O.A.T. Generally I am in the top 1%-5% of most games I play. I am not saying every game I play I do that, because sometimes I quit because I don't like it. But its not hard to get to the top tier.
Back in the Day I was ranked in top 10 USA in an RTS. I have lead a Server First Guild in WoW 2004-2005. ESO our guild was ranked high on Leaderboards DAOC I was a top PVPer competitor
These are a few, yeah I have done some things. I am not saying I was the best, I am just saying I like hard content, and that I used to go Hardcore into games. I didn't say I was World First in WOW.
Plus I didn't say PVP was faceroll. I said I don't like gankfest games anymore.
What's your point, why you calling me out for being hardcore? You think its not possible to be in top tier of multiple games over 25 years?
Plus you act like Limit is gods or something LOL. I could be on those teams if I wanted to commit the time to it. Sometimes I get caught up and start drifting that way, but I have to pull myself back. I have a company to run, its not good or fun to push myself that far actually. Its a huge time commitment.
I get my feathers ruffled when I see really arrogant people try to brag like they were amazing back in the day, which isn't a problem, it's when they say that today people are coddled and the content is all faceroll easy. It's like, no, you may very well have been a great player, in your small circle, back in the early 00's. But, that's a far cry from being say Challenger in League of Legends today out of MILLIONS of players.
Server first in WoW for what fights? Server first Rag, or Server first C'Thun, it's a big difference... Also, why is that somehow harder than server first mythic kil'jaeden? We literally had people using addons that told them where to stand on that fight and couldn't complete it for many months after it was released.
What does a TOP pvp competitor even mean in DAOC? What guild were you apart of, what server did you play? I knew almost all of the "top" guilds in DAOC because I was heavily involved in the Classic servers where they all ended up coming to prove their supreme dominance. Before that, I was on Mordred for years when the blue invasion happened for the same reason. That's why I listed off the guilds.
Yes, Limit's achievements are WORLD first in comparison to a Server First, that's a huge difference, it's a salaried difference. If you could just hop into limit, I think you're doing yourself a disservice hiding behind a company. Unless you're earning millions, because those players with their sponsors, salaries, and fan support through social media and streaming... They're millionaires.
I'm sure you are quite busy now days, having responsibilities is a big deal, and I'm not trying to claim that what you did in your day was meaningless. I'm trying to defend present day gamers from someone trying to tear them down.
Ya but I am not saying endgame content is not difficult today. All I was saying is I am a hardcore gamer and like hard content, so end game is the only content I can play and still enjoy, because all the other content is on EZ mode.
You are over here accusing me like I don't do endgame content or something.
It also doesn't matter if the current content is technically more challenging if all the current technology is making it trivial. It really only matters is what tier player is the games catering too right now. What percent of the player base is being challenged by the majority of content it offers.
The average player back in the day was more challenged in games than the average player is today.
If they want to make games equivalent in difficulty today, they need to overcome the current technology advantage and factor that in when setting the difficulty level.
lahnmir said: Also, tedious and convoluted don’t equal difficulty, a mistake often made.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
What does equal difficulty, if I may ask?
Should we take another shot at equating corpse runs with difficulty? I always enjoy those topics
It isn't the corpse run it's everything we do to avoid the corpse run that makes it challenging.
I'd argue that the corpse run is what tends to make people avoid challenge.
And yet there are people who LOVE to play roguelikes *wink*
Love Rogue Likes and still love running around in Felucca in UO , its a an approach and mentallity as to what an individual sees as Challenge Risk vs Reward ..
lahnmir said: Also, tedious and convoluted don’t equal difficulty, a mistake often made.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
What does equal difficulty, if I may ask?
Should we take another shot at equating corpse runs with difficulty? I always enjoy those topics
It isn't the corpse run it's everything we do to avoid the corpse run that makes it challenging.
I'd argue that the corpse run is what tends to make people avoid challenge.
And yet there are people who LOVE to play roguelikes *wink*
Love Rogue Likes and still love running around in Felucca in UO , its a an approach and mentallity as to what an individual sees as Challenge Risk vs Reward ..
Today's MMO's offer a lot of cookie cutter classes. Much like the real world, it's blasphemy to claim individuality. To stand out from the crowd. The OP made a great point how diversity lead to what should have been an inevitable death into a grand escape, simply because of different skill sets.
We still play MMOs where everyone runs the same speed. Everyone can tank, dps and heal. Everyone looks the same. Everyone has the same grand story where they are the sole hero to save the day, until 5 minutes later, the next guy does the same thing, blah blah blah.
Character creation allows players to define themselves. Skills instead of classes allow a player to shine just an ounce of individuality. Dynamic or *gasp* non-repeatable quests. Heaven forbid, the masses complain because they can't solo everything. People are clueless on how to adapt and overcome. Selfishly and aimlessly wandering the landscape with only one desire, speed running through content.
I know this can get a bit tiring but when I played Everquest even when we all basically put the same points in our attributes as lets say a wizard class, no two people ever played the class like the other. There were clear differences between who were good players and who were not even when they had the same 8 spells equipped. It had to do with what decisions we made while in a group that determined our competency and often individuality. I could clearly pick out the good enchanters or necromancers, druids even when they were players who were not so well equipped. That means the game had the ability to showcase skill of the individual even when people wore the same things.
Today's MMO's offer a lot of cookie cutter classes. Much like the real world, it's blasphemy to claim individuality. To stand out from the crowd. The OP made a great point how diversity lead to what should have been an inevitable death into a grand escape, simply because of different skill sets.
We still play MMOs where everyone runs the same speed. Everyone can tank, dps and heal. Everyone looks the same. Everyone has the same grand story where they are the sole hero to save the day, until 5 minutes later, the next guy does the same thing, blah blah blah.
Character creation allows players to define themselves. Skills instead of classes allow a player to shine just an ounce of individuality. Dynamic or *gasp* non-repeatable quests. Heaven forbid, the masses complain because they can't solo everything. People are clueless on how to adapt and overcome. Selfishly and aimlessly wandering the landscape with only one desire, speed running through content.
I know this can get a bit tiring but when I played Everquest even when we all basically put the same points in our attributes as lets say a wizard class, no two people ever played the class like the other. There were clear differences between who were good players and who were not even when they had the same 8 spells equipped. It had to do with what decisions we made while in a group that determined our competency and often individuality. I could clearly pick out the good enchanters or necromancers, druids even when they were players who were not so well equipped. That means the game had the ability to showcase skill of the individual even when people wore the same things.
Too often these days, everyone plays with the same mentality when grouped as when solo. Everyone tries to nuke their socks off, self heal and agro management is a forgotten art. Crowd control? Is that still a thing? 'Maximize DPS' is becoming the only way to play, regardless of class or abilities.
Players in a group seem to use the same skills, in the same rotations/patterns as they would when soloing. Often the game doesn't provide different tools to use in groups, only the same basic skills/spells/abilities. Even with games with a variety of skills/spells, players don't seem to take the time to change out skills/spells to meet the situations.
The distinctions between 'good player' and 'bad player' is changing. The 'good player' is simply the one who does the most damage. This feels a bit too much like 'might makes right' to me.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Today's MMO's offer a lot of cookie cutter classes. Much like the real world, it's blasphemy to claim individuality. To stand out from the crowd. The OP made a great point how diversity lead to what should have been an inevitable death into a grand escape, simply because of different skill sets.
We still play MMOs where everyone runs the same speed. Everyone can tank, dps and heal. Everyone looks the same. Everyone has the same grand story where they are the sole hero to save the day, until 5 minutes later, the next guy does the same thing, blah blah blah.
Character creation allows players to define themselves. Skills instead of classes allow a player to shine just an ounce of individuality. Dynamic or *gasp* non-repeatable quests. Heaven forbid, the masses complain because they can't solo everything. People are clueless on how to adapt and overcome. Selfishly and aimlessly wandering the landscape with only one desire, speed running through content.
Going to say, in DDO there is no such thing as a Cookie cutter build, there are way too many options to build from.
DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) is really as dynamic as the Table Top game.
So, I want you to imagine something.. you sit down to play a game, you get your ViP because, it's time to play and you want the whole deal.
You start off with having 14 races to choose from, there are also 6 more "Iconic" races, you can take (for a total of 20). Iconic means they are Icons, a Race/Class linked set up, like for example, a Bladeforged, is a Warforged that is the Iconic Example of Paladin of the Lord of Blades, and thus gifted additional abilities in that venture to be apex in that venture.
Not so say much on that one, but I have my feels against Warforged Paladins in general, some people love them. I am not among those people.. so I'm gonna stop there.
Then you have Classes. You have 15 classes to chose from.
Here is the fun part. You can mix up to 3 classes as you level.
Want to play a Barbarian, Thief, Wizard... well.. you can. I don't know how good it will be.. but you can play it, and I am sure someone has made that work, and kicks ass with it. I know I did a barbarian, thief, favored soul, and it was a beast in it's own right.
There are limits, like Paladins need to be Lawful Good, and bards can't be lawful, so you will never play a Paladin/Bard. The world weeps a bit. but such is the case of the game.
Now, each class has 3 Enhancement lines. Like Fighter has Kensei, Stalwart Defender, and Vanguard.
So you get 3 Enchantment lines per class, Up to 9 Max.
There are 5 more General Enhancement lines that can be used by anyone, like Harper Agent, Vistani Knife Fighter, Falconry, Illusionist, Inquisitive.
a Racial Enhancement line.. liked to your race.. like Warforged, and this what really separated a Warforged from a Bladeforged is the Enhancement line.
and.. then OMG the gear and mobs.
Have you ever played an MMO, and you hit a mob that looks like it's made from fire with a flaming weapon, and the flame from your weapon damages the mob.. because.. it's all just damage, with no care of the actual source or what it hits?
Well DDO does not do that. That Fire Elemental, is immune to being hurt by fire, so if you opted to play a Wizard in that Dungeon called Taming the Flames, a really good time to get some Ice and cold spells would be, before you go in, you're going to need them.
Same holds true for that Trusty Flaming Longsword.. might want to get a nice Frosty one, as well as armor that protects you from fire.. because it's about to get hot, and no.. that Armor of "resist acid" won't help you, it needs to be fire.
Yah.. Yah.. I know.. that Sun Blade is the shizzle shits... yah.. none of the stats that make it awesome helps against a construct.. might want to get a Mace of Smiting instead.. so.. yah, there you have it, there is no one weapon to rule them all, get ready for gear and weapon swaps.. yes, it's part of the game.
Equally so.. being able to be self sufficient is a huge part of DDO, so if you think someone is going to play a healer to run behind your big beefy barb and heal you.. yah.. in DDO, don't be shocked if the cleric has several fighter levels, gets into the quest, pulls out their great axe, buffs you all up, because cleric buffs rule.. and then charges off like a psychopath looking for blood and you have to struggle to keep up with them.
Yes.. if that is what you like.. DDO might be the game for you.
Lagging off into a pit of lava is a game feature™ so that also comes with it being an old buggy ass game, but still quite fun and enjoyable, to those that like it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Today's MMO's offer a lot of cookie cutter classes. Much like the real world, it's blasphemy to claim individuality. To stand out from the crowd. The OP made a great point how diversity lead to what should have been an inevitable death into a grand escape, simply because of different skill sets.
We still play MMOs where everyone runs the same speed. Everyone can tank, dps and heal. Everyone looks the same. Everyone has the same grand story where they are the sole hero to save the day, until 5 minutes later, the next guy does the same thing, blah blah blah.
Character creation allows players to define themselves. Skills instead of classes allow a player to shine just an ounce of individuality. Dynamic or *gasp* non-repeatable quests. Heaven forbid, the masses complain because they can't solo everything. People are clueless on how to adapt and overcome. Selfishly and aimlessly wandering the landscape with only one desire, speed running through content.
I know this can get a bit tiring but when I played Everquest even when we all basically put the same points in our attributes as lets say a wizard class, no two people ever played the class like the other. There were clear differences between who were good players and who were not even when they had the same 8 spells equipped. It had to do with what decisions we made while in a group that determined our competency and often individuality. I could clearly pick out the good enchanters or necromancers, druids even when they were players who were not so well equipped. That means the game had the ability to showcase skill of the individual even when people wore the same things.
Too often these days, everyone plays with the same mentality when grouped as when solo. Everyone tries to nuke their socks off, self heal and agro management is a forgotten art. Crowd control? Is that still a thing? 'Maximize DPS' is becoming the only way to play, regardless of class or abilities.
Players in a group seem to use the same skills, in the same rotations/patterns as they would when soloing. Often the game doesn't provide different tools to use in groups, only the same basic skills/spells/abilities. Even with games with a variety of skills/spells, players don't seem to take the time to change out skills/spells to meet the situations.
The distinctions between 'good player' and 'bad player' is changing. The 'good player' is simply the one who does the most damage. This feels a bit too much like 'might makes right' to me.
I would almost assuredly die more in WoW than in UO, as I don't even have to kill monsters in order to max my skills, I can use macro's and exploit mobs to do that, whereas I can't do that in wow...
Like, I'm not trying to be a d-bag about this, the details matter. Do I think that your average 12 year old playing WoW today, has an easier time experiencing the content, than I did playing UO in the 90's? Yes. But, the question becomes why?
Well, that's where we have to make the distinctions and define our metrics. For me personally, that's due to a lack of knowledge provided and internet resources. WoW provided a lot of that stuff to us at launch, substantially more than UO did for sure.
If I could go back and play both games when they were launched, with the knowledge and resources I have available today, both games would be extremely trivial, all the way through all their content.
Make the same argument, but release wow in a vacuum with no knowledge / resources... I am not sure I would have made it very far in that game, not nearly as quickly. Can you imagine having to keep up with where every quest giver was, much less even seeing the quests? If there was no visual indicator or guide or anything like that, I bet half of us would have gotten stuck on an early chain and never been able to progress the quest series further.
We'd have been stuck grinding mobs like we did in UO. Then, we wouldn't know where to go, we'd have to explore the same way. It'd be very very different from the experience we had.
Look why are you even trying to compare WoW now without all the advantages to UO back then? You didn't have the tools back then, so the difficulty was higher. So therefore the experience was higher.
That's like saying, if you could go back and take your College final exam with all the answers it would be easier than taking a new test without all the answers? If the final is open book, you should expect it to be harder otherwise everyone would get an easy A. WTF kind of comparison is that anyway.
At the time there wasn't the same tools during UO. In WoW now they do have all the technologies and guides. The game needs to way more difficult to account for all the new information. I will tell you thou, you don't even need guides or any new technology to face roll leveling in Current Wow.
If you are dieing a lot while leveling in current WoW your skill is just LOL. I mean come on man, this content while leveling is face roll really. Geez people blowing through dungeons now you cant even pickup loot its moving so fast. People are struggling just to get a hit in on bosses because they die so fast.
Finally, I don't even know why your arguing about this. WoW execs admit openly the game was geared to casual players. There are plenty of quotes from the CEO alone stating they made the game for casuals. WoW has always appealed to casual gamers, that's why they made so much money, I just personally think they swung the pendulum too far now its on super EZ mode.
You go on thinking WoW is hardcore. LOL 1 man army.
Look why are you even trying to compare WoW now without all the advantages to UO back then? You didn't have the tools back then, so the difficulty was higher. So therefore the experience was higher.
That's like saying, if you could go back and take your College final exam with all the answers it would be easier than taking a new test without all the answers? If the final is open book, you should expect it to be harder otherwise everyone would get an easy A. WTF kind of comparison is that anyway.
Because that would solve the dispute of if UO was indeed a harder game to play than WoW. We'd need to put both in a vacuum, see which is harder for the majority of players to complete.
Now, like I said, if your entire point from the beginning wasn't that UO was inherently harder, but that the gamers were less equipped, then absolutely I agree with that statement.
But, you originally compared apples to oranges, I'm saying compare them evenly. If UO had the present day knowledge and guide that WoW does, just from the in game menu's, people would have completed the content WAY easier, and thus trivializing the experience.
Either both exams need to be open book, or both exams need to be closed book, you can't compare them otherwise, at least fairly.
All i can speak of is personal experience , i was playing UO( still do) right up to Wow beta( side note i had already invested in Blizz under Vivendi ) ..
My group of friends wanted to jump in so we did ..
Wow felt from beginning to end game raiding like a complete carebear cakewalk compared to UO ...
Now i go back to Wow each expansion and have fun with it , but it still feels easy compared to UO .. yes even today .... imo
Everyone miles will vary with these games so the pissing contest is really meaningless
All i can speak of is personal experience , i was playing UO( still do) right up to Wow beta( side note i had already invested in Blizz under Vivendi ) ..
My group of friends wanted to jump in so we did ..
Wow felt from beginning to end game raiding like a complete carebear cakewalk compared to UO ...
Now i go back to Wow each expansion and have fun with it , but it still feels easy compared to UO .. yes even today .... imo
Everyone miles will vary with these games so the pissing contest is really meaningless
I mean, it's kind of odd when you admittedly play UO for constellation research and plant cloning currently... Although I have no idea what the tears of the ice dragon event entailed, so that could have been PVE/PVP no clue.
I totally agree that WoW was designed to be easier to go from level 1 power to max level power and approach the end game much faster / simply than UO was. But, that wasn't the original argument being made. It was very hyperbolicly stated that present day gamers would wither under the brutal hand of UO's original design, and I just don't think that assertion is accurate.
I agree that the pissing contests are meaningless, it's why I originally got involved in this debate. I didn't like the down talk that comes from "oldschool" "hardcore gamers about present day MMO's, especially because I come from the same roots as they do. I don't see it as a pissing contest. I think WoW and present day MMO's pose different challenges than we faced in UO. I haven't played UO since like 02/03, so I have NO idea what the content is like now days and I wouldn't want to try and debate it live vs live.
heh .. I play UO for ALL the content ( trust me) that is what i was doing while waiting on event or guild raid to Fel .. which we did some T maps there .. ran into 2 reds ... they died ...
Sooo no need to cherry pick to make a senseless dig ..
I mean, it's kind of odd when you admittedly play UO for constellation research and plant cloning currently... Although I have no idea what the tears of the ice dragon event entailed, so that could have been PVE/PVP no clue.
Why would that be odd?
If anything, I'd say that's the type of stuff we need more of in mmorpg's. Multiple avenues for entertainment, multiple things to do.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If anything, I'd say that's the type of stuff we need more of in mmorpg's. Multiple avenues for entertainment, multiple things to do.
It's not odd to want to do those things in an MMO, or that those things are enjoyable, I rather envy him. I really truly wish I could enjoy playing games for those reason.
It's odd to comment on a debate between if UO or WoW is harder, when that's what you do for fun. Typically that content wouldn't be considered hard or easy, it's more cosmetic to the game. I also wasn't trying to make a pointless dig by pointing that out.
you are not reading the thread or intentionally omitting fact to form your opinions
It probably seems that way because Brainy was making a point that he was a hardcore bad ass at video games and claimed that present day MMO's were a joke:
I think there is a tiny bit of truth to the part where I like to not be a faceless shadow, but your reasoning is not correct. First no matter what game I play, I am a hardcore gamer, I focus on 1 game and am ALWAYS at the top of the leaderboards quickly. Whether its UO, DAOC, WOW, ESO, or WOW classic, I'm at the top, its not even a problem at all for me. I like leading server first guilds, I like the challenge of strategizing difficult content for the first time. I also like difficult content because it usually forces people to work together in synergy to beat it.
I like how ESO would release new dungeons in an expansion, and trying to get those skins before there were guides out on how to beat them was fun. Now ESO dungeons are all on EZ mode. Either way an occasional yearly release of a new dungeon is not enough to keep me interested.
So yeah I like games when they first come out, and when the challenge is at its peak. I rarely last more than a year in 1 game, although for that time I am hardcore.
I don't like gankfest games anymore. Although I was very active in PVP years ago.
Any new PVE MMO games now, pretty much are so EZ I can beat them sleeping. I like areas that require skill, and not just time /played.
Then right underneath that you made the statement: "How dare me have fun in UO for 24 years going now ......" Which I replied to:
Hmm so much to do .. tonite im looking for undiscovered constellations ( maybe find one and get to name another )
Cross breeding some plants , There may be a live event tonite so .. chilling a bit till then
So, I thought you were tagging along to that level of discussion, which doesn't seem to be the case.
I think there were several points being made in the thread, easy to get confused on who was making what point, these forums aren't the greatest layout.
LMFAO and you surmised from that my UO activities and thru a blanket over them to form your weak opinion ..
I did say was chilling till an event also in that comment ..
Look why are you even trying to compare WoW now without all the advantages to UO back then? You didn't have the tools back then, so the difficulty was higher. So therefore the experience was higher.
That's like saying, if you could go back and take your College final exam with all the answers it would be easier than taking a new test without all the answers? If the final is open book, you should expect it to be harder otherwise everyone would get an easy A. WTF kind of comparison is that anyway.
Because that would solve the dispute of if UO was indeed a harder game to play than WoW. We'd need to put both in a vacuum, see which is harder for the majority of players to complete.
Now, like I said, if your entire point from the beginning wasn't that UO was inherently harder, but that the gamers were less equipped, then absolutely I agree with that statement.
But, you originally compared apples to oranges, I'm saying compare them evenly. If UO had the present day knowledge and guide that WoW does, just from the in game menu's, people would have completed the content WAY easier, and thus trivializing the experience.
Either both exams need to be open book, or both exams need to be closed book, you can't compare them otherwise, at least fairly.
If you believe WoW is a more difficult MMORPG than UO, that's your prerogative. No one else is being forced to believe as you do, and vice versa
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It probably seems that way because Brainy was making a point that he was a hardcore bad ass at video games and claimed that present day MMO's were a joke:
LOL what a total misreading of what I said. I was saying content is only difficult when it first comes out and not years later because of nerfs or buffs. I even gave an example of ESO new content being fun and difficult, but 1 expansion a year doesn't keep me interested. So I like full new games the best because all the content is new and harder at first.
I was saying I was a hardcore gamer that likes difficult content which is only endgame content in todays MMO's. That I cant enjoy EZ mode content. At no point did I say I was a complete badass.
It is you with your posters of LIMIT guild all over your room, drooling like they are Gods or something that don't read forums.
What I learned from this thread... DDO sounds really cool, not sure if I'll enjoy it. But I'll boot her up. I loved table top AD&D...
While I don't play on Argo, I suggest it, because it is one of the most populated servers.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I mean, it's kind of odd when you admittedly play UO for constellation research and plant cloning currently... Although I have no idea what the tears of the ice dragon event entailed, so that could have been PVE/PVP no clue.
Why would that be odd?
If anything, I'd say that's the type of stuff we need more of in mmorpg's. Multiple avenues for entertainment, multiple things to do.
That kind of stuff adds a lot to my enjoyment too. I love the wide scope of things to get involved in.
I always wanted UO to add constellations, meteors, etc., and was among a number of players asking for that. I have been thinking of going back to UO, only time availability is holding me back.
The plants system was excellent. I wasn't into it enough to do a lot of it, but when they came out with the black and white dyes from plants I did that. It was a bit tedious to gather what you needed from the Ant nests, so a lot of players didn't make those runs. But I liked the coin and the knowledge that I was doing something a little bit rare in the game world.
I studied the mysteries too. I discovered the story of what I called "The Black Necklace". https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/487824/the-greatest-quest-artifact-to-ever-exist-in-mmorpgs#latest I spent years researching that. Both through all the old Lore and GM Events, as well as exploring the game world for hints placed during updates. It was tedious, but very enjoyable as a thing that no one else was aware of. When I posted it as a news story at Stratics, I had lots of views and some "wow!" comments, along with the typical negativity. Too bad that the GMs had changed over and they didn't know what to do with it, and just ended it. They did give me the courtesy of writing up a story to take that Black Necklace out of the game, with the Odric (note the similarity to "odd Richard") plot where he poisoned Lord British, and then stole the necklace and sailed away into the sunset.
Great times in a great game, as far as I'm concerned.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
We can still go back to Everquest, roll up a Wood Elf Ranger and even play for free now....So why isn't anyone doing it if they want the old games? My take: It wasn't the games we liked, it was the communities and those are long gone unfortunately.
We can still go back to Everquest, roll up a Wood Elf Ranger and even play for free now....So why isn't anyone doing it if they want the old games? My take: It wasn't the games we liked, it was the communities and those are long gone unfortunately.
The most common explanation I've seen is that they are no longer what they were. The next is a desire instead for old school sensibilities but with a modern aesthetic.
The communities had to originate back then, so if people genuinely wanted that enough there is no reason they couldn't reinvigorate now.
I think in a lot of cases the expressed desire is more lip service than genuine. While it is true the games aren't what they were they are certainly closer to that than anything that was introduced later on.
There could be other issues as well. I tried UO when it started offering f2p but found the graphics to be quite hard on my eyes so wasn't able to give it much of a go. I had played it for a bit quite some time ago and could handle it back then but had switched over to Asheron's Call so didn't experience or remember much of it, but I don't think it I'd be able to explore it much now.
I do play Project:Gorgon which is pretty old school I think, and tried Legends of Aria but found that to be rather meh in terms of performance. The vacillation by the developers of the nature of PvP on the official servers annoyed me as well. I haven't played the latter for some time so have no idea if it runs better now.
Comments
Ya but I am not saying endgame content is not difficult today. All I was saying is I am a hardcore gamer and like hard content, so end game is the only content I can play and still enjoy, because all the other content is on EZ mode.
You are over here accusing me like I don't do endgame content or something.
It also doesn't matter if the current content is technically more challenging if all the current technology is making it trivial. It really only matters is what tier player is the games catering too right now. What percent of the player base is being challenged by the majority of content it offers.
The average player back in the day was more challenged in games than the average player is today.
If they want to make games equivalent in difficulty today, they need to overcome the current technology advantage and factor that in when setting the difficulty level.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) is really as dynamic as the Table Top game.
So, I want you to imagine something.. you sit down to play a game, you get your ViP because, it's time to play and you want the whole deal.
You start off with having 14 races to choose from, there are also 6 more "Iconic" races, you can take (for a total of 20). Iconic means they are Icons, a Race/Class linked set up, like for example, a Bladeforged, is a Warforged that is the Iconic Example of Paladin of the Lord of Blades, and thus gifted additional abilities in that venture to be apex in that venture.
Not so say much on that one, but I have my feels against Warforged Paladins in general, some people love them. I am not among those people.. so I'm gonna stop there.
Then you have Classes. You have 15 classes to chose from.
Here is the fun part. You can mix up to 3 classes as you level.
Want to play a Barbarian, Thief, Wizard... well.. you can. I don't know how good it will be.. but you can play it, and I am sure someone has made that work, and kicks ass with it. I know I did a barbarian, thief, favored soul, and it was a beast in it's own right.
There are limits, like Paladins need to be Lawful Good, and bards can't be lawful, so you will never play a Paladin/Bard. The world weeps a bit. but such is the case of the game.
Now, each class has 3 Enhancement lines. Like Fighter has Kensei, Stalwart Defender, and Vanguard.
So you get 3 Enchantment lines per class, Up to 9 Max.
There are 5 more General Enhancement lines that can be used by anyone, like Harper Agent, Vistani Knife Fighter, Falconry, Illusionist, Inquisitive.
a Racial Enhancement line.. liked to your race.. like Warforged, and this what really separated a Warforged from a Bladeforged is the Enhancement line.
and.. then OMG the gear and mobs.
Have you ever played an MMO, and you hit a mob that looks like it's made from fire with a flaming weapon, and the flame from your weapon damages the mob.. because.. it's all just damage, with no care of the actual source or what it hits?
Well DDO does not do that. That Fire Elemental, is immune to being hurt by fire, so if you opted to play a Wizard in that Dungeon called Taming the Flames, a really good time to get some Ice and cold spells would be, before you go in, you're going to need them.
Same holds true for that Trusty Flaming Longsword.. might want to get a nice Frosty one, as well as armor that protects you from fire.. because it's about to get hot, and no.. that Armor of "resist acid" won't help you, it needs to be fire.
Yah.. Yah.. I know.. that Sun Blade is the shizzle shits... yah.. none of the stats that make it awesome helps against a construct.. might want to get a Mace of Smiting instead.. so.. yah, there you have it, there is no one weapon to rule them all, get ready for gear and weapon swaps.. yes, it's part of the game.
Equally so.. being able to be self sufficient is a huge part of DDO, so if you think someone is going to play a healer to run behind your big beefy barb and heal you.. yah.. in DDO, don't be shocked if the cleric has several fighter levels, gets into the quest, pulls out their great axe, buffs you all up, because cleric buffs rule.. and then charges off like a psychopath looking for blood and you have to struggle to keep up with them.
Yes.. if that is what you like.. DDO might be the game for you.
Lagging off into a pit of lava is a game feature™ so that also comes with it being an old buggy ass game, but still quite fun and enjoyable, to those that like it.
Look why are you even trying to compare WoW now without all the advantages to UO back then? You didn't have the tools back then, so the difficulty was higher. So therefore the experience was higher.
That's like saying, if you could go back and take your College final exam with all the answers it would be easier than taking a new test without all the answers? If the final is open book, you should expect it to be harder otherwise everyone would get an easy A. WTF kind of comparison is that anyway.
At the time there wasn't the same tools during UO. In WoW now they do have all the technologies and guides. The game needs to way more difficult to account for all the new information. I will tell you thou, you don't even need guides or any new technology to face roll leveling in Current Wow.
If you are dieing a lot while leveling in current WoW your skill is just LOL. I mean come on man, this content while leveling is face roll really. Geez people blowing through dungeons now you cant even pickup loot its moving so fast. People are struggling just to get a hit in on bosses because they die so fast.
Finally, I don't even know why your arguing about this. WoW execs admit openly the game was geared to casual players. There are plenty of quotes from the CEO alone stating they made the game for casuals. WoW has always appealed to casual gamers, that's why they made so much money, I just personally think they swung the pendulum too far now its on super EZ mode.
You go on thinking WoW is hardcore. LOL 1 man army.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Its a good game .. its a great game with friends tho
you are not reading the thread or intentionally omitting fact to form your opinions
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
LOL what a total misreading of what I said. I was saying content is only difficult when it first comes out and not years later because of nerfs or buffs. I even gave an example of ESO new content being fun and difficult, but 1 expansion a year doesn't keep me interested.
So I like full new games the best because all the content is new and harder at first.
I was saying I was a hardcore gamer that likes difficult content which is only endgame content in todays MMO's. That I cant enjoy EZ mode content. At no point did I say I was a complete badass.
It is you with your posters of LIMIT guild all over your room, drooling like they are Gods or something that don't read forums.
You are just twisting in the wind now.
I always wanted UO to add constellations, meteors, etc., and was among a number of players asking for that. I have been thinking of going back to UO, only time availability is holding me back.
The plants system was excellent. I wasn't into it enough to do a lot of it, but when they came out with the black and white dyes from plants I did that. It was a bit tedious to gather what you needed from the Ant nests, so a lot of players didn't make those runs. But I liked the coin and the knowledge that I was doing something a little bit rare in the game world.
I studied the mysteries too. I discovered the story of what I called "The Black Necklace".
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/487824/the-greatest-quest-artifact-to-ever-exist-in-mmorpgs#latest
I spent years researching that. Both through all the old Lore and GM Events, as well as exploring the game world for hints placed during updates.
It was tedious, but very enjoyable as a thing that no one else was aware of. When I posted it as a news story at Stratics, I had lots of views and some "wow!" comments, along with the typical negativity.
Too bad that the GMs had changed over and they didn't know what to do with it, and just ended it. They did give me the courtesy of writing up a story to take that Black Necklace out of the game, with the Odric (note the similarity to "odd Richard") plot where he poisoned Lord British, and then stole the necklace and sailed away into the sunset.
Great times in a great game, as far as I'm concerned.
Once upon a time....
Seemed pretty down maybe some time with Pooh , Tiger and the gang will cheer him up
The most common explanation I've seen is that they are no longer what they were. The next is a desire instead for old school sensibilities but with a modern aesthetic.
The communities had to originate back then, so if people genuinely wanted that enough there is no reason they couldn't reinvigorate now.
I think in a lot of cases the expressed desire is more lip service than genuine. While it is true the games aren't what they were they are certainly closer to that than anything that was introduced later on.
There could be other issues as well. I tried UO when it started offering f2p but found the graphics to be quite hard on my eyes so wasn't able to give it much of a go. I had played it for a bit quite some time ago and could handle it back then but had switched over to Asheron's Call so didn't experience or remember much of it, but I don't think it I'd be able to explore it much now.
I do play Project:Gorgon which is pretty old school I think, and tried Legends of Aria but found that to be rather meh in terms of performance. The vacillation by the developers of the nature of PvP on the official servers annoyed me as well. I haven't played the latter for some time so have no idea if it runs better now.