I really like the flavor of Dungeon Siege's labling what you chose to do in terms of skills. And i really liked being able to choose any skill that i wanted. Those skills would increase and open up more skills based on my use of them. This is such a welcome change compared to the cookie cutter classes of wow and daoc.
I guess i'm in the majority here, which i feel is odd based on the HUGE MMO market that is promoting class systems. I can't wait for a decent game that fosters the skill based system. I want to play my mage-theif-warrior-healer. I may not be GREAT at any one thing, but i'l finally be happy.
Hi, I have not read everyone's comments on this topic, but hey I am not in a debate with you guys. Oh wait Garrett and Frank didn't read or respond to each other comments either. So I am in good company. Anyway, my opinion is that there are 99999999 MMORPG out there. So if half is skill base half is Class base we stilll have 500000000 games to choose from.
Personally, I like an overall archetype restriction on learning skills. I don't think a character should be able to wield both a holy staff and start casting death and decay. Ideally for me would be to have a few overall classes: ie. Fighter, Healer, and Caster. But within those 3 allow players to choose the skills they like but attributes requirement to restrict players from being good at all the skills. If a fighter wants to the best archer around, he should not be able to be the best swordsman and defender.
I have not play every mmorpg out there, but Guildwars seems to be on the right path. There's 6 classes, and within each class there's 5 or so types of skills. A player have a choice to be great at 2-3 of them but not all. The game has its flaws also, but since I don't have to $15 a month to log in it's great for me. I would have merge all the caster types together, perhaps ranger into warrior too. Give player 20 or more basic types of skill to choose from and give attribute points for a character to have a choice of BEST at 3-4 BEST at 1-2, Good at 6-7 Best at 1, Good at 10 Best a none, Good at 15 and so on....
In games where soloing is what most people will be doing most of the time, then skill systems will let players have the freedom they desire, because they are not being denied opportunities by the other players because of their choices in skills. But in group-oriented games, then skill systems will still have the same effect that Garrett stated. Everyone will have the cookie cutter specs, and if they don't, they don't get the groups. I wish that this weren't the case, but sadly, every time I play a game, the elitism tends to come out in force from everyone else.
As to the drawbacks medntioned in the debate and in this consequetive posts in this thread. I have seen none of them in Eve Online, which is purely and only skill-based.
[quote]But in group-oriented games, then skill systems will still have the same effect that Garrett stated. Everyone will have the cookie cutter specs, and if they don't, they don't get the groups. I wish that this weren't the case, but sadly, every time I play a game, the elitism tends to come out in force from everyone else.[/quote]
In a well designed skill based system which is balanced on the run, this issue is nearly nonexistant.
Eve Online has no winning skill combination, not in soloplay and not in group play. In fact, every possible combination of skills is actually usefull in this game. Sure, people tend to specialise, and more people specialise in combat then in crafting or trading. But that has not led to any game imbalances in this case.
Personally, I consider the way in which CCP has applied a skill based system in Eve online as close to the ideal design of character development. The closest I have ever seen. So close, that I wouldn't actually know how to improve on it.
Classes generally supercede skill systems. If you can make a ton of classes and make a very few skills then it's going to be outta whack! I think it's all about balance but, the less you have the less likely anyone's going to enjoy it.
That's one of WoW's biggest problems to me. They have all sorts of classes but, when it comes to skill it's just a kind of thing they threw in at the last second. I think developers should focus more on giving the, player the option to customize their work in skills and, just overall increase class variety. Something of that is possibly to idealistic a project but, it's nice to think about it.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Originally posted by Rod_B I much prefer a skill system. As to the drawbacks medntioned in the debate and in this consequetive posts in this thread. I have seen none of them in Eve Online, which is purely and only skill-based. [quote]But in group-oriented games, then skill systems will still have the same effect that Garrett stated. Everyone will have the cookie cutter specs, and if they don't, they don't get the groups. I wish that this weren't the case, but sadly, every time I play a game, the elitism tends to come out in force from everyone else.[/quote] In a well designed skill based system which is balanced on the run, this issue is nearly nonexistant. Eve Online has no winning skill combination, not in soloplay and not in group play. In fact, every possible combination of skills is actually usefull in this game. Sure, people tend to specialise, and more people specialise in combat then in crafting or trading. But that has not led to any game imbalances in this case. Personally, I consider the way in which CCP has applied a skill based system in Eve online as close to the ideal design of character development. The closest I have ever seen. So close, that I wouldn't actually know how to improve on it.
I like eve's system in ways but in others not I would like to see it also be able to get used based skill gain in eve the time based alone turns me off quite a bit I like to feel that im working toward somthing when im gaining skill and in eve thats not how I feel. I just set the skill to train log off come back a week later and start another skill that is not pleasureable to me. I greatly enjoyed Ultima Online's system some of it was a bit harsh but could be changed to be more user friendly. Basically I mean the crafting skill grinds combat I liked how it was.
As an old UO player and as an SWG player for the past year and a half I'll say this much, a skill based MMO just does not work.
First lets look at UO, first and formost in it's first 2 years we all know UO was the player killers game. All those player killers had the same skill set up, and when one skill was nerfed they went onto the next best skill. Not only that the biggest fault to Ulitma Onlines system was how long it took the skills to 'get up'. I don't believe in powergaming first off, however UO's skill gain was slow... Granted the idea of some of the more powerful skills being costly or taking alot of time worked, however all it took was someone messing around and finding the right marco to use. Take UO's Magery skill, I knew many players who took this skill too 100.0 in a weekend with the use of marcos and a boat. Tamers who are UO's pve gods can be the sameway, I forget how it worked but you'd have alot of GM Tamers by the time I quit UO...
As for SWG the skill system didn't work or fit into the game. In the Pre-Combat Upgrade system it had alot of faults. The main ones being the use of weapon certs, see to use a weapon you'd have to put a skill into a box allowed the use of that weapon. The fault of the system was SWG is based on a movie! So in this system it's saying unless I have a box in Carbines 2, I can't pick up a Stormtrooper E11 Carbine. This is after we've seen Han, Luke and Chewwie running around useing them in New Hope. Then there was a lack of over all balance for the skill system in SWG. In the Pre-Combat Upgrade system everyone took a melee class. It cost less skill points over all, allowing whoever to take skills in Medic. You could work the skills out for something we called Defence Stacking, that would allow a meleer to ingore ranged weapons fire, also most of the in game cridders are melee based and the melee folks got great defences when hunting. I saw many times one single melee fighter taking out 5 Rancors at once. And as it said, everyone took medic, later on my own class Bounty Hunter had alot of Bounty Hunter/Combat Medics.
However I will bring this up, there was one system that was level based and gave you perks or 'skills' as you leveled up. Interplays Classic RPG Fallout, the idea was as you leveled up you'd gain perks, but with some of them you did need other perks or skill in something when taking it. Also the game was a level based game, however as one would 'level up' you could add points to both your stats and in game skills.
I bring that up cuz a system like that could work better in the long run. The big fault I've seen is when they try to turn a skill based system into a level based system like SWG's combat upgrade. However why not do a level based game that as you level up you can pick up skills every level or so. I mean much like D&D I don't see why at higher levels a mage or healer type can't use a sword, only he won't be as good with it as the warrior. Still the skill vs level debate has been going on for years now, and it's not going to end anytime soon.
Ok... I am more of a class based system... but I feel that if skill based were to be balanced well, it would be the most intelligent choice.
For this, I will take a look at The Saga of Ryzom.
In Ryzom, you chose from 3 "packs" at the beginning, out of a total possible of 4 (all fighting, some magic, some fighting, some crafting some harvesting, whatever) then, you would advance those skills. When a certain skill tree got to level 20, it would split into 2, 3, 4, whatever amount different paths. Then, from there, at level 50 they each split again, level 100 again, etc.
With this system, you dont have the problem that you speak of. Sure, theres skill trees. But in order to get the good abilities of a tree, you have to train and specialize a lot. If youre a hardcore fighter, and you want to learn healing skills, youre going to have a tough time training magic (especially with the armor system, which makes your spells cost more if youre wearing too heavy of armor).
This sytem, I feel is the just system. You have choice, but with each choice, there is a reaction.
Either way though, as long as the class or skill system has enough versatility, the game will work well. I hate games like Lineage II or anything similar, where everyone has the same everything. Atleast games like WoW have thigns like the talent tree, which does a little for the games identity crisis.
Skill system is great for a single player game, but when you have to rely on other people to get things done, you expect a healer to perform a certain role.
Class system for a large scale multiplayer game is really the only way to go, you think finding a group in everquest was hard, try finding a group with out a structured system. Classes are for simplicity, and for allowing another player to form a group without having to worry about if the healer is really a wizard in disguise.
I love skill system, so don't think i'm being biased and i've played pretty much every mmo out there, and skill systems will only work in moderation. Otherwise everyone is using the same template to create their characters.
A mix would work however, a cleric has a line of heal spells that define its class. It can pick up a wizard line of spells allowing it some dps. A warrior has a line of skills that allow it to deal melee damage, but can pick up a line of heal spells and essentially make it a paladin.
A free for all skill system will not work, I think of myself as a smart gamer, and I have a group of friends i consider smart, but not to be a jerk, lets face it not everyone is a smart gamer, and relying on some one to really understand a class system, NO THANK YOU.
One last thing to think about... If people create cookie cutter characters, cleric, mage, warrior, etc, using skills that make it the best it can be... is that any different from a class system? Lets face it, if you want a real role in a group besides dmg patrol, you will be a cookie cutter character.
i liked the way galaxies allowed you to level by doing things in a certain area... i'm all for the end of being categorized as level someting or other...
but gw for example is a game that makes combat boring and annoying.
before every match, you can pick from so many different skills, but each work towards something.
basically you've got a ton of skills labeled rock, paper, or scissors.
because of attributes you can only chose to be one... you cant mix, just pick one of them.
you enter the battle having chosen rock, and then pray to god the enemy didnt pick paper.
in warcraft i could kill anyone with any character.
in gw, a monk can take on 4 people at a time if they didnt pick the right skillset to kill the exact type of skillset the monk was.
on the other hand, if you havea mesmer with interrupt capabilities, 1 mesmer can kill 4 monks....
the result? a game with boring combat, where it is always decided by random luck, where good players never shine, because each win or loss has nothing to do with skills.
it's more fun to lose in wow than to win in gw, because losing can teach you how to play better.
losing in gw? well that just reinforces your understanding of how hopeless it is to try and win or lose consistently. even if you attempt to lose in gw by playing bad, or playing when stoned, if your build is right, you'll win.
in wow, you are furious pressing buttons to beat out your opponent, as a caster, every move counts as you are forced to evade melee enemies = fun = not autopilot = not any other mmo on the market = why wow has more subscribers than all other mmo's combined.
wow not only made i possible for any class to own a nother class, it added the ability to freely run around and target people while moving.
gw is a perfect example of why mmo's havent picked up alot of players until now. even when offering free subscription it cant beat wow. mmo makers have been making crappy ass games that only survive because of the mmo appeal.
it is obvious that community DOES NOT make a game. since wow is filled with the youngest group of mmo players of all time, why does it succeed? it's a good game.
and do people agree? or is this just subjective.
lets see, wow costs 50 bucks to buy, and then 15 bucks a month after that, thats about 250 dollars a year.
gw cost 50 bucks forever.
so why did gw sell 1 million copies,and wow sell 6 million and has paying subscribers?
i dont think this is an opinion. i think it's obvious.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Originally posted by Betrayal-X Classes generally supercede skill systems. If you can make a ton of classes and make a very few skills then it's going to be outta whack! I think it's all about balance but, the less you have the less likely anyone's going to enjoy it. That's one of WoW's biggest problems to me. They have all sorts of classes but, when it comes to skill it's just a kind of thing they threw in at the last second. I think developers should focus more on giving the, player the option to customize their work in skills and, just overall increase class variety. Something of that is possibly to idealistic a project but, it's nice to think about it.
i think games need player customization to sponser variety... it's pretty messed up when warriors are casting fireballs and mages are meleeing...
that messes the game :0
but take rogues, you could play those amillion different ways as far as talents go.
i'm more for making games that are fun, and avoiding ever seeing gw game again.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
I have no idea how this is a debated topic?Both systems should coincide in a mmorpg.
I don't have a problem wit ha totally open ended game,however anyone with common sense knows there has to be limitations within each class.A very good example of class limitations is done in FFXI.You can allow a powerful spell wielding mage to handle a greatsword,but his damage with the greatsword has to be far less than a warrioir type class.This is done by giving each class a base damage modifier for each weapon it can use.
To simplify this in an example>>ANY mage type class
base damage:
sword 5
staff 8
dagger 7
greatswd 2
these base damage modifiers would rise with each level ,and at different rates depending on that classes preferred weapon.
There is no way to have a totally open ended game where a mage can weild the best spells,best armour,best weapon and be totoally adept in all areas.This for 100% would make every player exactly the same and offer no game balance.IMO this idea would be totally ridiculous,and i wouldn't give this type game any merit whatsoever.
Keyword in the whole idea is >>>ROLE PLAYING GAME.To me this defines a sort of realism.Your not gonna see a feebly weak type class weilding some massive weapon that weighs 5x what the player weighs.The same goes true for armour.Now if you do want to incorporate this,then the feebly type class should be burdened or have slower movements trying to carry ridiculously over weighted armour/weapon.
EQ2 handles this somewhat,by allowing the bulkier type players to handle heavier loads or inventory and gear.This all makes sense to me and shouldn't be swapped for a totally open ended game.Or a seperate class or skill system based game.
They BOTH need to co exhist with each other in some sorta balance.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
well in honesty i support class based systems and these are my personal reasons
- most mmo's (the ones i play) are Role playing games a class give you a basic role a purelye skill based system removes the ability to have Class lore which can be a major thing in creating atmosphere - skills based systems are amazingly hard to balance and regardless of how good a dev team is they will miss somthing or a player will eventually figure out how to create somthing better than everyone else that will require rebalancing - individuality, yes thats right with a pureley skill base system everyone will gravitate toward the best armour and weapons which WILL LOOK THE SAME so having class weaponry/armours actually creates more diversity in a visual respect - in a class system you can create mor diverse spells and abilities for the fact that they can be guarnteed to be balanced withing what a certain class can do ie that AOE eartquake that does massive dmg is a trade off for having no heal and shitty melee ability (in a skill system youd have all of that) - no one in a fantasy rpg can be GOD you cant have it all thats just the truth you cant be great at everything and thats what imho most people wanting skill based systems push for, the ability to do everything they want
no i may be corrupted by the wonderful game called shadowbane where there are 12 races 22 classes and 47 disciplines
now this is a class system and in truth each class can be built at least 3-4 entirely different ways
i played a templar character for 2 years http://chronicle.ubi.com/Templar.php now without a class based system this character type wouldnt be possible simply for the balancing issues its powers would create, not to mention that the backstory of this classes lore defineds what it is, its behavior and the way a player will precieve you in the game
now i can attest to there being at least 20 different ways to build this single class using different combinations of its own powers and from the 4 disciplines that can be taken now this game is almost 3 years old and needs a lot of improvements easily adding more powers to the classes and even conflicting sub classes to it would creat a host more possibilities
now games like wow or Guild wars simply cant compare to the level of diversity and complexities of this game but due to poor graphics and a steep learning curve of a PVP centric game its player base has become smaller
as for balanced ive yet to see a game that has the balance, the choice, and the openness of this game the ability to level in a matter of days allows you more freedom than youd expect
being able to change your roster of 7 characters (yeah thats right 7 character slots) in a matter of weeks due to being bored with your paticular build or even class, or the fact that someone has learned how to counter your current character
i have played this class based system and have yet to be bored of charater building in the past 2-1/2 years
in summation a class based system allows you to fully integrate a charcter into the game (you are not god stop trying to be) and actually be a part of it rahter than a god walking through it while a skill system allows more diversity look at what it takes away, playing eve i felt no affiliation to what or who my character was their was no loreplay or roleplay to it there was nothing that made it a character it was simply a list of cool skills, now im not a roleplayer but there is somthing to be said for having a character that fits into the story your trying to play in skill based systems allow us freedom yes but they remove the ability for a game to have an atmospher that draws us into them, this is why ive noticed skill based games seem to wear out faster than class based
if i pick up a fantasy rpg i want to be a paladin or a wizard not some combination of them both because it doesnt seem real (no other way to desrcibe it) the archetypes we associate with fantasy are what draw us in, now in a sci-fi game or games like the matrixstyle should be more skill based since there is no archtype to draw from but imho fantasy genre games should remain focused on class based systems of games like shadowbane (try out a 15 day trial to see what i mean if you havent played it)
I think you have to leave the class based mentality to understand a skill based system. You're just a race, learning magic doesn't make you a mage. You're still just a human, that knows how to magic. Having this knowledge isn't going to transform you into extra frail old man and magically prevent you from building muscle to pick up anything heavier than a staff. Likewise, choosing to gain some muscle isn't going to shrink your brain and make it impossible for you to learn to heal. But you'll probably be overloaded if you went ahead and tried to learn something else extra complicated like shipbuilding, and though you may be able to get a grasp on some of it's concepts you won't be able to do nearly as much as someone who chose to learn it from the start, or at the very least you'll start forgetting some of those finer points your old weapons trainer taught you.
I don't think people gravitate towards certain builds in skill-based systems anymore than they do in class based games. Healers and Support characters are always rare. In SWG, where you could only have one character per server there were still enough people choosing non-combat/high investment crafting professions that the market was always pretty much overstocked pre-NGE. Enough choosing seemingly useless professions like Entertainer that, personally, I didn't even want to ride past the cantinas if I didn't have to. I think the impact of people steering away from these things is actually felt more in class-based games since in a skill-based I don't need to look specifically for a priest, but for anyone that is able to heal proficiently. It could be that same human with a broadsword.
Skill system wins hands down. I wont pay $20 per month, or any amount for that matter. For a linear game that dies the minute you hit max level.
Only problem is that no one has done it better yet. UO was good except for the fact that you could heal yourself while fighting at the same time. A game ending problem for me.
Skill system is the only way to give you total choice and flexibility. And in a class system, even your items are picked for you. Oh sure you have to get them to drop, but every1 is going to be trying to get them anyway.
In class based games Level = Time. That is you need to spend more time to get a higher level.
Time = money. You spend money for a period of time in the game world.
Therefore Level is also equal to money. Level = money. The longer you play the better you are, the more you pay the better you are. Not the choices you make or the number of friends you make. I want a game where i need to think about the responses to my actions.
In my idea skill based game it would be made to create a game where you could create a way for each person to win if they put themselves in the right environment and used their skills to their advantage. Not im a mage so therefore i own a warrior.
I voted for skill points. I have played games with both types (wow ffxi and eve and a few others for short period of time) and now i find it alsmot diffucult to imagine myself going back to a class game. I want to be what ever i want to be, i have never meet a person in RL who i could classify in one word or a short sentence. I want my gamming exprence to be an evolving one. This is our fantasy world, where we can explore and do what we want, why would i want to be labeled in a game where i feel that all ppl do in RL is try to label you.
Skill based is not for every one and neither is a class based game. I think big devlopers like Blizard will mostly use class based , imho it has more broad based appeal. ALso there will allways be smaller companyies like ccp that will market there game to a nitch market. Two diffrent types of comapny's and to diffrent games. The real challenge would be to do a GOOD hybrid one where the game would guild you for a time and when you felt ready you can branch out. I have yet to see this , ffxi is a good example on how not to do it. when i played you could almost guess what a players sub would be bassed on the main class.
SOme ppl have posted that skill based games lead to all player pulling towrds one set of skills. I have yet to see this in eve. I am mostly a fighter, but in my corp we have minners, bulders, traders, and hybrids and diffrentypes of each. And this is in a small corp. With out all types of ppl in any game it is bound to fail and making all class or skills relevent is what marks a good dev team from a bad one. You can have unblanced games in any format , with any time of player style. I read alot more player complants on how this class needs to be nerfed or my class need some love ect ect on wow then i have seen on eve. Granted i have a some what limited expericne, and do not want to imply this is how it is in all games cuase i have no idea.
I guess my point in this post was. I play what i like and what keeps me interested, i hope you do as well.
"The reason players will gravitate to a certain skill set is because those skills will work better than others in a combat situation. Those players who specialize in them will always win over players who took the lesser skills. This becomes an issue of game balance and can easily be cured by keeping a class or job system in place."
I read this and laughed my ass off. In a skill based system, this will only happen if developers are stupid enough to put few good skills in.
I voted skill system, because in a good system one would be able do do what they want...to a degree. There would also be a very wide range of getting things done, so one could pick the method that fits best, but that is decently obvious. Asherons call had a great skill system, one that now seems relatively lost, but great none the less. You could be a swordsman and still beat a sword weilding mage if you were smart enough to dodge the blasts and move in quick, like a smart warrior should, and kill him. Or you could counter as an archer doing the "archer dance", aka, dodging and jumping alot while shooting so as to not get hit...which ends up looking alot like a weird dance.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I think EVE online found a good medium between the two arguments. You are allowed to choose any path you want but it will take literal years to become a "jack of all trades". Therefore in order to have any real success in EVE Online one must specialize down a certain path. I personally enjoy the fact that I don't have to XP grind myself into a migraine because the game allows me to gain skills when I log off. This is perfect for those who consider themselves casual players. The only real grind I have found in the game is gaining ISK's. This is where it pays to specialize. I see that the prerequesites also help to balance the game also. Many times a certain skill path requires 2 to 3 origins such as science, engineering, industrial, etc... Congrats EVE online for developing a great gaming formula!
Skill Systems lets me have the freedom to pick HOW I want to play. And thats what I like. If I want to be a sword fighting and magic casting dwarf, then let me be that and screw the balancing.... All are not as powerful as the next guy, thats the way things work. FREEDOM
Originally posted by sicsyco - individuality, yes thats right with a pureley skill base system everyone will gravitate toward the best armour and weapons which WILL LOOK THE SAME so having class weaponry/armours actually creates more diversity in a visual respect
Wrong. In a properly designed game there is no "best" weapon or armor. IRL the armor that offers the best protection is the heaviest and most restrictive, it also won't protect against everything (Firearms and Plate armor FoEx). Likewise there's no perfect weapon; with melee the weapon that does the most damage tends to be the heaviest, reach also adds to mass, and the heavier the weapon the slower and harder it is to use. While a properly balanced sword will be easier to weild than an improperly balanced one the less balanced blades do more damage. When you get to missile weapons and firearms it becomes even more complex. It's all a trade off: protection verses restricn and damage&reach versus ease&speed. That's why the armor of choice in the modern world is a carbon based cloth (kevlar) with a few small metal plates over the vitals.
Originally posted by sicsyco - in a class system you can create mor diverse spells and abilities for the fact that they can be guarnteed to be balanced withing what a certain class can do ie that AOE eartquake that does massive dmg is a trade off for having no heal and shitty melee ability (in a skill system youd have all of that)
That depends on the system. Nobody should be able to be a pure polymath and master every skill in a game but nothing should prevent someone from being a jack of all trades. The old phrase goes "Jack of all trades; Master of none". Sure you can have a bit of earth magic and a bit of first aid and a bit of a melee skill but unless you focus of one of them you're never going to be great at any of them. However some people quite enjoy being only mediocre just like some like being Johnny-one-spells ("Yes I only do fireballs but it's a fireball that can take down a dragon...").
Originally posted by sicsyco - no one in a fantasy rpg can be GOD you cant have it all thats just the truth you cant be great at everything and thats what imho most people wanting skill based systems push for, the ability to do everything they want
Why forever not? After a few years of dilligent roleplaying and steady advancement at least a few players deserve apotheosis (probably becoming Game Masters in the process). Take RL examples: Spike Milligan, a comedy god; author, playwrite, commedian, poet (serious, humerous and for children), musician (trumpet, guitar, drums and piano) and unwilling soldier. Bruce Lee, Kung Fu God; actor, acrobat, dancer, writer, script writer, director, philosopher, master of both armed and unarmed close combat, and teacher. Lemmy, Rock & Roll God; musician, songwriter, historian, archivist, gambler, strongman, brawler, drinker, sex-machine, psychochemist and survivor. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, not a god but; doctor, writer, historian, detective/criminalist (practicsed the Dr Bell method), parapsychologist, winter sportsman (introduced skiing to Switzerland), whaler, bare-knuckle boxer, world traveller and served in the Boer War. Howard Carter; Archaeologist, historian, mountaineer (once rappelled down a clif face to single handedly take on a gang of tomb robbers), and adventurer (the original two-fisted archaeologist, all he needs is a bullwhip). Harry Houdini; escapologist, stage magician, world traveller, parapsychologist and international man of mystery. None of them, however, are known for their black smithing...
Originally posted by sicsyco in summation a class based system allows you to fully integrate a charcter into the game (you are not god stop trying to be) and actually be a part of it rahter than a god walking through it while a skill system allows more diversity look at what it takes away, playing eve i felt no affiliation to what or who my character was their was no loreplay or roleplay to it there was nothing that made it a character it was simply a list of cool skills, now im not a roleplayer but there is somthing to be said for having a character that fits into the story your trying to play in skill based systems allow us freedom yes but they remove the ability for a game to have an atmospher that draws us into them, this is why ive noticed skill based games seem to wear out faster than class based
I have a few ideas how to enforce roleplaying within MMORPG's but unless someone's prepared to sign an agreement to pay me for them...
Originally posted by sicsyco if i pick up a fantasy rpg i want to be a paladin or a wizard not some combination of them both because it doesnt seem real (no other way to desrcibe it) the archetypes we associate with fantasy are what draw us in, now in a sci-fi game or games like the matrixstyle should be more skill based since there is no archtype to draw from but imho fantasy genre games should remain focused on class based systems of games like shadowbane (try out a 15 day trial to see what i mean if you havent played it)
Sorry but that's a lack of imagination on your part. If you were a roleplayer the idea of a paladin who knows a bit of wizardy (parents were wizards, or maybe born with a natural talent for magic but a drive for knighthood) would not be alien. Fanatasy fiction is filled with characters barely recognisable within the old D&D archetypes. I'm sick of playing archetypes based on models almost a century old.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference." -- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
I think ideally I'd like a good mix of both, a system based on skills but with a class tree.
Personally my favorite class system to date has been MxO's, I thought it was extremely well done and had more then a passing resemblence to the original SWG system. What I liked most was that it added skill management to the equation, versatility and the ability to at least be somewhat unique, it also didn't leave you out in the cold if you decided to change your mind a few months down the road.
Let's face it, the biggest problem with a hardcore class system is that it's just way to stiffling.
If I play a character in a class system and let's say I want to be a... healer. So I start working my way up the ranks, let's just say that after a few months I get really bored of just healing, what if I'd like to do something else ? Well in a class system, you don't have choice, you can re-roll a new toon and that's pretty much it.
In the former SWG, the current MxO or even Saga of Ryzom, you can adapt to your own whim or even that of your guild and groups, you tell the game how you want to play, not the other way around. Then of course there's side bonuses to that, people get to know you much more, you don't have 5 alts going so friends and foes alike will actually get the chance to know you.
I really hope that extremely static class/skill systems like that of WoW and EQ2 will be a thing of the past at some point, but I'm sure there will always be a market for them, I'd just like to see some originality used to get these games concentrating on fun again, instead of setting arbitrary rules on me.
Class systems are easier to implement then skill based systems, so... easier for the developer. To some extent it also adds ease to the community because you can look at a particular char and know their role in a group setting.
It is however, also incrediably boring after playing EQ and then WoW (which in my opinion will always be a EQ clone). Dev's would like us to think the class based system is tried tested and true....but its getting very old for those of us who don't call WoW our first mmo.
In every single game I've played that has wizards and warriors in it (regardless if its a skill or class based game) , wizards are superior in bringing the bad guys down. For this reason skill based systems are difficult because those that want the best skill sets will always start with best template. This makes it good for solo but difficult for group settings.
In the end I think the dev's of most games have chosen a class based system because its easier for them to define in their own minds and in the player's minds. Once they have this working frame of reference they can then build around it.
The problem is, each time dev's go with this type of structure in their games they are reusing the same old.
one of the biggest gripes ive heard towards class systems are that they are restrictive, in that if i get bored of said class i have to reroll and its not worth it
games like shadowbane tear down this problem with the simple fact that their are enough classes/race/discipline combos to fill almost any niche a player could or would want
and rerolling generally on takes a matter of days not months
i recently tried EVE and was disgusted that i would have to pay for agame for roughly 3-4 months before i would be able to effectively engage in PVP and it would take upwards of a year to be capable of piloting a carrier
now that is by far a much greater money grab than any class based system
games like shadowbane are based completely on PVP and most of this generally takes place at max levels, now max level is easily attainable within the span of a week and ive heard of people managing it within two days of hardcore leveling
this is where this game is meant to be played, in the end game, you dont become bored simply because you refine you character into as deadly a tool as possible, and in the event you do become bored of your archetype you simply spend a day or two rerolling
this is a pre view of the class sytem that shadowbane uses now the game is old so i wouldnt suggest those aside from hardcore gamers bother with the actual trial but the basic system works like this
base class - choosen from the standard archetypes fighter, mage, healr, rogue - grants several very basic skill attributed to the achetypes at low power levels (1-40)
at level 10 promotion to your Profession (generally refered to as your class - grants the bread and butter powers of your class grants weapons skills and abilities - some powers are granted at high power levels others much lower for - sword would come as a lvl 5 weapon powers while staff may come at lvl 40 on a mage - some professions maybe based of of multiple different base classes (ex. mage assasins, rogue assasins two completely different entities using generally completely different combinations of those skills)
lvl 20 disiplines (generaly not obtained until around level 40 or so) 45 possible choices some not open to everyone due to race/class restrictions and balancing issues add inherent abilities, powers and weapon skills
ex. Wyrmslayer, grants spear skill and spear mastery to just about any class does not grant weapon powers if that class is not one who generally uses spears adds a cold Damage over Time to his weapon (if its a spear) and adds several resistance buffs to fire
huntsman adds spear, bow and polearms
so a system like this using enough combinations/ sub levels of archetypes and classes allows you to retain your indivduality as well as remian easyt o balance, identify and create significant game lore to suit the setting
in terms of player role playing their (oimho monstrocities) is that the lore is player created and lets face it generally not up to par of a well done games it also does not allow you to add some of the more interesting and unique abilites that can be added to class systems
the templar in shadow bane are hybrid fighters/casters they have HP some where betweena mage and a fighter and have some powerful spells that drain stamina and health from their opponents they also have one of the most interesting and "cool" powers ive seen Called "Wings of the Seraphim" it grants 75 point bonuses to 3 stats natural flight and an aweome "seraphim form" (see demonic type angel) now powers like this simply would not exsist in a skilll based MMO for the simpl reason everyone would have it any one who turned downa power buff like this would be stupid, however in a class system this can be balanced with health penalties etc
the templar of Sb is the Skill based archetype everyone wants to be the caster with a sword in HA who can heal them selves and look its in a class based system wtf
class based systems are the best sadly games like WoW and EQ2 have not put in the time effort or energy to make them complex enough to allow players "enough" freedom
hell my preist based char in SB has wyrmslayer and Darksworn my priest is like this
Medium armour, large spear, maximum healing, a small health drain , stuns & Roots now most people do not expect a healer to be able to kill them which helps two fold they dont expect it and they cry like little babies when it happens
i agree the class based systems of the past do not work, but i also agree time based skill systems dont either EVE is a money grab imho lots of cool things other mmos should look at but still just a time grabbing money scheme
the perfect mmo system needs
- to utilize a class system/skills system hybrid - have 4 base classes archetypes - as many possible professions/races as possible 12 races 14 classes is nice but more is needed - allow sub professions such as Priest- healing priest, Dark priest, Apothecary (specializing poisons) and shaman types
adding more disiplines and making them all strong in their own rights
within each profession their needs to be skills that are given different scales some will obviously be restricted a mage will seldom carry a warhammer not because he cant but because it will suck for him to bother using it
rather than restricting weapons simply just dont give them any perks if i were a templar why would i use anything except the flamind sword im able to use because im a templar why if that is granted cool abilities would i choose a a Hammer? that should be the choice not whetehr or not its blanked our red to me
a completely skill based system will be very plain and will not allow for extreme powers or abilities simply because it would be a balancing night mare and the release date for such a game would be far longer than anything weve seen
try taking 10 powers from say WoW now grant those two one character and do the same for another, now balance those two so that the winner will be different after each fight. good luck ill see you in a month or two
skill based game swill never and imho can't ever be balanced i was informed even in eve anything with a heavy Nos and a range exceeding 50 km is nearly god, well thats sounds balanced? the freedom of a skill based system sounds great because who wants to turn down freedom but the truth is a well done multi-class system will always draw more long term appeal be cause it will be balanced and simple
It is quite possible for Devs to create many good skills within a skill based system. The problem arises when the system allows the mixing and matching of any of those skills without restrictions. It does in fact lead to Min-maxing and FOTM builds.
This would not be a huge problem if it did not affect how the players handle game content; unfortunately it does. Where various skills can be balanced against one another in most situations, it is extremely difficult to balance against some combinations. Take the fastest lightest weapon coupled with massive enhancement buffs and the heaviest armor buffed with spells intended to increase a "mage" type's protection due to them usually wearing lighter armor, a shield, also buffed, and throw in the ability to heal, and root or stun an enemy if the game has such abilites. The result is a demi god who is able to solo nearly anything in the game.
With this type of "freedom" Devs are forced into a corner. Due to the ease with which monsters are dispatched by these uber-builds, do they skew the risk/reward ratio to reflect it? Do they simply create rediculously powerful creatures that only a group of min-maxers can tackle like making them immune to entire ranges of damage types and effects, etc, leaving the content beyond the reach of other players who did not choose to span several disciplines (for example, making something immune to nature damage and totally negating a "single disciplne" druid type)? Perhaps they just ignore the ubers and continue creating content along the same scale as before, eventually allowing the entire system to be flooded with high level loot, gold, and bored, unchallenged players.
Min-maxing also takes a toll on those Roleplayers who actually play within the intent of the multiclass/freeform skill system. Someone who dedicates themself to a certain skillset is going to be quite put off when a min-maxer becomes just as powerful as they at thier chosen discipline, especially when said discipline is picked up simply as a stepping stone on the way to Uberness rather than having any dedication to it.
Class based systems can mostly eliminate these sorts of problems. The Devs can create challenging content without having to worry about a Ranger using a Sorceror's Ice spells to lock down a boss type monster and kill it at range without ever taking a single point of damage. Paladins can't throw a damage shield on themselves and toss a Flame DoT and then just stand there and let the enemy kill themselves against the Paladin's shield.
The classes cannot be too strict, however, or players lose thier sense of individuality. The best system I can think of would be one of pseudo-class Affinity. At creation the player chooses an affinity for melee, missle, arcane magic, divine magic, or stealth. These affinities determine the skillpoint cost for abilities and skills. Skills which match the players affinity cost the base amount. Skills outside of the affinity cost much more than thier base. This allows full freedom of choice, but at the cost of possibly not Mastering a specific skill. You could master a couple of rogue abilities and also have a bit of fire casting ability to create diversions, etc., or you could sacrifice everything but Stealth and take more flame ability, setting fiery ambushes against your foes, essentially becoming a pyromaniac Assasin. You would never have the full bore nuking power of someone who is dedicated to Flame nor be a Master Thief, however. This type of system still needs to utilize caution as some combinations of skills can have unforseen results. A mediocre Flame skill coupled with a mastered stealth skill's sneak attack damage multiplier might end up more powerful than a fully mastered Flame Elementalists best flame spell, for example.
Should a developer decide to go with the strict class system, then I believe the best way to achieve balance is purely through rock-paper-scissors type content. No Rogue would ever be able to stand toe to toe with a single ogre, yet that Dragon at a stalemate with 6 warriors would fall to a single well placed Rogue's stealth attack from the shadows (while it is distracted by the warriors, of course).
No single game has implemented any of these sort of systems yet. The perfect solutions exist fragmented across various games, but noone except the players seem to have pieced them together.
Drev
"If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it." -Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming
"In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I'd rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity." -Raph Koster
Comments
I really like the flavor of Dungeon Siege's labling what you chose to do in terms of skills. And i really liked being able to choose any skill that i wanted. Those skills would increase and open up more skills based on my use of them. This is such a welcome change compared to the cookie cutter classes of wow and daoc.
I guess i'm in the majority here, which i feel is odd based on the HUGE MMO market that is promoting class systems. I can't wait for a decent game that fosters the skill based system. I want to play my mage-theif-warrior-healer. I may not be GREAT at any one thing, but i'l finally be happy.
Hi, I have not read everyone's comments on this topic, but hey I am not in a debate with you guys. Oh wait Garrett and Frank didn't read or respond to each other comments either. So I am in good company. Anyway, my opinion is that there are 99999999 MMORPG out there. So if half is skill base half is Class base we stilll have 500000000 games to choose from.
Personally, I like an overall archetype restriction on learning skills. I don't think a character should be able to wield both a holy staff and start casting death and decay. Ideally for me would be to have a few overall classes: ie. Fighter, Healer, and Caster. But within those 3 allow players to choose the skills they like but attributes requirement to restrict players from being good at all the skills. If a fighter wants to the best archer around, he should not be able to be the best swordsman and defender.
I have not play every mmorpg out there, but Guildwars seems to be on the right path. There's 6 classes, and within each class there's 5 or so types of skills. A player have a choice to be great at 2-3 of them but not all. The game has its flaws also, but since I don't have to $15 a month to log in it's great for me. I would have merge all the caster types together, perhaps ranger into warrior too. Give player 20 or more basic types of skill to choose from and give attribute points for a character to have a choice of
BEST at 3-4
BEST at 1-2, Good at 6-7
Best at 1, Good at 10
Best a none, Good at 15
and so on....
Bombus
I much prefer a skill system.
As to the drawbacks medntioned in the debate and in this consequetive posts in this thread. I have seen none of them in Eve Online, which is purely and only skill-based.
[quote]But in group-oriented games, then skill systems will still have the same effect that Garrett stated. Everyone will have the cookie cutter specs, and if they don't, they don't get the groups. I wish that this weren't the case, but sadly, every time I play a game, the elitism tends to come out in force from everyone else.[/quote]
In a well designed skill based system which is balanced on the run, this issue is nearly nonexistant.
Eve Online has no winning skill combination, not in soloplay and not in group play. In fact, every possible combination of skills is actually usefull in this game. Sure, people tend to specialise, and more people specialise in combat then in crafting or trading. But that has not led to any game imbalances in this case.
Personally, I consider the way in which CCP has applied a skill based system in Eve online as close to the ideal design of character development. The closest I have ever seen. So close, that I wouldn't actually know how to improve on it.
Classes generally supercede skill systems. If you can make a ton of classes and make a very few skills then it's going to be outta whack! I think it's all about balance but, the less you have the less likely anyone's going to enjoy it.
That's one of WoW's biggest problems to me. They have all sorts of classes but, when it comes to skill it's just a kind of thing they threw in at the last second. I think developers should focus more on giving the, player the option to customize their work in skills and, just overall increase class variety. Something of that is possibly to idealistic a project but, it's nice to think about it.
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Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
As an old UO player and as an SWG player for the past year and a half I'll say this much, a skill based MMO just does not work.
First lets look at UO, first and formost in it's first 2 years we all know UO was the player killers game. All those player killers had the same skill set up, and when one skill was nerfed they went onto the next best skill. Not only that the biggest fault to Ulitma Onlines system was how long it took the skills to 'get up'. I don't believe in powergaming first off, however UO's skill gain was slow... Granted the idea of some of the more powerful skills being costly or taking alot of time worked, however all it took was someone messing around and finding the right marco to use. Take UO's Magery skill, I knew many players who took this skill too 100.0 in a weekend with the use of marcos and a boat. Tamers who are UO's pve gods can be the sameway, I forget how it worked but you'd have alot of GM Tamers by the time I quit UO...
As for SWG the skill system didn't work or fit into the game. In the Pre-Combat Upgrade system it had alot of faults. The main ones being the use of weapon certs, see to use a weapon you'd have to put a skill into a box allowed the use of that weapon. The fault of the system was SWG is based on a movie! So in this system it's saying unless I have a box in Carbines 2, I can't pick up a Stormtrooper E11 Carbine. This is after we've seen Han, Luke and Chewwie running around useing them in New Hope. Then there was a lack of over all balance for the skill system in SWG. In the Pre-Combat Upgrade system everyone took a melee class. It cost less skill points over all, allowing whoever to take skills in Medic. You could work the skills out for something we called Defence Stacking, that would allow a meleer to ingore ranged weapons fire, also most of the in game cridders are melee based and the melee folks got great defences when hunting. I saw many times one single melee fighter taking out 5 Rancors at once. And as it said, everyone took medic, later on my own class Bounty Hunter had alot of Bounty Hunter/Combat Medics.
However I will bring this up, there was one system that was level based and gave you perks or 'skills' as you leveled up. Interplays Classic RPG Fallout, the idea was as you leveled up you'd gain perks, but with some of them you did need other perks or skill in something when taking it. Also the game was a level based game, however as one would 'level up' you could add points to both your stats and in game skills.
I bring that up cuz a system like that could work better in the long run. The big fault I've seen is when they try to turn a skill based system into a level based system like SWG's combat upgrade. However why not do a level based game that as you level up you can pick up skills every level or so. I mean much like D&D I don't see why at higher levels a mage or healer type can't use a sword, only he won't be as good with it as the warrior. Still the skill vs level debate has been going on for years now, and it's not going to end anytime soon.
Ok... I am more of a class based system... but I feel that if skill based were to be balanced well, it would be the most intelligent choice.
For this, I will take a look at The Saga of Ryzom.
In Ryzom, you chose from 3 "packs" at the beginning, out of a total possible of 4 (all fighting, some magic, some fighting, some crafting some harvesting, whatever) then, you would advance those skills. When a certain skill tree got to level 20, it would split into 2, 3, 4, whatever amount different paths. Then, from there, at level 50 they each split again, level 100 again, etc.
With this system, you dont have the problem that you speak of. Sure, theres skill trees. But in order to get the good abilities of a tree, you have to train and specialize a lot. If youre a hardcore fighter, and you want to learn healing skills, youre going to have a tough time training magic (especially with the armor system, which makes your spells cost more if youre wearing too heavy of armor).
This sytem, I feel is the just system. You have choice, but with each choice, there is a reaction.
Either way though, as long as the class or skill system has enough versatility, the game will work well. I hate games like Lineage II or anything similar, where everyone has the same everything. Atleast games like WoW have thigns like the talent tree, which does a little for the games identity crisis.
Skill system is great for a single player game, but when you have to rely on other people to get things done, you expect a healer to perform a certain role.
Class system for a large scale multiplayer game is really the only way to go, you think finding a group in everquest was hard, try finding a group with out a structured system. Classes are for simplicity, and for allowing another player to form a group without having to worry about if the healer is really a wizard in disguise.
I love skill system, so don't think i'm being biased and i've played pretty much every mmo out there, and skill systems will only work in moderation. Otherwise everyone is using the same template to create their characters.
A mix would work however, a cleric has a line of heal spells that define its class. It can pick up a wizard line of spells allowing it some dps. A warrior has a line of skills that allow it to deal melee damage, but can pick up a line of heal spells and essentially make it a paladin.
A free for all skill system will not work, I think of myself as a smart gamer, and I have a group of friends i consider smart, but not to be a jerk, lets face it not everyone is a smart gamer, and relying on some one to really understand a class system, NO THANK YOU.
One last thing to think about... If people create cookie cutter characters, cleric, mage, warrior, etc, using skills that make it the best it can be... is that any different from a class system? Lets face it, if you want a real role in a group besides dmg patrol, you will be a cookie cutter character.
balance becomes impossible...
i liked the way galaxies allowed you to level by doing things in a certain area... i'm all for the end of being categorized as level someting or other...
but gw for example is a game that makes combat boring and annoying.
before every match, you can pick from so many different skills, but each work towards something.
basically you've got a ton of skills labeled rock, paper, or scissors.
because of attributes you can only chose to be one... you cant mix, just pick one of them.
you enter the battle having chosen rock, and then pray to god the enemy didnt pick paper.
in warcraft i could kill anyone with any character.
in gw, a monk can take on 4 people at a time if they didnt pick the right skillset to kill the exact type of skillset the monk was.
on the other hand, if you havea mesmer with interrupt capabilities, 1 mesmer can kill 4 monks....
the result? a game with boring combat, where it is always decided by random luck, where good players never shine, because each win or loss has nothing to do with skills.
it's more fun to lose in wow than to win in gw, because losing can teach you how to play better.
losing in gw? well that just reinforces your understanding of how hopeless it is to try and win or lose consistently. even if you attempt to lose in gw by playing bad, or playing when stoned, if your build is right, you'll win.
in wow, you are furious pressing buttons to beat out your opponent, as a caster, every move counts as you are forced to evade melee enemies = fun = not autopilot = not any other mmo on the market = why wow has more subscribers than all other mmo's combined.
wow not only made i possible for any class to own a nother class, it added the ability to freely run around and target people while moving.
gw is a perfect example of why mmo's havent picked up alot of players until now. even when offering free subscription it cant beat wow. mmo makers have been making crappy ass games that only survive because of the mmo appeal.
it is obvious that community DOES NOT make a game. since wow is filled with the youngest group of mmo players of all time, why does it succeed? it's a good game.
and do people agree? or is this just subjective.
lets see, wow costs 50 bucks to buy, and then 15 bucks a month after that, thats about 250 dollars a year.
gw cost 50 bucks forever.
so why did gw sell 1 million copies,and wow sell 6 million and has paying subscribers?
i dont think this is an opinion. i think it's obvious.
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i think games need player customization to sponser variety... it's pretty messed up when warriors are casting fireballs and mages are meleeing...
that messes the game :0
but take rogues, you could play those amillion different ways as far as talents go.
i'm more for making games that are fun, and avoiding ever seeing gw game again.
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I have no idea how this is a debated topic?Both systems should coincide in a mmorpg.
I don't have a problem wit ha totally open ended game,however anyone with common sense knows there has to be limitations within each class.A very good example of class limitations is done in FFXI.You can allow a powerful spell wielding mage to handle a greatsword,but his damage with the greatsword has to be far less than a warrioir type class.This is done by giving each class a base damage modifier for each weapon it can use.
To simplify this in an example>>ANY mage type class
base damage:
sword 5
staff 8
dagger 7
greatswd 2
these base damage modifiers would rise with each level ,and at different rates depending on that classes preferred weapon.
There is no way to have a totally open ended game where a mage can weild the best spells,best armour,best weapon and be totoally adept in all areas.This for 100% would make every player exactly the same and offer no game balance.IMO this idea would be totally ridiculous,and i wouldn't give this type game any merit whatsoever.
Keyword in the whole idea is >>>ROLE PLAYING GAME.To me this defines a sort of realism.Your not gonna see a feebly weak type class weilding some massive weapon that weighs 5x what the player weighs.The same goes true for armour.Now if you do want to incorporate this,then the feebly type class should be burdened or have slower movements trying to carry ridiculously over weighted armour/weapon.
EQ2 handles this somewhat,by allowing the bulkier type players to handle heavier loads or inventory and gear.This all makes sense to me and shouldn't be swapped for a totally open ended game.Or a seperate class or skill system based game.
They BOTH need to co exhist with each other in some sorta balance.
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well in honesty i support class based systems and these are my personal reasons
- most mmo's (the ones i play) are Role playing games a class give you a basic role a purelye skill based system removes the ability to have Class lore which can be a major thing in creating atmosphere
- skills based systems are amazingly hard to balance and regardless of how good a dev team is they will miss somthing or a player will eventually figure out how to create somthing better than everyone else that will require rebalancing
- individuality, yes thats right with a pureley skill base system everyone will gravitate toward the best armour and weapons which WILL LOOK THE SAME so having class weaponry/armours actually creates more diversity in a visual respect
- in a class system you can create mor diverse spells and abilities for the fact that they can be guarnteed to be balanced withing what a certain class can do ie that AOE eartquake that does massive dmg is a trade off for having no heal and shitty melee ability (in a skill system youd have all of that)
- no one in a fantasy rpg can be GOD you cant have it all thats just the truth you cant be great at everything and thats what imho most people wanting skill based systems push for, the ability to do everything they want
no i may be corrupted by the wonderful game called shadowbane where there are 12 races 22 classes and 47 disciplines
now this is a class system and in truth each class can be built at least 3-4 entirely different ways
i played a templar character for 2 years http://chronicle.ubi.com/Templar.php
now without a class based system this character type wouldnt be possible simply for the balancing issues its powers would create, not to mention that the backstory of this classes lore defineds what it is, its behavior and the way a player will precieve you in the game
now i can attest to there being at least 20 different ways to build this single class using different combinations of its own powers and from the 4 disciplines that can be taken
now this game is almost 3 years old and needs a lot of improvements
easily adding more powers to the classes and even conflicting sub classes to it would creat a host more possibilities
now games like wow or Guild wars simply cant compare to the level of diversity and complexities of this game but due to poor graphics and a steep learning curve of a PVP centric game its player base has become smaller
as for balanced ive yet to see a game that has the balance, the choice, and the openness of this game the ability to level in a matter of days allows you more freedom than youd expect
being able to change your roster of 7 characters (yeah thats right 7 character slots) in a matter of weeks due to being bored with your paticular build or even class, or the fact that someone has learned how to counter your current character
i have played this class based system and have yet to be bored of charater building in the past 2-1/2 years
in summation a class based system allows you to fully integrate a charcter into the game (you are not god stop trying to be) and actually be a part of it rahter than a god walking through it while a skill system allows more diversity look at what it takes away, playing eve i felt no affiliation to what or who my character was their was no loreplay or roleplay to it there was nothing that made it a character it was simply a list of cool skills, now im not a roleplayer but there is somthing to be said for having a character that fits into the story your trying to play in skill based systems allow us freedom yes but they remove the ability for a game to have an atmospher that draws us into them, this is why ive noticed skill based games seem to wear out faster than class based
if i pick up a fantasy rpg i want to be a paladin or a wizard not some combination of them both because it doesnt seem real (no other way to desrcibe it) the archetypes we associate with fantasy are what draw us in, now in a sci-fi game or games like the matrixstyle should be more skill based since there is no archtype to draw from but imho fantasy genre games should remain focused on class based systems of games like shadowbane (try out a 15 day trial to see what i mean if you havent played it)
I think you have to leave the class based mentality to understand a skill based system. You're just a race, learning magic doesn't make you a mage. You're still just a human, that knows how to magic. Having this knowledge isn't going to transform you into extra frail old man and magically prevent you from building muscle to pick up anything heavier than a staff. Likewise, choosing to gain some muscle isn't going to shrink your brain and make it impossible for you to learn to heal. But you'll probably be overloaded if you went ahead and tried to learn something else extra complicated like shipbuilding, and though you may be able to get a grasp on some of it's concepts you won't be able to do nearly as much as someone who chose to learn it from the start, or at the very least you'll start forgetting some of those finer points your old weapons trainer taught you.
I don't think people gravitate towards certain builds in skill-based systems anymore than they do in class based games. Healers and Support characters are always rare. In SWG, where you could only have one character per server there were still enough people choosing non-combat/high investment crafting professions that the market was always pretty much overstocked pre-NGE. Enough choosing seemingly useless professions like Entertainer that, personally, I didn't even want to ride past the cantinas if I didn't have to. I think the impact of people steering away from these things is actually felt more in class-based games since in a skill-based I don't need to look specifically for a priest, but for anyone that is able to heal proficiently. It could be that same human with a broadsword.
Skill system wins hands down. I wont pay $20 per month, or any amount for that matter. For a linear game that dies the minute you hit max level.
Only problem is that no one has done it better yet. UO was good except for the fact that you could heal yourself while fighting at the same time. A game ending problem for me.
Skill system is the only way to give you total choice and flexibility. And in a class system, even your items are picked for you. Oh sure you have to get them to drop, but every1 is going to be trying to get them anyway.
In class based games Level = Time. That is you need to spend more time to get a higher level.
Time = money. You spend money for a period of time in the game world.
Therefore Level is also equal to money. Level = money. The longer you play the better you are, the more you pay the better you are. Not the choices you make or the number of friends you make. I want a game where i need to think about the responses to my actions.
In my idea skill based game it would be made to create a game where you could create a way for each person to win if they put themselves in the right environment and used their skills to their advantage. Not im a mage so therefore i own a warrior.
Hello
I voted for skill points. I have played games with both types (wow ffxi and eve and a few others for short period of time) and now i find it alsmot diffucult to imagine myself going back to a class game. I want to be what ever i want to be, i have never meet a person in RL who i could classify in one word or a short sentence. I want my gamming exprence to be an evolving one. This is our fantasy world, where we can explore and do what we want, why would i want to be labeled in a game where i feel that all ppl do in RL is try to label you.
Skill based is not for every one and neither is a class based game. I think big devlopers like Blizard will mostly use class based , imho it has more broad based appeal. ALso there will allways be smaller companyies like ccp that will market there game to a nitch market. Two diffrent types of comapny's and to diffrent games. The real challenge would be to do a GOOD hybrid one where the game would guild you for a time and when you felt ready you can branch out. I have yet to see this , ffxi is a good example on how not to do it. when i played you could almost guess what a players sub would be bassed on the main class.
SOme ppl have posted that skill based games lead to all player pulling towrds one set of skills. I have yet to see this in eve. I am mostly a fighter, but in my corp we have minners, bulders, traders, and hybrids and diffrentypes of each. And this is in a small corp. With out all types of ppl in any game it is bound to fail and making all class or skills relevent is what marks a good dev team from a bad one. You can have unblanced games in any format , with any time of player style. I read alot more player complants on how this class needs to be nerfed or my class need some love ect ect on wow then i have seen on eve. Granted i have a some what limited expericne, and do not want to imply this is how it is in all games cuase i have no idea.
I guess my point in this post was. I play what i like and what keeps me interested, i hope you do as well.
peace be with you
Rev.
"The reason players will gravitate to a certain skill set is because those skills will work better than others in a combat situation. Those players who specialize in them will always win over players who took the lesser skills. This becomes an issue of game balance and can easily be cured by keeping a class or job system in place."
I read this and laughed my ass off. In a skill based system, this will only happen if developers are stupid enough to put few good skills in.
I voted skill system, because in a good system one would be able do do what they want...to a degree. There would also be a very wide range of getting things done, so one could pick the method that fits best, but that is decently obvious. Asherons call had a great skill system, one that now seems relatively lost, but great none the less. You could be a swordsman and still beat a sword weilding mage if you were smart enough to dodge the blasts and move in quick, like a smart warrior should, and kill him. Or you could counter as an archer doing the "archer dance", aka, dodging and jumping alot while shooting so as to not get hit...which ends up looking alot like a weird dance.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Bruce Lee, Kung Fu God; actor, acrobat, dancer, writer, script writer, director, philosopher, master of both armed and unarmed close combat, and teacher.
Lemmy, Rock & Roll God; musician, songwriter, historian, archivist, gambler, strongman, brawler, drinker, sex-machine, psychochemist and survivor.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, not a god but; doctor, writer, historian, detective/criminalist (practicsed the Dr Bell method), parapsychologist, winter sportsman (introduced skiing to Switzerland), whaler, bare-knuckle boxer, world traveller and served in the Boer War.
Howard Carter; Archaeologist, historian, mountaineer (once rappelled down a clif face to single handedly take on a gang of tomb robbers), and adventurer (the original two-fisted archaeologist, all he needs is a bullwhip).
Harry Houdini; escapologist, stage magician, world traveller, parapsychologist and international man of mystery.
None of them, however, are known for their black smithing... I have a few ideas how to enforce roleplaying within MMORPG's but unless someone's prepared to sign an agreement to pay me for them...
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
I think ideally I'd like a good mix of both, a system based on skills but with a class tree.
Personally my favorite class system to date has been MxO's, I thought it was extremely well done and had more then a passing resemblence to the original SWG system. What I liked most was that it added skill management to the equation, versatility and the ability to at least be somewhat unique, it also didn't leave you out in the cold if you decided to change your mind a few months down the road.
Let's face it, the biggest problem with a hardcore class system is that it's just way to stiffling.
If I play a character in a class system and let's say I want to be a... healer. So I start working my way up the ranks, let's just say that after a few months I get really bored of just healing, what if I'd like to do something else ? Well in a class system, you don't have choice, you can re-roll a new toon and that's pretty much it.
In the former SWG, the current MxO or even Saga of Ryzom, you can adapt to your own whim or even that of your guild and groups, you tell the game how you want to play, not the other way around. Then of course there's side bonuses to that, people get to know you much more, you don't have 5 alts going so friends and foes alike will actually get the chance to know you.
I really hope that extremely static class/skill systems like that of WoW and EQ2 will be a thing of the past at some point, but I'm sure there will always be a market for them, I'd just like to see some originality used to get these games concentrating on fun again, instead of setting arbitrary rules on me.
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Class systems are easier to implement then skill based systems, so... easier for the developer. To some extent it also adds ease to the community because you can look at a particular char and know their role in a group setting.
It is however, also incrediably boring after playing EQ and then WoW (which in my opinion will always be a EQ clone). Dev's would like us to think the class based system is tried tested and true....but its getting very old for those of us who don't call WoW our first mmo.
In every single game I've played that has wizards and warriors in it (regardless if its a skill or class based game) , wizards are superior in bringing the bad guys down. For this reason skill based systems are difficult because those that want the best skill sets will always start with best template. This makes it good for solo but difficult for group settings.
In the end I think the dev's of most games have chosen a class based system because its easier for them to define in their own minds and in the player's minds. Once they have this working frame of reference they can then build around it.
The problem is, each time dev's go with this type of structure in their games they are reusing the same old.
one of the biggest gripes ive heard towards class systems are that they are restrictive, in that if i get bored of said class i have to reroll and its not worth it
games like shadowbane tear down this problem with the simple fact that their are enough classes/race/discipline combos to fill almost any niche a player could or would want
and rerolling generally on takes a matter of days not months
i recently tried EVE and was disgusted that i would have to pay for agame for roughly 3-4 months before i would be able to effectively engage in PVP and it would take upwards of a year to be capable of piloting a carrier
now that is by far a much greater money grab than any class based system
games like shadowbane are based completely on PVP and most of this generally takes place at max levels, now max level is easily attainable within the span of a week and ive heard of people managing it within two days of hardcore leveling
this is where this game is meant to be played, in the end game, you dont become bored simply because you refine you character into as deadly a tool as possible, and in the event you do become bored of your archetype you simply spend a day or two rerolling
this is a pre view of the class sytem that shadowbane uses now the game is old so i wouldnt suggest those aside from hardcore gamers bother with the actual trial but the basic system works like this
base class - choosen from the standard archetypes fighter, mage, healr, rogue
- grants several very basic skill attributed to the achetypes at low power levels (1-40)
at level 10 promotion to your Profession (generally refered to as your class
- grants the bread and butter powers of your class grants weapons skills and abilities
- some powers are granted at high power levels others much lower for
- sword would come as a lvl 5 weapon powers while staff may come at lvl 40 on a mage
- some professions maybe based of of multiple different base classes (ex. mage assasins, rogue assasins two completely different entities using generally completely different combinations of those skills)
lvl 20 disiplines (generaly not obtained until around level 40 or so)
45 possible choices some not open to everyone due to race/class restrictions and balancing issues
add inherent abilities, powers and weapon skills
ex. Wyrmslayer, grants spear skill and spear mastery to just about any class does not grant weapon powers if that class is not one who generally uses spears
adds a cold Damage over Time to his weapon (if its a spear) and adds several resistance buffs to fire
huntsman adds spear, bow and polearms
so a system like this using enough combinations/ sub levels of archetypes and classes allows you to retain your indivduality as well as remian easyt o balance, identify and create significant game lore to suit the setting
in terms of player role playing their (oimho monstrocities) is that the lore is player created and lets face it generally not up to par of a well done games it also does not allow you to add some of the more interesting and unique abilites that can be added to class systems
the templar in shadow bane are hybrid fighters/casters they have HP some where betweena mage and a fighter and have some powerful spells that drain stamina and health from their opponents they also have one of the most interesting and "cool" powers ive seen Called "Wings of the Seraphim" it grants 75 point bonuses to 3 stats natural flight and an aweome "seraphim form" (see demonic type angel) now powers like this simply would not exsist in a skilll based MMO for the simpl reason everyone would have it any one who turned downa power buff like this would be stupid, however in a class system this can be balanced with health penalties etc
the templar of Sb is the Skill based archetype everyone wants to be the caster with a sword in HA who can heal them selves and look its in a class based system wtf
class based systems are the best sadly games like WoW and EQ2 have not put in the time effort or energy to make them complex enough to allow players "enough" freedom
hell my preist based char in SB has wyrmslayer and Darksworn
my priest is like this
Medium armour, large spear, maximum healing, a small health drain , stuns & Roots
now most people do not expect a healer to be able to kill them which helps two fold they dont expect it and they cry like little babies when it happens
i agree the class based systems of the past do not work, but i also agree time based skill systems dont either EVE is a money grab imho lots of cool things other mmos should look at but still just a time grabbing money scheme
the perfect mmo system needs
- to utilize a class system/skills system hybrid
- have 4 base classes archetypes
- as many possible professions/races as possible 12 races 14 classes is nice but more is needed
- allow sub professions such as Priest- healing priest, Dark priest, Apothecary (specializing poisons) and shaman types
adding more disiplines and making them all strong in their own rights
within each profession their needs to be skills that are given different scales some will obviously be restricted
a mage will seldom carry a warhammer not because he cant but because it will suck for him to bother using it
rather than restricting weapons simply just dont give them any perks if i were a templar why would i use anything except the flamind sword im able to use because im a templar why if that is granted cool abilities would i choose a a Hammer? that should be the choice not whetehr or not its blanked our red to me
a completely skill based system will be very plain and will not allow for extreme powers or abilities simply because it would be a balancing night mare and the release date for such a game would be far longer than anything weve seen
try taking 10 powers from say WoW now grant those two one character and do the same for another, now balance those two so that the winner will be different after each fight. good luck ill see you in a month or two
skill based game swill never and imho can't ever be balanced i was informed even in eve anything with a heavy Nos and a range exceeding 50 km is nearly god, well thats sounds balanced?
the freedom of a skill based system sounds great because who wants to turn down freedom but the truth is a well done multi-class system will always draw more long term appeal be cause it will be balanced and simple
freedom is good, anarchy is not
It is quite possible for Devs to create many good skills within a skill based system. The problem arises when the system allows the mixing and matching of any of those skills without restrictions. It does in fact lead to Min-maxing and FOTM builds.
This would not be a huge problem if it did not affect how the players handle game content; unfortunately it does. Where various skills can be balanced against one another in most situations, it is extremely difficult to balance against some combinations. Take the fastest lightest weapon coupled with massive enhancement buffs and the heaviest armor buffed with spells intended to increase a "mage" type's protection due to them usually wearing lighter armor, a shield, also buffed, and throw in the ability to heal, and root or stun an enemy if the game has such abilites. The result is a demi god who is able to solo nearly anything in the game.
With this type of "freedom" Devs are forced into a corner. Due to the ease with which monsters are dispatched by these uber-builds, do they skew the risk/reward ratio to reflect it? Do they simply create rediculously powerful creatures that only a group of min-maxers can tackle like making them immune to entire ranges of damage types and effects, etc, leaving the content beyond the reach of other players who did not choose to span several disciplines (for example, making something immune to nature damage and totally negating a "single disciplne" druid type)? Perhaps they just ignore the ubers and continue creating content along the same scale as before, eventually allowing the entire system to be flooded with high level loot, gold, and bored, unchallenged players.
Min-maxing also takes a toll on those Roleplayers who actually play within the intent of the multiclass/freeform skill system. Someone who dedicates themself to a certain skillset is going to be quite put off when a min-maxer becomes just as powerful as they at thier chosen discipline, especially when said discipline is picked up simply as a stepping stone on the way to Uberness rather than having any dedication to it.
Class based systems can mostly eliminate these sorts of problems. The Devs can create challenging content without having to worry about a Ranger using a Sorceror's Ice spells to lock down a boss type monster and kill it at range without ever taking a single point of damage. Paladins can't throw a damage shield on themselves and toss a Flame DoT and then just stand there and let the enemy kill themselves against the Paladin's shield.
The classes cannot be too strict, however, or players lose thier sense of individuality. The best system I can think of would be one of pseudo-class Affinity. At creation the player chooses an affinity for melee, missle, arcane magic, divine magic, or stealth. These affinities determine the skillpoint cost for abilities and skills. Skills which match the players affinity cost the base amount. Skills outside of the affinity cost much more than thier base. This allows full freedom of choice, but at the cost of possibly not Mastering a specific skill. You could master a couple of rogue abilities and also have a bit of fire casting ability to create diversions, etc., or you could sacrifice everything but Stealth and take more flame ability, setting fiery ambushes against your foes, essentially becoming a pyromaniac Assasin. You would never have the full bore nuking power of someone who is dedicated to Flame nor be a Master Thief, however. This type of system still needs to utilize caution as some combinations of skills can have unforseen results. A mediocre Flame skill coupled with a mastered stealth skill's sneak attack damage multiplier might end up more powerful than a fully mastered Flame Elementalists best flame spell, for example.
Should a developer decide to go with the strict class system, then I believe the best way to achieve balance is purely through rock-paper-scissors type content. No Rogue would ever be able to stand toe to toe with a single ogre, yet that Dragon at a stalemate with 6 warriors would fall to a single well placed Rogue's stealth attack from the shadows (while it is distracted by the warriors, of course).
No single game has implemented any of these sort of systems yet. The perfect solutions exist fragmented across various games, but noone except the players seem to have pieced them together.
Drev
"If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it."
-Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming
"In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I'd rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
-Raph Koster