Vanguard, loved that game, But near the end after SOE owned it and before the Cash shop, the population was very low. Good enough to get dungeon groups.
BUT in the open world, players were hard to come by. The reason I'm mentioning this is because MOST open world quest were group quest. Many were undoable alone, some you could pull off if your the crafty type, but for the most part no.
This world was built for a LARGE POPULATION EVERYPLACE, ALL THE TIME.
Unfortunately, all game populations are expected drop..... This game was not allowed to population drop.
Not sure if people really understood this about Vanguard.
I love hard content, but FULL groups were always needed, not just a good player. What were they 5 dots overhead, or something like that ?
Games such as this should not assume FULL populations forever.
"I for one can spot a "flop" way before release.... I'm sure you can too !"
I cannot....I would have predicted a game like Fortnite would have been out of business in a year....No character development, no leveling, no real incentive to play, but it has been a major success like it or not.....When I saw the youtube vids when this first came out, I thought "What a joke"....No one will play that.....but streamers and influencers apparently have a stranglehold on the general gamer population and tell them what to play (and they get paid very well for it too).
More video game developers play games over those that don't play games. It is more lucrative to apply your talents in other industries than video gaming. Like film or television. The vast majority that work in video gaming do so for the love of the industry, not the paycheck. I had a conversation with Cliff Bleszinski about just that a couple months ago. He has been very successful since leaving the gaming industry (The Station is awesome if you are ever in Raleigh, NC) yet he has had an itch to create something video-gamey again. It is a passion play for most.
As I was read this opening paragraph, my thoughts immediately turned to Twitch/YouTube streamers who may make more money than video game designers, as a whole. In other words, if you have talent, you may make more money playing videos games than making them.
All in all, that whole post was an interesting and insightful read, @blueturtle13
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
As I was read this opening paragraph, my thoughts immediately turned to Twitch/YouTube streamers who may make more money than video game designers, as a whole. In other words, if you have talent, you may make more money playing videos games than making them.
All in all, that whole post was an interesting and insightful read, @blueturtle13
That brings me to one of my other OP's (CEO, Management and Marketing sucks)
They take all the money and let the workers and developers out in the cold. It's pretty sad Youtube streamers can make more money.
Vanguard, loved that game, But near the end after SOE owned it and before the Cash shop, the population was very low. Good enough to get dungeon groups.
BUT in the open world, players were hard to come by. The reason I'm mentioning this is because MOST open world quest were group quest. Many were undoable alone, some you could pull off if your the crafty type, but for the most part no.
This world was built for a LARGE POPULATION EVERYPLACE, ALL THE TIME.
Unfortunately, all game populations are expected drop..... This game was not allowed to population drop.
Not sure if people really understood this about Vanguard.
I love hard content, but FULL groups were always needed, not just a good player. What were they 5 dots overhead, or something like that ?
Games such as this should not assume FULL populations forever.
I loved Vanguard too. The problem was that the population dropped quickly due to technical problems. If the population drop had a gentler curve this possibly could have been accounted for in forthcoming content releases. Still, it's my gold standard for MMO's. Rift would be a close second.
Lower Pop MMO's have been a thing and it fostered a different (better IMO) type of community Anyone remember Rubies of Eventide?
Even EQ at least through Kunark - which had higher pop - had a terrific community.
With a great guild and a great community you will get retention. Not for graphics etc. I remember playing WoW for the first time and being so turned off by the chat etc. It was a real culture shock I had to get over as someone coming from a smaller family style guild in EQ.
IMO people will stick around much longer and contribute to the economic needs of a game where they have developed good relationships and the community overall has no tolerance for poor behavior.
We have amazing tools to make better "skins" for games but the basics are still the same. What changes is the community of people that play. As gaming has become more popular there is exposure to a larger number and wider variety of people that play. IMO This is good and difficult at the same time, but I won't go into that as this post is way longer than it should be already.
I personally think that they are TOO in touch. Back in the day, developers made games and if you liked it, you played, if you didn't, it didn't last. That's not to say they were completely isolated, but compared to now...pretty isolated.
Fast forward to today.
Within the community today, we've got a gamers war going on and people are entrenched with their factions and ready to seize the initiative. (You've got the never pve'rs, the full loot pvp'ers, you've got the old school is better faction, while the scrap the old, in with the new faction digs in. Let's not forget two huge factions that wouldnt put out a ? if the opposite faction needed it. Of course I speak of the mighty theme park faction and their arch enemies the anti them park faction(for some reason I've drawn a black on the name). Et al other factions.
You have all these developers who are expected to have forums and moderators and podcasts and email, and everything else Now, the war escalates into battles that take place among the various develope sites and not only on sites like this. Now,con the suggestion areas and question/answer sections, the faction, push and pull this way and that. Always expecting their individual concerns and ideas be acknowledged.
The developers, who are besieged in their strongholds have to fend off the raiders. From here, I think we will recognize the playbook "they don't listen to the community". "they are listening to the wrong faction". The ever popular "if they listen to me" or the variant of "they should have listened to me" etc etc etc
Some developers try to appease everyone, and end end up goings this way then that way in developing their game... Causing delays that the community has stated is better than late, than incomplete. Vwe say that, but when a developer delays, our former approval turns to outrage (kinda like put your money where your mouth is. Only were big on mouth and not on money)
I've ranted too much, my apologies. I had a lot more fodder to support my point of view
In closing, I maintain the they are too in touch and is a problem that we ourselves have created and I see no way out...one last one "if a faction doesn't win the battle, the members of the faction won't play in their sandbox because they don't have the toy they demanded.
On a side note, what factions do you belong to.
I'm generally in the sandbox faction, the. Monthly sub faction and the " there needs to have a player driven economy faction
If you've made it this far, I'd be proud if you were in one of my factions
I'm in the "Make it multiplayer (MMO or otherwise), make it fun" faction.
The particulars of how you please my faction can vary depending on the game. Some games I like the sandbox (Valheim), some games I don't (Atlas). Some games I like the mix of Themepark PVE and PVP for when I'm in the mood (DAOC), some games the Themepark alone - supported by other game loops within the game - is enough (Vanguard), and some games - no matter how slow the progression or how punishing they can be - keep me happy for years because I've found a terrific community and a terrific group of people to play them with (Everquest).
Is it so hard to develop something that I will like for a good many years?
Awww...I liked Wildstar. Everything that was a newer concept was great imo. The only thing that really hamstrung it was holding tightly to the 40-man raid with tedious RNG mechanics from the past.
If an MMO says it's going to be good because <insert dev that had a hit decades ago> is involved, I usually avoid it because I feel like it's always a disaster.
I said this before. Developers dont understand why certain MMOs are successful or why they are not successful. This is why there are so many MMOs with failed designs that many of us knew would flop from the description alone.
"I for one can spot a "flop" way before release.... I'm sure you can too !"
I cannot....I would have predicted a game like Fortnite would have been out of business in a year....No character development, no leveling, no real incentive to play, but it has been a major success like it or not.....When I saw the youtube vids when this first came out, I thought "What a joke"....No one will play that.....but streamers and influencers apparently have a stranglehold on the general gamer population and tell them what to play (and they get paid very well for it too).
Character development and leveling aren't play incentives for everyone. Some would rather have immediate and accessible, as Fortnite shows.
One doesn't have to plan out and work toward a build in Fortnite, and trudge to the end where the game really begins. Fortnite skips right past all that prep and throws players into the game full throttle from the get go, whenever their busy schedule allows.
Fortnite's success was largely based on well serving their chosen audience. Influencers raising awareness of the game helped them build a following, but the inherent appeal of the game to many is what solidified it.
Devs are not out of touch,they are businessmen first and gamers second.Sure there is the VERY odd case of gamer first but far and few in between.CliffyB for example was only an employee at Epic he wasn't in the position to be the brains behind Epic or to worry about finances and such ,he was just working on a game and enjoyed games.He NOW talks about how he would like to get back into games,well doesn't that sort of tell you he was never really a gamer?IMO he was simply influenced by his surroundings,often talked about being bullied and a sort of nerd kid so it would be easy for him to fall into gaming.
The other stuff talked about?Well it is a topic that could go on forever,pages of stuff to discuss,so if i can put it in simpler words i would say people are often NOT in control of themselves.This is why influencers,marketing and advertising work and why businesses will pay a lot of money to these ideals because they work.
Why do they work,well i am not going to talk much about this because many a person will likely feel it is directed at them and take offense.I will say do your own homework on how or why your brain is influenced >>>Brain Plasticity and Behavior.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Devs are not out of touch,they are businessmen first and gamers second.Sure there is the VERY odd case of gamer first but far and few in between.CliffyB for example was only an employee at Epic he wasn't in the position to be the brains behind Epic or to worry about finances and such ,he was just working on a game and enjoyed games.He NOW talks about how he would like to get back into games,well doesn't that sort of tell you he was never really a gamer?IMO he was simply influenced by his surroundings,often talked about being bullied and a sort of nerd kid so it would be easy for him to fall into gaming.
The other stuff talked about?Well it is a topic that could go on forever,pages of stuff to discuss,so if i can put it in simpler words i would say people are often NOT in control of themselves.This is why influencers,marketing and advertising work and why businesses will pay a lot of money to these ideals because they work.
Why do they work,well i am not going to talk much about this because many a person will likely feel it is directed at them and take offense.I will say do your own homework on how or why your brain is influenced >>>Brain Plasticity and Behavior.
This is kind of semantics but relevant. Devs aka developers aka programmers/designers/artists are not businessmen first. People in those creative roles are there because they want to create, and in the case of programmers, take a hefty pay cut to do so in the game industry. With that said, they do have businessmen above them.
Those businessmen aren’t always terrible either, it’s nuanced. A good product owner can help steer the ship in software development/game development or they can do their part in crashing it.
Devs are not out of touch,they are businessmen first and gamers second.Sure there is the VERY odd case of gamer first but far and few in between.CliffyB for example was only an employee at Epic he wasn't in the position to be the brains behind Epic or to worry about finances and such ,he was just working on a game and enjoyed games.He NOW talks about how he would like to get back into games,well doesn't that sort of tell you he was never really a gamer?IMO he was simply influenced by his surroundings,often talked about being bullied and a sort of nerd kid so it would be easy for him to fall into gaming.
The other stuff talked about?Well it is a topic that could go on forever,pages of stuff to discuss,so if i can put it in simpler words i would say people are often NOT in control of themselves.This is why influencers,marketing and advertising work and why businesses will pay a lot of money to these ideals because they work.
Why do they work,well i am not going to talk much about this because many a person will likely feel it is directed at them and take offense.I will say do your own homework on how or why your brain is influenced >>>Brain Plasticity and Behavior.
This is nice, Infact it has me thinking how I can put words to what I'm trying to say.
Theirs business managers, CEO's, Marketing people, BUT I'm talking about the developers, story writers and "most importantly" the people that are the artist that could breath life into the game. The make-it-flow-people.
Even the ones that are both, are nudged into the business and money aspect eventually. I'm completely convinced they turn to the bad side eventually.... Money is the root of all evil.
I'm sure their are collage programmers out their, even young ones fresh out of collage that can make a difference because their artist too.... Putting aside their 4.0 average.
I'm in total belief, THEIR NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE ANY DECISIONS.
The Fat-Cats are in charge... "my way or the highway" after all its my money they tell them in the interview.
No artist need apply!!!!...... just Cash Shop people, pun intended.
How do I know this, I deeply knew a head manager, later to become CEO of Time-Warner Music Division.
He would sell his mother down the river, and make it look nice, he was so smooth.
Whether players like f2p is irrelevant so long as they continue to support it well enough for it to remain the MMORPG marketing model standard.
Ever think the "new marketing standard" is the downfall of mmorpgs ?
Ever ask how happy players are with the currant model, or are we simply putting up with it with no other choice.
Irrelevant my butt
Define "downfall" please. There are F2P and P2P MMORPGS making money hand over fist these days so I need to better understand what your performance measures are.
Regardless, while payment models can arguably impact MMORPGs I think most would agree their current state is the result of multiple influences in combination and can't be attributed to any single factor.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Whether players like f2p is irrelevant so long as they continue to support it well enough for it to remain the MMORPG marketing model standard.
Ever think the "new marketing standard" is the downfall of mmorpgs ?
Ever ask how happy players are with the currant model, or are we simply putting up with it with no other choice.
Irrelevant my butt
Define "downfall" please. There are F2P and P2P MMORPGS making money hand over fist these days so I need to better understand what your performance measures are.
Regardless, while payment models can arguably impact MMORPGs I think most would agree their current state is the result of multiple influences in combination and can't be attributed to any single factor.
Well, don't take this a personal, But I learned on this message board "never respond" to anyone asking you to define anything.
I learned this, not for me alone, but is reading post for years 'from others". It's a set up because NOTHING IS DEFINED HERE. We can never prove anything, hate to say it, but it's all talk....everything.
Please don't take this as an insult, just my personal opinion. You can even call it a quirk, but none the less it's my quirk.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, don't take this a personal, But I learned on this message board "never respond" to anyone asking you to define anything.
I learned this, not for me alone, but is reading post for years 'from others". It's a set up because NOTHING IS DEFINED HERE. We can never prove anything, hate to say it, but it's all talk....everything.
Please don't take this as an insult, just my personal opinion. You can even call it a quirk, but none the less it's my quirk.
Don't take this personally but I call BS.
You stating your opinion is not about proving anything "yet." He asked how do "you" define it and you would say "In my opinion, I define it as .... "
This way he would at least know how you look at it.
Of course, he would then be able to tell you why he thinks it wrong or right.
Otherwise, there is no real point of a forum which is a place to discuss topics and ideas. No actual discussion means you're just painting the virtual canvas with "stuff."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well, don't take this a personal, But I learned on this message board "never respond" to anyone asking you to define anything.
I learned this, not for me alone, but is reading post for years 'from others". It's a set up because NOTHING IS DEFINED HERE. We can never prove anything, hate to say it, but it's all talk....everything.
Please don't take this as an insult, just my personal opinion. You can even call it a quirk, but none the less it's my quirk.
Don't take this personally but I call BS.
You stating your opinion is not about proving anything "yet." He asked how do "you" define it and you would say "In my opinion, I define it as .... "
This way he would at least know how you look at it.
Of course, he would then be able to tell you why he thinks it wrong or right.
Otherwise, there is no real point of a forum which is a place to discuss topics and ideas. No actual discussion means you're just painting the virtual canvas with "stuff."
Now defined what you defined, this can go on forever..... maybe just my quirk, but it's just a sore spot in my case.
Whether players like f2p is irrelevant so long as they continue to support it well enough for it to remain the MMORPG marketing model standard.
Ever think the "new marketing standard" is the downfall of mmorpgs ?
Ever ask how happy players are with the currant model, or are we simply putting up with it with no other choice.
Irrelevant my butt
I did before it became the new marketing standard. I argued against it regularly and passionately and was routinely dismissed by the many proponents of it at the time.
Once it was overwhelming embraced and what I and others predicted came to pass, over time the majority came to argue against it regularly and passionately.
Well, the time to act was before it became entrenched. If players had rejected f2p when it was first introduced it would have been seen as a failed experiment and abandoned because at that time is was as yet unproven.
Now it's too late. The revenue potential of the model is well established and it is dug in solid. It doesn't matter how much players like it. They have to deal with it regardless because they helped make the market what it is.
So yes, what players feel about f2p now is irrelevant. The time to care and act was when this dragon was barely hatched. It could have been defeated with trifling effort then compared to the virtually insurmountable challenge it would be today.
In summary, the angst of players on this is too little and too late to matter, and thus we must deal with what we have rather than what we want.
And I have to agree, the real question of this topic is not so much "Devs" can fill a vast array of positions within a company but if the person in charge, the one calling the shots , is out of touch with what gamers want or not.
Now some might call this nit picking, splitting hairs, or just making the discussion nuanced, but, it's really not. Ideally, as pointed out, there is someone in charge, the Executive Producer, or whatever, this person is the one that makes the judgment calls, the other people building the game as @blueturtle13 pointed out, don't have much say in the process, they are hired to do a job, be it, make something work, create art, whatever, they are not there to dump their feelings on the table if they think this is a good idea or not, that means, the person that matters, the only person that matters, is the person making the overall design decisions, regardless of this persons title.
With that set out.. the question would be. Overall, is THAT person out of touch or not.
For me, as I see it, largely, I would wager they are not gamers, as all too often the people at the top of the chain are very busty people, if they are doing their job right, they are busy people, and not often the people that have many extra hours in their week to devote to games.
Which leads me to the next question. If they are not gamers, and don't really get involved in games, who or what influences their decisions the most?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
But near the end after SOE owned it and before the Cash shop, the population was very low. Good enough to get dungeon groups.
BUT in the open world, players were hard to come by. The reason I'm mentioning this is because MOST open world quest were group quest. Many were undoable alone, some you could pull off if your the crafty type, but for the most part no.
This world was built for a LARGE POPULATION EVERYPLACE, ALL THE TIME.
Unfortunately, all game populations are expected drop..... This game was not allowed to population drop.
Not sure if people really understood this about Vanguard.
I love hard content, but FULL groups were always needed, not just a good player.
What were they 5 dots overhead, or something like that ?
Games such as this should not assume FULL populations forever.
All in all, that whole post was an interesting and insightful read, @blueturtle13
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
They take all the money and let the workers and developers out in the cold.
It's pretty sad Youtube streamers can make more money.
Lower Pop MMO's have been a thing and it fostered a different (better IMO) type of community Anyone remember Rubies of Eventide?
Even EQ at least through Kunark - which had higher pop - had a terrific community.
With a great guild and a great community you will get retention. Not for graphics etc. I remember playing WoW for the first time and being so turned off by the chat etc. It was a real culture shock I had to get over as someone coming from a smaller family style guild in EQ.
IMO people will stick around much longer and contribute to the economic needs of a game where they have developed good relationships and the community overall has no tolerance for poor behavior.
We have amazing tools to make better "skins" for games but the basics are still the same. What changes is the community of people that play. As gaming has become more popular there is exposure to a larger number and wider variety of people that play. IMO This is good and difficult at the same time, but I won't go into that as this post is way longer than it should be already.
The particulars of how you please my faction can vary depending on the game. Some games I like the sandbox (Valheim), some games I don't (Atlas). Some games I like the mix of Themepark PVE and PVP for when I'm in the mood (DAOC), some games the Themepark alone - supported by other game loops within the game - is enough (Vanguard), and some games - no matter how slow the progression or how punishing they can be - keep me happy for years because I've found a terrific community and a terrific group of people to play them with (Everquest).
Is it so hard to develop something that I will like for a good many years?
/self-depreciating humer off
If an MMO says it's going to be good because <insert dev that had a hit decades ago> is involved, I usually avoid it because I feel like it's always a disaster.
I said this before. Developers dont understand why certain MMOs are successful or why they are not successful. This is why there are so many MMOs with failed designs that many of us knew would flop from the description alone.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Character development and leveling aren't play incentives for everyone. Some would rather have immediate and accessible, as Fortnite shows.
One doesn't have to plan out and work toward a build in Fortnite, and trudge to the end where the game really begins. Fortnite skips right past all that prep and throws players into the game full throttle from the get go, whenever their busy schedule allows.
Fortnite's success was largely based on well serving their chosen audience. Influencers raising awareness of the game helped them build a following, but the inherent appeal of the game to many is what solidified it.
Or that many people actually like f2p because a good portion of game players are actually f2p?
Whether players like f2p is irrelevant so long as they continue to support it well enough for it to remain the MMORPG marketing model standard.
Ever ask how happy players are with the currant model, or are we simply putting up with it with no other choice.
Irrelevant my butt
Let me see if i can sum it all up.
Devs are not out of touch,they are businessmen first and gamers second.Sure there is the VERY odd case of gamer first but far and few in between.CliffyB for example was only an employee at Epic he wasn't in the position to be the brains behind Epic or to worry about finances and such ,he was just working on a game and enjoyed games.He NOW talks about how he would like to get back into games,well doesn't that sort of tell you he was never really a gamer?IMO he was simply influenced by his surroundings,often talked about being bullied and a sort of nerd kid so it would be easy for him to fall into gaming.
The other stuff talked about?Well it is a topic that could go on forever,pages of stuff to discuss,so if i can put it in simpler words i would say people are often NOT in control of themselves.This is why influencers,marketing and advertising work and why businesses will pay a lot of money to these ideals because they work.
Why do they work,well i am not going to talk much about this because many a person will likely feel it is directed at them and take offense.I will say do your own homework on how or why your brain is influenced >>>Brain Plasticity and Behavior.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Those businessmen aren’t always terrible either, it’s nuanced. A good product owner can help steer the ship in software development/game development or they can do their part in crashing it.
Infact it has me thinking how I can put words to what I'm trying to say.
Theirs business managers, CEO's, Marketing people, BUT I'm talking about the developers, story writers and "most importantly" the people that are the artist that could breath life into the game. The make-it-flow-people.
Even the ones that are both, are nudged into the business and money aspect eventually. I'm completely convinced they turn to the bad side eventually.... Money is the root of all evil.
I'm sure their are collage programmers out their, even young ones fresh out of collage that can make a difference because their artist too.... Putting aside their 4.0 average.
I'm in total belief, THEIR NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE ANY DECISIONS.
The Fat-Cats are in charge... "my way or the highway" after all its my money they tell them in the interview.
No artist need apply!!!!...... just Cash Shop people, pun intended.
How do I know this,
I deeply knew a head manager, later to become CEO of Time-Warner Music Division.
He would sell his mother down the river, and make it look nice, he was so smooth.
This is why we don't have an mmorpg
Regardless, while payment models can arguably impact MMORPGs I think most would agree their current state is the result of multiple influences in combination and can't be attributed to any single factor.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But I learned on this message board "never respond" to anyone asking you to define anything.
I learned this, not for me alone, but is reading post for years 'from others". It's a set up because NOTHING IS DEFINED HERE. We can never prove anything, hate to say it, but it's all talk....everything.
Please don't take this as an insult, just my personal opinion. You can even call it a quirk, but none the less it's my quirk.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I did before it became the new marketing standard. I argued against it regularly and passionately and was routinely dismissed by the many proponents of it at the time.
Once it was overwhelming embraced and what I and others predicted came to pass, over time the majority came to argue against it regularly and passionately.
Well, the time to act was before it became entrenched. If players had rejected f2p when it was first introduced it would have been seen as a failed experiment and abandoned because at that time is was as yet unproven.
Now it's too late. The revenue potential of the model is well established and it is dug in solid. It doesn't matter how much players like it. They have to deal with it regardless because they helped make the market what it is.
So yes, what players feel about f2p now is irrelevant. The time to care and act was when this dragon was barely hatched. It could have been defeated with trifling effort then compared to the virtually insurmountable challenge it would be today.
In summary, the angst of players on this is too little and too late to matter, and thus we must deal with what we have rather than what we want.
And I have to agree, the real question of this topic is not so much "Devs" can fill a vast array of positions within a company but if the person in charge, the one calling the shots , is out of touch with what gamers want or not.
Now some might call this nit picking, splitting hairs, or just making the discussion nuanced, but, it's really not. Ideally, as pointed out, there is someone in charge, the Executive Producer, or whatever, this person is the one that makes the judgment calls, the other people building the game as @blueturtle13 pointed out, don't have much say in the process, they are hired to do a job, be it, make something work, create art, whatever, they are not there to dump their feelings on the table if they think this is a good idea or not, that means, the person that matters, the only person that matters, is the person making the overall design decisions, regardless of this persons title.
With that set out.. the question would be. Overall, is THAT person out of touch or not.
For me, as I see it, largely, I would wager they are not gamers, as all too often the people at the top of the chain are very busty people, if they are doing their job right, they are busy people, and not often the people that have many extra hours in their week to devote to games.
Which leads me to the next question. If they are not gamers, and don't really get involved in games, who or what influences their decisions the most?
And this
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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