I don't know if this has been said already...but yeah about balance, class systems can be and have been in nearly every mmo...imbalanced to some degree. balance has less to do with what system is used (class or skill) and everything to do with dev skill. Since classes will be unbalanced the class that offers the most power is the one most players will gravitate towards, at least in PvP. The same can happen in skill systems.
I prefer skill over class because....well since things will probably become imbalanced regardless, I may as well have the freedom to be imbalanced in a way that fits my personality and playstyle. The cool thing about skill also is the fact that if a build becomes too uber the devs can easily introduce new skills for counterbuilds that arent uber but counter the uber build or the uber skills..thus bringing back some degree of improved balance. Though to be honest balance in this context is something I don't much believe in...as long as there are untested combinations and variables, it's impossible to achieve. So might as well just let players be how they want.
I also support some limits as well. Such as a maximum on how many special skills one may possess to keep players from mastering every possible skill in the game.
I lean more toward skill based systems. With that now said here is my shade of grey.
I like games where you get skills by working skills. If you get the initial training for a skill or spell then train it you get better at it. This is where a class can come into play. The starting class allots you certine benifits to abilities skill or spells and the appropriate equipment and training to advance those skills within that class. If you wish to advance out side of that class you must buy the appropriate equipment and seek any training needed to grow in those areas. The second role of the class would be access to the most advanced skills within a class would be limited to those where are adept at the particular type of skills.
For example: As it was stated in the debate "Gandolf was a Greatsword weilding wizard why can't i be?" I agree. So you need to focus in a caster class and a fighter class. But what you start as molds the final product. If you start as a fighter in the end you will be a goog fighter with some impresive spells. If you start as the caster you have massive spells and can hold your own in a fight.
This style of charachter advancement is great for soloing and can be honed for team work as well on the larger missions. In these types of games team work should incorperate some sort of benifits to help it as an option but not be the only option.
A free for all system isn't what people are thinking it is going to be, you'll be limited in your choices. You won't be able to master every skill tree, so templates will come about. Templates = Classes. People will gravitate towards the best template for the type of character they want, healer, warrior, mage etc. So you end up with a class system regardless, sure some spells will be your own but thats the same with all the other mmo's, you had you base skills and whatever spells you wanted to load.
Like I stated previously, a class system with skill subtrees would work great. It defines the role of a character but allows customizablity (is that a word?). So if somone is labeled healer, you know they have a strong line of heal spells, and will fill the role of a healer in a group.
To those who say a skill system isn't hard, let me ask you how many times have you grouped with somone in a class system who sucked? To many to count for me, now think about your groups in a skill based system... I shudder just thinking about it, and once again people will create templates, and guilds will only invite certain templates into the guild. I've seen it, and you've all seen it to some extent. A skill system gravitates towards a class system every time, because its the easiest to balance and the easiest to rely upon.
I'd like to correct the guy about the best armor and weapons being the heaviest, thats not true. It depends on the way it was crafted, the bulky iron armor that the knights used wasn't the best type of armor that could have been made, there is a technique i think its called "water down" That creates a lighter better armor. Japan was also making swords far superior to knights swords possibly hundreds of years before them, and they weren't the huge bulky things like in braveheart. Not to mention technique comes into it as well.
So let me ask which you'd prefer:
Class and skill system are self explanatory, but the class/skill system is like what i explained above: You choose a class, healer, warrior, mage, hunter, etc, and gain a defining role, and then you can choose a secondary skill tree of your on choosing, with a possible third skill set later on down the road. It allows people to know what you are, and allows everyone to customize how they want. Examples: Warrior Class then chooses a healing skill tree = Paladin, Or Healer class choose a line of fire spells = inquisitor, etc A pure healer can choose a line of buff spells, making them essentially a cleric or templar. (but i'll leave the creation details to devs, you get the basic idea)
sicsyco, I'm glad that you're happy playing in all those little boxes with their different coloured bells and whistles that your favourite MMO gives you to play in.
However I, amongst others, like to make our own boxes and play outside them.
There is no more anarchy in a skill based system than there is in a class (and thus, by default, level) based system. Each an every game has certain common elements and I'll focus on the most common, combat, so that I can show you where class and skill differ.
Combat is made up of certain types of events, lets call them Initiative, Ranged Attack, Melee Attack, Ranged Dodge , Melee Dodge , Damage, Damage Capacity, Damage Resistance and Recovery.
Initiative is how fast you act in combat. The more encumbered you are by armor and weapons the less Initiative you have.
Ranged Attack is how well you hit someone with a missile weapon
Ranged Dodge is how well you avoid getting hit by missile weapons, it's penalised like Initiative.
Melee Attack is how well you hit someone with a melee weapon
Melee Dodge is how well you avoid getting hit with a melee weapon, it's penalised like Initiative.
Damage is mostly a function of your weapon but can be influenced by character abilities. The more damage a weapon does the more it encumbers a character reducing their Initiative and Dodging abilities.
Damage Capacity is how much damage a character can take and remain functioning; a more common term is Hit Points.
Damage Resistance is mostly a function of armor and is used to reduce the amount of damage a character takes from weapons. The more Damage Resistance an armor grants the more in encumbers.. yada.. yada.. yada.
Recovery is how quickly a character recovers from injury, how quickly their Damage Capacity replenishes.
In a class based system a characters abilities in these events are predefined by their class. FoEx an archer would start off with a good initiative, a good ranged attack and dodge, poor melee attack and dodge, and just be okay in everything else with the exception of damage resistance because armor would get in the way. A tanker would have an okay initiative, poor ranged abilities, good melee abilities a high damage resistance, capacity and recovery.
In a skill based system a character could choose their ability in each of the events, starting off okay and picking and choosing their abilities according to their tastes. A Shield skill FoEx would provide a bit more ranged dodge, quite a bit melee dodge and some damage resistance and these would improve with use. Or you could have a general Dodge wich improves both but doesn't improve melee dodge as much as shield (but more so for ranged; improving both the same), or you could have a skill that favours ranged dodge over melee dodge. In a class based system you're stuck with what the Devs give you.
Also skills will get in each others way; sneaking in armor is a no-no, the same is true with berserking. You can't pick locks with gloves on but using a bow without them is painful (but that's items...) A better example would be backstabbing when berserked because you're in an uncontrolled rage not condusive to pick a spot for a well placed blow, so you can't use them together. IRL the martial arts Iron Hand technique destroys finemotor control in the effected hand. Bye bye lockpicking, speed typing, fletching, electronic engineering, caligraphy, and so on. However you have a built-in mace that doesn't encumber you, cant be easily disarmed and is capable of blocking other weapons.
Likewise certain skills would come with taboos, the breaking of which reduces the effectiveness of the skill. Kill an animal and not use the carcus for food or raw materials and the nature spirits may not let you cast theri magic as easily. In a class based system these taboos are either hardwired and your character cannot actually break them, or they exist only as flavour text and have no real in-game effect.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference." -- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
Well, i voted for skill system, but what i would REALY like to see, is a mix of both. If anyone (and im sure a lot) played D&D or D&D based games (like baldurs gate or Icewind dale) knows what i mean. For example, make classes but let us change it anytime we want, keeping the skills we learned from the old one and start learning new ones. (and i hope DDO will let me do it... oh how i hope it will...) This way, all players could customize thair chars tha way thay want... A warrior who specializes in xbows, or mage wearing plate and wielding a sword... Any objections??
Each game does there characters and classes differently
The reason players don't like a pure class based system is it lacks collectablity to the character and the character isn't unique, but at the same time the class system allow for better game play.
So when it comes down to it a what players would like the most would be a class based system where there character was more unique and the was not just one or two choices but more along the lines of a few hundred every few so many levels so in the end you got a character thats far closer to what you want it to be but still with in the guide line of the class so when you jion a party you can just in a few words tell them you speciality and still full fill you role.
I voted Skill Based. I have too many fond memories of pre CU SWG memories (Hell even CU, but still pre NGE).
The skill system gave you a onnection to your chracter, that chracter really was an extension of you becuase you could tailor your chracter into what you wanted it to be. Not being forced into a job or roll with the only aim is to reach the next level or get that next peice of lewt.
FFXi seems to sit somewhere in the middle. Everything about it is level based but I personally never feel like i'm actully grinding for levels, unlike WoW or EQ
Originally posted by LilPika I voted Skill Based. I have too many fond memories of pre CU SWG memories (Hell even CU, but still pre NGE). The skill system gave you a onnection to your chracter, that chracter really was an extension of you becuase you could tailor your chracter into what you wanted it to be. Not being forced into a job or roll with the only aim is to reach the next level or get that next peice of lewt. FFXi seems to sit somewhere in the middle. Everything about it is level based but I personally never feel like i'm actully grinding for levels, unlike WoW or EQ
SWG is a horrid example, I played at the release, and a friend of mine played the whole time and their skill system was horrible. Not to mention everyone became clones, following templates and essentially becoming part of the "class" system that you disliked. Sure you could pick your own skill trees but when it came down to it, you didn't vary much from the best game templates (well unless you didn't know what you were doing). I tried to get a refund from sony because the game sucked so bad, they just laughed at me. Thats for another debate though, haha.
A hybrid system fills both needs, most games are going to use a class/level based system regardless. Although they are leaning more to customization, so I wouldn't be suprised if you saw a hybrid system becoming more predominant. Any game aiming at alot of high level content is going to have to rely on characters with defining roles to make encounters challenging.
Honestly most people who prefer a skill system don't realize their end game turns into a class system any way. A true skill system wouldn't have a level system either, so you would have no clue as to the skill of your fellow team mate. You would be finding groups by saying "need healer with 1000+ hp heal" Or tank with 2500 hp+. Its just not a good system unless you want a pvp system without alot of high end raiding stuff. You can't design challenging content on the hopes that somone created a certain template.
The best skill system out there supposedly is EVE, which from what friends tell me is a major time sink, worse then grinding levels (I played in beta, and could take it or leave it, didn't really stand out to me). Which i'm not complaining about, but people think a level grind is bad, try spending three months developing your character before you can even attempt cool things(or as somone said above 3 months before you can effectively pvp).
Originally posted by LilPika I voted Skill Based. I have too many fond memories of pre CU SWG memories (Hell even CU, but still pre NGE). The skill system gave you a onnection to your chracter, that chracter really was an extension of you becuase you could tailor your chracter into what you wanted it to be. Not being forced into a job or roll with the only aim is to reach the next level or get that next peice of lewt. FFXi seems to sit somewhere in the middle. Everything about it is level based but I personally never feel like i'm actully grinding for levels, unlike WoW or EQ
SWG is a horrid example, I played at the release, and a friend of mine played the whole time and their skill system was horrible. Not to mention everyone became clones, following templates and essentially becoming part of the "class" system that you disliked. Sure you could pick your own skill trees but when it came down to it, you didn't vary much from the best game templates (well unless you didn't know what you were doing). I tried to get a refund from sony because the game sucked so bad, they just laughed at me. Thats for another debate though, haha.
A hybrid system fills both needs, most games are going to use a class/level based system regardless. Although they are leaning more to customization, so I wouldn't be suprised if you saw a hybrid system becoming more predominant. Any game aiming at alot of high level content is going to have to rely on characters with defining roles to make encounters challenging.
Honestly most people who prefer a skill system don't realize their end game turns into a class system any way. A true skill system wouldn't have a level system either, so you would have no clue as to the skill of your fellow team mate. You would be finding groups by saying "need healer with 1000+ hp heal" Or tank with 2500 hp+. Its just not a good system unless you want a pvp system without alot of high end raiding stuff. You can't design challenging content on the hopes that somone created a certain template.
The best skill system out there supposedly is EVE, which from what friends tell me is a major time sink, worse then grinding levels (I played in beta, and could take it or leave it, didn't really stand out to me). Which i'm not complaining about, but people think a level grind is bad, try spending three months developing your character before you can even attempt cool things(or as somone said above 3 months before you can effectively pvp).
Isn't Heal based on something like MND or INT? Why would your skill choices have any affect at all on things decided by your race and armor? FFXI demonstrated it better than any fantasy game up to date. TaruTarus are great as mages, but a TaruTaru ninja tanking drove me crazy because 3 hits=death. You should know your limits before you ask to join a party, or fix whatever's wrong at least. Would be nice to build off of that example, with something like what someone else mentioned, the class change system that allows you to keep some your old skills as you go.
And I thought SWG was balanced in the same way WoW tried to do it. A pistoleer would probably get owned by a rifleman because of his damage and range advantage. A rifleman doesn't have enough snares and stuns to keep a jedi from running up and slicing them to pieces, whereas, a pistoleer would have no problem running circles around that same jedi. You had choices to make, there were FOTM templates, but there wasn't really a best there I don't think.
Originally posted by nthnaoun I prefer a skill based system over a class based. I don't think people will gravitate to the same skills, but I do think people will end up playing the role of a "class" type anyways. I for one plan to be a Wizard in The Chronicle which will be skill based. However, I do plan to dabble in some melee for up close and personal protection. There will be those that specialize in skills that would make them close to a rogue, healer, and warrior also. At least with a skill system you can mix and match those skills that best suit your play style.
Can you show me a Game that has been out for 6 months that has a skill based system that a majority of people aren't playing with basically the same skill set?
Every skill based game I know about UO, AC1, SWG, etc. Always ends up with a uber combat template. That if you are like me and you don't follow and you end up leveling way slower or end up being PvP fodder. I'd like a skill bases system, I have just never seen a balanced skilled based system. So if you can find one I'll consider it, until then give me a balanced game with classes. If the game is not balanced it's just not fun to play.
and the vote says free for all...the best games are the ones where you are free to develope your own personality as opposed to assuming the roles designed by the DEVS. All the best games are skills and not classed based albiet some offer class structures to work within. Runequest (far superior to D&D), Elite, EVE, Project Entropia, Morrowind and the one for the future DARKFALL.
I voted for a skill based MMORPG and I have several reasons I voted the way I did but first I'll give you a little background on my experience.
I have been playing MMO's since UO was in beta and EQ was on the horizon. I chose UO over EQ at first or really it was chosen for me as a Birthday gift. I played UO for about 6 years and then moved on when they split worlds to Non-PvP. I did not leave just because of that though...I left because MMO's where the next big thing and developers all ove the world began to jump on the bandwagon and I was extactic to give the ALL a try. I was a student at the time so I could only afford on Montly account at a time so I moved to Earth and Beyond for a Sci-Fi twist to MMO's. I played that MMO for about 5 months...long enough to reach the limit of a class/limited based system and have nothing left to do.
I moved to SWG next which was a great game with diverse skills for each individual class but the nerf game played by the developers got to me along with the LONG runs to from place to place got to me very quickly. It showed promise but I did not play it for long once the nerf gun came out the first time and I found my once powerful caracter barly able to step out of the city anymore.
I then moved to AC2 which was another class/limited based MMO. I liked the game and advanced quickly but soon found myself hunting in one spot killing MOB's 10 times my level just to girnd as fast as possible. Then they Nerfed all skills/classes...then nerfed again...and again... I just got tired of working hard to improve a character just to get to high levels and have them nerf my sills. Needless to say I quit that game but I will say I REALLY liked the idea of a tech building stationary artilary.
The next game I wanted to try was EVE Online since it promised a better system than EnB and broad possibilities. I started playing in the beta and found that the game itself wasn't really ready for the public but they published it anyway. The game was EXTREAMLY difficult to be anything but a miner unless you were lucky enough to get into a large Corp with great teamwork. I quickly quit that MMO since it needed work...with plans to come back in a few months and give it a try again.
Next I went to FFXI another class/limited MMO. I loved the new take on graphics and improvements but eventually quit playing the game because of the time it took to travel the world. Runing and runing and runing and runing just to get to an area where you could actually DO ANYTHING was getting really old...also I did not like the limitation of the classes.
I then moved to DAOC which was an old MMO at this time that had pleanty of time to get their system right...so I thought. This was another class/limited MMO much like AC2 where you got somone of high level to help you grind to higher levels since the grind is all there was to do in the game and that gets old. I quickly got bored with the game and limitations.
I waited impatiently for the NEXT BIG THING...WOW!! It was so exciting to think of a great RTS becoming an MMO. Once it finally went gold I Joined the game. I was shocked by what I first saw...thousands of players in one area at a time! The larges gathering of players in an MMO I've ever seen. The game showed promise, but quickly I advanced my main character to it's max and found that there was nothing left to do...but they promised battlegrounds! I was excited about that so I stuck around while they developed it. Once they got it up and running it was the BEST! I had more fun than any other MMO for 2 days...that's when the Battlegrounds flopped...the Horde stopped going and therfore the battlegound was no more...so I moved on.
I went back to EVE to see how the progress had developed and to my suprise the game was excellent. I was able to advance to better ships quickly enough and did not have to do any boring mining or building. I jumped straight into fighting and was quickly approached by a corp that proved to be the best thing to happen to me in the game. I quickly got to BS status and found that there was not much else to do other than PvP and that was extreamly dangerous and tremendously costly to loose expensive ships. I soon quit EVE with the invite back to UO...the only MMO I played for more than a year and still my favorite.
I currently play UO now and with the changes they have made make it the BEST MMO on the market with a skill based system. Players no longer focus on magery since they created other ways to travel the world without recall. They changed almost every aspect of the game that I remembered. I was pleasently supprised.
Now, obviously I have given examples and played all types of MMO's on the market. Obviously a skill based system IS the best for an MMO! EVE Online and UO are both excellent games both based on skills. EVE is still a limited game since you have to choose a race to start with and that limits for the most part what ships you can fly...however, they do have the option to learn the skills to fly another races ships. The main issue of that game is the penalty and cost for PvP...credits run that system more than anything else and getting massive amounts of credits takes a LONG LONG time.
Every class based MMO out there has more balance issues that I can shake a stick at and once a single class is found to be the most powerful class and thousands of players flock to it the game developers NERF that class as their solution to the problem. Therfore, class based systems without an accompaning skill based system that encompasses all abilities will be a Nerf infested game and not worth playing.
I do not think that this Class/Skills debate is the REAL issue though. I think it has to do with giving each player the ability to have fun in the game without the feeling like they are missing out on something because they aren't this "Class" or don't have this "Skill". If an MMO focuses on BALANCE they can have both/either of these as their basis of character development. Here is what I think all MMO's need to allow all of their players...but this list is not exclussive and I may be missing some things...but it is a broad view of what they would need.
1. FAST way of travel within the world. UO is the best MMO out there where this is concerned. WOW should rethink the stupid Griffon rides and it would be much improved...it is a world of magic isn't it! Where are the NPC teleporters? (or simply a checkbox to turn off the damn animation of flying from one place to another)
2. Balanced Self healing!!! Every player out ther at one point or another must solo and MOST players perfer to solo play the game to a certain point. Grouping is great but devoting time and attention to grouping is sometimes a bother to some players. Granted I do think that Healer classes should have an advantage here...but not one that makes everyone want to be this class.
3. Balanced PvP and PvE!!! Enough said...there should never ever be one class or skill set that is dominate on the battlefield.
4. Excellent Player based marketing system. Be it auction houses, or vendors.
5. Excellent diverse Crafting system. Much like UO or even SWG.
I want to clear up on thing...I am not against a class baseed system. I loved to play some of the class based MMO's I just think that they limit their game to a grind to level up to the maximum level achievable and once there players get bored. If a Calss based system mixed it up with skills much like EVE did with Race and skills that game would have promise and a chance to keep players envolved beyond the maximum capped level. Sorry for such a long post and please forgive any clerical errors I may have missed.
There are things I like about both types however the implementation of them is key.
I really like being a part of the community and feeling like you are an important cog in the framework. For this I think a class system works best because people are seen for what they are, based on character type. Putting together a well balanced team is fairly straightforward although there are always some folks who don't know how to play their type.
The best class systems will allow a bunch of customizations within the classes and that allows for more individuality. So far this seems to me as the best solution out there.
Skill based systems should be the ultimate in customization and are nice because you are not tied down to a box of rules based on class. That said, it sure does blow chunks when the majority of folks gravitate to the same set of skills. This happens because the challenges within the game are not broad enough. When everyone is almost the same it takes the signifigance of your character out of the game and for me, that means I don't play anymore.
I played SWG for a while but I HATED the way from week to week the players around me where changing what they were. One week they were an uber armorsmith and the next time you called them up they were a martial arts expert and couldn't make armor anymore. I liked the idea that you can't be all things to everyone but the way this was implemented it just meant you couldn't count on anymore from week to week.
I would like a skills based system where you couldn't keep changing what you were over and over again and more importantly all the skills were needed. The problem is with most skill systems there are just not enough IMPORTANT skills out there. If team management skills where as important as axe wielding but you couldn't do both at the same time then both skills would be needed in a team and that would mean characters with various skill sets. Thus, you build community and value for each member.
You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too. That just encourages solo-ism which if you really want that, then go by a box game and leave rpg's alone. The point of RPG is to play a Role and if your role is unimportant or filled by 98 percent of the players there just isn't much point.
Group --- I prefer class (specialised your aspect)
Solo --- I prefer skills (generalist you can master everything)
Interdependances gameplays --- Skills, if I have to do every activity in the dictionnary because the devs think it is immersive, there is no sense in limiting me to a class, which is a specialist.
Independant gameplays --- Either, class would be favored, but for solo skills would skill make sense although it would not be necessary.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by nthnaoun I prefer a skill based system over a class based. I don't think people will gravitate to the same skills, but I do think people will end up playing the role of a "class" type anyways. I for one plan to be a Wizard in The Chronicle which will be skill based. However, I do plan to dabble in some melee for up close and personal protection. There will be those that specialize in skills that would make them close to a rogue, healer, and warrior also. At least with a skill system you can mix and match those skills that best suit your play style.
Can you show me a Game that has been out for 6 months that has a skill based system that a majority of people aren't playing with basically the same skill set?
Every skill based game I know about UO, AC1, SWG, etc. Always ends up with a uber combat template. That if you are like me and you don't follow and you end up leveling way slower or end up being PvP fodder. I'd like a skill bases system, I have just never seen a balanced skilled based system. So if you can find one I'll consider it, until then give me a balanced game with classes. If the game is not balanced it's just not fun to play.
Arthor
There are no PERFECT MMO's that are skill based or class based yet. But UO is now diverse enough and somewhat balanced in their skills now that not everyone is a mage. There is still a strong desire for being a mage but now the Paladin template is sought after, along with the powerful tamer classes, or combinations of them. The good thing about this skill based system is that no TWO characters are exactly alike even though they may seem the same they have many differences in skills and equipment. Before it was impossible not to find a mage character in UO.
What I want you to do for me is point out ANY BALANCED class based system in the MMO universe!!! There are NONE that I know of currently but would love to play one soon that can keep my interest once I have hit the level cap. Diverse systems with skills as their base will always have more appeal to the long term player types like miself.
Yea all true sicsyco. Although eve wasnt strickly a skill system i would like, since it is based on time and not on use. I too tried it and quit because it was gonna take a month b4 i could get a decent trading ship.
I think what the real problem is whether or not the game focuses on the leveling or increase of skill. As opposted to an actual end game. By that i mean is it the journey or the actual game world you think is more important to an MMOG. For me its the world.
And this, for me, goes to a core question. Why play An MMOG? Simple i want to be able to own a piece of the world. Create, destroy and everything inbetween.
Games like WoW have no endgame. Its just more of the same. I realy would have liked to have tried Shadowbane, but they wont accept my credit card for some reason (im in Australia).
Hi, all. I just joined up and already I'm seeing topics of interest. Very cool!
On the skills system vs. class system question, it occurs to me that in his arguments, Garrett Fuller makes two important assumptions that deserve to be questioned.
1. "The most important element of MMORPGs is character development. After all this is how players interact, represent, and really enjoy the game."
2. Every example he game of how class systems work well was directly related to combat gameplay.
Let's look at that first assumption, that all MMORPGs are supposed to be about character growth. Says who?
This belief that what players really want is to spend their time trying to level up a character to be the "best" distorts nearly every aspect of gameplay. Instead of being able to enjoy the game world and the activities therein from the moment you start playing, you're made to feel that your character is incomplete, that you're not as good as you should be, and that you won't be effective until you max out your character.
So you grind, and you grind, and you grind, ignoring all the content around you that doesn't apply directly to levelling up. Instead of playing your character, you spend a week or a month "working" to make your character playable.
And then one lovely day you finally get there -- you reach the highest level. Well, now what? Now you're in a character growth game that no longer offers you any character growth opportunities. You may be able to go on raids to improve your gear with epic stuff, but how long will that interest you? Do you feel like waiting around until the developers raise the "best" level by 10 levels just so you can jump back on that treadmill?
The alternative is a game that's not about character growth, but is instead about enjoying all the content of the game world. In this alternative, you give your character all of his or her skills during character creation. The moment you finish creating your character and step into the game world you're playing a complete character. You're immediately ready to do anything that character can do. And what sets you apart from other players in capabilities is not how fast you can level up, but how well you play your character from Day One.
Maybe this isn't really a better approach than Yet Another character growth game... but isn't it worth trying just in case it does work better?
(Note, by the way, that this isn't a new idea. Pen-and-paper RPGs like Traveller used this approach to great effect. It's time to see it in MMORPGs!)
Now, as for the second assumption, that classes are about combat... again, why assume this?
Actually, I think there's something valid about this assumption. Folks who enjoy combat more than other kinds of gameplay (such as socializing or building or exploring) definitely do seem to like knowing what roles they're expected to play. It's a utilitarian approach -- the faster you can figure out what your job is, the better you can do it, the easier it is to find groups who need your particular skills, and the more value you are to the groups you join.
The other side of this assumption is the problem. Why assume that just because classes work for combat players that every other kind of player needs classes as well?
Where is it written that a MMORPG can't have a dual approach? Let players who enjoy combat have well-defined classes, each of which fills the now well-worn roles: tank, nuker, healer, etc. And let players who prefer other kinds of gameplay enjoy a skills system that lets them build their characters from the ground up.
The downside of this is that it's more complicated for a developer to maintain two different schemes for accomplishing the same goal. "Inconsistent" usually equals "hard to maintain."
Best case, the class system extends the skills system in a coherent way. Worst case, the class systems and skills systems are separate. OK -- so be it. Wouldn't it be worth the extra effort to design and maintain this code if it winds up making gameplay more fun for all of your players?
And as a final option, if you're just determined to make every character fill a predefined role, you could always have an extra option by which your players would be required to pick a displayable gameplay style from a dropdown list:
Tank
Nuker
Healer
Sneak
Crafter
Entertainer
Explorer
Helper
Hunter
Generalist
(etc.)
This would allow players to decide for themselves what role they want to play, rather than living with whatever role is generated for them by their choices of learned skills.
All I ask is that our characters are able to learn those skills during character creation.
its obvious that skill system will bring less specialized players = all players not the best in healing not the best in fighting & not the best in other supportig ... but good in a bit of all
if i make a group of friends 1 specialized in healing 2 others in fighting & 1 other in magic i'd own that group of So-So players cus they wanted to have melee + healing together
therefore, just to keep the mmorpgs alive its a MUST to have a class system so that if you party with a monk it willl be a monk insntead of someone claiming to be a healer but having So-So healing skills because he had to have those melee stuff too.
MMORPGs are all about playing with a community. That community gives each player a role to fulfill. By having player jobs or classes it helps people add their role to the group, realm, community and game as a whole. In Dark Age of Camelot the eight man PvP groups that ran around the realms fighting each other was one of the most dynamic parts of the game. Each class had a role and the group functioned as a strong unit together. This made players work hard to help each other win fights. In games that have classes for characters to play the group dynamic grows drastically. If you just allow open skills, then players will be using the same facilities to bring down their foes. With classes you have the tank running up and hacking away, the healer supporting the tank, the rogue or damage-per-second class attacking from the side, the mage handling crowd control. There are so many fun aspects to working as a group.
Now my argument stems from a game that is mainly class based, but each class has a set of skills only each class can do, now the whole point of even playing online games is for the interaction as well as the gameplay. Why else would we play online games unless we wanted the interaction, if not then why not just play offline games, or even console games. The game my lil brother and I both play, he tends to play more, is a cute lil animeish looking game named,"fairyland" the name itself is a little bit girlish sounding, but its a great game and is based around fairytales, hence the name, based on books and stories everyone has heard of growing up and being read too, the community on the USA svr is the biggest in all the english speaking svrs, and the game is based on class and each class has a set of skills for that class. Then there is the afk skills or better for a word work skills, now anyone can have these and make swords as a mage, can not use them but hey you wouldn't want to make them anyways, they tend to be heavy LOL since u have a bp weight and so forth. Or like you can make your own potions for healing mp/hp, for those times u dont have a healer friend with you, as well as npc healers who charge according to your max mp/hp and how much is loss and needed to replenish. I play this game strictly for the online community that is welcoming to all new players, its a lil of both skill as well as class in one game.
In a single player RPG I prefer an open skill-based system without restrictions of any kind. There's a need for specialized roles in an MMO though, so that every player has something unique to contribute to a group. My preference is a hybrid system that provides a basic template without actually restricting the player's choices. Maybe a rogue gets his class abilities at a reduced cost, but can still learn magic or healing or whatever with a more significant investment. I think this works best if the player has limited resources to devote to his abilities, so he can choose between a total specialist or a jack of all trades, but master of none.
SWG, for all its faults, had a great skill system. With the new NGE players are forced into very specialized roles. Gone are the days when my smuggler could work on his own ship but still be handy with a pistol. Now it's one or the other.
Not everyone plays MMORPGs strictly for the "MMO" aspect. I enjoy the escapism of losing myself in virtual worlds. Being told I can't wear a particular shirt or hold a certain weapon or learn a desired skill limits my ability to create the character I want, which limits the way I interact with the game world. It kills the immersiveness of it for me.
Originally posted by Flatfingers Let's look at that first assumption, that all MMORPGs are supposed to be about character growth. Says who? This belief that what players really want is to spend their time trying to level up a character to be the "best" distorts nearly every aspect of gameplay. Instead of being able to enjoy the game world and the activities therein from the moment you start playing, you're made to feel that your character is incomplete, that you're not as good as you should be, and that you won't be effective until you max out your character.
MMO's are about character growth, that doesn't mean levels it means advancement. A game that progresses nowhere isn't a game whats the challenge in killing a big monster that a newb can kill from the get go, a game has to have challenge.
Some people like the grind and savor the high end raiding, and thats what they like. Some like to sit in a town and socialize all day, but why you would pay $15 dollars a month to chat with a bunch of people is beyond me. Some like to see all content and discover new things. You may believe that people don't enjoy their playstyle, but you'd be wrong(otherwise why would they play that way). If you think you aren't effective till you max out your character, thats on you, no one else. If you can't find a way to enjoy the game, then you probably should find a new one.
As far as hitting max level and advancement, games have alternate advancements, such as eq1 has a ton of aa to fill in, would take years to max it out. However before then you get another set of aa from a new expansion.
Theres a saying i'm probably going to botch it but it goes something like " A customer doesn't konw what they want, you have to tell them what they want" I see alot of people screaming for a pure skill system, but they just don't do well (that does not mean they aren't played, just that they don't do as well as class system mmo's). So most games adopt a variation of a class system, if people would stop being so adamant about all or nothing, they might compromise. I prefer a hybrid system, i just don't trust a fellow player, unless i know them, to make the right choices in character development, but with a hybrid system I at least know the role they will play, how they advance beyond that, i don't care, more power to you. If you want to be a Mage/warrior go for it, at least i know you'll have mage dps.
I like raiding and pvp, but pvp should be a close second to pve content, otherwise you are just making a guildwars clone. A pvp based game is really the only way i see a skill system being effectively utilized.
Why? Because in a perfect MMO, it would have to be skill based. As for what is currently out there/has been out there, I definetly have to go with class based.
UO was a joke how much tamers and mages were overpowered.
SWG was ridiculous. Plain and simply ridiculous. I remember being a Smuggler/Pistoleer and being worthless until I picked up creature handling. Then they nerfed creature handing, and I can became worthless again.
In a class system like WoW, I love it. I can take multiple roles in a party based on what is needed, from DPS to tank to healer, the talent customization, warrior stances, little things like that give dynamic variety to each situation. True, in the higher end content, you're pretty much stuck to one role in group play. However in solo play, you still have the freedom of versitility no matter what class you play.
As I said before, in a perfect MMO, it would be a skill based system. Problem is, it is MUCH easier to balance out 9 classes then it is to balance 30+ skills or whatever. SWG and WoW proved that.
In a perfect MMO (IMO), you have 4-5 skill "slots" to fill with the abilities of your choosing. Within each slot you'd put a specific skill set. Within the skill set, there would be a multitude of different skills, some more general, some very specific (i.e. per weapon, per spell).
This would allow you create what ever kind of character you wanted, and then specialize or generalize within your characters mold. You'd probably need like 15-20 skill sets, not impossible to balance, but not as limiting as 9 classes.
For instance... In your four "slots" you'd have something like -
Originally posted by Typhone OH one other thing Balance is a fallacy and what ruins many great game in a skill based system you need no balance its self balancing, add more skills or better wepons the skills never need to be changed for balance wondrous variety will kill any balance conflicts any day of the week.
So True! Balance is even worse in class-based games [WoW Shamans]
I'm not sure that skills are "self balancing", but with a wide range of skills and equipment and good game design, skill-based is far better balanced. For example, for hand-to-hand combat SMG's should rule; for close range, shotguns or assault rifles on automatic fire; for short range, assault rifles again; for medium range a more traditional rifle [M-1 garand] and for long range, a sniper rifle with proper scope. One basic skill - Firearms; three skill branches - SMG, Shotgun, Rifle; even a few specializations - automatic fire, single shot, three round burst, scope use. More skills = More Balance! [caveat: IFF encounters, etc can happen at each of those ranges... that's a design problem, not a balance problem!]
> Variety in game play - repeating the same activities becomes just as boring in a mmorpg as it is in rl. In skill based games such as Horizons and Saga of Ryzom, when u tire of one activity you engage in another . . . instead of looking for a new game devs take note . At minimum, a game needs to offer me the ability to both fight and craft so when I tire of one I can do the other, and my sub fees go and will continue to go to the games that give me the widest range of activities to pursue.
> INCREASED capacity to group. There seems to be a fear or supposition that if ppl multi-class the basic human desire to socialize will be lost and mmorpgs will become overrun with silent soloists. Is a nonsense. Game mechanics don't have to force ppl to socialize, we socialize because it's fun, and multi-classing enables ppl to group more than class based systems, as a multi-skilled player can assume a miss role in a group - no more standing around lf a healer, or whatver class is missing to put together a team.
> Related to the above is the capacity to solo. Many ppl who love mmorpgs have rl commitments that restrict the length of time they can play per session and it's no fun at all to spend it lfg. Of course everyone did some medic in SWG, as u couldn't solo without it and ppl need to have that option so they can play the game they pay for when no teams are around.
> Time looks after uberness, which is also often put forward as a reason to restrict skills. We can only do one thing at a time - can't cast a spell, heal, weild a weapon in the same instant. And if being able to switch between them in a particular fight gives an advantage, great - longer sub fees while we all level more skills - and more choices and strategy and things to experiment with that make fighting more interesting and a whole lot more fun for a whole lot longer. All a game needs are some mega targets that can't be solo-ed and u have ur forced grouping, but other than that, let us have fun experimenting and playing with the fun toys you develop .
Balance isn't that hard to accomplish. Just because the games so far have had trouble balancing skill sets/classes doesn't mean much. A few notes about this.....
Most games out there took the "cut them off at the knees" approach to balancing. This was like saying "we aren't going to try to balance, we'll just kill you instead".
WoW has a problem with balance right now, but they'll make a good adjustment some time soon and ease back on the Shamans a little, and they'll be closer to balanced. They had a similar problem with other classes, and were able to knock them back a step without cutting their knees off.
UO almost had balance at one time, if you take out tamers and at that time Bards. For a skill based game, they had fighters of various weapons and mages balanced almost to a tee. They had made magical paralize cost a little more mana and take a bit longer to cast, they had balanced different weapon types, balanced various armors with a speed handicap (I think, trying to remember how armor worked at the time). If anything was a little off (again, not considering taming and bards), it was that dexers had just a tad too much speed. One "tic" probably would have fixed it. Their speed was just enough to give an advantage over slower weapons that did more damage, and also they could hit fast enough that mages couldn't get off any of the better spells.
(BTW, this was just before UO came out the colored armor/ores that gave different strengths to armor and weapons. And before they added the lumberjack axe damage bonus.)
Now about those tamers.....how the hell does anyone figure that a player can tame a Dragon, still use other skills, and stay balanced? This is assuming Dragons are more powerfull than a dog! Players want too much, and marketting genious's are more than glad to screw up their games to grab those extra sales.
Balance can be achieved in either type of system. But it requires that flashy, ultrapowerful things like taming dragons are either left out, or require extra balance in the form of requirements that limit the power. Persoanlly, while I think this can be done under the right game build, I'd much prefer that such a thing just be left out. Let Dragons be the powerful nemesis that they should be.
Finally, since balance can be achieved, this is a moot point, in my opinion, in a skill vs. class based conversation. It doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is. It can be done and should be. Those game makers make a pile of money off us players, and we deserve balance no matter how much work it takes. But the fact is, it has alot more to do with some good ol' common sense than heavy loads of work.
Comments
I don't know if this has been said already...but yeah about balance, class systems can be and have been in nearly every mmo...imbalanced to some degree. balance has less to do with what system is used (class or skill) and everything to do with dev skill. Since classes will be unbalanced the class that offers the most power is the one most players will gravitate towards, at least in PvP. The same can happen in skill systems.
I prefer skill over class because....well since things will probably become imbalanced regardless, I may as well have the freedom to be imbalanced in a way that fits my personality and playstyle. The cool thing about skill also is the fact that if a build becomes too uber the devs can easily introduce new skills for counterbuilds that arent uber but counter the uber build or the uber skills..thus bringing back some degree of improved balance. Though to be honest balance in this context is something I don't much believe in...as long as there are untested combinations and variables, it's impossible to achieve. So might as well just let players be how they want.
I also support some limits as well. Such as a maximum on how many special skills one may possess to keep players from mastering every possible skill in the game.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I lean more toward skill based systems. With that now said here is my shade of grey.
I like games where you get skills by working skills. If you get the initial training for a skill or spell then train it you get better at it. This is where a class can come into play. The starting class allots you certine benifits to abilities skill or spells and the appropriate equipment and training to advance those skills within that class. If you wish to advance out side of that class you must buy the appropriate equipment and seek any training needed to grow in those areas. The second role of the class would be access to the most advanced skills within a class would be limited to those where are adept at the particular type of skills.
For example: As it was stated in the debate "Gandolf was a Greatsword weilding wizard why can't i be?" I agree. So you need to focus in a caster class and a fighter class. But what you start as molds the final product. If you start as a fighter in the end you will be a goog fighter with some impresive spells. If you start as the caster you have massive spells and can hold your own in a fight.
This style of charachter advancement is great for soloing and can be honed for team work as well on the larger missions. In these types of games team work should incorperate some sort of benifits to help it as an option but not be the only option.
A free for all system isn't what people are thinking it is going to be, you'll be limited in your choices. You won't be able to master every skill tree, so templates will come about. Templates = Classes. People will gravitate towards the best template for the type of character they want, healer, warrior, mage etc. So you end up with a class system regardless, sure some spells will be your own but thats the same with all the other mmo's, you had you base skills and whatever spells you wanted to load.
Like I stated previously, a class system with skill subtrees would work great. It defines the role of a character but allows customizablity (is that a word?). So if somone is labeled healer, you know they have a strong line of heal spells, and will fill the role of a healer in a group.
To those who say a skill system isn't hard, let me ask you how many times have you grouped with somone in a class system who sucked? To many to count for me, now think about your groups in a skill based system... I shudder just thinking about it, and once again people will create templates, and guilds will only invite certain templates into the guild. I've seen it, and you've all seen it to some extent. A skill system gravitates towards a class system every time, because its the easiest to balance and the easiest to rely upon.
I'd like to correct the guy about the best armor and weapons being the heaviest, thats not true. It depends on the way it was crafted, the bulky iron armor that the knights used wasn't the best type of armor that could have been made, there is a technique i think its called "water down" That creates a lighter better armor. Japan was also making swords far superior to knights swords possibly hundreds of years before them, and they weren't the huge bulky things like in braveheart. Not to mention technique comes into it as well.
So let me ask which you'd prefer:
Class and skill system are self explanatory, but the class/skill system is like what i explained above: You choose a class, healer, warrior, mage, hunter, etc, and gain a defining role, and then you can choose a secondary skill tree of your on choosing, with a possible third skill set later on down the road. It allows people to know what you are, and allows everyone to customize how they want. Examples: Warrior Class then chooses a healing skill tree = Paladin, Or Healer class choose a line of fire spells = inquisitor, etc A pure healer can choose a line of buff spells, making them essentially a cleric or templar. (but i'll leave the creation details to devs, you get the basic idea)
sicsyco, I'm glad that you're happy playing in all those little boxes with their different coloured bells and whistles that your favourite MMO gives you to play in.
However I, amongst others, like to make our own boxes and play outside them.
There is no more anarchy in a skill based system than there is in a class (and thus, by default, level) based system. Each an every game has certain common elements and I'll focus on the most common, combat, so that I can show you where class and skill differ.
Combat is made up of certain types of events, lets call them Initiative, Ranged Attack, Melee Attack, Ranged Dodge , Melee Dodge , Damage, Damage Capacity, Damage Resistance and Recovery.
In a class based system a characters abilities in these events are predefined by their class. FoEx an archer would start off with a good initiative, a good ranged attack and dodge, poor melee attack and dodge, and just be okay in everything else with the exception of damage resistance because armor would get in the way.
A tanker would have an okay initiative, poor ranged abilities, good melee abilities a high damage resistance, capacity and recovery.
In a skill based system a character could choose their ability in each of the events, starting off okay and picking and choosing their abilities according to their tastes. A Shield skill FoEx would provide a bit more ranged dodge, quite a bit melee dodge and some damage resistance and these would improve with use. Or you could have a general Dodge wich improves both but doesn't improve melee dodge as much as shield (but more so for ranged; improving both the same), or you could have a skill that favours ranged dodge over melee dodge. In a class based system you're stuck with what the Devs give you.
Also skills will get in each others way; sneaking in armor is a no-no, the same is true with berserking. You can't pick locks with gloves on but using a bow without them is painful (but that's items...) A better example would be backstabbing when berserked because you're in an uncontrolled rage not condusive to pick a spot for a well placed blow, so you can't use them together. IRL the martial arts Iron Hand technique destroys finemotor control in the effected hand. Bye bye lockpicking, speed typing, fletching, electronic engineering, caligraphy, and so on. However you have a built-in mace that doesn't encumber you, cant be easily disarmed and is capable of blocking other weapons.
Likewise certain skills would come with taboos, the breaking of which reduces the effectiveness of the skill. Kill an animal and not use the carcus for food or raw materials and the nature spirits may not let you cast theri magic as easily. In a class based system these taboos are either hardwired and your character cannot actually break them, or they exist only as flavour text and have no real in-game effect.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
Well, i voted for skill system, but what i would REALY like to see, is a mix of both. If anyone (and im sure a lot) played D&D or D&D based games (like baldurs gate or Icewind dale) knows what i mean. For example, make classes but let us change it anytime we want, keeping the skills we learned from the old one and start learning new ones. (and i hope DDO will let me do it... oh how i hope it will...) This way, all players could customize thair chars tha way thay want... A warrior who specializes in xbows, or mage wearing plate and wielding a sword... Any objections??
Each game does there characters and classes differently
The reason players don't like a pure class based system is it lacks collectablity to the character and the character isn't unique, but at the same time the class system allow for better game play.
So when it comes down to it a what players would like the most would be a class based system where there character was more unique and the was not just one or two choices but more along the lines of a few hundred every few so many levels so in the end you got a character thats far closer to what you want it to be but still with in the guide line of the class so when you jion a party you can just in a few words tell them you speciality and still full fill you role.
I voted Skill Based. I have too many fond memories of pre CU SWG memories (Hell even CU, but still pre NGE).
The skill system gave you a onnection to your chracter, that chracter really was an extension of you becuase you could tailor your chracter into what you wanted it to be. Not being forced into a job or roll with the only aim is to reach the next level or get that next peice of lewt.
FFXi seems to sit somewhere in the middle. Everything about it is level based but I personally never feel like i'm actully grinding for levels, unlike WoW or EQ
SWG is a horrid example, I played at the release, and a friend of mine played the whole time and their skill system was horrible. Not to mention everyone became clones, following templates and essentially becoming part of the "class" system that you disliked. Sure you could pick your own skill trees but when it came down to it, you didn't vary much from the best game templates (well unless you didn't know what you were doing). I tried to get a refund from sony because the game sucked so bad, they just laughed at me. Thats for another debate though, haha.
A hybrid system fills both needs, most games are going to use a class/level based system regardless. Although they are leaning more to customization, so I wouldn't be suprised if you saw a hybrid system becoming more predominant. Any game aiming at alot of high level content is going to have to rely on characters with defining roles to make encounters challenging.
Honestly most people who prefer a skill system don't realize their end game turns into a class system any way. A true skill system wouldn't have a level system either, so you would have no clue as to the skill of your fellow team mate. You would be finding groups by saying "need healer with 1000+ hp heal" Or tank with 2500 hp+. Its just not a good system unless you want a pvp system without alot of high end raiding stuff. You can't design challenging content on the hopes that somone created a certain template.
The best skill system out there supposedly is EVE, which from what friends tell me is a major time sink, worse then grinding levels (I played in beta, and could take it or leave it, didn't really stand out to me). Which i'm not complaining about, but people think a level grind is bad, try spending three months developing your character before you can even attempt cool things(or as somone said above 3 months before you can effectively pvp).
SWG is a horrid example, I played at the release, and a friend of mine played the whole time and their skill system was horrible. Not to mention everyone became clones, following templates and essentially becoming part of the "class" system that you disliked. Sure you could pick your own skill trees but when it came down to it, you didn't vary much from the best game templates (well unless you didn't know what you were doing). I tried to get a refund from sony because the game sucked so bad, they just laughed at me. Thats for another debate though, haha.
A hybrid system fills both needs, most games are going to use a class/level based system regardless. Although they are leaning more to customization, so I wouldn't be suprised if you saw a hybrid system becoming more predominant. Any game aiming at alot of high level content is going to have to rely on characters with defining roles to make encounters challenging.
Honestly most people who prefer a skill system don't realize their end game turns into a class system any way. A true skill system wouldn't have a level system either, so you would have no clue as to the skill of your fellow team mate. You would be finding groups by saying "need healer with 1000+ hp heal" Or tank with 2500 hp+. Its just not a good system unless you want a pvp system without alot of high end raiding stuff. You can't design challenging content on the hopes that somone created a certain template.
The best skill system out there supposedly is EVE, which from what friends tell me is a major time sink, worse then grinding levels (I played in beta, and could take it or leave it, didn't really stand out to me). Which i'm not complaining about, but people think a level grind is bad, try spending three months developing your character before you can even attempt cool things(or as somone said above 3 months before you can effectively pvp).
Isn't Heal based on something like MND or INT? Why would your skill choices have any affect at all on things decided by your race and armor? FFXI demonstrated it better than any fantasy game up to date. TaruTarus are great as mages, but a TaruTaru ninja tanking drove me crazy because 3 hits=death. You should know your limits before you ask to join a party, or fix whatever's wrong at least. Would be nice to build off of that example, with something like what someone else mentioned, the class change system that allows you to keep some your old skills as you go.
And I thought SWG was balanced in the same way WoW tried to do it. A pistoleer would probably get owned by a rifleman because of his damage and range advantage. A rifleman doesn't have enough snares and stuns to keep a jedi from running up and slicing them to pieces, whereas, a pistoleer would have no problem running circles around that same jedi. You had choices to make, there were FOTM templates, but there wasn't really a best there I don't think.
Can you show me a Game that has been out for 6 months that has a skill based system that a majority of people aren't playing with basically the same skill set?
Every skill based game I know about UO, AC1, SWG, etc. Always ends up with a uber combat template. That if you are like me and you don't follow and you end up leveling way slower or end up being PvP fodder. I'd like a skill bases system, I have just never seen a balanced skilled based system. So if you can find one I'll consider it, until then give me a balanced game with classes. If the game is not balanced it's just not fun to play.
Arthor
I voted for a skill based MMORPG and I have several reasons I voted the way I did but first I'll give you a little background on my experience.
I have been playing MMO's since UO was in beta and EQ was on the horizon. I chose UO over EQ at first or really it was chosen for me as a Birthday gift. I played UO for about 6 years and then moved on when they split worlds to Non-PvP. I did not leave just because of that though...I left because MMO's where the next big thing and developers all ove the world began to jump on the bandwagon and I was extactic to give the ALL a try. I was a student at the time so I could only afford on Montly account at a time so I moved to Earth and Beyond for a Sci-Fi twist to MMO's. I played that MMO for about 5 months...long enough to reach the limit of a class/limited based system and have nothing left to do.
I moved to SWG next which was a great game with diverse skills for each individual class but the nerf game played by the developers got to me along with the LONG runs to from place to place got to me very quickly. It showed promise but I did not play it for long once the nerf gun came out the first time and I found my once powerful caracter barly able to step out of the city anymore.
I then moved to AC2 which was another class/limited based MMO. I liked the game and advanced quickly but soon found myself hunting in one spot killing MOB's 10 times my level just to girnd as fast as possible. Then they Nerfed all skills/classes...then nerfed again...and again... I just got tired of working hard to improve a character just to get to high levels and have them nerf my sills. Needless to say I quit that game but I will say I REALLY liked the idea of a tech building stationary artilary.
The next game I wanted to try was EVE Online since it promised a better system than EnB and broad possibilities. I started playing in the beta and found that the game itself wasn't really ready for the public but they published it anyway. The game was EXTREAMLY difficult to be anything but a miner unless you were lucky enough to get into a large Corp with great teamwork. I quickly quit that MMO since it needed work...with plans to come back in a few months and give it a try again.
Next I went to FFXI another class/limited MMO. I loved the new take on graphics and improvements but eventually quit playing the game because of the time it took to travel the world. Runing and runing and runing and runing just to get to an area where you could actually DO ANYTHING was getting really old...also I did not like the limitation of the classes.
I then moved to DAOC which was an old MMO at this time that had pleanty of time to get their system right...so I thought. This was another class/limited MMO much like AC2 where you got somone of high level to help you grind to higher levels since the grind is all there was to do in the game and that gets old. I quickly got bored with the game and limitations.
I waited impatiently for the NEXT BIG THING...WOW!! It was so exciting to think of a great RTS becoming an MMO. Once it finally went gold I Joined the game. I was shocked by what I first saw...thousands of players in one area at a time! The larges gathering of players in an MMO I've ever seen. The game showed promise, but quickly I advanced my main character to it's max and found that there was nothing left to do...but they promised battlegrounds! I was excited about that so I stuck around while they developed it. Once they got it up and running it was the BEST! I had more fun than any other MMO for 2 days...that's when the Battlegrounds flopped...the Horde stopped going and therfore the battlegound was no more...so I moved on.
I went back to EVE to see how the progress had developed and to my suprise the game was excellent. I was able to advance to better ships quickly enough and did not have to do any boring mining or building. I jumped straight into fighting and was quickly approached by a corp that proved to be the best thing to happen to me in the game. I quickly got to BS status and found that there was not much else to do other than PvP and that was extreamly dangerous and tremendously costly to loose expensive ships. I soon quit EVE with the invite back to UO...the only MMO I played for more than a year and still my favorite.
I currently play UO now and with the changes they have made make it the BEST MMO on the market with a skill based system. Players no longer focus on magery since they created other ways to travel the world without recall. They changed almost every aspect of the game that I remembered. I was pleasently supprised.
Now, obviously I have given examples and played all types of MMO's on the market. Obviously a skill based system IS the best for an MMO! EVE Online and UO are both excellent games both based on skills. EVE is still a limited game since you have to choose a race to start with and that limits for the most part what ships you can fly...however, they do have the option to learn the skills to fly another races ships. The main issue of that game is the penalty and cost for PvP...credits run that system more than anything else and getting massive amounts of credits takes a LONG LONG time.
Every class based MMO out there has more balance issues that I can shake a stick at and once a single class is found to be the most powerful class and thousands of players flock to it the game developers NERF that class as their solution to the problem. Therfore, class based systems without an accompaning skill based system that encompasses all abilities will be a Nerf infested game and not worth playing.
I do not think that this Class/Skills debate is the REAL issue though. I think it has to do with giving each player the ability to have fun in the game without the feeling like they are missing out on something because they aren't this "Class" or don't have this "Skill". If an MMO focuses on BALANCE they can have both/either of these as their basis of character development. Here is what I think all MMO's need to allow all of their players...but this list is not exclussive and I may be missing some things...but it is a broad view of what they would need.
1. FAST way of travel within the world. UO is the best MMO out there where this is concerned. WOW should rethink the stupid Griffon rides and it would be much improved...it is a world of magic isn't it! Where are the NPC teleporters? (or simply a checkbox to turn off the damn animation of flying from one place to another)
2. Balanced Self healing!!! Every player out ther at one point or another must solo and MOST players perfer to solo play the game to a certain point. Grouping is great but devoting time and attention to grouping is sometimes a bother to some players. Granted I do think that Healer classes should have an advantage here...but not one that makes everyone want to be this class.
3. Balanced PvP and PvE!!! Enough said...there should never ever be one class or skill set that is dominate on the battlefield.
4. Excellent Player based marketing system. Be it auction houses, or vendors.
5. Excellent diverse Crafting system. Much like UO or even SWG.
I want to clear up on thing...I am not against a class baseed system. I loved to play some of the class based MMO's I just think that they limit their game to a grind to level up to the maximum level achievable and once there players get bored. If a Calss based system mixed it up with skills much like EVE did with Race and skills that game would have promise and a chance to keep players envolved beyond the maximum capped level. Sorry for such a long post and please forgive any clerical errors I may have missed.
There are things I like about both types however the implementation of them is key.
I really like being a part of the community and feeling like you are an important cog in the framework. For this I think a class system works best because people are seen for what they are, based on character type. Putting together a well balanced team is fairly straightforward although there are always some folks who don't know how to play their type.
The best class systems will allow a bunch of customizations within the classes and that allows for more individuality. So far this seems to me as the best solution out there.
Skill based systems should be the ultimate in customization and are nice because you are not tied down to a box of rules based on class. That said, it sure does blow chunks when the majority of folks gravitate to the same set of skills. This happens because the challenges within the game are not broad enough. When everyone is almost the same it takes the signifigance of your character out of the game and for me, that means I don't play anymore.
I played SWG for a while but I HATED the way from week to week the players around me where changing what they were. One week they were an uber armorsmith and the next time you called them up they were a martial arts expert and couldn't make armor anymore. I liked the idea that you can't be all things to everyone but the way this was implemented it just meant you couldn't count on anymore from week to week.
I would like a skills based system where you couldn't keep changing what you were over and over again and more importantly all the skills were needed. The problem is with most skill systems there are just not enough IMPORTANT skills out there. If team management skills where as important as axe wielding but you couldn't do both at the same time then both skills would be needed in a team and that would mean characters with various skill sets. Thus, you build community and value for each member.
You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too. That just encourages solo-ism which if you really want that, then go by a box game and leave rpg's alone. The point of RPG is to play a Role and if your role is unimportant or filled by 98 percent of the players there just isn't much point.
Group --- I prefer class (specialised your aspect)
Solo --- I prefer skills (generalist you can master everything)
Interdependances gameplays --- Skills, if I have to do every activity in the dictionnary because the devs think it is immersive, there is no sense in limiting me to a class, which is a specialist.
Independant gameplays --- Either, class would be favored, but for solo skills would skill make sense although it would not be necessary.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Can you show me a Game that has been out for 6 months that has a skill based system that a majority of people aren't playing with basically the same skill set?
Every skill based game I know about UO, AC1, SWG, etc. Always ends up with a uber combat template. That if you are like me and you don't follow and you end up leveling way slower or end up being PvP fodder. I'd like a skill bases system, I have just never seen a balanced skilled based system. So if you can find one I'll consider it, until then give me a balanced game with classes. If the game is not balanced it's just not fun to play.
Arthor
There are no PERFECT MMO's that are skill based or class based yet. But UO is now diverse enough and somewhat balanced in their skills now that not everyone is a mage. There is still a strong desire for being a mage but now the Paladin template is sought after, along with the powerful tamer classes, or combinations of them. The good thing about this skill based system is that no TWO characters are exactly alike even though they may seem the same they have many differences in skills and equipment. Before it was impossible not to find a mage character in UO.
What I want you to do for me is point out ANY BALANCED class based system in the MMO universe!!! There are NONE that I know of currently but would love to play one soon that can keep my interest once I have hit the level cap. Diverse systems with skills as their base will always have more appeal to the long term player types like miself.
Yea all true sicsyco. Although eve wasnt strickly a skill system i would like, since it is based on time and not on use. I too tried it and quit because it was gonna take a month b4 i could get a decent trading ship.
I think what the real problem is whether or not the game focuses on the leveling or increase of skill. As opposted to an actual end game. By that i mean is it the journey or the actual game world you think is more important to an MMOG. For me its the world.
And this, for me, goes to a core question. Why play An MMOG? Simple i want to be able to own a piece of the world. Create, destroy and everything inbetween.
Games like WoW have no endgame. Its just more of the same. I realy would have liked to have tried Shadowbane, but they wont accept my credit card for some reason (im in Australia).
Hi, all. I just joined up and already I'm seeing topics of interest. Very cool!
On the skills system vs. class system question, it occurs to me that in his arguments, Garrett Fuller makes two important assumptions that deserve to be questioned.
1. "The most important element of MMORPGs is character development. After all this is how players interact, represent, and really enjoy the game."
2. Every example he game of how class systems work well was directly related to combat gameplay.
Let's look at that first assumption, that all MMORPGs are supposed to be about character growth. Says who?
This belief that what players really want is to spend their time trying to level up a character to be the "best" distorts nearly every aspect of gameplay. Instead of being able to enjoy the game world and the activities therein from the moment you start playing, you're made to feel that your character is incomplete, that you're not as good as you should be, and that you won't be effective until you max out your character.
So you grind, and you grind, and you grind, ignoring all the content around you that doesn't apply directly to levelling up. Instead of playing your character, you spend a week or a month "working" to make your character playable.
And then one lovely day you finally get there -- you reach the highest level. Well, now what? Now you're in a character growth game that no longer offers you any character growth opportunities. You may be able to go on raids to improve your gear with epic stuff, but how long will that interest you? Do you feel like waiting around until the developers raise the "best" level by 10 levels just so you can jump back on that treadmill?
The alternative is a game that's not about character growth, but is instead about enjoying all the content of the game world. In this alternative, you give your character all of his or her skills during character creation. The moment you finish creating your character and step into the game world you're playing a complete character. You're immediately ready to do anything that character can do. And what sets you apart from other players in capabilities is not how fast you can level up, but how well you play your character from Day One.
Maybe this isn't really a better approach than Yet Another character growth game... but isn't it worth trying just in case it does work better?
(Note, by the way, that this isn't a new idea. Pen-and-paper RPGs like Traveller used this approach to great effect. It's time to see it in MMORPGs!)
Now, as for the second assumption, that classes are about combat... again, why assume this?
Actually, I think there's something valid about this assumption. Folks who enjoy combat more than other kinds of gameplay (such as socializing or building or exploring) definitely do seem to like knowing what roles they're expected to play. It's a utilitarian approach -- the faster you can figure out what your job is, the better you can do it, the easier it is to find groups who need your particular skills, and the more value you are to the groups you join.
The other side of this assumption is the problem. Why assume that just because classes work for combat players that every other kind of player needs classes as well?
Where is it written that a MMORPG can't have a dual approach? Let players who enjoy combat have well-defined classes, each of which fills the now well-worn roles: tank, nuker, healer, etc. And let players who prefer other kinds of gameplay enjoy a skills system that lets them build their characters from the ground up.
The downside of this is that it's more complicated for a developer to maintain two different schemes for accomplishing the same goal. "Inconsistent" usually equals "hard to maintain."
Best case, the class system extends the skills system in a coherent way. Worst case, the class systems and skills systems are separate. OK -- so be it. Wouldn't it be worth the extra effort to design and maintain this code if it winds up making gameplay more fun for all of your players?
And as a final option, if you're just determined to make every character fill a predefined role, you could always have an extra option by which your players would be required to pick a displayable gameplay style from a dropdown list:
This would allow players to decide for themselves what role they want to play, rather than living with whatever role is generated for them by their choices of learned skills.
All I ask is that our characters are able to learn those skills during character creation.
Comments? Fire away!
--Flatfingers
this is so not good,
its obvious that skill system will bring less specialized players = all players not the best in healing not the best in fighting & not the best in other supportig ...
but good in a bit of all
if i make a group of friends 1 specialized in healing 2 others in fighting & 1 other in magic
i'd own that group of So-So players cus they wanted to have melee + healing together
therefore, just to keep the mmorpgs alive its a MUST to have a class system
so that if you party with a monk it willl be a monk
insntead of someone claiming to be a healer but having So-So healing skills because he had to have those melee stuff too.
MMORPGs are all about playing with a community. That community gives each player a role to fulfill. By having player jobs or classes it helps people add their role to the group, realm, community and game as a whole. In Dark Age of Camelot the eight man PvP groups that ran around the realms fighting each other was one of the most dynamic parts of the game. Each class had a role and the group functioned as a strong unit together. This made players work hard to help each other win fights. In games that have classes for characters to play the group dynamic grows drastically. If you just allow open skills, then players will be using the same facilities to bring down their foes. With classes you have the tank running up and hacking away, the healer supporting the tank, the rogue or damage-per-second class attacking from the side, the mage handling crowd control. There are so many fun aspects to working as a group.
Now my argument stems from a game that is mainly class based, but each class has a set of skills only each class can do, now the whole point of even playing online games is for the interaction as well as the gameplay. Why else would we play online games unless we wanted the interaction, if not then why not just play offline games, or even console games. The game my lil brother and I both play, he tends to play more, is a cute lil animeish looking game named,"fairyland" the name itself is a little bit girlish sounding, but its a great game and is based around fairytales, hence the name, based on books and stories everyone has heard of growing up and being read too, the community on the USA svr is the biggest in all the english speaking svrs, and the game is based on class and each class has a set of skills for that class. Then there is the afk skills or better for a word work skills, now anyone can have these and make swords as a mage, can not use them but hey you wouldn't want to make them anyways, they tend to be heavy LOL since u have a bp weight and so forth. Or like you can make your own potions for healing mp/hp, for those times u dont have a healer friend with you, as well as npc healers who charge according to your max mp/hp and how much is loss and needed to replenish. I play this game strictly for the online community that is welcoming to all new players, its a lil of both skill as well as class in one game.
In a single player RPG I prefer an open skill-based system without restrictions of any kind. There's a need for specialized roles in an MMO though, so that every player has something unique to contribute to a group. My preference is a hybrid system that provides a basic template without actually restricting the player's choices. Maybe a rogue gets his class abilities at a reduced cost, but can still learn magic or healing or whatever with a more significant investment. I think this works best if the player has limited resources to devote to his abilities, so he can choose between a total specialist or a jack of all trades, but master of none.
SWG, for all its faults, had a great skill system. With the new NGE players are forced into very specialized roles. Gone are the days when my smuggler could work on his own ship but still be handy with a pistol. Now it's one or the other.
Not everyone plays MMORPGs strictly for the "MMO" aspect. I enjoy the escapism of losing myself in virtual worlds. Being told I can't wear a particular shirt or hold a certain weapon or learn a desired skill limits my ability to create the character I want, which limits the way I interact with the game world. It kills the immersiveness of it for me.
MMO's are about character growth, that doesn't mean levels it means advancement. A game that progresses nowhere isn't a game whats the challenge in killing a big monster that a newb can kill from the get go, a game has to have challenge.
Some people like the grind and savor the high end raiding, and thats what they like. Some like to sit in a town and socialize all day, but why you would pay $15 dollars a month to chat with a bunch of people is beyond me. Some like to see all content and discover new things. You may believe that people don't enjoy their playstyle, but you'd be wrong(otherwise why would they play that way). If you think you aren't effective till you max out your character, thats on you, no one else. If you can't find a way to enjoy the game, then you probably should find a new one.
As far as hitting max level and advancement, games have alternate advancements, such as eq1 has a ton of aa to fill in, would take years to max it out. However before then you get another set of aa from a new expansion.
Theres a saying i'm probably going to botch it but it goes something like " A customer doesn't konw what they want, you have to tell them what they want" I see alot of people screaming for a pure skill system, but they just don't do well (that does not mean they aren't played, just that they don't do as well as class system mmo's). So most games adopt a variation of a class system, if people would stop being so adamant about all or nothing, they might compromise. I prefer a hybrid system, i just don't trust a fellow player, unless i know them, to make the right choices in character development, but with a hybrid system I at least know the role they will play, how they advance beyond that, i don't care, more power to you. If you want to be a Mage/warrior go for it, at least i know you'll have mage dps.
I like raiding and pvp, but pvp should be a close second to pve content, otherwise you are just making a guildwars clone. A pvp based game is really the only way i see a skill system being effectively utilized.
Well, in the poll I voted Skill based system.
Why? Because in a perfect MMO, it would have to be skill based. As for what is currently out there/has been out there, I definetly have to go with class based.
UO was a joke how much tamers and mages were overpowered.
SWG was ridiculous. Plain and simply ridiculous. I remember being a Smuggler/Pistoleer and being worthless until I picked up creature handling. Then they nerfed creature handing, and I can became worthless again.
In a class system like WoW, I love it. I can take multiple roles in a party based on what is needed, from DPS to tank to healer, the talent customization, warrior stances, little things like that give dynamic variety to each situation. True, in the higher end content, you're pretty much stuck to one role in group play. However in solo play, you still have the freedom of versitility no matter what class you play.
As I said before, in a perfect MMO, it would be a skill based system. Problem is, it is MUCH easier to balance out 9 classes then it is to balance 30+ skills or whatever. SWG and WoW proved that.
In a perfect MMO (IMO), you have 4-5 skill "slots" to fill with the abilities of your choosing. Within each slot you'd put a specific skill set. Within the skill set, there would be a multitude of different skills, some more general, some very specific (i.e. per weapon, per spell).
This would allow you create what ever kind of character you wanted, and then specialize or generalize within your characters mold. You'd probably need like 15-20 skill sets, not impossible to balance, but not as limiting as 9 classes.
For instance... In your four "slots" you'd have something like -
1. Melee Combat - Specializing in Swords, 2h swords, Increased critical hits
2. Combat Tactics - Specializing in Battle Awareness, group/personal buffs, increased defense
3. Arcane Magic - Specializing in Support Magic - debuffs
4. Unarmed combat - General (worked w/melee combat) - limited Specialization in Disarm
5. Reserved for Profession - Blacksmithing
You get the idea...
That's my idea anyway.
So True! Balance is even worse in class-based games [WoW Shamans]
I'm not sure that skills are "self balancing", but with a wide range of skills and equipment and good game design, skill-based is far better balanced. For example, for hand-to-hand combat SMG's should rule; for close range, shotguns or assault rifles on automatic fire; for short range, assault rifles again; for medium range a more traditional rifle [M-1 garand] and for long range, a sniper rifle with proper scope. One basic skill - Firearms; three skill branches - SMG, Shotgun, Rifle; even a few specializations - automatic fire, single shot, three round burst, scope use. More skills = More Balance! [caveat: IFF encounters, etc can happen at each of those ranges... that's a design problem, not a balance problem!]
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
Skills based systems have a number of advantages:
> Variety in game play - repeating the same activities becomes just as boring in a mmorpg as it is in rl. In skill based games such as Horizons and Saga of Ryzom, when u tire of one activity you engage in another . . . instead of looking for a new game devs take note
. At minimum, a game needs to offer me the ability to both fight and craft so when I tire of one I can do the other, and my sub fees go and will continue to go to the games that give me the widest range of activities to pursue.
> INCREASED capacity to group. There seems to be a fear or supposition that if ppl multi-class the basic human desire to socialize will be lost and mmorpgs will become overrun with silent soloists. Is a nonsense. Game mechanics don't have to force ppl to socialize, we socialize because it's fun, and multi-classing enables ppl to group more than class based systems, as a multi-skilled player can assume a miss role in a group - no more standing around lf a healer, or whatver class is missing to put together a team.
> Related to the above is the capacity to solo. Many ppl who love mmorpgs have rl commitments that restrict the length of time they can play per session and it's no fun at all to spend it lfg. Of course everyone did some medic in SWG, as u couldn't solo without it and ppl need to have that option so they can play the game they pay for when no teams are around.
> Time looks after uberness, which is also often put forward as a reason to restrict skills. We can only do one thing at a time - can't cast a spell, heal, weild a weapon in the same instant. And if being able to switch between them in a particular fight gives an advantage, great - longer sub fees while we all level more skills
- and more choices and strategy and things to experiment with that make fighting more interesting and a whole lot more fun for a whole lot longer. All a game needs are some mega targets that can't be solo-ed and u have ur forced grouping, but other than that, let us have fun experimenting and playing with the fun toys you develop 
.
Zeka
Balance isn't that hard to accomplish. Just because the games so far have had trouble balancing skill sets/classes doesn't mean much. A few notes about this.....
Most games out there took the "cut them off at the knees" approach to balancing. This was like saying "we aren't going to try to balance, we'll just kill you instead".
WoW has a problem with balance right now, but they'll make a good adjustment some time soon and ease back on the Shamans a little, and they'll be closer to balanced. They had a similar problem with other classes, and were able to knock them back a step without cutting their knees off.
UO almost had balance at one time, if you take out tamers and at that time Bards. For a skill based game, they had fighters of various weapons and mages balanced almost to a tee. They had made magical paralize cost a little more mana and take a bit longer to cast, they had balanced different weapon types, balanced various armors with a speed handicap (I think, trying to remember how armor worked at the time). If anything was a little off (again, not considering taming and bards), it was that dexers had just a tad too much speed. One "tic" probably would have fixed it. Their speed was just enough to give an advantage over slower weapons that did more damage, and also they could hit fast enough that mages couldn't get off any of the better spells.
(BTW, this was just before UO came out the colored armor/ores that gave different strengths to armor and weapons. And before they added the lumberjack axe damage bonus.)
Now about those tamers.....how the hell does anyone figure that a player can tame a Dragon, still use other skills, and stay balanced? This is assuming Dragons are more powerfull than a dog! Players want too much, and marketting genious's are more than glad to screw up their games to grab those extra sales.
Balance can be achieved in either type of system. But it requires that flashy, ultrapowerful things like taming dragons are either left out, or require extra balance in the form of requirements that limit the power. Persoanlly, while I think this can be done under the right game build, I'd much prefer that such a thing just be left out. Let Dragons be the powerful nemesis that they should be.
Finally, since balance can be achieved, this is a moot point, in my opinion, in a skill vs. class based conversation. It doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is. It can be done and should be. Those game makers make a pile of money off us players, and we deserve balance no matter how much work it takes. But the fact is, it has alot more to do with some good ol' common sense than heavy loads of work.
Once upon a time....