Really I think this is not much of a debate. Skill based or class based meens little as long as the focus in MMORPGs stays on combat.
The reason why balancing issues arise are almost always combat related. Its even worst for PvP games. If the developers could find something other than combat to interest people then perhaps a skill based system could then be developed that people would use to make unique characters. Untill then, Skill or Class base both have the same problems.
Don't get me wrong I like conflict as much as the next guy/girl, but does every MMORPG have to revolve around killing things just to make level?
I think thing would be best with a class based system, but then have collectable powers and small bonuses nothing bigger but just enough to make a character collectable and a little more unique
I'd like to see a skill system, where the skills are limitted similarly to classes - for example, lets say you have a Heavy Armor skill, and a Fire Magic skill. You can raise either of them, but when you use Heavy Armor (by wearing platemail) you get various penalties to your magic skills, including an especially large penalty to Fire Magic, being such a robed caster type skill.
It'd be somewhat restrictive, to prevent tank-magery, but flexible, allowing players to feel less cookie cutter. Players could choose to specialize, avoiding penalties entirely, or create hybrids, by accepting penalties to some degree. To whatever ratios and combinations they want to try.
It might not be as easy to balance, but I'm not a big fan of balance, anyhow. These games are never perfectly balanced, I'd rather see character creation and development made more fun. Class systems are so boring, and ruin the feel of personal customization that I look for in creating MMORPG characters.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I voted for the skill system. Classes are, in my oppinion outdated, and it seems to me that mmorpgs that chose the class system sell themselves short by beeing outdated and abit unimagineable. The class systems revolve around the clover idea: 1 to take the damage, 1 to make the damage, and 1 to heal the damage, and then theres the rouge. So basically, all you have is 4 different options. Allso with the class system seems to come the aggro system, where tanks can make sure everything attacks them, also horribly outdated imo. I have played GW for awhile, and while you may argue that it isn't a mmorpg, its class/skill system is by far the most advanced and wellbalanced I have seen in a fatasy game. Other than that, the skill system found in EvE is also on of the most well thought and consistent systems around. In a traditional mmorpg, the EvE system would probably not work, but a mixture of EvE and GW would, in my oppinion, set the bar for future games.
The reason I don't like classes is that if I chose to be a wizard, there is absolutely only 1 way to play this wizard, boom boom bomm. If I chose a warrior type, agro, slash, agro, nothing new, and I won't have the ability to be innovative, as the skills I own only serve the purpose of my "box", and my "box" dictates how I should deal with the challenges I am presented with. This I find booring, and I feel that there is little difference between a boxed player character and a boxed AI npc.
Okay, here I come... Cygnus the god of balance is going to tell you guys how it is...
Obviously anyone writing for a RPG themed website is going to be well versed in RPG lore; having play hundreds of games and clocking in thousands of hours of gameplay. You two no doubt have played a wealth of RPGs that feature both of the two disputed character development method. Out of those hundreds of games not a one was deemed good or bad just because of the character development method was skill based or class based. What does make a bad game is bad design... What is poor design in character development? Most seasoned players would say imbalance and limited character customization options. I'm sure you both see eachother's side of the debate yet are amplifying your opinions to get a nice argument going in the forums hehe. And I'm sure both of you have played and enjoyed games of both kinds in the past. Personally, there are several games that come to mind from both systems that were fantastic bits-o-gamin'. A couple of gems IMHO were Bioware's Neverwinter Nights, featuring the tried and true Dungeons and Dragons class-based system (TSR) and Bethesda Soft's The Elderscrolls series (Arena,Daggerfall,Morrowind etc) which used a great skill based system! Offline single player games are under less pressure in the balance department because of inability to interact with other players in-game. Online games took a suprisingly long time to realize this *the original Everquest anyone?* *what exactly my incentive to play a Halfling Warrior again?* With the exception of SWG (a little jab there) most online RPGs have struck a pretty good balance of balance and character customization. Most are going with a class-based system off set with multiple skill 'trees' to offer variety within a single class and adding to that a kind of feat / talent / perk system to offer that additional variety between toons that players crave.
My personal favorite? ---> skill-based development Will I refuse to play a game because of being class-based? ---> NO Game I'd most like to see before I die? ---> Fallout online Would I move back to the USA to play Fallout online with a solid connection? ---> Yes, but only after Bush is out of office =P *Just kidding Mr.President... This forum post is being sent from over seas so it's most likely going to be monitored by NSA agents without a warrant and will show up on your desk by Thursday morning.
Hmmm.. I am a casual gamer and i find that both systems are needed but do not have to limit each system to the point that you feel "stuck" in your role.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I prefer a skilled-based system. The freedom to be able to make your avatar just about what ever you wish is very nice. "Yeah my warrior only can do a fireball for 5 points of damage but it's my choice."<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />
As for balance... This is a big issue because both gamers and developers have strayed long and far from their roots. Has anyone ever complained in the past when his or her thief died for attacking a warrior class in pen and paper RPG? NO. Why is that? Because you knew better and you chose to do so anyways.
Balance should come from the players skill to able to use the proper abilities with their avatar when needed then the abilities themselves. Now if you choose to continue fighting against an opponent that would naturally have the advantage of your then that is just plain silly of you.
Balance brings the problem of monotony to the game clothed in different apparel. Since we all want to be equal sort of say then alot of attributes and skills become generic across the board, as that is the only way the developers can please the mass. This in terms has dull down both the gamers and developers. " An ice spell does 6 damage a fire spell does 6 dam." This in essence is what has happened with the problem of having to balance out the game. If your skills has the same affect as another skill with a different name you dont have a choice people and this is sure not balanced.
Now that is not a call to make every single skill different but when going from game to game it is noticable that most of your skills and the skills of everyone else for that matter are doing the same thing and vary only in name... well you get my point.
Leveling is also another issue. A person should be able to measure their progress and control their progress in some other term other then DING "level whatever". The beauty of life is the ability to gauge your natural growth as time progress.
The current "drought" of imagination happening in MMO's now adays in terms of Medieval/Fantasy games is that they all feel pretty much the same. I group, i hunt, i level, rinse, repeat with the PVP thrown in to so call "spice things up"
Ive read about 6 pages of this thread so if i misspeak allow me an excuse.Heres my thots,oh and skill system all the way for now.
As far as balance and dynamics go,Balance is achieved when the ai CAN win and the only thing dynamic in most games are the players.There is nothin in the known universe that can or does show us true dynamic balance.Disagree?Enter the chaos theory.Order and balance always counter chaos and inequality.
The debate here can be made moot.The powers that be in any MMO dev team should stop looking to retool game after game for better balance.they are chasing a dream.Their time would be better spent i think creating a truly dynamic AI.That is NOT artificial Intelligence but rather ACTIVE INTELLIGENCE.Turn the ai into a tool for devs to play.Heres a scenario:Via swg
That ai rancor appears to be foraging and slips behind a hill,seeing the way clear, your party begins to ease out from hiding.Suddenly the rancor attacks for no known reason and attacks with great fiercness.Not just a melee attack but grabs a tree and and starts pounding the partys most aggroed peeps.Countering blows or moves,dodging,jumping,or even running away.
My point is this,The ai should be porous,dynamic,and server friendly.At anytime a dev or group of should be able to enter and play the part of any ai set character.Why??? To achieve any level of balance required.Sure you can beat that monster at level 60,but how do you fare against some real skill behind that ai rancor??The details can be figured out later im just the idea guy.
By altering the one forgotten part of gaming we could revolutionize it.Lets bring the real grandaddy cookie cutter of them all to this discussion.AI has always been there waiting for us to engage it.Its time we spent some money and had it engage us.
Skilltree or skillset??We need both.A skill set should be made necessary regardless of how protracted {in time} it may take to achieve.It should be minimalized to a prerequisite for whatever.Nuff said.
A skill tree then becomes necassary for growth,development,and individuality.Bring me the moon list{list of skills that reach moon}!!! At which point the very dynamic AI becomes the very nemesis we need,the very challenge to overcome,the very next best thing to hit gaming since the Atari 2600......I think thats the ai we still use slightly modified but basically.....................................
We have been having this discussion alot lately on the SWG forums. Having played UO, EQ, SWG, SB, and PS not mentioning the games I have beta tested I have seen all the systems. The best sytem is a hybrid of the two but the worst of all is the skill system. Instead of retyping it I will post my original discussion from the SWG forums.
REMEMBER NOBODY PAYS $10-20 A MONTH TO LOSE. SKILL SYSTEM WILL BECOME A MON CLASS SYSTEM THROUGH PLAYER MIN MAXING. ITS INEVITABLE.
My original post is in blue....
First off this is probably going to be long so I appologize. Secondly I am not here to rehash the NGE as in should or shouldnt it be nor am I here to brow beat the developers. This an upfront and hopefully intelligent discussion about the combat philosophy behind SWG (currently) and to a large degree why I think alot of people are missing the concept.
First off to understand what is we have to look at what was because what was frames our analysis for what is. In short what we experienced constructs the box that we will eventualy have to try and think outside of when what is changes to what was. In this case the what was was the Pre NGE or CU combat system. For all intents and purposes the meat of this system functioned exactly the same as the Pre CU combat system so I willl deal with them synonmosly.
During the Pre NGE combat system you based everything off of a statistical algorythem and your abilty to effect that statistical algorythem. This is demonstrated by the myriad of modifiers present in the CU system and the abilities that effected thos modifiers. However it also included assumed base values for that combat algorythem like the movement rate of a character, there hp level etc. These went beyond the class slection and formed the basis that the class modifiers then altered. First off this sort of character design/combat system is pretty typical of an MMORPG so typical in fact the average long term MMORPG player can disect this system in a matter of weeks. This speed analysis aided by a large and active community results in the alteration of the statitical combat algorythem to achieved certain inequitable situations. Thats a very complicated way of saying people learn the templates through a system of min max designing that inable them to gain the upper hand advantage in combat over characters that are not designed in such a manner or that there template is must more powerfull then there opponents. I used it already but his is best termed by that all incompasing term "min-maxing". Under this system it is really not a players gaming skill that is the focus to succeed it is there abilty to do mathmatical statistical analysis or piggy back (this is where Flavor of the month comes from) off of someone elses mathmatical statitical analysis. The fundamental reality of this system is that there will always be inequities between templates. In short in math there is always the greater than and less than factor and since this system is truly based on a mathmatical algorythem that is definently the case here.
Now one might say "but hey I chose my class cuase of the the powers". Powers in this system are little more than a way to effect some of the inputs of your or your opponents algorytem. For example a snare reduces there base movement, a buff increases your statistical might in some way, a nurf decreases your opponents statistical might. Thats all that effects do in this system.
This system as I stated encourages players to a group mentality to flock to the most powerfull template. Seriously why play a loser or ride the slow horse there is no way it can ever be as good as your opponent so you might as well move to a more successfull template. This creates uniformity in the system as the ineffecient templates are weeded out and it boils it down the most efficient statistical algorythem. This is what veteran players of SWG are used to this is how we look at things this is SWG, this is Shadowbane etc.
Now there is a completely different philosophy developed in games like Tribes. In so far as the statistical side of the character is competely non alterable by the player. This has been termed FPS but an FPS never has one set of statitics it usualy has a small variation. Take for example Planetside and its 3 basic infantry types; the light, the medium, and the heavy. In this system you would at first glance assume all players would function equaly in regards to success; i mean two mediums are completely equal it should end in a draw siteris paribis (aka all things being equal) if the environmental factor is neutral to both parties. Again this is not the case the coin rarely lands on its side. What has been found is that individuals function better in certain roles because for whatever reason they are more talented at it or it fits there playing style, or it was the base that character type that they became the most proficient at through repitition.
This style promotes diversity it actualy encourages the player to break away from any sort of "flavor of the month" by eliminating it and play something that fits more with the characters ambitions for the game or there personality. The players that do this inevitably show the most success as the game seems "easier" for them than someone who is not playing a character that suits there gaming style. This style is more akin to the combat style introduced by the NGE a faster paced combat but one that tried to achieve (still trying) a statistical equilibrium of sorts between the classes. The classes themsleves instead of being copies of each other (not all are complete yet) have different rolls that appeal to different gaming styles thus making people more proficient at one style or the other. Combine this with the loot ability and a fractional ability to modify the characters combat algorythem and you see a hybrid system. The hybrid system not only takes the players style into effect but it also takes there ability to gather equipment and use there powers. This is different from your typical FPS in which there is no difference in equipment or no way to buff ones self all fundamental values are pre set and unalterable.
The Hybrid also has the potential to make the class v class side of group combat more prevelant. So you see a rock, paper, scissors, effect ie Jedi are good against medics, medics are good against spies, spies are good against bh's, and bh's are good against jedi. The system overall is balanced but the indivdual classes might not be totaly neutral in comparison with one another. This however remains to be seen if this is the direction the NGE combat system is going.
Now why did I say SWG players are missing it? Simply put we are used to the CU combat system that has that min maxing concept so since the NGE alot of us hvae been uncomfortable in a world without our statistics. Where we cant simply by character creation and develop dictate the outcome of our encounters. This has also lead to the massive profession hopping seen in SWG right now. People respecing in mass to bh, then to medic, then to jedi, now people will probably respec to commando, and next half the server might be smugglers. THis is a result of using that old "min maxing" mentality people are still looking for the omipitent set of statitics that one trumping algorythem. This is the flaw and what i think prevents alot of people from experiencing the positive side of the FPS hybrid combat system it also prevents them to an extent from being successfull in that system. They dont play to there play style for whatever reason (maybe they dont know it yet, maybe they dont care, maybe they dont like the clothes of the class that fits there play style closest, whatevere) and it cauess this constant leap frogging and discontent.
I think alot of the issues right now with the classes has to do with A) them being incomplete (commando pre pub 27 not done, smugglers not even close etc) and players are to aclimatized to the old mathmatical statisical system and have not come to terms with the philosophy behind the new combat system (new to SWG not new to gaming).
Again I ask that this be a serious discussion and not an pro vs con nge flame fest. Thanks!
I think a class system is better because it makes the game more balanced. Err, only if the devs make all the classes balanced and not have one class dominate PvP and PvE. A class system can help balance a game because in a skill system if one skill set is dominate, everyone will defect to that set. While in a class system, each class a specific function and it more flexible to group and can ofer a wide range of playing options.
Originally posted by salazar3643 I think a class system is better because it makes the game more balanced. Err, only if the devs make all the classes balanced and not have one class dominate PvP and PvE. A class system can help balance a game because in a skill system if one skill set is dominate, everyone will defect to that set. While in a class system, each class a specific function and it more flexible to group and can ofer a wide range of playing options.
Yes, valid point, but in a skill based game the exact same thing could be done..
The difference is that in a skill game your character isnt named HEALER just because your duty is to heal your team members, instead you decide amongst the group who does what, but since your not restricted to just the one class you can actually do more then heal when your healing is not always needed, adding more depth and freedom to your duty..
I think that the skillbased game is more for the player who can make up his own mind of what he wants to do and how, while class based games are made for those who want their duty simplified, dont want the hassle just the play..
BUT!! however.. in a class based game, pvp between the same classes is more skill requiring then in a skill based game.. in a way atleast, because then its your reflexes and ability to truly know what to do at the time that determine the outcome.. while in a skillbased game.. its mostly which templated is suited for what.. but the same aplies here.. but now you need the ability to determine what skills are nesescary to be as effective as possible.. not just twitch..
All in all, Skill based games require more skill then the class based games.. which is good, because dumbed down games are annoyingly repetetive
Garrett Fuller: The reason players will gravitate to a certain skill set is because those skills will work better than others in a combat situation. Those players who specialize in them will always win over players who took the lesser skills.
That's the best argument I can think of FOR a skill based system.
If your game is based solely on combat, and specifically on generic combat, then yes... everyone has to play a cookie-cutter build to min/max their combat abilities, or they end up losing more often than not. However, the two things I'd like to point out here are:
1 - A system designed like that is broken. Any game that works on such a simple level won't hold my attention past the first month, and more often not past the free trial or beta. If I'm going to fork out $50 and then continue forking out $15/month, I want to keep being surprised and amazed for a good 6 months. I'd like to NOT feel that I know everything there is to know until a year has passed.
To elaborate... even if you omit non-combat skills (which you shouldn't... the best swordsman in the world can be killed by wave after wave of hired assassins, sent by the person who trained up trade skills and has criminal connections), there should be different types of combat that play into different areas of strength and weakness. If you dump all your focus into shooting a bow, you should be able to pick off people from a hilltop before they even see you -- but if someone trained in brawling catches you, you're done.
2 - Player Skill ALWAYS trumps in-game mechanics. No matter how many uber-swords of D00M, or how high you've trained Advance Light Sabre Twirling... the player who can out think you, or even just out-twitch you is going to win. The World of Roguecraft video demonstrates this nicely.
The only danger in building a skill-oriented system is to make it too easy for players to obtain incompatible skills. Many text muds threw out the class system and went pure skill, and in far too many of those games, everyone just learned every skill and thus destroyed the need for grouping. The better games made some skills totally incompatible with others, or at the very least, made it extremely difficult and costly to learn both.
EVE-Online does a nice job by making skills real-time. You really can learn every skill in the game... but it will take you something like 10 years to do so. OTOH, you can learn the basics of many things, and choose to specialize in just a few -- and be really good at what you've chosen in a couple of months.
I used to believe that classes were necessary too. I started designing a game with sub-classes and single trainers that offered unique skills only to purists... and then I realized that I was really just making a skill based system with the word "class" meaning "collection of skills". Your "level" was really the physical strength of your character plus the number of skills you learned recently.
So, instead of advancing a class through levels, and getting various skills handed to me... I prefer to spend experience to improve my stats and learn skills. They both work the same way, but I don't have to waste my time learning Froboz's Mighty Midgetizer Ray, Gnorfel's Giggling Gangrene, and FooFoo's Fancy Feast... when the only mage-type spell my stealth-oriented barehanded fighter with some survival and tracking skills wants to know is Invisibility.
I prefer skill systems, I played Asheron's Call for 5 years before the graphics became out dated. There was nothink wrong with the actual game. I'm still waiting for a game with the same dynamic skill set.
Spell research, complete choose over your skill template, toward the end you got crafting and houses. The ability to link to portals so you could travel instantly back to your favourite hunting spot. Also the multipule damage types meaning you had to pick and choose your armour, protections and weapons. Dyes that actually made a difference to your armour colour and not just slightly change the tint in one place. Plus the etremely large playing area and huge amount of quests.
But basically it was the skill template choose that made the game, and you didnt get just one type of character. But a large range of different people that all added and required to a group experience.
I prefer a skill system because you have absolute freedom in what you want to be (anything and/or everything). take Eve for example. you have about 400 skills to choose from, some nessescary, some not so much so, but you can pick what you want to train, and you're not limited by ANYTHING at all, except what ship you have (possibly). one thing the eve devs did is make some sort of use for every skill. i guarantee someone will find a use for any eve skill, even though it might SEEM useless.
class systems are overrated Theyre too restricting. its okay for some games because thats what they are based upon, but if youre looking for freedom of choice, these are not in your best interests. (games like WoW and Anarchy, both of which are good games until you get
to the highest level you can be, then its boring)
and i will do something very, very evil if anyone flames me for using Eve as an example.
yes, I am an eve fanboy, in the best sense of the word.
Comments
Really I think this is not much of a debate. Skill based or class based meens little as long as the focus in MMORPGs stays on combat.
The reason why balancing issues arise are almost always combat related. Its even worst for PvP games. If the developers could find something other than combat to interest people then perhaps a skill based system could then be developed that people would use to make unique characters. Untill then, Skill or Class base both have the same problems.
Don't get me wrong I like conflict as much as the next guy/girl, but does every MMORPG have to revolve around killing things just to make level?
Woops.... Did I do that?
I think thing would be best with a class based system, but then have collectable powers and small bonuses nothing bigger but just enough to make a character collectable and a little more unique
I'd like to see a skill system, where the skills are limitted similarly to classes - for example, lets say you have a Heavy Armor skill, and a Fire Magic skill. You can raise either of them, but when you use Heavy Armor (by wearing platemail) you get various penalties to your magic skills, including an especially large penalty to Fire Magic, being such a robed caster type skill.
It'd be somewhat restrictive, to prevent tank-magery, but flexible, allowing players to feel less cookie cutter.
Players could choose to specialize, avoiding penalties entirely, or create hybrids, by accepting penalties to some degree. To whatever ratios and combinations they want to try.
It might not be as easy to balance, but I'm not a big fan of balance, anyhow. These games are never perfectly balanced, I'd rather see character creation and development made more fun. Class systems are so boring, and ruin the feel of personal customization that I look for in creating MMORPG characters.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I voted for the skill system. Classes are, in my oppinion outdated, and it seems to me that mmorpgs that chose the class system sell themselves short by beeing outdated and abit unimagineable. The class systems revolve around the clover idea: 1 to take the damage, 1 to make the damage, and 1 to heal the damage, and then theres the rouge. So basically, all you have is 4 different options. Allso with the class system seems to come the aggro system, where tanks can make sure everything attacks them, also horribly outdated imo. I have played GW for awhile, and while you may argue that it isn't a mmorpg, its class/skill system is by far the most advanced and wellbalanced I have seen in a fatasy game. Other than that, the skill system found in EvE is also on of the most well thought and consistent systems around. In a traditional mmorpg, the EvE system would probably not work, but a mixture of EvE and GW would, in my oppinion, set the bar for future games.
The reason I don't like classes is that if I chose to be a wizard, there is absolutely only 1 way to play this wizard, boom boom bomm. If I chose a warrior type, agro, slash, agro, nothing new, and I won't have the ability to be innovative, as the skills I own only serve the purpose of my "box", and my "box" dictates how I should deal with the challenges I am presented with. This I find booring, and I feel that there is little difference between a boxed player character and a boxed AI npc.
hope any of the above made any sense -Ioee
Okay, here I come... Cygnus the god of balance is going to tell you guys how it is...
Obviously anyone writing for a RPG themed website is going to be well versed in RPG lore; having play hundreds of games and clocking in thousands of hours of gameplay. You two no doubt have played a wealth of RPGs that feature both of the two disputed character development method.
Out of those hundreds of games not a one was deemed good or bad just because of the character development method was skill based or class based. What does make a bad game is bad design...
What is poor design in character development? Most seasoned players would say imbalance and limited character customization options.
I'm sure you both see eachother's side of the debate yet are amplifying your opinions to get a nice argument going in the forums hehe. And I'm sure both of you have played and enjoyed games of both kinds in the past.
Personally, there are several games that come to mind from both systems that were fantastic bits-o-gamin'. A couple of gems IMHO were Bioware's Neverwinter Nights, featuring the tried and true Dungeons and Dragons class-based system (TSR) and Bethesda Soft's The Elderscrolls series (Arena,Daggerfall,Morrowind etc) which used a great skill based system!
Offline single player games are under less pressure in the balance department because of inability to interact with other players in-game.
Online games took a suprisingly long time to realize this *the original Everquest anyone?* *what exactly my incentive to play a Halfling Warrior again?*
With the exception of SWG (a little jab there) most online RPGs have struck a pretty good balance of balance and character customization. Most are going with a class-based system off set with multiple skill 'trees' to offer variety within a single class and adding to that a kind of feat / talent / perk system to offer that additional variety between toons that players crave.
My personal favorite? ---> skill-based development
Will I refuse to play a game because of being class-based? ---> NO
Game I'd most like to see before I die? ---> Fallout online
Would I move back to the USA to play Fallout online with a solid connection? ---> Yes, but only after Bush is out of office =P *Just kidding Mr.President... This forum post is being sent from over seas so it's most likely going to be monitored by NSA agents without a warrant and will show up on your desk by Thursday morning.
Hmmm.. I am a casual gamer and i find that both systems are needed but do not have to limit each system to the point that you feel "stuck" in your role.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I prefer a skilled-based system. The freedom to be able to make your avatar just about what ever you wish is very nice. "Yeah my warrior only can do a fireball for 5 points of damage but it's my choice."<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />
As for balance... This is a big issue because both gamers and developers have strayed long and far from their roots. Has anyone ever complained in the past when his or her thief died for attacking a warrior class in pen and paper RPG? NO. Why is that? Because you knew better and you chose to do so anyways.
Balance should come from the players skill to able to use the proper abilities with their avatar when needed then the abilities themselves. Now if you choose to continue fighting against an opponent that would naturally have the advantage of your then that is just plain silly of you.
Balance brings the problem of monotony to the game clothed in different apparel. Since we all want to be equal sort of say then alot of attributes and skills become generic across the board, as that is the only way the developers can please the mass. This in terms has dull down both the gamers and developers. " An ice spell does 6 damage a fire spell does 6 dam." This in essence is what has happened with the problem of having to balance out the game. If your skills has the same affect as another skill with a different name you dont have a choice people and this is sure not balanced.
Now that is not a call to make every single skill different but when going from game to game it is noticable that most of your skills and the skills of everyone else for that matter are doing the same thing and vary only in name... well you get my point.
Leveling is also another issue. A person should be able to measure their progress and control their progress in some other term other then DING "level whatever". The beauty of life is the ability to gauge your natural growth as time progress.
The current "drought" of imagination happening in MMO's now adays in terms of Medieval/Fantasy games is that they all feel pretty much the same. I group, i hunt, i level, rinse, repeat with the PVP thrown in to so call "spice things up"
Faranthil Tanathalos
EverQuest 1 - Ranger
Star Wars Galaxies - Master Ranger
Everquest2 - Ranger WarhammerOnline - Shadow Warrior
WOW - Hunter
That's right I like bows and arrows.
Hello
Ive read about 6 pages of this thread so if i misspeak allow me an excuse.Heres my thots,oh and skill system all the way for now.
As far as balance and dynamics go,Balance is achieved when the ai CAN win and the only thing dynamic in most games are the players.There is nothin in the known universe that can or does show us true dynamic balance.Disagree?Enter the chaos theory.Order and balance always counter chaos and inequality.
The debate here can be made moot.The powers that be in any MMO dev team should stop looking to retool game after game for better balance.they are chasing a dream.Their time would be better spent i think creating a truly dynamic AI.That is NOT artificial Intelligence but rather ACTIVE INTELLIGENCE.Turn the ai into a tool for devs to play.Heres a scenario:Via swg
That ai rancor appears to be foraging and slips behind a hill,seeing the way clear, your party begins to ease out from hiding.Suddenly the rancor attacks for no known reason and attacks with great fiercness.Not just a melee attack but grabs a tree and and starts pounding the partys most aggroed peeps.Countering blows or moves,dodging,jumping,or even running away.
My point is this,The ai should be porous,dynamic,and server friendly.At anytime a dev or group of should be able to enter and play the part of any ai set character.Why??? To achieve any level of balance required.Sure you can beat that monster at level 60,but how do you fare against some real skill behind that ai rancor??The details can be figured out later im just the idea guy.
By altering the one forgotten part of gaming we could revolutionize it.Lets bring the real grandaddy cookie cutter of them all to this discussion.AI has always been there waiting for us to engage it.Its time we spent some money and had it engage us.
Skilltree or skillset??We need both.A skill set should be made necessary regardless of how protracted {in time} it may take to achieve.It should be minimalized to a prerequisite for whatever.Nuff said.
A skill tree then becomes necassary for growth,development,and individuality.Bring me the moon list{list of skills that reach moon}!!! At which point the very dynamic AI becomes the very nemesis we need,the very challenge to overcome,the very next best thing to hit gaming since the Atari 2600......I think thats the ai we still use slightly modified but basically.....................................
Totalus
We have been having this discussion alot lately on the SWG forums. Having played UO, EQ, SWG, SB, and PS not mentioning the games I have beta tested I have seen all the systems. The best sytem is a hybrid of the two but the worst of all is the skill system. Instead of retyping it I will post my original discussion from the SWG forums.
REMEMBER NOBODY PAYS $10-20 A MONTH TO LOSE. SKILL SYSTEM WILL BECOME A MON CLASS SYSTEM THROUGH PLAYER MIN MAXING. ITS INEVITABLE.
My original post is in blue....
Yes, valid point, but in a skill based game the exact same thing could be done..
The difference is that in a skill game your character isnt named HEALER just because your duty is to heal your team members, instead you decide amongst the group who does what, but since your not restricted to just the one class you can actually do more then heal when your healing is not always needed, adding more depth and freedom to your duty..
I think that the skillbased game is more for the player who can make up his own mind of what he wants to do and how, while class based games are made for those who want their duty simplified, dont want the hassle just the play..
BUT!! however.. in a class based game, pvp between the same classes is more skill requiring then in a skill based game.. in a way atleast, because then its your reflexes and ability to truly know what to do at the time that determine the outcome..
while in a skillbased game.. its mostly which templated is suited for what.. but the same aplies here.. but now you need the ability to determine what skills are nesescary to be as effective as possible.. not just twitch..
All in all, Skill based games require more skill then the class based games.. which is good, because dumbed down games are
annoyingly repetetive 
Garrett Fuller: The reason players will gravitate to a certain skill set is because those skills will work better than others in a combat situation. Those players who specialize in them will always win over players who took the lesser skills.
That's the best argument I can think of FOR a skill based system.
If your game is based solely on combat, and specifically on generic combat, then yes... everyone has to play a cookie-cutter build to min/max their combat abilities, or they end up losing more often than not. However, the two things I'd like to point out here are:
1 - A system designed like that is broken. Any game that works on such a simple level won't hold my attention past the first month, and more often not past the free trial or beta. If I'm going to fork out $50 and then continue forking out $15/month, I want to keep being surprised and amazed for a good 6 months. I'd like to NOT feel that I know everything there is to know until a year has passed.
To elaborate... even if you omit non-combat skills (which you shouldn't... the best swordsman in the world can be killed by wave after wave of hired assassins, sent by the person who trained up trade skills and has criminal connections), there should be different types of combat that play into different areas of strength and weakness. If you dump all your focus into shooting a bow, you should be able to pick off people from a hilltop before they even see you -- but if someone trained in brawling catches you, you're done.
2 - Player Skill ALWAYS trumps in-game mechanics. No matter how many uber-swords of D00M, or how high you've trained Advance Light Sabre Twirling... the player who can out think you, or even just out-twitch you is going to win. The World of Roguecraft video demonstrates this nicely.
The only danger in building a skill-oriented system is to make it too easy for players to obtain incompatible skills. Many text muds threw out the class system and went pure skill, and in far too many of those games, everyone just learned every skill and thus destroyed the need for grouping. The better games made some skills totally incompatible with others, or at the very least, made it extremely difficult and costly to learn both.
EVE-Online does a nice job by making skills real-time. You really can learn every skill in the game... but it will take you something like 10 years to do so. OTOH, you can learn the basics of many things, and choose to specialize in just a few -- and be really good at what you've chosen in a couple of months.
I used to believe that classes were necessary too. I started designing a game with sub-classes and single trainers that offered unique skills only to purists... and then I realized that I was really just making a skill based system with the word "class" meaning "collection of skills". Your "level" was really the physical strength of your character plus the number of skills you learned recently.
So, instead of advancing a class through levels, and getting various skills handed to me... I prefer to spend experience to improve my stats and learn skills. They both work the same way, but I don't have to waste my time learning Froboz's Mighty Midgetizer Ray, Gnorfel's Giggling Gangrene, and FooFoo's Fancy Feast... when the only mage-type spell my stealth-oriented barehanded fighter with some survival and tracking skills wants to know is Invisibility.
I prefer skill systems, I played Asheron's Call for 5 years before the graphics became out dated. There was nothink wrong with the actual game. I'm still waiting for a game with the same dynamic skill set.
Spell research, complete choose over your skill template, toward the end you got crafting and houses. The ability to link to portals so you could travel instantly back to your favourite hunting spot. Also the multipule damage types meaning you had to pick and choose your armour, protections and weapons. Dyes that actually made a difference to your armour colour and not just slightly change the tint in one place. Plus the etremely large playing area and huge amount of quests.
But basically it was the skill template choose that made the game, and you didnt get just one type of character. But a large range of different people that all added and required to a group experience.
I prefer a skill system because you have absolute freedom in what you want to be (anything and/or everything). take Eve for example. you have about 400 skills to choose from, some nessescary, some not so much so, but you can pick what you want to train, and you're not limited by ANYTHING at all, except what ship you have (possibly). one thing the eve devs did is make some sort of use for every skill. i guarantee someone will find a use for any eve skill, even though it might SEEM useless.
class systems are overrated
Theyre too restricting. its okay for some games because thats what they are based upon, but if youre looking for freedom of choice, these are not in your best interests. (games like WoW and Anarchy, both of which are good games until you get
to the highest level you can be, then its boring)
and i will do something very, very evil if anyone flames me for using Eve as an example.
yes, I am an eve fanboy, in the best sense of the word.