I was excited about SWG's skill system when they developed it, but what happened has been mentioned, everyone was part creature handler. Which made every a pet class that you can add rifle skills or melee skills so you were the proverbial tank mage. And smuggler was a joke and still is but thats another topic.
I think there can be a balance of class and skill.
Look at D&D D20, the pen and paper version at least. There you pick a class, but there is a skill system in place where you can be a fighter who crafts or tumbles. The feat system diversifies the classes further. You can take a fighter and make him all about 2 weapon fighting, or you can be a weapons master or you can be an archer or you can be a nimble sword fighter. Dual classing broadens the characher but not rediculously so. You become hybrid so you are not the best fighter or the best mage, but you can be a fighter mage.
City of heroes has a class system, but there are many power sets within each class to mix it up. A claws scrapper who regens or a broadsword scrapper who has swift reflexes. Electrical blaster who drains endurance or a fire blaster who damages an area over time.
Choice is great with in the confines of a class. Dual classing or subjobs can add to the diversity as well. You can't leave it wide open and you cant limit it too much.
-Netherbeast
Give a man fire and he''s warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he''s warm the rest of his life.
A completly open skill system, that does not have any one uber skill that everyone needs, and does not give poeple with way too much time on there hands to play a MMORPG a huge advantage is definatly the best.
BUT IT DOES NOT EXHIST.
At least I dont think it does. All but one of the games I have played are a class based system with a subset of skills attached to them. So far the skill system is just a big mess as far as I can see. Something I don't think most people get is the idea of a game is not to give you everything you want. Well at least it did not use to be. I think too many of you are used to punching in the "cheat" codes and going into GOD mode.
LEVEL ONE IS MORE FUN THEN LEVEL 100
Every one is wants to be end game level. However what got you adicted to the game sure in the heck was not level 50 or 60 or 70. It was how the game played at level 1 or 10 or maybe 20. I think most players will stick arround just to see if the game gets better, but If the game just is not fun at level 1 then it will never totally take over your life like a good MMORPG should ) . At low levels you definately can not be master of all so you are forced to work on a few select ones untill you have maxed them out and can go for some of skills that make you uber, but you don't use all that often. And yet this is when players get hooked on the game not when they can solo without fear at level 100.
I prefer skill-based systems but i think the skills should be contained in classes, like Star Wars Galaxies had or Ryzom has. I played played some skill-bases systems (SWG and Ryzom actually) and i did not have the feeling that everyone used the same template.
I myself select the skills i like and i do not care about wether they are the best or worst.
What i dont like is a class-based system where you learn the skills at a specific level and cannot choose what to learn, like Everquest 2 - not sure if it changed since end of closed beta - and SWG has now.
While both systems have there PRO's and CON's, I'd have to say that I like the skill based system the best. I do like having a class to help me be a part of the community, but I like the endless possibilities that games like EVE offer. I tried almost every class in WoW but lost interest after 6 months. Being stuck in a skill set limited my enjoyment of the game and my time spent playing it. I hope to see more hybrid games in the future, with both a class and skill choice system.
Originally posted by Arthor Can you show me a Game that has been out for 6 months that has a skill based system that a majority of people aren't playing with basically the same skill set? Every skill based game I know about UO, AC1, SWG, etc. Always ends up with a uber combat template. That if you are like me and you don't follow and you end up leveling way slower or end up being PvP fodder. I'd like a skill bases system, I have just never seen a balanced skilled based system. So if you can find one I'll consider it, until then give me a balanced game with classes. If the game is not balanced it's just not fun to play.
Arthor
EVE Online.
There is no one "win" skillset in game. In fact, I highly doubt that any two players have the exact same skillset, despite the 100,000 subscribers; this is because there are literally hundreds of skills in game, all with distinct and unique applications, and anyone can learn any skill given enough time. Furthermore, there are five levels of every skill, and it takes an increasing amount of time to train the skill as the level climbs higher. Also, some skills have other skills as prerequisites.
I'm in the same boat with the person who posted earlier in stating that I can't think of any way that the EVE skill system could get better - it seems to be perfectly adapted for the game as-is.
-Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Originally posted by karpoa What can I say, WAS a SWG player for two years, since I first spoted it on the shelf in a shop here in the UK, December 2005 I think it was. Since NGE been playing Eve and Everquest2(think that is a class system),'don't quote me though'. So my vote goes with the Skill System.
SWG was the best game I'd ever played Pre-CU. After CU, it went down hill to the steaming pile it is today. Their skill system was the best I've ever seen ... It's a damn shame they ruined that game. =(
There should be no levels or classes at all, only skills. Period. End of Story.
Technically speaking, I prefer a skills based system over a class based system, and so do most other people after looking at the poll results. However....
The comparison of Skill vs Class systems from the DEV side needs to be looked at in harmony with player needs and desires. I can understand why devs want to use class based systems.. it is MUCH faster to develop whole systems using classes. Period. Balance issues can be roughed in in a fraction of the time of a skills based system. Roles can be set in stone and communities forced to be diversified. Etc.
The problem here is BOTH the fact that players want more freedom to choose and tweak, AND in the fact that as the game matures inherent imbalances reveal themselves in class distinctions that are almost impossible to correct after a few iterations. Nerf this, Power Up that, introduce new ability here, remove ability there, limit, expand, etc etc.....it becomes incredibly silly. For anyone who plays(ed) DAoC for the first 3 years they will understand this point extremely well. Also, class based system combined with grind XP systems give rise to Flavor Of The Month character classes: as a new 'Uber' skill set combination is revealed, then all the twinkies flock to that class and template. Originally in DAoC, for example, you had Smite Clerics being incredibly Uber, and then they nerfed Smite. Very shortly afterward you saw a systemwide reduction in clerics unrivalled by any Plague invented by Nature or Man! You could hardly find a cleric at all, and those clerics who decided to spec in healing were chuckled at.. what very few there were.
City of Heroes has similar problems.. but to get into that with every class game out there would take up too much space.. point being, it is the other edge of the sword that IS Class Based Characters.
Skills based systems are superior IF THEY ARE DESIGNED WELL AND ARE COMPREHENSIBLE. Trying to make things too complex inevitably creates learning shock for new players who feel completely lost in a sea of possibility, and find they cannot make choices they feel are relevant to the game's dynamic. EvE is a good example of that, as a beginning player has a lot of choices, and seemingly logical paths, but until you -really- know the system and what modules are important, and what secondary skills are important, and what ships you are going to fly... you are talking about a year or more before you become competant enough to hold your own in 0.0. Sure, you can throw caution to the wind, but you won't be effective in a small group, nor will you be able to earn money at a reasonable rate. Yes, I am in an Alliance, and am in 0.0, and have double digit million SPs, for those EvE heads out there :-)
Skill based systems have the disadvantage that you have to balance out all skills against all skills, which is a lot more to think about than 10 classes. Also, you have to work out exactly what happens at each plateau, how SPs affect various items, the environment, money accurual, etc. It gets very complicated very quickly. BUT, if done correctly a skills based system is transparent, and it is simplicity itself to introduce new skills, new skill classes, new skill templates, etc, in harmony with the natural maturity of the game. Whole new races with new skill sets can be introduced without worrying about Global Balance issues. Whole new technologies/magics/etc can be introduced at a whim, since if you are intriducing one skill all you have to do is balance one thing against the universe, not an entire special entity. So, skill systems are front loaded in dev, but on the back end they yield better fruit.
What do I think the ideal system is? A Hybrid. The real question is: How to Hybridize these two seemingly disparate worlds of thought? Im guessing that is a topic for another discussion.
EVE Online. There is no one "win" skillset in game. In fact, I highly doubt that any two players have the exact same skillset, despite the 100,000 subscribers; this is because there are literally hundreds of skills in game, all with distinct and unique applications, and anyone can learn any skill given enough time.
This is not strictly speaking, true. EVE was designed so that it would be impossible to learn every skill in game, ever, for any character, while at the same time making it possible for people who ultra specialized to become competant relatively quickly. (aka, mining ONLY, trading ONLY, Gallente Frigates ONLY, etc) This is how they created the detente against the 'everyone has teh same skillz' problem inherent in some skills based systems that are too easy to level, and other systems which placed too much emphasis on combat.
I think the downfall of most mmorpgs is the fact that they do have a class system. With a class system this tells me that I am going to be exactly like everyone else in my class and that is lame. The only truely big success with this concept is WoW and that is because of the huge Blizzard following, excellent solid smooth gameplay and graphics. I feel that a skill system that is identical to the original Ultima Online 1998ish, is the absolute best. In fact I feel that if the exact same ruleset was kept in all aspects of the original UO blended with an outstanding graphics engine you would have the next biggest and baddest mmorpg out there. I feel that freedom in character creation is a must. Almost everyone I talk to in WoW and on another game in development board feels that UO is the true pioneer and by far was the best mmorpg ever before ea ruined it. Why can't dev's get it together and stick to the basics?
Originally posted by Cothor I think the downfall of most mmorpgs is the fact that they do have a class system. With a class system this tells me that I am going to be exactly like everyone else in my class and that is lame. The only truely big success with this concept is WoW and that is because of the huge Blizzard following, excellent solid smooth gameplay and graphics. I feel that a skill system that is identical to the original Ultima Online 1998ish, is the absolute best. In fact I feel that if the exact same ruleset was kept in all aspects of the original UO blended with an outstanding graphics engine you would have the next biggest and baddest mmorpg out there. I feel that freedom in character creation is a must. Almost everyone I talk to in WoW and on another game in development board feels that UO is the true pioneer and by far was the best mmorpg ever before ea ruined it. Why can't dev's get it together and stick to the basics?
Yep some of the player run shards far surpassed the content in even the newest mmo's with unique items, rare items. Special encounters pvp instances, fantastic questing, treasure hunting etc etc etc. multy race/creature based characters there were servers where you could be a dragon a zombie etc etc and each had unique skillsets. It was and still is incredible what the player run shards have done with the base code of Ultima Online. Course not many can stand the graphics anymore and since there player run they often dont last all that long. But it shows what UO could have been if EA hadnt have taken over and screwed it into a hole in the ground.
Hell the first time I ever saw armor with slots was on a player run shard. And magical crafting you could ibue items etc.
I quite enjoyed this debate and a few replies. Skill based systems have proven to provide a balance in one area, that somehow I didn't notice mentioned in the debate. Soloists! Not everyone likes to play in groups. I myself, prefer to keep the groups small and more personal. I work hard all day long and last thing I want to do is hang around trying to put together a team and then try to get that team functioning as a team.
With a skill based, like the Old Galaxies, I could hang out with 2-5 people, not overlag things, get just as many tasks in the same amount of time, and still be able to chat and get to know the one's I team with.
In City of Heroes, without the skill based, it's just invite and group. All you need is to look for the right combo, try to jam to the mission waypoints then lag with all the eye candy and the "individualistic" adaptations, get the task done and jam on to the next. Very little conversation, very little personalization....
As far as the comments regarding people taking character sets that work for them, in CoH I have one of each, and can function quite well in all as long as I stick to the "rules" of what they can and cannot do. Tanks can heal, and Controllers can pull, etc.... Once I try to work "outside the box" guaranteed I am looking at some serious XP debt.
With Galaxies, I had the same character, re-wrote a few skills, but never strayed far from the original idea of what I wanted to do. It was nice, it was comfortable. I couldn't solo Rancors, but it's ok, thanks to the personal contacts I created as a result of how the Skill system was, if I needed or wanted to, I could join in with others that could have easily soloed a whole lairs worth.
Sadly though, many developers hear only from the bored and discontents and think they are pleasing the whole, when in fact, those happiest are to busy to whine about loot, insignificant bugs, extreme lag or lacking content, such as Jedis. If only they have not setup those macros and leveled afk.
Originally posted by axlezero Originally posted by Flatfingers Let's look at that first assumption, that all MMORPGs are supposed to be about character growth. Says who? This belief that what players really want is to spend their time trying to level up a character to be the "best" distorts nearly every aspect of gameplay. Instead of being able to enjoy the game world and the activities therein from the moment you start playing, you're made to feel that your character is incomplete, that you're not as good as you should be, and that you won't be effective until you max out your character. MMO's are about character growth, that doesn't mean levels it means advancement. A game that progresses nowhere isn't a game whats the challenge in killing a big monster that a newb can kill from the get go, a game has to have challenge.
I'd like to see a game that puts the focus on advancement through a story before ability. I don't play MMOs because I like to grind out levels, I play them because I like to escape into virtual fantasy worlds. I sort of enjoy the current incarnation of SWG at the earliest levels. The tutorial stage actually feels like you're part of a story until you start doing typically random errand-style quests for denizens of the space station. By the time you get to Tatooine you're right back to "go to waypoint, defeat X# of mobs, return to contact for reward". I'm more interested in getting different styles of clothing for my character than I am in finding Pants of Uberness +11. I want to move through storylines like you'd find in a single player RPG, but I want the multiplayer experience of an MMO.
Could be I just need Neverwinter Nights 2 to hit and get myself into a persistent world somewhere, and just give up on the idea that any MMO will ever be more than a grind.
Personally, I liked the skill system in Asheron's Call 1. In every other mmo i've played, i feel like a cookiecutter char.
I like the ability to dump all my points into what I choose. If i choose to forgo training my sword/shield/fireball or whatever and dump all my points into running fast or jumping I get to be a very unique character I like that.
It would also be cool to be able to for example, forgo all offense ability, movement speed and such, and be an uber slow moving deffensive rock that blocks/parries/dodges like crazy...
Biggest prolem with this type of system is that it would be difficult to balance... but who cares ... let me be a unique gimp please
the fundamental problem is that players have been so regimented by the bogus mmo's that they don't see rpg's as RPG's. the foundation of a good RPG, be it PnP or computer platform, is character development. character deveploment to them is PL'ing several alts for maximum pwnage.
in the 'puter realm, especially in the US, everybody wants to be the hero, exclusively, community? why? this is from the hours they've spent pushing "X" on their ps2 controller to see the next cinematic that puts them as the sole protagonist.
in an mmo, all of them, there are caps to level and skill so there isn't any varity in a player potential. no matter how much time you contribute, your stills are kept at a level of others that don't put in the time or the effort. it's digital socialism.
to add, most of the "kiddies" see mmo's strictly as PvP arenas, the RPG element just gets in their way. it doesn't pay for a developer to implement a strong, flexible skill system into a game when it's more mundane skills are pushed aside for the "maximum pwnage" skills. why waste the resources on supplemental skills when people will still buy it?
with that said, in order for any system to work,skill or class, is to lift the caps. and make social skills just as important as the maximum pwnage skills. that injects varity into systems that are broken and self-balances the system.
but it's all about the money really, a really "capless" skill system will scare the cowards away. and that doesn't make money for the publishers.
I just like knowing what my role is, and what my group members role is.
Is a skill based system awesome for those who wish to do what they want? Yes. I totally agree. And I just like most, loved SWG pre- CU. But for some reason, I keep falling back to EQ and EQ2. I don't know what it is about class base that appeals to me. Could be my background, being in the Navy where everyone had a SPECIFIC role to play. If everyone did there part well, we where unstoppable. Hmm, I don't know how a skill based system would work in that situation, I mean, wouldn't you still find players to fulfill a role? I mean, you cant have a group of 6 players, with all the same basic uber skill sets chosen, and dedicate someone to heal, and someone to tank. I mean you could, but aren't you looking at someone playing what would be considered a "class" anyways?
So you get a group together and hope that someone specialized in healing, one in tanking, and the rest DPS. Or heck, maybe in this particular game, and in this particular situation, it don't matter. Since most of the groups I encountered in SWG could tank, heal themselves and make a camp. I don't know guys, I just didn't see the fun in it anymore. How many of you fell in love with the skill based system in SWG, then had to turn around and change your skills at a higher level? I did. At first it was nice to be able to do that. The freedom was awesome. Then I realized, all the changes I made to properly advance my toon at higher levels, well, changed me into a "Class".
Does class based systems limit what you can do? Of course. Certain classes harder to solo than others? Yep. But in the end, even skill based systems have their limitations. In the end you become a particular class. SKill based systems is just the long way around.
I would like to see more combinations of skill and class systems. Start with a "tank" class, with major attributes towards "tanking". But allow minor (maybe even 1 more major) skills of your choice.
Wait, that sounds like Morrowind...gah cant have single player game thinking translated to MMOGs now can we??
This is an excellent topic. Allow me to say my two cents worth.
My philosophy in game design is to keep things simple. On top of that, keep what you have interactive and different from the other things that you have. I feel like this is what hinders more or less all MMOs to date. Despite their differences, they all play the same way.
Sure, they have different mathematical algorithms for calculating various tasks. But in the end, its all the same old "select the attack from the toolbar" interface. And this is fine. It works... I suppose. But really, we as a gaming community are just now seeing that it is becoming stale.
I think the whole debate on Class vs Skill based systems arent the problem. The problem is how theyre implemented. WoW is pretty much the best system in play right now. Its mostly a Class based system that does everything by the books. But it throws int he whole Skill thing as well where you choose what your strengths are based on what your class provides.
SWG basically just had an amazing resume. Idealy speaking, had SWG in its originality ever come around... it would have been a great system. Still... this doesnt answer the question.
I have spent the past three years studying games, MMOs in particular. And it seems to me that they are just too complex. I mean, every game is trying to out do the one before it. its all about more classes, and more special abilities for the classes. WoW is the worlds worst abotu this. Once I got to lvl 30 as a Warrior in WoW, I nearly became physically ill at all the clutter on my screen, when really, probably hald of it was necissary.
At any rate, the thing is that people will play either system whether its flawed or not. The trick is to get them to like it. I mean, lets really look outside the box here. What if Developers spent less time on coding all these special abilities, and spent more time on how each class actually plays?
Let me explain. What if the Fighter played like the Barbarian in Blade of Darkness? What if the wrong played more like Prince in Prince of Persia? What if the Ranger played more like Freedom Fighters? What if the Mage had soem cool thing no one has ever thought of before?
Now, the point here isnt to rip off other great games, but for people to for once actually choose the playstyle they have more fun with. Which to you is more fun? Freedom Fighter or Prince of Persia? If you like Freedom Fighter better, then youll probably want to play the Ranger.
Another option is to make it to where you still have the classic MMO auto target thing, but instead of clicking a toolbar for your specials... you actually have some other in-combat mini game.
Now, considering you do this, lets put this into a Class vs Skill scenario. A Class system coul dpull this off, but it would basically just reward you the ability, and then its yours. A Skill based system would make you earn the right to be better at the skill you are rewarded - or choose.
So, with that in mind... to me... neither is better than the other. Right now though, it hardly matters.
I think the point is being clutterd with others, aka Skill vs Class based systems is the topic here so I'll try to make a clarifying point on that topic.
Balance. It is ALL about balance. That is why developers do class based systems.. because it makes balancing things easier in the beginning. Sure, there are lots of philosophical reasons that people will give, and the fact that D&D folks have a bias towards that style of play. Remember though: tabletop class based systems are successful because they are simple to USE. We don't have the same constraints in an MMOG since the computer rolls all the dice, and computes all the tables. Imagine a system where the DM did all the tabulation and all you had to do was roll on 20 sider for any action? No worrying about pluses, minuses.. all of that is perfectly kept track of by the uber DM man.
Taking that one step farther, this is why skill based systems in tabletop were only for hardcore gamers.. they require(d) a LOT of overhead in tabulation and conditions. But, those of us who were tabletop players longed for more control over the environment without as much complexity.
Enter the MMOG. No need to worry about these questions.. all calculations and environmental concerns are taken care of by the uber DM. All you have to know is how stats affect things, not how to apply them. That is what makes MMOG the perfect venue for skills based gaming.
Back to Balance: In EvE, for example, there is no one 'wtfpwn' setup. There are counters for everything, pretty much. Interceptors are countered by Sniping Battleships and Anti frig setup cruisers. Battleships are countered by Assault Frigates (or hordes of interceptors). Recon ships are countered by long range missile ships. Most things can be nullified through Electronic Warfare. And so on. That is the idea that needs to be pursued in any game generally.. that there can never be any one 'ownage' template, which is accomplished by balancing off the various factors involved.
EvE, however, is NOT a true skills based system. Why? Because you are inherently limited by the ship that you fly, so it is really a special kind of Hybrid. One in which you can change classes at will, getting different bonuses and minuses depending on which one you choose. Sure, you have Gallente Frigate 5, but that doesnt help you when you are flying a cruiser. Other skills are universal, affecting general attributes of all ships. Its been balanced pretty well.
So think about balance, not 'The Ultimate Template'. In any game there must be conflict, there must be effort to achieve goals, it must take time to achieve goals and there cannot be one winner take all class, skills template, etc. To do that, there must be goals other than combat and they must be Necessary (tm) in order to keep your character viable. Having to buy skill training is one example of this, especially if the spoils of war are not anywhere near as reliable as trading or resource retrieval for making money. Also, making it so that most high level items are ONLY obtainable through crafters/manufacturers is a great way to get powergamers to whine (and crafters to cheer), but if it is that way from the very beginning they will get used to it, develop their trade contacts and etc.
I think though that more attention needs to be paid to the 'casual' gamer who logs on less than 10 hours a week. Effort should be rewarded, but it shouldn't be an order of magnitude higher reward, and it shouldn't be totally linear as related to time spent in game. Different games handle this in different ways.. WoW has their method (Temporary XP bonus gets higher the longer you are logged) and EvE has no method, and other games are inbetween.
Anyhoo, skills vs class... I think its an apples vs oranges discussion really. There will always be 'classes' even within skill systems which are favored templates that work well together. There will always be skills within class systems. Its not an opposite thing.. they are just on two different sides of a sliding scale.
Bottom line, when I'm playing a Role Playing game I want as much freedom to design my own unique character as is possible. An open-ended character template in a fun game environment can equal years of fun gameplay.
When I play a simple action game I'm happy to go with whatever cookie they want to cut for me. But I won't spend as much time playing the game. When the character is fully developed, it's game-over.
Sounds to me like Garrett Fuller doesn't know the first thing about skill or class systems. My first mmorpg was Asheron's Call which was a completely open skill system. There were some templates which people preferred but generaly characters were a mix and all skills were viable. Perhaps GF is confusing l33t players and true game players, the l33t would probably stick to the best templates whilst the rest of the gaming community created characters they enjoyed. I am currently playing EQ2 which has a class system like GF favours and all I see are clones of characters! Why skill based characters can't bring a certain something to group play and class based can is pure tripe. Both systems have mages, warriors, dps, healers, the only difference is the skill system is more freeform and allows for greater possibilites.
You guys are drawing me out. I've given up posting my ideas to the gaming community a long time ago, but this is getting interesting.
First off, about balance since it does relate to the topic of skills vs. class. Rock/Paper/Scissors is not balance unless every character is capable of having something that represents each item. In the reference to Eve being balanced because every ship has it's strengths, I don't agree. Because while it's balanced in an overall view, when you are in a particular ship you are not balanced with everything else out there. Now, if you could switch between something that represents a rock, a paper, and a scissor, and combat depended on you're ability to outthink you're opponent, who also has something that represents each....now you have balance. In such a simple case, you're intuition in determining your opponents tendencies is the only factor besides pure luck. But this can be expanded in an MMORPG to be more interesting and you're ability in each representation more important. Choice becomes a factor in a skill based game, while purely class based games takes away your choices and tells you what you will do. Recent class based games are giving you ore choices, such as WoW and a slew of unreleased games. But even so, you are limited to what you can choose, where in a true skill based game you have every choice and your practices determine how good you are at those choices.
SWG has nothing like a skill based aspect to it. It's a class/levelling game that simply allows (now allowed) you to choose different paths. That's not skill based, but the representation was that it was and this has caused some confusion in the player community.
To make it simple, a skill based game allows you to do anything, and you learn from doing. You build your skills by doing them. Giving you a choice of skills to choose to be able to do, and then levelling those choices up, does not a skill based game make.
Casual gamers- it's assumed in the gaming community that this is someone who doesn't spend much time in games, for one reason or another. But there's another kind of casual gamer. The one who plays quite a bit, but just wants to mess around doing things, and not powergame themselves levelling up all the time. Modern games have taken this pretty much out, by giving players little choice in the matter. They are all about the quests now. there's nothing else to do except chat, and chat has no limits in time or space anymore. The problem here is that games now are so focused on certain feature sets that they have left out other things. It's often said by old UO players that MMOs have gone backwards since UO was released. In early UO, you could play chess (or checkers or roll dice) in game with another player, or write a book, or walk around and pick things up off the ground (like spell reagents) or harvest some crops like carrots and cabage and a host of other things. You could buy a mug of ale (or various other drinks), you could set that mug down on a table, you could pick it up again, you could drink the ale. Then you could buy a pitcher of anything (ale, water, wine, cider), set that pitcher down on the table, refill your empty mug with whatever is in the pitcher, and then drink that. There was no character animation to this, just the items being placed and changing from empty to full, etc. But it allowed players to have some fun roleplaying things out.
Other things in UO you could do: open crates, boxes, barrels and other things to see what was in them. "Look" at almost all items (by clicking on them) to see what exactly they were and if they were unusual (such as the ruined painting in Covetous Dungeon to see the writing in the lower corner that spelled out a pattern of numbers). "Use" any item, like tools, on things that they affect (part of the true skill based system), such as using a hammer on ingots to attempt to make something. This also included using keys on locked things like doors, boat ramps, and boxes. You could build a camp fire and cook foods on them. You could light candles, lanterns and torches, and put them out. You could sit in any chair. You could shoot at archery butts and keep score. You could train fighting skills with fellow players. You could throw darts at a dart board and keep score. You could pick up and drop many many items in the world onto floors and tables, including stacking foods on plates.
And many more things you could do. I know this seems lame to players who think that machopixels are the only thing, but this allowed a feedom of actons that has been lost in more recent games. It allowed players to have some plain ol' fun instead of just level grinding all the time.
This is something that can be done to some extent, whether a game is skill based or class based, but a true skill based game like UO ties these things into it's very skill system, and allows the freedom of choice to all players, all characters. A skill based game best serves this kind of freedom. What that means is that a true skill based game offers players to do things like meetings, festivals, and roleplay events much, much better. This is one of the huge reasons I like a true skill based system over the classed based levelling system.
Another point entirely is how either system is implemented. There's a problem in my mind that can exist in either, but has really reared it's ugly head in the class based systems of late. That problem is player interaction. In these modern levelling games, you have to be of similar level to have meaningful interaction between players. A 20th level character has no business being with a 30th level. This is bad for many reasons. It divides the player base up, often ruining guilds as their members separate by these levels. It also forces the game world to be built with levels in mind. As a player, you start in low level areas, and graduate to higher and higher level areas. Some players never go back to lower level areas. This isn't really a problem with the leveling system, it's a problem with it's implementation. These games want to hook us on their levelling crack, and so they make each level such a bonus that in a few levels you are far and away better. A 50th level character is a god compared to a 10th level. And the same thing can happen in a skill based game. If anyone's familiar with the recently released game Irth online, you can see a skill based game that's feels just like a levelling grind, and has all the problems that the standard class based system has had in this reguards. So, in this particular instance, it's all about the implementing of the system.
I agree with you in pretty much everything you've said Amaranthar, especially regarding the depth of experience that I found in UO when I played there.
An RPG world (of any form) should, IMHO, be a free enviroment that permits players to find their own play structure. These games should be limited in their linearity not shoehorning players into a prepared trail with little or no deviation.
If Devs are so desperate to tell a story like that they should write a novel or make a movie.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference." -- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
I have advocated the Skill based system over the class based system since the dawn of EverCrap. You can not beat the customizability, freedom and replay ability of the skill based system. Garrett's reasoning for the class based system is completely flawed. He said that everyone will play with a certain skill set because it's the best. If that were true than why wouldn't everyone in WoW play a Rogue in the class based system so they can be the best at PvP? People still play Warlocks and Paladins even though they arent as good as other classes. The class based system does nothing to solve the issue of balance. Classes are always imbalanced just like certain skills will always be unbalanced in the skill based system. Ultimately it's up the developers to work as hard as they can to balance the game, but using a class based system does not magically balance the game. That is an idiotic misconception and all you have to do is play WoW for a month to understand that if you don't already. I just hope that developers return to the skill based system soon and forget the stupid restricting easy-out class based system.
Skill tree, hands down. The options to personalize your character by picking specific skills, and not just a class and making everything more or less uniform, is a huge benefit to any game system.
Most of the games that I have played with skill tree have been more fun and memorable than those that concentrate on classes. UO (early) and Wish, for example, were great.
Most of the class-driven games tend to lose their shiny quickly.
Class sytems doesn't hold a candle to the abundance of skill systems.
I would like to pull out a perfect example on skills vs Class
StarwarsGalaxies has become a swearword in many circles, but I have to mention the name to point the direction of where I'm going with this
Swg was skill based. You could pick any skill you wanted, combined anyway you felt like, you could drop them again and learn new things. You had a max pool of points to spend, and then had to delegate your skills within that set number. You had total freedom, and if you got bored, or changed your mind, you simply started on something else, without loosing your char. Not only that: You could do what you wanted, when you wanted, walk where you wanted, equip whatever weapon you wanted and wear what you wanted (no freakin lvl 30 to wear a pretty dress! -.- ) . I think the key is "The freedom to choose". Arent we getting tired of being underestimated by developers? they can easily make good introduction tutorials that assign ppl their place in the community, but with a skillbased system you give freedom for all.
Everyone had unike combinations, it was wonderfull. You did NOT see everyone doing the exact same thing, cause ppl wanted to try out different things and new combinations. So that should end the question when ppl are wondering if not all would go the eact same thing: No. there you have it, its tried out and it worked.
Many pvp'rs had the same combinations (or in the same lanes) but in a class system they would all have been 100 %identical (for crying out loud!!) so what difference would it make to use the skill system that would benefit all so much more. So why use a class system, instead of a skill system where everyone could be slightly different, and change when they wanted to. You saw an abundance of combinations. Roleplayers rejoiced as they could both be master pistoleer, and be able to pull our a Fizz (instrument) in a rangercamp at the end of the day.
Skill systems may take longer time to get into, but it makes the game longlasting, Mature and challenging.
Swg flopped when they brought in levels and restrictions, and flopped even more when they brought in class system. (Gosh dont you miss the time when there was no levels )
The "freedom to choose" is a golden key for any game. Why do you think the sims are the bestselling games of all times? its not just small girls playing. (again, what you want to wear, how you want to look, what you want to equip, where you want to go and when you want to do it). Let ppl take responsibility for their own char and their actions. (and if thats such a problem, start making 18+ servers )
I honestly dont believe that thoose who vote for class systems have tried the skill ones =/
Sincerely
Student of "entertainment production and interactive media, Norway"
ps: Its just like clothing. You dont see many people walking around in 50's wear now, but wouldn't you be pissed if someone told you you couldn't? we all follow the crowd somewhat, but I'll get tempered If I get restricted just because we all pretty much wear the same style anyway...
Comments
I was excited about SWG's skill system when they developed it, but what happened has been mentioned, everyone was part creature handler. Which made every a pet class that you can add rifle skills or melee skills so you were the proverbial tank mage. And smuggler was a joke and still is but thats another topic.
I think there can be a balance of class and skill.
Look at D&D D20, the pen and paper version at least. There you pick a class, but there is a skill system in place where you can be a fighter who crafts or tumbles. The feat system diversifies the classes further. You can take a fighter and make him all about 2 weapon fighting, or you can be a weapons master or you can be an archer or you can be a nimble sword fighter. Dual classing broadens the characher but not rediculously so. You become hybrid so you are not the best fighter or the best mage, but you can be a fighter mage.
City of heroes has a class system, but there are many power sets within each class to mix it up. A claws scrapper who regens or a broadsword scrapper who has swift reflexes. Electrical blaster who drains endurance or a fire blaster who damages an area over time.
Choice is great with in the confines of a class. Dual classing or subjobs can add to the diversity as well. You can't leave it wide open and you cant limit it too much.
-Netherbeast
Give a man fire and he''s warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he''s warm the rest of his life.
A completly open skill system, that does not have any one uber skill that everyone needs, and does not give poeple with way too much time on there hands to play a MMORPG a huge advantage is definatly the best.
BUT IT DOES NOT EXHIST.
At least I dont think it does. All but one of the games I have played are a class based system with a subset of skills attached to them. So far the skill system is just a big mess as far as I can see. Something I don't think most people get is the idea of a game is not to give you everything you want. Well at least it did not use to be. I think too many of you are used to punching in the "cheat" codes and going into GOD mode.
LEVEL ONE IS MORE FUN THEN LEVEL 100
Every one is wants to be end game level. However what got you adicted to the game sure in the heck was not level 50 or 60 or 70. It was how the game played at level 1 or 10 or maybe 20. I think most players will stick arround just to see if the game gets better, but If the game just is not fun at level 1 then it will never totally take over your life like a good MMORPG should
) . At low levels you definately can not be master of all so you are forced to work on a few select ones untill you have maxed them out and can go for some of skills that make you uber, but you don't use all that often. And yet this is when players get hooked on the game not when they can solo without fear at level 100.
I prefer skill-based systems but i think the skills should be contained in classes, like Star Wars Galaxies had or Ryzom has. I played played some skill-bases systems (SWG and Ryzom actually) and i did not have the feeling that everyone used the same template.
I myself select the skills i like and i do not care about wether they are the best or worst.
What i dont like is a class-based system where you learn the skills at a specific level and cannot choose what to learn, like Everquest 2 - not sure if it changed since end of closed beta - and SWG has now.
While both systems have there PRO's and CON's, I'd have to say that I like the skill based system the best. I do like having a class to help me be a part of the community, but I like the endless possibilities that games like EVE offer. I tried almost every class in WoW but lost interest after 6 months. Being stuck in a skill set limited my enjoyment of the game and my time spent playing it. I hope to see more hybrid games in the future, with both a class and skill choice system.
EVE Online.
There is no one "win" skillset in game. In fact, I highly doubt that any two players have the exact same skillset, despite the 100,000 subscribers; this is because there are literally hundreds of skills in game, all with distinct and unique applications, and anyone can learn any skill given enough time. Furthermore, there are five levels of every skill, and it takes an increasing amount of time to train the skill as the level climbs higher. Also, some skills have other skills as prerequisites.
I'm in the same boat with the person who posted earlier in stating that I can't think of any way that the EVE skill system could get better - it seems to be perfectly adapted for the game as-is.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
What can I say, WAS a SWG player for two years, since I first spoted it on the shelf in a shop here in the UK, December 2005 I think it was.
Since NGE been playing Eve and Everquest2(think that is a class system),'don't quote me though'.
So my vote goes with the Skill System.
SWG was the best game I'd ever played Pre-CU. After CU, it went down hill to the steaming pile it is today.
Their skill system was the best I've ever seen ... It's a damn shame they ruined that game. =(
There should be no levels or classes at all, only skills. Period. End of Story.
Technically speaking, I prefer a skills based system over a class based system, and so do most other people after looking at the poll results. However....
The comparison of Skill vs Class systems from the DEV side needs to be looked at in harmony with player needs and desires. I can understand why devs want to use class based systems.. it is MUCH faster to develop whole systems using classes. Period. Balance issues can be roughed in in a fraction of the time of a skills based system. Roles can be set in stone and communities forced to be diversified. Etc.
The problem here is BOTH the fact that players want more freedom to choose and tweak, AND in the fact that as the game matures inherent imbalances reveal themselves in class distinctions that are almost impossible to correct after a few iterations. Nerf this, Power Up that, introduce new ability here, remove ability there, limit, expand, etc etc.....it becomes incredibly silly. For anyone who plays(ed) DAoC for the first 3 years they will understand this point extremely well. Also, class based system combined with grind XP systems give rise to Flavor Of The Month character classes: as a new 'Uber' skill set combination is revealed, then all the twinkies flock to that class and template. Originally in DAoC, for example, you had Smite Clerics being incredibly Uber, and then they nerfed Smite. Very shortly afterward you saw a systemwide reduction in clerics unrivalled by any Plague invented by Nature or Man! You could hardly find a cleric at all, and those clerics who decided to spec in healing were chuckled at.. what very few there were.
City of Heroes has similar problems.. but to get into that with every class game out there would take up too much space.. point being, it is the other edge of the sword that IS Class Based Characters.
Skills based systems are superior IF THEY ARE DESIGNED WELL AND ARE COMPREHENSIBLE. Trying to make things too complex inevitably creates learning shock for new players who feel completely lost in a sea of possibility, and find they cannot make choices they feel are relevant to the game's dynamic. EvE is a good example of that, as a beginning player has a lot of choices, and seemingly logical paths, but until you -really- know the system and what modules are important, and what secondary skills are important, and what ships you are going to fly... you are talking about a year or more before you become competant enough to hold your own in 0.0. Sure, you can throw caution to the wind, but you won't be effective in a small group, nor will you be able to earn money at a reasonable rate. Yes, I am in an Alliance, and am in 0.0, and have double digit million SPs, for those EvE heads out there :-)
Skill based systems have the disadvantage that you have to balance out all skills against all skills, which is a lot more to think about than 10 classes. Also, you have to work out exactly what happens at each plateau, how SPs affect various items, the environment, money accurual, etc. It gets very complicated very quickly. BUT, if done correctly a skills based system is transparent, and it is simplicity itself to introduce new skills, new skill classes, new skill templates, etc, in harmony with the natural maturity of the game. Whole new races with new skill sets can be introduced without worrying about Global Balance issues. Whole new technologies/magics/etc can be introduced at a whim, since if you are intriducing one skill all you have to do is balance one thing against the universe, not an entire special entity. So, skill systems are front loaded in dev, but on the back end they yield better fruit.
What do I think the ideal system is? A Hybrid. The real question is: How to Hybridize these two seemingly disparate worlds of thought? Im guessing that is a topic for another discussion.
This is not strictly speaking, true. EVE was designed so that it would be impossible to learn every skill in game, ever, for any character, while at the same time making it possible for people who ultra specialized to become competant relatively quickly. (aka, mining ONLY, trading ONLY, Gallente Frigates ONLY, etc) This is how they created the detente against the 'everyone has teh same skillz' problem inherent in some skills based systems that are too easy to level, and other systems which placed too much emphasis on combat.
I think the downfall of most mmorpgs is the fact that they do have a class system. With a class system this tells me that I am going to be exactly like everyone else in my class and that is lame. The only truely big success with this concept is WoW and that is because of the huge Blizzard following, excellent solid smooth gameplay and graphics. I feel that a skill system that is identical to the original Ultima Online 1998ish, is the absolute best. In fact I feel that if the exact same ruleset was kept in all aspects of the original UO blended with an outstanding graphics engine you would have the next biggest and baddest mmorpg out there. I feel that freedom in character creation is a must. Almost everyone I talk to in WoW and on another game in development board feels that UO is the true pioneer and by far was the best mmorpg ever before ea ruined it. Why can't dev's get it together and stick to the basics?
Yep some of the player run shards far surpassed the content in even the newest mmo's with unique items, rare items. Special encounters pvp instances, fantastic questing, treasure hunting etc etc etc. multy race/creature based characters there were servers where you could be a dragon a zombie etc etc and each had unique skillsets. It was and still is incredible what the player run shards have done with the base code of Ultima Online. Course not many can stand the graphics anymore and since there player run they often dont last all that long. But it shows what UO could have been if EA hadnt have taken over and screwed it into a hole in the ground.
Hell the first time I ever saw armor with slots was on a player run shard. And magical crafting you could ibue items etc.
I quite enjoyed this debate and a few replies. Skill based systems have proven to provide a balance in one area, that somehow I didn't notice mentioned in the debate. Soloists! Not everyone likes to play in groups. I myself, prefer to keep the groups small and more personal. I work hard all day long and last thing I want to do is hang around trying to put together a team and then try to get that team functioning as a team.
With a skill based, like the Old Galaxies, I could hang out with 2-5 people, not overlag things, get just as many tasks in the same amount of time, and still be able to chat and get to know the one's I team with.
In City of Heroes, without the skill based, it's just invite and group. All you need is to look for the right combo, try to jam to the mission waypoints then lag with all the eye candy and the "individualistic" adaptations, get the task done and jam on to the next. Very little conversation, very little personalization....
As far as the comments regarding people taking character sets that work for them, in CoH I have one of each, and can function quite well in all as long as I stick to the "rules" of what they can and cannot do. Tanks can heal, and Controllers can pull, etc.... Once I try to work "outside the box" guaranteed I am looking at some serious XP debt.
With Galaxies, I had the same character, re-wrote a few skills, but never strayed far from the original idea of what I wanted to do. It was nice, it was comfortable. I couldn't solo Rancors, but it's ok, thanks to the personal contacts I created as a result of how the Skill system was, if I needed or wanted to, I could join in with others that could have easily soloed a whole lairs worth.
Sadly though, many developers hear only from the bored and discontents and think they are pleasing the whole, when in fact, those happiest are to busy to whine about loot, insignificant bugs, extreme lag or lacking content, such as Jedis. If only they have not setup those macros and leveled afk.
I'd like to see a game that puts the focus on advancement through a story before ability. I don't play MMOs because I like to grind out levels, I play them because I like to escape into virtual fantasy worlds. I sort of enjoy the current incarnation of SWG at the earliest levels. The tutorial stage actually feels like you're part of a story until you start doing typically random errand-style quests for denizens of the space station. By the time you get to Tatooine you're right back to "go to waypoint, defeat X# of mobs, return to contact for reward". I'm more interested in getting different styles of clothing for my character than I am in finding Pants of Uberness +11. I want to move through storylines like you'd find in a single player RPG, but I want the multiplayer experience of an MMO.
Could be I just need Neverwinter Nights 2 to hit and get myself into a persistent world somewhere, and just give up on the idea that any MMO will ever be more than a grind.
Personally, I liked the skill system in Asheron's Call 1. In every other mmo i've played, i feel like a cookiecutter char.
I like the ability to dump all my points into what I choose. If i choose to forgo training my sword/shield/fireball or whatever and dump all my points into running fast or jumping I get to be a very unique character
I like that.
It would also be cool to be able to for example, forgo all offense ability, movement speed and such, and be an uber slow moving deffensive rock that blocks/parries/dodges like crazy...
Biggest prolem with this type of system is that it would be difficult to balance... but who cares ... let me be a unique gimp please
the fundamental problem is that players have been so regimented by the bogus mmo's that they don't see rpg's as RPG's. the foundation of a good RPG, be it PnP or computer platform, is character development.
character deveploment to them is PL'ing several alts for maximum pwnage.
in the 'puter realm, especially in the US, everybody wants to be the hero, exclusively, community? why? this is from the hours they've spent pushing "X" on their ps2 controller to see the next cinematic that puts them as the sole protagonist.
in an mmo, all of them, there are caps to level and skill so there isn't any varity in a player potential. no matter how much time you contribute, your stills are kept at a level of others that don't put in the time or the effort. it's digital socialism.
to add, most of the "kiddies" see mmo's strictly as PvP arenas, the RPG element just gets in their way. it doesn't pay for a developer to implement a strong, flexible skill system into a game when it's more mundane skills are pushed aside for the "maximum pwnage" skills. why waste the resources on supplemental skills when people will still buy it?
with that said, in order for any system to work,skill or class, is to lift the caps. and make social skills just as important as the maximum pwnage skills. that injects varity into systems that are broken and self-balances the system.
but it's all about the money really, a really "capless" skill system will scare the cowards away. and that doesn't make money for the publishers.
Sorry, but Im in favor of class based systems.
I just like knowing what my role is, and what my group members role is.
Is a skill based system awesome for those who wish to do what they want? Yes. I totally agree. And I just like most, loved SWG pre- CU. But for some reason, I keep falling back to EQ and EQ2. I don't know what it is about class base that appeals to me. Could be my background, being in the Navy where everyone had a SPECIFIC role to play. If everyone did there part well, we where unstoppable. Hmm, I don't know how a skill based system would work in that situation, I mean, wouldn't you still find players to fulfill a role? I mean, you cant have a group of 6 players, with all the same basic uber skill sets chosen, and dedicate someone to heal, and someone to tank. I mean you could, but aren't you looking at someone playing what would be considered a "class" anyways?
So you get a group together and hope that someone specialized in healing, one in tanking, and the rest DPS. Or heck, maybe in this particular game, and in this particular situation, it don't matter. Since most of the groups I encountered in SWG could tank, heal themselves and make a camp. I don't know guys, I just didn't see the fun in it anymore. How many of you fell in love with the skill based system in SWG, then had to turn around and change your skills at a higher level? I did. At first it was nice to be able to do that. The freedom was awesome. Then I realized, all the changes I made to properly advance my toon at higher levels, well, changed me into a "Class".
Does class based systems limit what you can do? Of course. Certain classes harder to solo than others? Yep. But in the end, even skill based systems have their limitations. In the end you become a particular class. SKill based systems is just the long way around.
I would like to see more combinations of skill and class systems. Start with a "tank" class, with major attributes towards "tanking". But allow minor (maybe even 1 more major) skills of your choice.
Wait, that sounds like Morrowind...gah cant have single player game thinking translated to MMOGs now can we??
This is an excellent topic. Allow me to say my two cents worth.
My philosophy in game design is to keep things simple. On top of that, keep what you have interactive and different from the other things that you have. I feel like this is what hinders more or less all MMOs to date. Despite their differences, they all play the same way.
Sure, they have different mathematical algorithms for calculating various tasks. But in the end, its all the same old "select the attack from the toolbar" interface. And this is fine. It works... I suppose. But really, we as a gaming community are just now seeing that it is becoming stale.
I think the whole debate on Class vs Skill based systems arent the problem. The problem is how theyre implemented. WoW is pretty much the best system in play right now. Its mostly a Class based system that does everything by the books. But it throws int he whole Skill thing as well where you choose what your strengths are based on what your class provides.
SWG basically just had an amazing resume. Idealy speaking, had SWG in its originality ever come around... it would have been a great system. Still... this doesnt answer the question.
I have spent the past three years studying games, MMOs in particular. And it seems to me that they are just too complex. I mean, every game is trying to out do the one before it. its all about more classes, and more special abilities for the classes. WoW is the worlds worst abotu this. Once I got to lvl 30 as a Warrior in WoW, I nearly became physically ill at all the clutter on my screen, when really, probably hald of it was necissary.
At any rate, the thing is that people will play either system whether its flawed or not. The trick is to get them to like it. I mean, lets really look outside the box here. What if Developers spent less time on coding all these special abilities, and spent more time on how each class actually plays?
Let me explain. What if the Fighter played like the Barbarian in Blade of Darkness? What if the wrong played more like Prince in Prince of Persia? What if the Ranger played more like Freedom Fighters? What if the Mage had soem cool thing no one has ever thought of before?
Now, the point here isnt to rip off other great games, but for people to for once actually choose the playstyle they have more fun with. Which to you is more fun? Freedom Fighter or Prince of Persia? If you like Freedom Fighter better, then youll probably want to play the Ranger.
Another option is to make it to where you still have the classic MMO auto target thing, but instead of clicking a toolbar for your specials... you actually have some other in-combat mini game.
Now, considering you do this, lets put this into a Class vs Skill scenario. A Class system coul dpull this off, but it would basically just reward you the ability, and then its yours. A Skill based system would make you earn the right to be better at the skill you are rewarded - or choose.
So, with that in mind... to me... neither is better than the other. Right now though, it hardly matters.
Lots more interesting feedback on this one...
I think the point is being clutterd with others, aka Skill vs Class based systems is the topic here so I'll try to make a clarifying point on that topic.
Balance. It is ALL about balance. That is why developers do class based systems.. because it makes balancing things easier in the beginning. Sure, there are lots of philosophical reasons that people will give, and the fact that D&D folks have a bias towards that style of play. Remember though: tabletop class based systems are successful because they are simple to USE. We don't have the same constraints in an MMOG since the computer rolls all the dice, and computes all the tables. Imagine a system where the DM did all the tabulation and all you had to do was roll on 20 sider for any action? No worrying about pluses, minuses.. all of that is perfectly kept track of by the uber DM man.
Taking that one step farther, this is why skill based systems in tabletop were only for hardcore gamers.. they require(d) a LOT of overhead in tabulation and conditions. But, those of us who were tabletop players longed for more control over the environment without as much complexity.
Enter the MMOG. No need to worry about these questions.. all calculations and environmental concerns are taken care of by the uber DM. All you have to know is how stats affect things, not how to apply them. That is what makes MMOG the perfect venue for skills based gaming.
Back to Balance: In EvE, for example, there is no one 'wtfpwn' setup. There are counters for everything, pretty much. Interceptors are countered by Sniping Battleships and Anti frig setup cruisers. Battleships are countered by Assault Frigates (or hordes of interceptors). Recon ships are countered by long range missile ships. Most things can be nullified through Electronic Warfare. And so on. That is the idea that needs to be pursued in any game generally.. that there can never be any one 'ownage' template, which is accomplished by balancing off the various factors involved.
EvE, however, is NOT a true skills based system. Why? Because you are inherently limited by the ship that you fly, so it is really a special kind of Hybrid. One in which you can change classes at will, getting different bonuses and minuses depending on which one you choose. Sure, you have Gallente Frigate 5, but that doesnt help you when you are flying a cruiser. Other skills are universal, affecting general attributes of all ships. Its been balanced pretty well.
So think about balance, not 'The Ultimate Template'. In any game there must be conflict, there must be effort to achieve goals, it must take time to achieve goals and there cannot be one winner take all class, skills template, etc. To do that, there must be goals other than combat and they must be Necessary (tm) in order to keep your character viable. Having to buy skill training is one example of this, especially if the spoils of war are not anywhere near as reliable as trading or resource retrieval for making money. Also, making it so that most high level items are ONLY obtainable through crafters/manufacturers is a great way to get powergamers to whine (and crafters to cheer), but if it is that way from the very beginning they will get used to it, develop their trade contacts and etc.
I think though that more attention needs to be paid to the 'casual' gamer who logs on less than 10 hours a week. Effort should be rewarded, but it shouldn't be an order of magnitude higher reward, and it shouldn't be totally linear as related to time spent in game. Different games handle this in different ways.. WoW has their method (Temporary XP bonus gets higher the longer you are logged) and EvE has no method, and other games are inbetween.
Anyhoo, skills vs class... I think its an apples vs oranges discussion really. There will always be 'classes' even within skill systems which are favored templates that work well together. There will always be skills within class systems. Its not an opposite thing.. they are just on two different sides of a sliding scale.
Skills <---------------------------->Class
Bottom line, when I'm playing a Role Playing game I want as much freedom to design my own unique character as is possible. An open-ended character template in a fun game environment can equal years of fun gameplay.
When I play a simple action game I'm happy to go with whatever cookie they want to cut for me. But I won't spend as much time playing the game. When the character is fully developed, it's game-over.
You guys are drawing me out. I've given up posting my ideas to the gaming community a long time ago, but this is getting interesting.
First off, about balance since it does relate to the topic of skills vs. class. Rock/Paper/Scissors is not balance unless every character is capable of having something that represents each item. In the reference to Eve being balanced because every ship has it's strengths, I don't agree. Because while it's balanced in an overall view, when you are in a particular ship you are not balanced with everything else out there. Now, if you could switch between something that represents a rock, a paper, and a scissor, and combat depended on you're ability to outthink you're opponent, who also has something that represents each....now you have balance. In such a simple case, you're intuition in determining your opponents tendencies is the only factor besides pure luck. But this can be expanded in an MMORPG to be more interesting and you're ability in each representation more important. Choice becomes a factor in a skill based game, while purely class based games takes away your choices and tells you what you will do. Recent class based games are giving you ore choices, such as WoW and a slew of unreleased games. But even so, you are limited to what you can choose, where in a true skill based game you have every choice and your practices determine how good you are at those choices.
SWG has nothing like a skill based aspect to it. It's a class/levelling game that simply allows (now allowed) you to choose different paths. That's not skill based, but the representation was that it was and this has caused some confusion in the player community.
To make it simple, a skill based game allows you to do anything, and you learn from doing. You build your skills by doing them. Giving you a choice of skills to choose to be able to do, and then levelling those choices up, does not a skill based game make.
Casual gamers- it's assumed in the gaming community that this is someone who doesn't spend much time in games, for one reason or another. But there's another kind of casual gamer. The one who plays quite a bit, but just wants to mess around doing things, and not powergame themselves levelling up all the time. Modern games have taken this pretty much out, by giving players little choice in the matter. They are all about the quests now. there's nothing else to do except chat, and chat has no limits in time or space anymore. The problem here is that games now are so focused on certain feature sets that they have left out other things. It's often said by old UO players that MMOs have gone backwards since UO was released. In early UO, you could play chess (or checkers or roll dice) in game with another player, or write a book, or walk around and pick things up off the ground (like spell reagents) or harvest some crops like carrots and cabage and a host of other things. You could buy a mug of ale (or various other drinks), you could set that mug down on a table, you could pick it up again, you could drink the ale. Then you could buy a pitcher of anything (ale, water, wine, cider), set that pitcher down on the table, refill your empty mug with whatever is in the pitcher, and then drink that. There was no character animation to this, just the items being placed and changing from empty to full, etc. But it allowed players to have some fun roleplaying things out.
Other things in UO you could do: open crates, boxes, barrels and other things to see what was in them. "Look" at almost all items (by clicking on them) to see what exactly they were and if they were unusual (such as the ruined painting in Covetous Dungeon to see the writing in the lower corner that spelled out a pattern of numbers). "Use" any item, like tools, on things that they affect (part of the true skill based system), such as using a hammer on ingots to attempt to make something. This also included using keys on locked things like doors, boat ramps, and boxes. You could build a camp fire and cook foods on them. You could light candles, lanterns and torches, and put them out. You could sit in any chair. You could shoot at archery butts and keep score. You could train fighting skills with fellow players. You could throw darts at a dart board and keep score. You could pick up and drop many many items in the world onto floors and tables, including stacking foods on plates.
And many more things you could do. I know this seems lame to players who think that machopixels are the only thing, but this allowed a feedom of actons that has been lost in more recent games. It allowed players to have some plain ol' fun instead of just level grinding all the time.
This is something that can be done to some extent, whether a game is skill based or class based, but a true skill based game like UO ties these things into it's very skill system, and allows the freedom of choice to all players, all characters. A skill based game best serves this kind of freedom. What that means is that a true skill based game offers players to do things like meetings, festivals, and roleplay events much, much better. This is one of the huge reasons I like a true skill based system over the classed based levelling system.
Another point entirely is how either system is implemented. There's a problem in my mind that can exist in either, but has really reared it's ugly head in the class based systems of late. That problem is player interaction. In these modern levelling games, you have to be of similar level to have meaningful interaction between players. A 20th level character has no business being with a 30th level. This is bad for many reasons. It divides the player base up, often ruining guilds as their members separate by these levels. It also forces the game world to be built with levels in mind. As a player, you start in low level areas, and graduate to higher and higher level areas. Some players never go back to lower level areas. This isn't really a problem with the leveling system, it's a problem with it's implementation. These games want to hook us on their levelling crack, and so they make each level such a bonus that in a few levels you are far and away better. A 50th level character is a god compared to a 10th level. And the same thing can happen in a skill based game. If anyone's familiar with the recently released game Irth online, you can see a skill based game that's feels just like a levelling grind, and has all the problems that the standard class based system has had in this reguards. So, in this particular instance, it's all about the implementing of the system.
Once upon a time....
I agree with you in pretty much everything you've said Amaranthar, especially regarding the depth of experience that I found in UO when I played there.
An RPG world (of any form) should, IMHO, be a free enviroment that permits players to find their own play structure. These games should be limited in their linearity not shoehorning players into a prepared trail with little or no deviation.
If Devs are so desperate to tell a story like that they should write a novel or make a movie.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
I have advocated the Skill based system over the class based system since the dawn of EverCrap. You can not beat the customizability, freedom and replay ability of the skill based system. Garrett's reasoning for the class based system is completely flawed. He said that everyone will play with a certain skill set because it's the best. If that were true than why wouldn't everyone in WoW play a Rogue in the class based system so they can be the best at PvP? People still play Warlocks and Paladins even though they arent as good as other classes. The class based system does nothing to solve the issue of balance. Classes are always imbalanced just like certain skills will always be unbalanced in the skill based system. Ultimately it's up the developers to work as hard as they can to balance the game, but using a class based system does not magically balance the game. That is an idiotic misconception and all you have to do is play WoW for a month to understand that if you don't already. I just hope that developers return to the skill based system soon and forget the stupid restricting easy-out class based system.
The key to a great MMOG is Freedom
Skill tree, hands down. The options to personalize your character by picking specific skills, and not just a class and making everything more or less uniform, is a huge benefit to any game system.
Most of the games that I have played with skill tree have been more fun and memorable than those that concentrate on classes. UO (early) and Wish, for example, were great.
Most of the class-driven games tend to lose their shiny quickly.
http://wuyausu.com
Who stopped payment on my reality check?
Class sytems doesn't hold a candle to the abundance of skill systems.
I would like to pull out a perfect example on skills vs Class
StarwarsGalaxies has become a swearword in many circles, but I have to mention the name to point the direction of where I'm going with this
Swg was skill based. You could pick any skill you wanted, combined anyway you felt like, you could drop them again and learn new things. You had a max pool of points to spend, and then had to delegate your skills within that set number. You had total freedom, and if you got bored, or changed your mind, you simply started on something else, without loosing your char. Not only that: You could do what you wanted, when you wanted, walk where you wanted, equip whatever weapon you wanted and wear what you wanted (no freakin lvl 30 to wear a pretty dress! -.- ) . I think the key is "The freedom to choose". Arent we getting tired of being underestimated by developers? they can easily make good introduction tutorials that assign ppl their place in the community, but with a skillbased system you give freedom for all.
Everyone had unike combinations, it was wonderfull. You did NOT see everyone doing the exact same thing, cause ppl wanted to try out different things and new combinations. So that should end the question when ppl are wondering if not all would go the eact same thing: No. there you have it, its tried out and it worked.
Many pvp'rs had the same combinations (or in the same lanes) but in a class system they would all have been 100 %identical (for crying out loud!!) so what difference would it make to use the skill system that would benefit all so much more. So why use a class system, instead of a skill system where everyone could be slightly different, and change when they wanted to. You saw an abundance of combinations. Roleplayers rejoiced as they could both be master pistoleer, and be able to pull our a Fizz (instrument) in a rangercamp at the end of the day.
Skill systems may take longer time to get into, but it makes the game longlasting, Mature and challenging.
Swg flopped when they brought in levels and restrictions, and flopped even more when they brought in class system. (Gosh dont you miss the time when there was no levels
)
The "freedom to choose" is a golden key for any game. Why do you think the sims are the bestselling games of all times? its not just small girls playing. (again, what you want to wear, how you want to look, what you want to equip, where you want to go and when you want to do it). Let ppl take responsibility for their own char and their actions. (and if thats such a problem, start making 18+ servers
)
I honestly dont believe that thoose who vote for class systems have tried the skill ones =/
Sincerely
Student of "entertainment production and interactive media, Norway"
ps: Its just like clothing. You dont see many people walking around in 50's wear now, but wouldn't you be pissed if someone told you you couldn't? we all follow the crowd somewhat, but I'll get tempered If I get restricted just because we all pretty much wear the same style anyway...