Oh come on! Give me a break already. Old school MMOs weren't some masterful works of art filled with amazing worlds and storylines that were better than any other form of entertainment at the time. The worlds were immersive because it was the first time that we were able to play RPGs with other people online. I was just as immersed in Might and Magic and The Bard's Tale long before I played an MMO. And the first MUD I ever played had minimal story elements but I was still back online night after night to play.
Old MMOs didn't require some sort of genius intelligence to conquer either. The lack of a minimap or quest pointers doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it slower. Wandering the area north of town until you find the gnarled tree and then traveling west to the cave entrance isn't hard. It just takes time and patience. But as soon as you've done it once, it's pretty easy the next time. A minimap and other QoL improvements just make this process quicker.
And hand holding was still there, it just wasn't doled out by the game itself. Hand holding was done by the guilds. Back in the day, the guilds held the knowledge. They held it tight and members weren't allowed to politely give it away to strangers. But once you were accepted into a good guild, a whole new world quickly opened up. You now had all the secrets at your fingertips, others to help power level you past the boring stuff, good leveling gear was handed to you (you didn't even have to buy it from a cash shop), and raid mechanics were explained in full by experienced players.
While we're at it, let's get off our high horses about group play and how solo play has ruined MMOs. Leveling in a group with 5 other players is not much different than grinding mobs by yourself. There was community, for sure, and that community is very important, but don't think that grinding solo changes that. I spent as much time typing in guild chat as I did talking to the players I was currently grouped up with. I can do the same as I solo.
Simply put, old school MMOs aren't better than the new stuff. We blame difficulty, cash shops, and bean counters for all of the woes of modern MMOs, but the real problem is the number of online options available. And while innovation in MMOs has been stagnant for nearly two decades, other forms of online games continue to evolve and adapt, all the while stealing more and more of the online player base.
Bullcrap!
Old school MMO's were much more in depth than today's MMO's. In fact I've never come across another MMO today, including WoW after 18 years of content that has the depth and complexity of something like Asheron's Call. The spell cast system was the most complex and deepest of any MMO to date and in the beginning there was very little help available for you learn the system, it was trial and error which instilled a sense of accomplishment once you learned a particularly difficult spell.
There overall size of the world and the shear volume of dungeons available which were, for the most part far more intricate and complex requiring players having to coordinate in order to navigate than most dungeons in games today. The crafting system was in depth and critical to success long term and it was accompanied by a fantastic loot system. There were real consequences to dying which could be mitigated by carrying death items but it took the ingenuity of the player base to figure that out.
The world events which consisted of developers running around using NPC bosses to squash towns and rally the player base has never been duplicated. This added a real sense of the unknown and was completely unpredictable when compared to the scheduled events in today's MMO's.
The patron/follower/monarch/guild system meant something and offered massive benefits and a tight social network that included players that specialized in buffing, players that specialized in crafting, portal systems, guild mansions, guild storage, leveling.
Today's MMO's are trivial when compared to behemoths like Asheron's Call which had far more depth and provided a great balance between solo play and group play. It encouraged both play types, grinding solo was a way to advance your character, maybe find a stellar piece of loot and something to do in between the massive group events. People cooperated, social interaction was welcomed but it didn't punish you should you choose not to interact with others. I haven't even scratched the surface really but suffice it to say today's MMO's are a shadow of those like Asheron's Call and those like it that first hit the market.
Don't even get me started on the trinity. This system was developed to make the game even easier, you have one dedicated role period. In game's like AC you needed to be good at every facet of the game, when to fight, when to heal, when to support other's when to jump in as the tank. Trinity simplified, devolved the entire group fighting system, gave you one job to do with a ton of mods to tell you how to do it.
You don't have to learn squat in today's MMO's it is all on you tube or in mod's, at least in the older MMO's you needed to be social to try and figure some of these complex systems out. Virtually every new piece of content out provided you with an opportunity to become a world's first to figure out or conquer, it wasn't spelled out for you. Those games provided you with a greater sense of accomplishment than anything today, because you actually had to learn it or master it.
To this day nothing has ever come close and yes this was a different time where quality of the product completely outweighed the monetary focus in today's MMO's every one of today's MMO's.
A few details coming from someone who loved Asheron's Call...
The world felt big because of the slow running (even with high run speed skill), and most of it was empty and useless.
Crafting was quite terrible with a lot of micro management.
The lack of storage required you to use alts as mules, dropping items on the floor and praying nobody passed by before you were able to log your other character to grab them.
The was no way to sell your wares beyond spamming chat when online and using bots.
The guild system (monarch/follower), while original, was prone to abuse and exploiting.
The game was crawling with bots. Not just vendor bots, but buff bots, and the worse, combat bots which exploited mobs through walls to level 24/24 without risk. They also ruined dungeons from regular players by making them trivial. If you think bots are the worse in today's games, then you've never played Asheron's Call, the cheater paradise.
AC1 was a quite amazing game back then, but painting it as a perfect paradise is just remembering it through quite thick rose colored glasses.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The problem with a lot of complexity that @VladMorbius describes has been blunted with all the walkthroughs be it in video or written on every aspect of every game that has any puzzle or hidden ingredient, or dungeon strategy or even a simple recipe. This has largely led to an idea that the games currently being played are terribly shallow.
They may indeed be shallow but many games that initially had difficult puzzles like 'The Secret World' were all given away online. Every game you play now has some guide spring up even before the game is released. We have data miners that can mine every damn thing about a game stripping away any notion of discovery.
Indeed spell casting on Asheron Call was a very complex system but that system would be trivialized today.
I say this with certainty that what we had when we played those old games simply will not exist today. It was the confluence of circumstances that kept the experiences we had when we played those early games that is impossible to be duplicated in any way. It is just what it is.
I loved Anarchy Online, Age of Conan and Vanguard, occassionaly go back to them but cant handle the graphics and the empty worlds. So I tried all the new ones and hoped to like them but after soloing for 10 or so hours in all of them I just lost interest. GW2 I lasted a couple of days, did some zerg type events and then lost interest. Overall all I want is the exact copy of the previously mentioned mmos with new graphics, imoroved UI and some people to play with. Still feel I didnt do everything I wanted in AO, AoC and Vanguard. I would happily pay a subscription and even bear with a convinience/cosmetics shop if necessary.
The problem with a lot of complexity that @VladMorbius describes has been blunted with all the walkthroughs be it in video or written on every aspect of every game that has any puzzle or hidden ingredient, or dungeon strategy or even a simple recipe. This has largely led to an idea that the games currently being played are terribly shallow.
Exactly. Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
A few details coming from someone who loved Asheron's Call...
The world felt big because of the slow running (even with high run speed skill), and most of it was empty and useless.
Crafting was quite terrible with a lot of micro management.
The lack of storage required you to use alts as mules, dropping items on the floor and praying nobody passed by before you were able to log your other character to grab them.
The was no way to sell your wares beyond spamming chat when online and using bots.
The guild system (monarch/follower), while original, was prone to abuse and exploiting.
The game was crawling with bots. Not just vendor bots, but buff bots, and the worse, combat bots which exploited mobs through walls to level 24/24 without risk. They also ruined dungeons from regular players by making them trivial. If you think bots are the worse in today's games, then you've never played Asheron's Call, the cheater paradise.
AC1 was a quite amazing game back then, but painting it as a perfect paradise is just remembering it through quite thick rose colored glasses.
Travel: There was a complete portal system in-game which allowed you to travel very close to the destination. Traveling the world also presented it's own risk which again added to the sense of accomplishment (remember fighting your way to Ayan Bakur or Teth to sell or buy the best gear).
Crafting was challenging and always came with risk which could be mitigated based on skills, gear and buffs. It meant something to craft a level 10.
Storage issues and muling was solved with the housing system/mansions. Prior to that it was a great challenge to find a safe spot to mule, or you had the social solution which was to get someone in your guild hold your stuff while you swapped out from character to character.
Spamming in the subway or in chat was a great social event, eventually replaced by vendor bots, but i enjoyed doing that.
Exploiting the monarch system was generally done by those who cheated, no different than botting in games today. It also could have been completely mitigated by eliminating combat mod's which frankly are the major reasons why games today are so bloody easy. I've always been against the addition of combat mod's and frankly it has led to the absolute devaluation of all MMO style of gaming, reasons for socializing not to mention took skill right out of today's games.
Yes Asheron's Call wasn't perfect but i'd gladly take the 987 dungeons in Asheron's Call vs. 140 in WoW that were created over the same lifespan anytime.At the end of the day no game is perfect, how can it be with so many different likes/dislikes but it did a lot more right than wrong and was far more fun than anything I've played since.
987 dungeons , I trust you on that, I didn't check but there were indeed many, BUT only a couple of dozen regularly used, all others being mostly useless holes with a few mobs inside.
The housing was not bad, even though vastly inferior to what is done nowadays. Finite number of house models at static places, at peak time not enough houses for everybody, and also only fixed "hooks" where you could place stuff and no free placing.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I agree they weren't all full fledged dungeons but the sheer volume provided plenty of space for leveling and loot grinding. Again for me it's the shear volume of content that is unparalleled in MMO's and I'd love to see just how phenomenal a remake of this game would be today. Despite the fact there would be a flood of you tube videos the shear amount of overall content would dwarf today's mmo's and provide a longevity not seen in today's games. Also just imagine how easily a new version could fix the minor inconveniences discussed in previous posts.
Another thing I admired was every creature and race were unique and no other game has come close to this, there wasn't a dwarf/elf to be found.
I agree they weren't all full fledged dungeons but the sheer volume provided plenty of space for leveling and loot grinding. Again for me it's the shear volume of content that is unparalleled in MMO's and I'd love to see just how phenomenal a remake of this game would be today. Despite the fact there would be a flood of you tube videos the shear amount of overall content would dwarf today's mmo's and provide a longevity not seen in today's games. Also just imagine how easily a new version could fix the minor inconveniences discussed in previous posts.
Another thing I admired was every creature and race were unique and no other game has come close to this, there wasn't a dwarf/elf to be found.
AC was a great MMORPG you could avoid "You Tube Training" if the software did the dungeons to randomise them as you go in. Some games have that but not on the scale you would for a MMO as yet. They did a meta story as well, that was quite novel at the time.
The problem with a lot of complexity that @VladMorbius describes has been blunted with all the walkthroughs be it in video or written on every aspect of every game that has any puzzle or hidden ingredient, or dungeon strategy or even a simple recipe. This has largely led to an idea that the games currently being played are terribly shallow.
Exactly. Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.
Disagree. I recently played New World from zero through the new endgame zone. Didn’t need any external site. Took me a few weeks.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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The problem with a lot of complexity that @VladMorbius describes has been blunted with all the walkthroughs be it in video or written on every aspect of every game that has any puzzle or hidden ingredient, or dungeon strategy or even a simple recipe. This has largely led to an idea that the games currently being played are terribly shallow.
Exactly. Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.
Disagree. I recently played New World from zero through the new endgame zone. Didn’t need any external site. Took me a few weeks.
Needing to read about a game is not something modern developers now feel you should need to do, either in game or from another source. After all they simplified the games down to a pre-teens level so why should you? I would really like to see a test of that, put some pre-teens in front of our modern games and lets see how many need instruction on them. I really don't think they would need much guidance outside of strategy games.
The problem with a lot of complexity that @VladMorbius describes has been blunted with all the walkthroughs be it in video or written on every aspect of every game that has any puzzle or hidden ingredient, or dungeon strategy or even a simple recipe. This has largely led to an idea that the games currently being played are terribly shallow.
Exactly. Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.
Disagree. I recently played New World from zero through the new endgame zone. Didn’t need any external site. Took me a few weeks.
So, for instance, you found alol the info about different builds and equipment in order to complete the Mutation 10 dungeons on your own ? And of course, you've done them all.
Congratulations.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The problem with a lot of complexity that @VladMorbius describes has been blunted with all the walkthroughs be it in video or written on every aspect of every game that has any puzzle or hidden ingredient, or dungeon strategy or even a simple recipe. This has largely led to an idea that the games currently being played are terribly shallow.
Exactly. Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.
Disagree. I recently played New World from zero through the new endgame zone. Didn’t need any external site. Took me a few weeks.
So, for instance, you found alol the info about different builds and equipment in order to complete the Mutation 10 dungeons on your own ? And of course, you've done them all.
Congratulations.
I don't even have one gear set at 625 much less the multiple sets required for the different M10 mutations nor do I have 625 PvP gear.
I'm just amazed how someone can do all end-game content, on their own without guides, in 10 weeks. They probably crafted all their own stuff too.
It bogles my mind how someone can be that clever and efficient. Oh, wait... I think I'll just call bullshit.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The problem with a lot of complexity that @VladMorbius describes has been blunted with all the walkthroughs be it in video or written on every aspect of every game that has any puzzle or hidden ingredient, or dungeon strategy or even a simple recipe. This has largely led to an idea that the games currently being played are terribly shallow.
Exactly. Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.
Disagree. I recently played New World from zero through the new endgame zone. Didn’t need any external site. Took me a few weeks.
So, for instance, you found alol the info about different builds and equipment in order to complete the Mutation 10 dungeons on your own ? And of course, you've done them all.
Congratulations.
Look. If you and the "No Bullshit" guy think you need a set of guides to literally join the "world tour leaving in 10 minutes" train that run zones in groups of 50 players then knock yourself out.
Your statement was " Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow."
Did I run the new Mutation 10 dungeons? No. Did I run every zone, and main questline to completion? Yes. Did I participate in endgame PvP? Yes.
As for "builds" they are ridiculously simple. You have a few choices to make and can click a button to respec at will. even in the middle of a dungeon. Our tank could not handle a boss in Genesis so another guy clicked a button and became our tank while the tank clicked a button and became a DPS.
You can have a whopping 3 skills active. Yeah you can weapon swap and use another weapon while those are on cooldown... such complexity.
Gear choices. Light, medium and heavy. The AuctionHouse literally lists every stat/attribute you could want so it's not like you need some kind of guide to tell you.
I enjoyed playing New World. It was a fun time killer for a few weeks. It in no way can compare to the complexity of an Everquest type game. And honestly, if you think they are of equal complexity I think it says a lot more about how you as a player have changed.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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The problem with a lot of complexity that @VladMorbius describes has been blunted with all the walkthroughs be it in video or written on every aspect of every game that has any puzzle or hidden ingredient, or dungeon strategy or even a simple recipe. This has largely led to an idea that the games currently being played are terribly shallow.
Exactly. Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.
Disagree. I recently played New World from zero through the new endgame zone. Didn’t need any external site. Took me a few weeks.
So, for instance, you found alol the info about different builds and equipment in order to complete the Mutation 10 dungeons on your own ? And of course, you've done them all.
Congratulations.
This is exactly part of the problem with todays games. All the content leading up to the very end game is on absolute EZ mode. Then they throw in a massive grindfest for tiny bit of end game content. Many people only want to play at the end game in the first place but have to spend weeks of absolute brain numbing gameplay to get there.
I know when I played New World I was at the end game and didnt see any mutations dungeons so this must be new. This is why these games fail. Why dont they have different paths for people, so people that like tough content have something to do while advancing. Maybe the solution is having different types of servers. Some servers on EZ mode and others with higher difficulty.
I am tired of 99% dumbed down game, to get to 1% of interesting play.
To be clear about New World's "endgame." It isn't when you reach 60 (which BTW, takes hours not weeks) nor when you get your gear and expertise to 600 nor when you play some in Brimstone Sands, or when you've done all the quests there.
The current PvE endgame is being able to do m10 mutated dungeons (Mythics in WOWspeak) and that requires upgrading your gear from 600 to 625 using umbral shards (which are quite a grind to get) for not just one set of gear but for several since the key to doing those successfully is having the right type of ward against the specific type of extra damage for that mutation.
It may not be everyone's idea of fun and that's very fair and one of the main reasons players burn out on NW early and easily. The PvP really doesn't have an end-game as such other than grinding and upgrading yet another set of gear, a PvP-specific set with resilience, etc., to 625 using the same PvE grind you used to get all your mutated dungeon sets.
So it IS a hell of a grind almost of old-school MMO proportions (Lineage 2 anyone?) but IMO that's not even the retention problem. The problem is that there is not enough vertical progression reward for that extra grind.
The successful MMOs that retain a healthy population are the ones that have a tangible payoff for your grind time. They do it through expansions with higher level zones (the WOW method) or in the case of ESO with a system of passives "inspired" (some would say copied) by the Diablo 3 Paragon system where you can grind for months just as much as you do in NW but you do feel more powerful as you grind those champion points.
Grind is not a dirty word in MMOs. But it comes in different varieties and the ones we like, or at least put up with, are the grinds where we feel the payoff is worth it, and despite what many say here, it's most definitely more power that we want not just horizontal side activities.
Just don't go around spouting nonsense about how you did NW endgame unless you can run every dungeon at m10 difficulty because THAT is the current endgame there whether we like it or not.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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Too funny. What percentage of players have run “every dungeon at m10 difficulty”?
.05%? Less?
The statement at hand said” Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.”
To which I made my response.
If you want to contend that there are 4 dungeons you can run over and over again that get harder with mutations and might rival something from an old school game that is a very different question.
But complexity? Not even in the same ballpark compared to EQ era games.
Click I’m a tank. Click I’m a healer. Click now I’m super smart but weak. Click now I’m super strong. How will I ever master these 3 skills at the same time? Weapon swap to 6? Wshew that was hard But maybe my build needs to e tweaked? Click. Wshew that was hard.
Don’t confuse “difficulty” in a few dungeons you grind 1000 times for overall game complexity.
Again, NW was fun. I enjoyed it. Best game I ever got for free (twice). But comparing its complexity to EverQuest is absurd.
PS: Don’t confuse grind with complexity either. You do not need a guidebook to say “Watch world chat and join a World Tour Zerg to run through a zone in a group of 50 and open all the chests”. Or a guide to tell you to “Run this dungeon 100 times until you get to gear score x.” That’s not complexity. It’s the opposite. Grind has always existed but old games had grinds and were complex. NW added some grind to endgame. Zero complexity.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Just a quick drop in comment: complexity and depth are not the same thing.
Complexity is the "coin" you use to buy depth, i.e. you cannot have depth without some complexity. But you can have complexity without depth: its called bloat.
From what I've read from game designers, depth is the ultimate goal. It's what most game designers aim for, but its difficult to achieve. So, a bad game designer will often add a ton of complexity, hoping it will lead to depth, but usually it just leads to bloat.
If you only have a lot of complexity, without depth, then it can still be fun to learn....the first time. But it's a one-hit-wonder: once you've learned everything and seen through the bloat, there isn't much left. Depth, on the other hand, keeps things engaging for much longer, and also leads to emergent gameplay.
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Just a quick drop in comment: complexity and depth are not the same thing.
Complexity is the "coin" you use to buy depth, i.e. you cannot have depth without some complexity. But you can have complexity without depth: its called bloat.
From what I've read from game designers, depth is the ultimate goal. It's what most game designers aim for, but its difficult to achieve. So, a bad game designer will often add a ton of complexity, hoping it will lead to depth, but usually it just leads to bloat.
If you only have a lot of complexity, without depth, then it can still be fun to learn....the first time. But it's a one-hit-wonder: once you've learned everything and seen through the bloat, there isn't much left. Depth, on the other hand, keeps things engaging for much longer, and also leads to emergent gameplay.
I've always thought that the old adage "everything affects everything else" is a key ingredient in depth. A single "thing" doesn't have to affect all other "things", just one, and then that other "thing" affects other "things", and so on, and so the first affects them all.
This interaction of systems will affect Player interactions to some degree, and the key is to enhance that interaction as best as possible.
Economy plays a very big role in this, so having a good economy is pretty important.
And no matter hard you might try to sell it, we do not want games where we play generic classes characters (click and change), where we jump around like Mario with a controller, solo our way through the game, and play on our phones.
Not many of you want to play the old games that still remain either, unless you all do and they still only make up a tiny fragment of the market.
Addressed multiple times previously.
No more so than the desire for such being expressed while what does exist continues to be largely ignored.
I have to say this confirms a picture of NW's end game that is concerning for me, it seems to have borrowed too much from the Asian concept of end game and tried to fit that in with a Western one. It does not sound as bad a BDO, but that's hardly an accolade. The decision to concentrate on the dungeons though does show they are attempting to keep end game in a framework we know and love.
It sounds like some may think having separate grind for PvP gear is too much, but PvE and PvP has to be kept separate that is a fundamental of good design in my eyes. I think most of the issues are about how the grind is done, maybe less mutations and more dungeons for example?
For me based on all the additions done last year I still think by the end of this year it may be for me, they are still developing and adding strong content you can't argue with that.
For me based on all the additions done last year I still think by the end of this year it may be for me, they are still developing and adding strong content you can't argue with that.
The new content was some of the best in the game. They definitely applied what they had learned over the prior year when making the new zone.
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I have to say this confirms a picture of NW's end game that is concerning for me, it seems to have borrowed too much from the Asian concept of end game and tried to fit that in with a Western one. It does not sound as bad a BDO, but that's hardly an accolade. The decision to concentrate on the dungeons though does show they are attempting to keep end game in a framework we know and love.
It sounds like some may think having separate grind for PvP gear is too much, but PvE and PvP has to be kept separate that is a fundamental of good design in my eyes. I think most of the issues are about how the grind is done, maybe less mutations and more dungeons for example?
For me based on all the additions done last year I still think by the end of this year it may be for me, they are still developing and adding strong content you can't argue with that.
Not sure what you mean by Asian concept of end game, most recently I played Lost Ark and it was all about running dungeons from beginning to end, with a smattering of "open world" content and story
New World has a very well developed open world with beautiful landscapes and historical vistas everywhere, nothing like LA for sure.
NW also has expeditions, initial dungeons of increasing difficulty which introduce steadily more difficult boss fights starting with typical tank and spank at first, but by Brimstone Sands it's a proper 5 man raid where the group better have good gear and be ready to Dance with the Stars.
Most zones have open world content ranging from easy to quite difficult in the elite areas where knowing what the NPCs are susceptible to so you can apply the proper weapon coatings or employ defensive resistance tinctures is necessary to pull off on level, sometimes even when you are above level.
No clue about mutations really as I am miles from doing that content, if ever, but I've read it's not uncommon for players to bring several sets of gear and respec their skills on the fly multiple times during a run.
This currently is a pita since it cost 200 gold per respec and applying new skills or gear is a totally manual process but devs are reportedly working on ways to make switching easier.
Like many "proper" MMORPGs, player companies who have the mutations well mastered sell carries for in game gold so players can get the large number of umbral shards (used to level up specific gear pieces from 600 to 625) which drop for everyone on a successful, no death clear.
If I were a betting man I'd say many players rush through the quest content spending little to no time on other activities hence find the game more shallow than it really is.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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The world felt big because of the slow running (even with high run speed skill), and most of it was empty and useless.
Crafting was quite terrible with a lot of micro management.
The lack of storage required you to use alts as mules, dropping items on the floor and praying nobody passed by before you were able to log your other character to grab them.
The was no way to sell your wares beyond spamming chat when online and using bots.
The guild system (monarch/follower), while original, was prone to abuse and exploiting.
The game was crawling with bots. Not just vendor bots, but buff bots, and the worse, combat bots which exploited mobs through walls to level 24/24 without risk. They also ruined dungeons from regular players by making them trivial. If you think bots are the worse in today's games, then you've never played Asheron's Call, the cheater paradise.
AC1 was a quite amazing game back then, but painting it as a perfect paradise is just remembering it through quite thick rose colored glasses.
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- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
They may indeed be shallow but many games that initially had difficult puzzles like 'The Secret World' were all given away online. Every game you play now has some guide spring up even before the game is released. We have data miners that can mine every damn thing about a game stripping away any notion of discovery.
Indeed spell casting on Asheron Call was a very complex system but that system would be trivialized today.
I say this with certainty that what we had when we played those old games simply will not exist today. It was the confluence of circumstances that kept the experiences we had when we played those early games that is impossible to be duplicated in any way. It is just what it is.
Exactly. Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow.
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- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The housing was not bad, even though vastly inferior to what is done nowadays. Finite number of house models at static places, at peak time not enough houses for everybody, and also only fixed "hooks" where you could place stuff and no free placing.
Respect, walk
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- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Respect, walk
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- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I'm just amazed how someone can do all end-game content, on their own without guides, in 10 weeks. They probably crafted all their own stuff too.
It bogles my mind how someone can be that clever and efficient. Oh, wait... I think I'll just call bullshit.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Your statement was " Play any of today's MMORPGs without using the help sites, video tutorials and other tools and you'll see they aren't that shallow."
Did I run the new Mutation 10 dungeons? No.
Did I run every zone, and main questline to completion? Yes. Did I participate in endgame PvP? Yes.
As for "builds" they are ridiculously simple. You have a few choices to make and can click a button to respec at will. even in the middle of a dungeon. Our tank could not handle a boss in Genesis so another guy clicked a button and became our tank while the tank clicked a button and became a DPS.
You can have a whopping 3 skills active. Yeah you can weapon swap and use another weapon while those are on cooldown... such complexity.
Gear choices. Light, medium and heavy. The AuctionHouse literally lists every stat/attribute you could want so it's not like you need some kind of guide to tell you.
I enjoyed playing New World. It was a fun time killer for a few weeks. It in no way can compare to the complexity of an Everquest type game. And honestly, if you think they are of equal complexity I think it says a lot more about how you as a player have changed.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is exactly part of the problem with todays games. All the content leading up to the very end game is on absolute EZ mode. Then they throw in a massive grindfest for tiny bit of end game content. Many people only want to play at the end game in the first place but have to spend weeks of absolute brain numbing gameplay to get there.
I know when I played New World I was at the end game and didnt see any mutations dungeons so this must be new. This is why these games fail. Why dont they have different paths for people, so people that like tough content have something to do while advancing. Maybe the solution is having different types of servers. Some servers on EZ mode and others with higher difficulty.
I am tired of 99% dumbed down game, to get to 1% of interesting play.
The current PvE endgame is being able to do m10 mutated dungeons (Mythics in WOWspeak) and that requires upgrading your gear from 600 to 625 using umbral shards (which are quite a grind to get) for not just one set of gear but for several since the key to doing those successfully is having the right type of ward against the specific type of extra damage for that mutation.
It may not be everyone's idea of fun and that's very fair and one of the main reasons players burn out on NW early and easily. The PvP really doesn't have an end-game as such other than grinding and upgrading yet another set of gear, a PvP-specific set with resilience, etc., to 625 using the same PvE grind you used to get all your mutated dungeon sets.
So it IS a hell of a grind almost of old-school MMO proportions (Lineage 2 anyone?) but IMO that's not even the retention problem. The problem is that there is not enough vertical progression reward for that extra grind.
The successful MMOs that retain a healthy population are the ones that have a tangible payoff for your grind time. They do it through expansions with higher level zones (the WOW method) or in the case of ESO with a system of passives "inspired" (some would say copied) by the Diablo 3 Paragon system where you can grind for months just as much as you do in NW but you do feel more powerful as you grind those champion points.
Grind is not a dirty word in MMOs. But it comes in different varieties and the ones we like, or at least put up with, are the grinds where we feel the payoff is worth it, and despite what many say here, it's most definitely more power that we want not just horizontal side activities.
Just don't go around spouting nonsense about how you did NW endgame unless you can run every dungeon at m10 difficulty because THAT is the current endgame there whether we like it or not.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
.05%? Less?
To which I made my response.
Click I’m a tank. Click I’m a healer. Click now I’m super smart but weak. Click now I’m super strong. How will I ever master these 3 skills at the same time? Weapon swap to 6? Wshew that was hard But maybe my build needs to e tweaked? Click. Wshew that was hard.
Again, NW was fun. I enjoyed it. Best game I ever got for free (twice). But comparing its complexity to EverQuest is absurd.
PS: Don’t confuse grind with complexity either. You do not need a guidebook to say “Watch world chat and join a World Tour Zerg to run through a zone in a group of 50 and open all the chests”. Or a guide to tell you to “Run this dungeon 100 times until you get to gear score x.” That’s not complexity. It’s the opposite.
Grind has always existed but old games had grinds and were complex. NW added some grind to endgame. Zero complexity.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
A single "thing" doesn't have to affect all other "things", just one, and then that other "thing" affects other "things", and so on, and so the first affects them all.
This interaction of systems will affect Player interactions to some degree, and the key is to enhance that interaction as best as possible.
Economy plays a very big role in this, so having a good economy is pretty important.
Once upon a time....
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No more so than the desire for such being expressed while what does exist continues to be largely ignored.
Respect, walk
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- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
It sounds like some may think having separate grind for PvP gear is too much, but PvE and PvP has to be kept separate that is a fundamental of good design in my eyes. I think most of the issues are about how the grind is done, maybe less mutations and more dungeons for example?
For me based on all the additions done last year I still think by the end of this year it may be for me, they are still developing and adding strong content you can't argue with that.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
New World has a very well developed open world with beautiful landscapes and historical vistas everywhere, nothing like LA for sure.
NW also has expeditions, initial dungeons of increasing difficulty which introduce steadily more difficult boss fights starting with typical tank and spank at first, but by Brimstone Sands it's a proper 5 man raid where the group better have good gear and be ready to Dance with the Stars.
Most zones have open world content ranging from easy to quite difficult in the elite areas where knowing what the NPCs are susceptible to so you can apply the proper weapon coatings or employ defensive resistance tinctures is necessary to pull off on level, sometimes even when you are above level.
No clue about mutations really as I am miles from doing that content, if ever, but I've read it's not uncommon for players to bring several sets of gear and respec their skills on the fly multiple times during a run.
This currently is a pita since it cost 200 gold per respec and applying new skills or gear is a totally manual process but devs are reportedly working on ways to make switching easier.
Like many "proper" MMORPGs, player companies who have the mutations well mastered sell carries for in game gold so players can get the large number of umbral shards (used to level up specific gear pieces from 600 to 625) which drop for everyone on a successful, no death clear.
If I were a betting man I'd say many players rush through the quest content spending little to no time on other activities hence find the game more shallow than it really is.
YMMV.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon