I think there is a lot of issues with large game companies, and the game industry in general. But the promising thing are the growth of small independent developers in recent years and the ease of game development. The issue with the game industry is that it has become too large much like the auto industry. There is a disconnect between the companies, reviewers, and customers. Using the auto industry as an example. The company wants to release a small boxy hatchback for too much money. The reviewer wants a sports car. The customer wants a large comfortable SUV. In the case of the Game Industry. The company wants to release an uncomplicated game targeting the most people for the largest profit. The reviewer wants social justice talking points. The customer wants an expansive game for the lowest cost.
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
And I have to agree, the real question of this topic is not so much "Devs" can fill a vast array of positions within a company but if the person in charge, the one calling the shots , is out of touch with what gamers want or not.
Now some might call this nit picking, splitting hairs, or just making the discussion nuanced, but, it's really not. Ideally, as pointed out, there is someone in charge, the Executive Producer, or whatever, this person is the one that makes the judgment calls, the other people building the game as @blueturtle13 pointed out, don't have much say in the process, they are hired to do a job, be it, make something work, create art, whatever, they are not there to dump their feelings on the table if they think this is a good idea or not, that means, the person that matters, the only person that matters, is the person making the overall design decisions, regardless of this persons title.
With that set out.. the question would be. Overall, is THAT person out of touch or not.
For me, as I see it, largely, I would wager they are not gamers, as all too often the people at the top of the chain are very busty people, if they are doing their job right, they are busy people, and not often the people that have many extra hours in their week to devote to games.
Which leads me to the next question. If they are not gamers, and don't really get involved in games, who or what influences their decisions the most?
We have seen over the history of gaming the replacement of the heads of gaming studios who had a gaming background of some sort with people big in the business world. Currently only one director of EA has a gaming background, that is indicative of what happened when gaming changed from a big player in the entertainment world to the the biggest. Only indie is led by gamers now and as the "indie" company becomes more larger it to will have more and more staff who have no gaming background.
This is a perennial issue we have in gaming, studios need business know how as they get larger but that know how turns them away from making the best game possible for players. It makes them start to focus on games as a money making exercise, a catch 22 really.
As to your question in the last post, well if you have a programming/graphics background, gaming may well seem cool. I remember once going out with a mate and he wanted us to make out we were game designers to pick up a couple of girls as our jobs were "stuffy". I kid you not.
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
My guess is there's plenty of executives, producers and even directors in movie studios that never acted a day in their lives, heck some probably don't even watch movies much anymore.
Professional sports, same deal, lots of owners, coaches and managers that haven't really played professional sports, or any sports since back in their sandlot days.
Look at the Glazer family, they own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Manchester United and I'm pretty sure they have little experience playing either sport, Malcolm Senior originally made most of his money owning restaurant chains where I'm sure he never spent much time back in the kitchen.
Automobile executives, designers, engineers, all probably drive cars, few are or were professional race car drivers.
Better yet, how about aerospace, plenty of people working at senior levels in that industry with no actual astronaut or pilot training, heck not even Elon yet he's running SpaceX.
People make money all the time in businesses they don't necessarily have a lot of experience in or even a passion for, so not seeing why the same can't be true in gaming.
As I said not so jokingly, it really is all about making money.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
Which goes back to: money.
But others said that above as well, so I'd rather just address the middle part, since it relates to an earlier delete thread about management.
It's an industry now, and crash&burn is pretty rare on that level of "dump millions of dollars", so it's a fairly stable and risk-free investment, at least for the top players.
Sure, on the entry level it still has the success rate of a lottery, the solo dev, or 2-3 persons indie teams spending years and all their savings of $50-70 thousand onto the game will most likely lose it.
The middle range, regular sized teams with the budget in the hundred thousands region are closer to a coin toss (50%), depending on their publishing and management.
But what you referred to, huge teams, years of development and budget of millions, they're on a pretty high rate of return.
Even the commonly considered big flops like Anthem, Marvel's Avengers or Fallout '76 weren't "crash and burn" as you said, financially.
A big share in it has the recent "safety net" of live service (which is loathsome, for other reasons mostly, this extra safety is just a byproduct of it).
Two decades ago an Avengers-kinda failed launch could cripple even a big studio. High cost, lower initial sales, etc.
But in the current environment, Squeenix had a dent in that financial quarter, which was harsh but they know all too well, in time they will get the cash back... Just like Anthem did over the year, and so now it's fine for EAware to let it go.
(mind you, it still doesn't mean closing the shop, oh nope. Just stop the development. "We will, however, continue to keep the Anthem live service running as it exists today." yay, live service )
Which leads to an another answer besides money, but it could take up an entire thread of its own, so just put it here as a remark:
Whether players like f2p is irrelevant so long as they continue to support it well enough for it to remain the MMORPG marketing model standard.
Ever think the "new marketing standard" is the downfall of mmorpgs ?
Ever ask how happy players are with the currant model, or are we simply putting up with it with no other choice.
Irrelevant my butt
Define "downfall" please. There are F2P and P2P MMORPGS making money hand over fist these days so I need to better understand what your performance measures are.
Regardless, while payment models can arguably impact MMORPGs I think most would agree their current state is the result of multiple influences in combination and can't be attributed to any single factor.
Well, don't take this a personal, But I learned on this message board "never respond" to anyone asking you to define anything.
I learned this, not for me alone, but is reading post for years 'from others". It's a set up because NOTHING IS DEFINED HERE. We can never prove anything, hate to say it, but it's all talk....everything.
Please don't take this as an insult, just my personal opinion. You can even call it a quirk, but none the less it's my quirk.
It's a pertinent question. You said "Decline of MMO's." How can you say that when more players are playing more MMOs now than ever before? How does this indicate "decline" to you?
Now, if you're addressing "quality", that is a personal opinion, not a fact
I guess I would ask if all these players are masochists, or actually enjoying their games?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
My guess is there's plenty of executives, producers and even directors in movie studios that never acted a day in their lives, heck some probably don't even watch movies much anymore.
Professional sports, same deal, lots of owners, coaches and managers that haven't really played professional sports, or any sports since back in their sandlot days.
Look at the Glazer family, they own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Manchester United and I'm pretty sure they have little experience playing either sport, Malcolm Senior originally made most of his money owning restaurant chains where I'm sure he never spent much time back in the kitchen.
Automobile executives, designers, engineers, all probably drive cars, few are or were professional race car drivers.
Better yet, how about aerospace, plenty of people working at senior levels in that industry with no actual astronaut or pilot training, heck not even Elon yet he's running SpaceX.
People make money all the time in businesses they don't necessarily have a lot of experience in or even a passion for, so not seeing why the same can't be true in gaming.
As I said not so jokingly, it really is all about making money.
One of the podcasts I watch on Twitch/YouTube (Dropped Frames) had an interview with Brian Fargo (InExile) after Microsoft bought them out. Brian admitted that he was relieved to have to NOT handle the business aspect anymore and go back focusing on making fun games.
I bet that sentiment is echoed by many former small developer studio heads that weren't prepared for the business side of game making
Some handle developing AND business well. Others struggle.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
In all the years here, I came to the overall conclusion, their are only several variations, that players like, and for the past 10 years, developers have touched on none of them....none !
Do they EVER ask groups of people or communities what they think ?
I for one can spot a "flop" way before release.... I'm sure you can too !
With all the alpha and bata testing, do they take ANY feed back ?
Best Example: Wildstar....... it was so bad, and I'm so mad, I'll not even spend the time to Google who made this steamy pile of crap. But what I do know it had to be a bunch of hyped up Monster drink drinking teenagers that were un supervised by adults, but somehow knew how to program and market a game.
NOW YOU MAY THINK THIS IS FUNNY..... It's not ! ALL mmorpgs of the last 10 years are not supervised, just released.
Don't even get me started on F2P, I'll have a heart attack, I already have a tumor because of this
WildStar was out for more than four years, and I'm surprised it lasted that long as NCSoft has a bit of an itchy trigger finger when it comes to games not meeting their revenue expectations.
I suppose those developers were out of touch as they apparently expected players to go through a lengthy attunement process to raid, and then to gather together in large numbers to tackle the content.
Who was going to do all that? Apparently not enough, at least to NCSoft's taste.
I remember a lot of people at the time saying the cartoony graphics and kiddy humor were a big turnoff. So they took an already niche market and divided it up even more.
In my experience, designers have been the biggest gamers in general and they damn well better be. Coders aren't far behind and many artists I knew did it for the pay as getting art jobs doing exactly what you want can be hard.
I don't really have a generalization on producers but they seemed to be as into playing games as designers.
The most frustrating thing I see from designers is their egos getting in the way and wanting to do something different. Even if that means abandoning core strengths or attractions of the genre they are in.
Hell, even blizzard falls victim to this almost every other expansion. Most players were pretty happy with the state of classes in MoP and every expansion afterwards has been worse in that regard.
Another popular aspect of WOW was honor/valor tokens and such where you can counter bad RNG buy buying some pieces that never drop. They made it so bad at one point that even if you got the drop you wanted there was Titanforging which meant it might not be as strong s it could be. Those changes were likely made to try and make sure people stayed subbed and did the content longer though.
In all the years here, I came to the overall conclusion, their are only several variations, that players like, and for the past 10 years, developers have touched on none of them....none !
Do they EVER ask groups of people or communities what they think ?
I for one can spot a "flop" way before release.... I'm sure you can too !
With all the alpha and bata testing, do they take ANY feed back ?
Best Example: Wildstar....... it was so bad, and I'm so mad, I'll not even spend the time to Google who made this steamy pile of crap. But what I do know it had to be a bunch of hyped up Monster drink drinking teenagers that were un supervised by adults, but somehow knew how to program and market a game.
NOW YOU MAY THINK THIS IS FUNNY..... It's not ! ALL mmorpgs of the last 10 years are not supervised, just released.
Don't even get me started on F2P, I'll have a heart attack, I already have a tumor because of this
WildStar was out for more than four years, and I'm surprised it lasted that long as NCSoft has a bit of an itchy trigger finger when it comes to games not meeting their revenue expectations.
I suppose those developers were out of touch as they apparently expected players to go through a lengthy attunement process to raid, and then to gather together in large numbers to tackle the content.
Who was going to do all that? Apparently not enough, at least to NCSoft's taste.
I remember a lot of people at the time saying the cartoony graphics and kiddy humor were a big turnoff. So they took an already niche market and divided it up even more.
Ya, they seem like kids on monster drinks and skullcaps making it
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
My guess is there's plenty of executives, producers and even directors in movie studios that never acted a day in their lives, heck some probably don't even watch movies much anymore.
Professional sports, same deal, lots of owners, coaches and managers that haven't really played professional sports, or any sports since back in their sandlot days.
Look at the Glazer family, they own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Manchester United and I'm pretty sure they have little experience playing either sport, Malcolm Senior originally made most of his money owning restaurant chains where I'm sure he never spent much time back in the kitchen.
Automobile executives, designers, engineers, all probably drive cars, few are or were professional race car drivers.
Better yet, how about aerospace, plenty of people working at senior levels in that industry with no actual astronaut or pilot training, heck not even Elon yet he's running SpaceX.
People make money all the time in businesses they don't necessarily have a lot of experience in or even a passion for, so not seeing why the same can't be true in gaming.
As I said not so jokingly, it really is all about making money.
I want to address this.
To use Movies: A Major Company like MGM, for example, or lets go with Disney. The people at the top, the Executive Director, and person handling the whole project, may or may not be involved in the making of the movie itself, even if they have control over the project, they don't often "run the show", while they do often control the budget, hiring, and things like that, the making of the movie, is often done by hiring a skilled professional to handle that, who knows what they are doing IE: The Director.
And each task and region has their specialist, like they hire a screenwriter, costumes, special effects, actors, stage builders, etc, etc. And each one of these departments, work together to make a great movie.
But at the end of the day, it's the director, who works with the various teams and individuals, and holds the eye of the camera. It is this person who puts all the parts together, and while they are not the person at top of the food chain, they are hired for their expertise in the field of making a great movie.
Just like sports: I can own a Sports team and at the same time hate sports, but, I hire skilled Coaches, and get the best players, or hire skilled recruiters to work with the coach to build the best teams, and they go out and play the game, without my needing to put my hand on anything short the checks.
A lot of fields are like this.. where the people at the top often know that they are not the people who are best suited to handle the project, and instead hire skilled professionals to make the project happen.
Case in point, a Team Owner who does not play or get involved in the sport directly, does not hire a skilled professional Coach just to ignore what they have to say, and try to Coach the team themselves, normally that is a iconic recipe for disaster, and this applies to any field or expertise, be it movies, building cars, spaceships, buildings,.. all of it.
Now, there is a difference between being an investor. Which is someone that put money into a company with an expected ROI on their investment.
And the person being in charge of the project.
So lets not confuse the two. At the end of the day, someone is in charge of the project, someone is making the calls as to what this game will and will not become.
Just like in a Sports team, the Coach is the one in charge of the Team, they are not the head person, they do not run the show, they do not own the team, but when it comes to what that team does out on the field, they are the final word.
So again, the question is.. the Person in charge.
The Director the Movie. The Head Coach of the Team. The Head Engineer at the Automotive Plant. The CG on the Construction Site. The Manager of the Store.
Almost without fail, in every industry ever to exist, at some point, there is someone that calls the shots on what is going on, what is going to happen, and they are given the autonomy to handle things their way.
That MFer, is the person we are talking about.
As such, If this MFer, is not into games, why are they attempting to design one?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In all the years here, I came to the overall conclusion, their are only several variations, that players like, and for the past 10 years, developers have touched on none of them....none !
Do they EVER ask groups of people or communities what they think ?
I for one can spot a "flop" way before release.... I'm sure you can too !
With all the alpha and bata testing, do they take ANY feed back ?
Best Example: Wildstar....... it was so bad, and I'm so mad, I'll not even spend the time to Google who made this steamy pile of crap. But what I do know it had to be a bunch of hyped up Monster drink drinking teenagers that were un supervised by adults, but somehow knew how to program and market a game.
NOW YOU MAY THINK THIS IS FUNNY..... It's not ! ALL mmorpgs of the last 10 years are not supervised, just released.
Don't even get me started on F2P, I'll have a heart attack, I already have a tumor because of this
WildStar was out for more than four years, and I'm surprised it lasted that long as NCSoft has a bit of an itchy trigger finger when it comes to games not meeting their revenue expectations.
I suppose those developers were out of touch as they apparently expected players to go through a lengthy attunement process to raid, and then to gather together in large numbers to tackle the content.
Who was going to do all that? Apparently not enough, at least to NCSoft's taste.
I remember a lot of people at the time saying the cartoony graphics and kiddy humor were a big turnoff. So they took an already niche market and divided it up even more.
That was the thing that I liked the most! I've always preferred stylized whimsical graphics, worlds and characters in my games. In the MMO space, there's not nearly enough - particularly in the west. That's why people are still drooling over Blue Protocol despite the fact that a lot of people who have played it say it's not good.
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
My guess is there's plenty of executives, producers and even directors in movie studios that never acted a day in their lives, heck some probably don't even watch movies much anymore.
Professional sports, same deal, lots of owners, coaches and managers that haven't really played professional sports, or any sports since back in their sandlot days.
Look at the Glazer family, they own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Manchester United and I'm pretty sure they have little experience playing either sport, Malcolm Senior originally made most of his money owning restaurant chains where I'm sure he never spent much time back in the kitchen.
Automobile executives, designers, engineers, all probably drive cars, few are or were professional race car drivers.
Better yet, how about aerospace, plenty of people working at senior levels in that industry with no actual astronaut or pilot training, heck not even Elon yet he's running SpaceX.
People make money all the time in businesses they don't necessarily have a lot of experience in or even a passion for, so not seeing why the same can't be true in gaming.
As I said not so jokingly, it really is all about making money.
I want to address this.
To use Movies: A Major Company like MGM, for example, or lets go with Disney. The people at the top, the Executive Director, and person handling the whole project, may or may not be involved in the making of the movie itself, even if they have control over the project, they don't often "run the show", while they do often control the budget, hiring, and things like that, the making of the movie, is often done by hiring a skilled professional to handle that, who knows what they are doing IE: The Director.
And each task and region has their specialist, like they hire a screenwriter, costumes, special effects, actors, stage builders, etc, etc. And each one of these departments, work together to make a great movie.
But at the end of the day, it's the director, who works with the various teams and individuals, and holds the eye of the camera. It is this person who puts all the parts together, and while they are not the person at top of the food chain, they are hired for their expertise in the field of making a great movie.
Just like sports: I can own a Sports team and at the same time hate sports, but, I hire skilled Coaches, and get the best players, or hire skilled recruiters to work with the coach to build the best teams, and they go out and play the game, without my needing to put my hand on anything short the checks.
A lot of fields are like this.. where the people at the top often know that they are not the people who are best suited to handle the project, and instead hire skilled professionals to make the project happen.
Case in point, a Team Owner who does not play or get involved in the sport directly, does not hire a skilled professional Coach just to ignore what they have to say, and try to Coach the team themselves, normally that is a iconic recipe for disaster, and this applies to any field or expertise, be it movies, building cars, spaceships, buildings,.. all of it.
Now, there is a difference between being an investor. Which is someone that put money into a company with an expected ROI on their investment.
And the person being in charge of the project.
So lets not confuse the two. At the end of the day, someone is in charge of the project, someone is making the calls as to what this game will and will not become.
Just like in a Sports team, the Coach is the one in charge of the Team, they are not the head person, they do not run the show, they do not own the team, but when it comes to what that team does out on the field, they are the final word.
So again, the question is.. the Person in charge.
The Director the Movie. The Head Coach of the Team. The Head Engineer at the Automotive Plant. The CG on the Construction Site. The Manager of the Store.
Almost without fail, in every industry ever to exist, at some point, there is someone that calls the shots on what is going on, what is going to happen, and they are given the autonomy to handle things their way.
That MFer, is the person we are talking about.
As such, If this MFer, is not into games, why are they attempting to design one?
Is there any evidence of game designers not being into games, a specific example I mean?
Regardless of how into games they might be, they still have to follow the constraints senior management places.
For example, after the Bucs won the Superbowl their coach said which he controlled what happened on the field, it was the General Manager who deserved the credit for recruiting the players (and paying big for Brady) to make it possible.
My guess is often designers have good, but perhaps unproven ideas which they'd love to try but the folks controlling the purse strings refuse to fund them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
My guess is there's plenty of executives, producers and even directors in movie studios that never acted a day in their lives, heck some probably don't even watch movies much anymore.
Professional sports, same deal, lots of owners, coaches and managers that haven't really played professional sports, or any sports since back in their sandlot days.
Look at the Glazer family, they own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Manchester United and I'm pretty sure they have little experience playing either sport, Malcolm Senior originally made most of his money owning restaurant chains where I'm sure he never spent much time back in the kitchen.
Automobile executives, designers, engineers, all probably drive cars, few are or were professional race car drivers.
Better yet, how about aerospace, plenty of people working at senior levels in that industry with no actual astronaut or pilot training, heck not even Elon yet he's running SpaceX.
People make money all the time in businesses they don't necessarily have a lot of experience in or even a passion for, so not seeing why the same can't be true in gaming.
As I said not so jokingly, it really is all about making money.
I want to address this.
To use Movies: A Major Company like MGM, for example, or lets go with Disney. The people at the top, the Executive Director, and person handling the whole project, may or may not be involved in the making of the movie itself, even if they have control over the project, they don't often "run the show", while they do often control the budget, hiring, and things like that, the making of the movie, is often done by hiring a skilled professional to handle that, who knows what they are doing IE: The Director.
And each task and region has their specialist, like they hire a screenwriter, costumes, special effects, actors, stage builders, etc, etc. And each one of these departments, work together to make a great movie.
But at the end of the day, it's the director, who works with the various teams and individuals, and holds the eye of the camera. It is this person who puts all the parts together, and while they are not the person at top of the food chain, they are hired for their expertise in the field of making a great movie.
Just like sports: I can own a Sports team and at the same time hate sports, but, I hire skilled Coaches, and get the best players, or hire skilled recruiters to work with the coach to build the best teams, and they go out and play the game, without my needing to put my hand on anything short the checks.
A lot of fields are like this.. where the people at the top often know that they are not the people who are best suited to handle the project, and instead hire skilled professionals to make the project happen.
Case in point, a Team Owner who does not play or get involved in the sport directly, does not hire a skilled professional Coach just to ignore what they have to say, and try to Coach the team themselves, normally that is a iconic recipe for disaster, and this applies to any field or expertise, be it movies, building cars, spaceships, buildings,.. all of it.
Now, there is a difference between being an investor. Which is someone that put money into a company with an expected ROI on their investment.
And the person being in charge of the project.
So lets not confuse the two. At the end of the day, someone is in charge of the project, someone is making the calls as to what this game will and will not become.
Just like in a Sports team, the Coach is the one in charge of the Team, they are not the head person, they do not run the show, they do not own the team, but when it comes to what that team does out on the field, they are the final word.
So again, the question is.. the Person in charge.
The Director the Movie. The Head Coach of the Team. The Head Engineer at the Automotive Plant. The CG on the Construction Site. The Manager of the Store.
Almost without fail, in every industry ever to exist, at some point, there is someone that calls the shots on what is going on, what is going to happen, and they are given the autonomy to handle things their way.
That MFer, is the person we are talking about.
As such, If this MFer, is not into games, why are they attempting to design one?
Is there any evidence of game designers not being into games, a specific example I mean?
Regardless of how into games they might be, they still have to follow the constraints senior management places.
For example, after the Bucs won the Superbowl their coach said which he controlled what happened on the field, it was the General Manager who deserved the credit for recruiting the players (and paying big for Brady) to make it possible.
My guess is often designers have good, but perhaps unproven ideas which they'd love to try but the folks controlling the purse strings refuse to fund them.
That is a sign of a smart Coach, lets get something clear, The General manager signed the checks, so the coach, not being a brain dead moron, gave them the credit, chances are, the GM, simply sent recruiters to the people that Coach suggested, and made the call to pay Brady what they asked, again at the behest of the Coach, after all, it was the Coach that was going to have to work with them, be down there on the field, not the GM, so they are the ones that will suggest who they want to play with on their team.
Ok.. let me translate that.
Bucks Won the Superbowl. Coach + Team Won the Game. Coach says, "GM deserves the Credit" What Coach really means is "The GM deserves the credit for listening to me, and doing what I asked to make this happen"
Lets go to back games again.
When it comes to making something, anything, from Dildos to Rocket ships, from Video Games to Professional sports teams, all these ventures have someone Who is the proverbial Coach.
This person is there is make things happen, and get things done, and not only get them done, but get them done right.
Sometimes this is the owner, when it's a small company, sometimes this is someone who needs to deal with a lot of people over them. But in any case, there is going to be the Coach out there, making this happen, calling the plays, and getting things done.
Now, if the GM/Owner does not want to listen to the Coach they hired to win, why the hell even hire them, and in those cases, no matter what the product, be is a sports team, car, building, space ship, video game, whatever, that shit is gonna be a train wreck.
As it stands however, as Delete is trying to say.
Are the MMO Coaches out of Touch?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
It's a joke because we all do our jobs for money.
If i was given a billion dollars, id still do my job, but instead of a 1.4x a job, i'd do 0.5 jobs. Then id make movies based on video games.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
It's a joke because we all do our jobs for money.
If i was given a billion dollars, id still do my job, but instead of a 1.4x a job, i'd do 0.5 jobs. Then id make movies based on video games.
Not me, I'd buy a small island, build me a lair, hire a bunch o' henchmen, and begin working on my plan for total world annihilation...err, domination I meant.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
Large companies dump millions of dollars into projects every year, many of which never see the light of day. The money lost on those that fail are more than made up by those that succeed. Having to spend money to make money isn't an empty saying.
Who are designers to administrate companies, craft marketing plans, best allocate profits to maximize their benefits, to keep projects on schedule, and the numerous other tasks not specific to design that go into running a business.
In small indie companies maybe a few developers can get by wearing all these hats. In larger ones things it would be difficult to get anything done without everyone taking care of what they have expertise in.
Bucks Won the Superbowl. Coach + Team Won the Game. Coach says, "GM deserves the Credit" What Coach really means is "The GM deserves the credit for listening to me, and doing what I asked to make this happen"
Arranging what the coach wanted may have been slightly more difficult than picking him up a candy bar while walking past the vending machine. It is quite possible the effort made was worth the praise given. Team effort isn't confined to the field alone.
Bucks Won the Superbowl. Coach + Team Won the Game. Coach says, "GM deserves the Credit" What Coach really means is "The GM deserves the credit for listening to me, and doing what I asked to make this happen"
Arranging what the coach wanted may have been slightly more difficult than picking him up a candy bar while walking past the vending machine. It is quite possible the effort made was worth the praise given. Team effort isn't confined to the field alone.
It is worth the praise given, that is why the Coach gave it.
But, at the end of the day... Winning.. Is on the Field Alone.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Whether players like f2p is irrelevant so long as they continue to support it well enough for it to remain the MMORPG marketing model standard.
Ever think the "new marketing standard" is the downfall of mmorpgs ?
Ever ask how happy players are with the currant model, or are we simply putting up with it with no other choice.
Irrelevant my butt
15-20 years ago we had no other choice... today we have many choices and I enjoy the freedom of choice.
I suspect it's more an illusion of freedom of choice, the reality is taken as a group gamers are paying more than back then.
Sure, you personally might not be, but my guess is you aren't able to obtain the same level of value for the amount you (don't) spend.
At one time we used the have the option to obtain almost all game content for fixed prices, now a days that ship has long since sailed. . Playing ESO now makes me miss those days a bit more.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Whether players like f2p is irrelevant so long as they continue to support it well enough for it to remain the MMORPG marketing model standard.
Ever think the "new marketing standard" is the downfall of mmorpgs ?
Ever ask how happy players are with the currant model, or are we simply putting up with it with no other choice.
Irrelevant my butt
15-20 years ago we had no other choice... today we have many choices and I enjoy the freedom of choice.
Yes we do, mmorpg's for 5 year old's, 6year old's, and 7.
Classics all come with amazing cash shops and money grabs.
Modern games now come with linear story lines, along with no need to play with others, no need to group, their much more enhanced with solo play.
What a great time to be alive.... hit that one key and Boom, everything is insta dead. We didn't have that feature when I was a kid. We had to kill it ourselves.
Now log in, get a cup of coffee, come back and collect all your loot
Whether players like f2p is irrelevant so long as they continue to support it well enough for it to remain the MMORPG marketing model standard.
Ever think the "new marketing standard" is the downfall of mmorpgs ?
Ever ask how happy players are with the currant model, or are we simply putting up with it with no other choice.
Irrelevant my butt
15-20 years ago we had no other choice... today we have many choices and I enjoy the freedom of choice.
Yes we do, mmorpg's for 5 year old's, 6year old's, and 7.
Classics all come with amazing cash shops and money grabs.
Modern games now come with linear story lines, along with no need to play with others, no need to group, their much more enhanced with solo play.
What a great time to be alive.... hit that one key and Boom, everything is insta dead. We didn't have that feature when I was a kid. We had to kill it ourselves.
Now log in, get a cup of coffee, come back and collect all your loot
Hasn't it been established that your only real experience with an mmorpg is World of Warcraft?
Which, even at launch, was one of the most streamlined experiences out there.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
The issue with the game industry is that it has become too large much like the auto industry. There is a disconnect between the companies, reviewers, and customers. Using the auto industry as an example. The company wants to release a small boxy hatchback for too much money. The reviewer wants a sports car. The customer wants a large comfortable SUV.
In the case of the Game Industry. The company wants to release an uncomplicated game targeting the most people for the largest profit. The reviewer wants social justice talking points. The customer wants an expansive game for the lowest cost.
For profit companies are for profit. There isn't much room for deduction here.
As pointed out, there are other, better, far more stable ways to make money, then to dump millions of dollars and years of your life into making a game that might be vaporware or crash and burn on launch.
Which goes back to: If you are not a gamer, and thus not into Games, why are you trying to design one?
This is a perennial issue we have in gaming, studios need business know how as they get larger but that know how turns them away from making the best game possible for players. It makes them start to focus on games as a money making exercise, a catch 22 really.
As to your question in the last post, well if you have a programming/graphics background, gaming may well seem cool. I remember once going out with a mate and he wanted us to make out we were game designers to pick up a couple of girls as our jobs were "stuffy". I kid you not.
Professional sports, same deal, lots of owners, coaches and managers that haven't really played professional sports, or any sports since back in their sandlot days.
Look at the Glazer family, they own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Manchester United and I'm pretty sure they have little experience playing either sport, Malcolm Senior originally made most of his money owning restaurant chains where I'm sure he never spent much time back in the kitchen.
Automobile executives, designers, engineers, all probably drive cars, few are or were professional race car drivers.
Better yet, how about aerospace, plenty of people working at senior levels in that industry with no actual astronaut or pilot training, heck not even Elon yet he's running SpaceX.
People make money all the time in businesses they don't necessarily have a lot of experience in or even a passion for, so not seeing why the same can't be true in gaming.
As I said not so jokingly, it really is all about making money.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Now, if you're addressing "quality", that is a personal opinion, not a fact
I guess I would ask if all these players are masochists, or actually enjoying their games?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I bet that sentiment is echoed by many former small developer studio heads that weren't prepared for the business side of game making
Some handle developing AND business well. Others struggle.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't really have a generalization on producers but they seemed to be as into playing games as designers.
The most frustrating thing I see from designers is their egos getting in the way and wanting to do something different. Even if that means abandoning core strengths or attractions of the genre they are in.
Hell, even blizzard falls victim to this almost every other expansion. Most players were pretty happy with the state of classes in MoP and every expansion afterwards has been worse in that regard.
Another popular aspect of WOW was honor/valor tokens and such where you can counter bad RNG buy buying some pieces that never drop. They made it so bad at one point that even if you got the drop you wanted there was Titanforging which meant it might not be as strong s it could be. Those changes were likely made to try and make sure people stayed subbed and did the content longer though.
To use Movies: A Major Company like MGM, for example, or lets go with Disney. The people at the top, the Executive Director, and person handling the whole project, may or may not be involved in the making of the movie itself, even if they have control over the project, they don't often "run the show", while they do often control the budget, hiring, and things like that, the making of the movie, is often done by hiring a skilled professional to handle that, who knows what they are doing IE: The Director.
And each task and region has their specialist, like they hire a screenwriter, costumes, special effects, actors, stage builders, etc, etc. And each one of these departments, work together to make a great movie.
But at the end of the day, it's the director, who works with the various teams and individuals, and holds the eye of the camera. It is this person who puts all the parts together, and while they are not the person at top of the food chain, they are hired for their expertise in the field of making a great movie.
Just like sports: I can own a Sports team and at the same time hate sports, but, I hire skilled Coaches, and get the best players, or hire skilled recruiters to work with the coach to build the best teams, and they go out and play the game, without my needing to put my hand on anything short the checks.
A lot of fields are like this.. where the people at the top often know that they are not the people who are best suited to handle the project, and instead hire skilled professionals to make the project happen.
Case in point, a Team Owner who does not play or get involved in the sport directly, does not hire a skilled professional Coach just to ignore what they have to say, and try to Coach the team themselves, normally that is a iconic recipe for disaster, and this applies to any field or expertise, be it movies, building cars, spaceships, buildings,.. all of it.
Now, there is a difference between being an investor. Which is someone that put money into a company with an expected ROI on their investment.
And the person being in charge of the project.
So lets not confuse the two. At the end of the day, someone is in charge of the project, someone is making the calls as to what this game will and will not become.
Just like in a Sports team, the Coach is the one in charge of the Team, they are not the head person, they do not run the show, they do not own the team, but when it comes to what that team does out on the field, they are the final word.
So again, the question is.. the Person in charge.
The Director the Movie.
The Head Coach of the Team.
The Head Engineer at the Automotive Plant.
The CG on the Construction Site.
The Manager of the Store.
Almost without fail, in every industry ever to exist, at some point, there is someone that calls the shots on what is going on, what is going to happen, and they are given the autonomy to handle things their way.
That MFer, is the person we are talking about.
As such, If this MFer, is not into games, why are they attempting to design one?
Regardless of how into games they might be, they still have to follow the constraints senior management places.
For example, after the Bucs won the Superbowl their coach said which he controlled what happened on the field, it was the General Manager who deserved the credit for recruiting the players (and paying big for Brady) to make it possible.
My guess is often designers have good, but perhaps unproven ideas which they'd love to try but the folks controlling the purse strings refuse to fund them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ok.. let me translate that.
Bucks Won the Superbowl.
Coach + Team Won the Game.
Coach says, "GM deserves the Credit"
What Coach really means is "The GM deserves the credit for listening to me, and doing what I asked to make this happen"
Lets go to back games again.
When it comes to making something, anything, from Dildos to Rocket ships, from Video Games to Professional sports teams, all these ventures have someone Who is the proverbial Coach.
This person is there is make things happen, and get things done, and not only get them done, but get them done right.
Sometimes this is the owner, when it's a small company, sometimes this is someone who needs to deal with a lot of people over them. But in any case, there is going to be the Coach out there, making this happen, calling the plays, and getting things done.
Now, if the GM/Owner does not want to listen to the Coach they hired to win, why the hell even hire them, and in those cases, no matter what the product, be is a sports team, car, building, space ship, video game, whatever, that shit is gonna be a train wreck.
As it stands however, as Delete is trying to say.
Are the MMO Coaches out of Touch?
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Large companies dump millions of dollars into projects every year, many of which never see the light of day. The money lost on those that fail are more than made up by those that succeed. Having to spend money to make money isn't an empty saying.
Who are designers to administrate companies, craft marketing plans, best allocate profits to maximize their benefits, to keep projects on schedule, and the numerous other tasks not specific to design that go into running a business.
In small indie companies maybe a few developers can get by wearing all these hats. In larger ones things it would be difficult to get anything done without everyone taking care of what they have expertise in.
Arranging what the coach wanted may have been slightly more difficult than picking him up a candy bar while walking past the vending machine. It is quite possible the effort made was worth the praise given. Team effort isn't confined to the field alone.
Not that I know of. Higher levels in the company, quite possibly. But those people aren't there for their game design skills.
But, at the end of the day... Winning.. Is on the Field Alone.
15-20 years ago we had no other choice... today we have many choices and I enjoy the freedom of choice.
Sure, you personally might not be, but my guess is you aren't able to obtain the same level of value for the amount you (don't) spend.
At one time we used the have the option to obtain almost all game content for fixed prices, now a days that ship has long since sailed.
.
Playing ESO now makes me miss those days a bit more.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
mmorpg's for 5 year old's, 6year old's, and 7.
Classics all come with amazing cash shops and money grabs.
Modern games now come with linear story lines, along with no need to play with others, no need to group, their much more enhanced with solo play.
What a great time to be alive.... hit that one key and Boom, everything is insta dead. We didn't have that feature when I was a kid. We had to kill it ourselves.
Now log in, get a cup of coffee, come back and collect all your loot
Which, even at launch, was one of the most streamlined experiences out there.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo