what do you think of EQ2's graphics?

Askatan · February 2006

Originally posted by gLitterbug

Askatan - I sadly have nothing ready to show you on my part right now concerning games artwork, but if you would give me links to some of your work or anything that makes me see what kind of knowledge and skill you possess I might just realize your grandeur in the area of CG and see my errors. Or at least I could maybe understand you better.

making art and knowing about the computation of art are different kinds of things. even your defenses show a total lack of comprehension of the topic.

so even IF you were a great CG artist, which is highly doubtful , you still wouldnt know anything about making it real time.

every USER has the right to say: I dont like that or that looks stupid.

but you are not doing that. so you have no point whatsoever.

if you DID say, I think it looks bad, then you would only have a point, if you would be critizising things THAT ARE SOLVABLE at decent speed in real time. the best proof that it is not, is that no other game has such detailed graphics.

you cannot generally claim something is BAD if all what you are saying is: computergames look awful. and THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

name a game that looks more realistic, or even has similar specs as EQ2. if that game would look much better and would run as well as EQ2 does on old hardware, THEN you might have a point.

complaining that it is not flawless is just arrogant (because you have no idea how much time it takes to check every fu_c**** tree in the gameworld) and it is just not realistic. every game I played has many texture mapping problems.

that is just how games with real time 3D graphics are. flawed.

I am content if it looks great. you are only content if you can flame in a forum about a game that you

a) have NEVER even played

b) have NEVER even seen many screenshots from or videos (proven in my above posting)

c) obviously JUST DONT LIKE

just be quiet and cut your ego some slack

Askatan

Originally posted by gLitterbug

Ah another argument-shattering reply. This time with a screenshot of absolute stunning beauty. While I won't say that it is as ugly as other things I have seen from EQ2 it is a good example to take and explain things that are bad from an artists perspective.
you are not an artist nor have you played the game, as you are admitting here
The color scheme seems pretty good in this screenshot I have to say. But the tree's trunk behind the character already shows bad mapping, even mirrored one.
actually there are a lot of texture mapping screwups in EQ2, the tree texture is well done. the mrrowing has NOTHING to do with bad quality, it is done by choice
Could you take me some more screenshots of trees please, I would like to see if they all share that or if they actually took some more time with others.
so you really have NEVER played the game. why do you think you have any right to take even part in this discussion? lol... you are not only a glitterqueen (me like flashy), you also are the queen of talking about things YOU HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED
The ground texture looks like something made with the Render Clouds filter in Photoshop and then the engine bump maps it. The grass sprites are just silhouettes, no actual work done on them, like shading or actual texturing.
I am not interested in how it is made as long as it looks good. and it does
The mountain in the back has just some blurry thing on it, maybe you can take some screenshots more up close to the stone so I can check that out. Take some of buildings and walls too please, I would like to see those textures too.
so you have NEVER seen buildings or walls or mountains even on screenshots??? you are really unique in the way your boldness outmatches your knowledge
Coming to the character the claim of it having detail and a good texture is like saying that your finger will grow back on if you accidentaly cut it off. You can clearly see in that pic that the skin has no texture going on whatsoever but is just simply colored.
in this point, anyone who knows about rendering in real time now also knows you have not even figured out what a texture is. I never said anything about a texture. actually I compared this face WITH a textured one. I am too tired (and you wouldnt even get it I guess) to explain to you how it really is done. to say it is just colored discredits everything you have said before. it shows a total and utter incompetence in knowledge about computer graphics. but again: I have to admire the boldness you are showing here. no clue and yet so sure of yourself. but wait... usually that DOES go hand in hand.
the face looks MORE realistic than any face in any other MMORPG. do you really think a simple colormapping would do that? lol
The eyebrow is a simple brushstroke. The hair itself shows the lack of any texturing too, its simply repeating lines which look like a noise with following motion blur filter done in photoshop. Doesn´t even bother hide the fact that the seam of the hair goes along the totally overdone polycount. Looks like when you hastily assign colors to a 3d model in a 3d application so you can distinguish between certain polygon groups. The clothing is not even properly mapped and just some random pattern that distorts due to the lack of unwrapping work done on it.
as I said and as you COULD figure out by yourself, my PC has the lowest supported specs. dont think I was stupid enough to have the hair, which is always flying around whenever I move, rendered in detail. I tuned it down. but you are too smart to figure such a simple thing out by yourself, arent you?
Now I think in some parts you misunderstand me and cleffy here Askatan. We do not diss the games graphics because we love WoW so much or hate EQ2 as game, but because we look at the art in the game from an artists viewpoint, at least I know I do. Now I personally tend to overcritize things, as that is the only way to improve.
here you are showing us all why you are doing what you are doing. in telling us, you overcritizise because only that leads to improvement, you are implying knowledge, competence and influence that you could not be farther away from. it is your arrogance and your (and I am repeating myself) loftiness that obviously forces you to make a fool out of yourself

maybe that says everything about you anyone needs to know

Askatan

anarchyart · February 2006

Originally posted by gLitterbug

You can clearly see in that pic that the skin has no texture going on whatsoever but is just simply colored.

Perfect example of someone talking purely out of their ass. The DE skin is ALL textured. Try the game yourself instead of nitpicking someone's screenshots. There is nothing in the entire game that isn't textured. Thank you for showing me you have no idea what you are talking about.

gLitterbug · February 2006

Wow I really have to go cry now I think, after all you just showed me with the knowledge that the both of you possess that I am wrong about everything. Thank you for that, I think I am a new person now. i am more interested than ever now about your own expertise in the field. Please link me to any artwork or anything you have done yourself, I really need to see what someone that is obviously a pro on the subject can do.

P.S.: I just have to correct one of your mistakes here Askatan, I only admitted to not having played the game, but while I am not currently employed by a game development company I am an artist. Just wanted to set this straight.

Askatan · February 2006

Originally posted by anarchyart

Originally posted by gLitterbug

You can clearly see in that pic that the skin has no texture going on whatsoever but is just simply colored.

Perfect example of someone talking purely out of their ass. The DE skin is ALL textured. Try the game yourself instead of nitpicking someone's screenshots. There is nothing in the entire game that isn't textured. Thank you for showing me you have no idea what you are talking about.

yeah, that's what I mean

but I will explain to you what he was trying to say:

this guy might have seen some tools to create pre rendered stuff (doesnt mean he can work with it)

I worked with 3ds max for example. generally you can "texture" a cube, for example, by applying a bmp image. then 3ds max calls it texture.

if you only apply a color, the tool doesnt call it texture. if you render that image, it will look plain, because "color only" simply looks bad. that was what he was implying.

in a directX9 engine like EQ2 uses, you have much more options tomake something look good. if you apply a shader, basically a small program, to a bunch of polygons, you can make it look and feel as e.g. water, glass or skin. the skin doesnt have a "texture" in the classical sense. it consists of many levels of "structure" or "material" applied to the polygons of the face.

the fact that he talks about textures and colors tells me how little he understands about the basics of graphics like in the EQ2 engine....

my point was: it LOOKS much better than the "classic" texture mapping done on faces in other games. there the face is just a small image projected onto a surface. in EQ2 it is actually much more complex and may look stunningly simple, but I think the skin looks so much better than in other games, even if you cant say why exactly. yet, I at least understand the technical background. doesnt mean I NEED it to be amazed

Askatan

by the way: skin is one of the most difficult materials to render because of subsurface scattering. in real skin, light is not only reflected from the surface, but much penetrates the skin and is reflected diffusely from inside. imagine a glass of milk. very difficult to make it look different than a glass of white paint. in pre rendered situations you would use a statistical version of raytracing or photon mapping to get believable results. of course in real time, that is not an option

the skin in EQ2 must have been very difficult to generate. I have tried different lighting situations and it usually looks very believable.

Exoudeous · February 2006

Fact is this game has boring graphics and it doesnt look very interesting at all.

they can bump map all they want, but doesnt look good unless of course you do it the right way

I have played EQ2, and I could not get past the lame visuals, its devoid of any sort of style at all, very basic and plane, generic even.

When a game Is made it needs to be decided what kind of visuals it will have, and how everything in that game will match. In EQ2 threes all this bump mapping, and it really does nothing for the game, while as better more interesting textures and better polygon structures would definitely work way better. EQ2 is shooting to be realistic, but falls way short, and it just makes for something that looks very un-interesting. There needs to be a balance between realism, and artistic touch so the game pulls it self together and becomes believable.

I do 3-d modeling myself, and I would not be caught dead making anything as uninteresting as Ive seen in EQ2, the day I do that is the day I fail myself as an artist.

I think the real thing here is the fan boys dont seem to want to admit the game they spend there lifes on is anything but perfect

Askatan · February 2006

Originally posted by Exoudeous

Fact is this game has boring graphics and it doesnt look very interesting at all.
they can bump map all they want, but doesnt look good unless of course you do it the right way
I have played EQ2, and I could not get past the lame visuals, its devoid of any sort of style at all, very basic and plane, generic even.
When a game Is made it needs to be decided what kind of visuals it will have, and how everything in that game will match. In EQ2 threes all this bump mapping, and it really does nothing for the game, while as better more interesting textures and better polygon structures would definitely work way better. EQ2 is shooting to be realistic, but falls way short, and it just makes for something that looks very un-interesting. There needs to be a balance between realism, and artistic touch so the game pulls it self together and becomes believable.
I do 3-d modeling myself, and I would not be caught dead making anything as uninteresting as Ive seen in EQ2, the day I do that is the day I fail myself as an artist.
I think the real thing here is the fan boys dont seem to want to admit the game they spend there lifes on is anything but perfect

let me guess, Mr. "this is my First posting": you are a mule, an alt or whatever you want to call an incognito nowadays

a troll muled by an alt char incognito ^^

so after you, cleffy or glitterqueen, have lost the battle and your reputation as people who have at least a little bit of something to say, you are trying to continue your trolling by creating new alts? lol how weak

Askatan

Exoudeous · February 2006

Uh no not really Im not.

Why not try to make a more intelligent response then bash me for a first post.

But would that be because you DON'T have anything to say? So youd rather call me out for something else then the actuall matter at hand? Looks like you don't have much to back yourself up so you resort to childish crap.

Zorgo · February 2006

I think EQ's graphics are an initial failure, but promise to improve with my computer.

I very much respect the design that takes the 'next generation' in mind. Unfortunately, I would have like to see some more creativity while waiting for that next generation.

What I mean is that the lvls of performance I have to play EQ2 atm to get a smoothly running game are on the extreme performance (raids and some dungeons) or very high performance (if the conditions are right). Both of these settings loose a lot of the beauty of the game. I think a more creative solution would have been to design the game from the extreme performance up. Meaning that at extreme performance you still have a cohesive art design that looks good, then as you increase quality over performance the graphics become spectacular. As it is it goes from barely playable from a graphics standpoint (at the extreme lvl of performance you are basically looking at block silouhette-type figures) to barely playable at a performance standpoint (at a balanced setting frame rate drops to 'slide-show' quality).

When the next generation of cards becomes available, I will probably start loving the graphics again.

Exoudeous · February 2006

Whats really weak is you resort to name calling. You have no leg to stand on, you are not god of anything and you dont know more then anyone else. Infact Id say you know alot less.

You are just the crying 5 year old that wants his way and doesnt care about what other people have to say

Don't flatter yourself to think anyone would care enough to make a alt acount to talk to you, cause it makes no diffrence in the argument, you just keep changing the topic and not replying to the matter at hand.

druarc · February 2006

Probably the most realistic graphics on any MMORPG at the moment, and I think that is part of the problem, while they are good they aren't good enough so we see the little things that aren't quite right because we're expecting more realistic effects.

We're as in a game like WoW the graphics while pretty aren't very realistic so we don't expect them to have any realism so don't look for it.

zeedaam · February 2006

Askatan, is it really that hard to argue your side of the debate with maturity? Your intense defensive attitude shows how insecure you really are about the graphics. And you don't really make "your side" of the discussion look good. I bet anarchyart is even ashamed to have you on his side.

I guess zorgo is next on your list because he disagrees with you. *sigh* So let the predictable flames from you commence then.

anarchyart · February 2006

Sad thing is, most people just don't have a high end video card. Those who do are blown away by EQ2's graphics, those who don't are rather underwhelmed.

I have an ATI Radeon X800 pro with a gig stick of dual channel Samsung ram and a mediocre processor (2ghz) and the graphics will just knock your socks off. But when I look at it on my ex-gf's computer it's like "meh". This, I think, is the reaction from so many people who can't afford or just don't have a nice video card. It's no crime or anything to be ashamed of, but if you don't have at least an X800 pro or 6800gt you aren't getting the real idea from the graphics or art.

Also, I have an NEC 19" Opticlear monitor with DVI inputs: this makes everything look just luscious and also the DVI inputs adds speed and resolution for the animations to look that much better. It's the nicest 19" NEC monitor available and makes a huge difference.

I know it can be frustrating dealing with people who hate just for the sake of hating, but let's not resort to name calling or calling anyone a 5 year old either. It's video games guys! They're just too FUN for all the hate!

Elapsed · February 2006

EQ2 + my 6800 = underwhelming

gLitterbug · February 2006

Wow Askatan, you actually know more about 3d graphics than I would've thought from your former replies. You still do a damn good job on being full of yourself though. How much experience do you have in max? Or are you just one of those people who fooled around in it for a while because max is used by quite a lot by modders and popular in game companies in general and you thought you would try your hand at it? How about Photoshop, did you work in that too? Got over the filter madness and bought a wacom and actually started painting textures instead of using only filters? Maybe you are simply one of those persons that I probably insulted when saying the bad things about filtermonkey texture work in photoshop and artists who have no skill?

I'm going to explain a bit of the whole art creation process now for everyone interested, might be boring for some but nevertheless.

You start out by modelling your 3d model out of small triangles called polygons. They can have more than 3 sides in your 3d application, but at least the game engine itself will triangulate it if you do not do it manually in the 3d app before. A polygon is the most simple thing to calculate. It is guaranteed to be truely flat, features 3 points(called a vertex, plural vertices) and contains a normal vector, which tells the polygon which way it faces. So much for the primer on 3d models. Once you have your model you move on to the mapping and texturing which Askatan and me were discussing here all the time.

When I said that the dark elfs skin is only colored, what I mean is what pretty much anyone who doesn't need to turn around words to make someone else look bad would've understood. As you, Askatan the CG pro, surely might know yourself, a texture can consist out of only a single color too(in which case it would need only to be one by one pixel big btw). Which is exactly what I referred to; the part of the dark elfs texture is an area where only one color was used. Which is not how it is done in good art most of the time either even if you are using shaders. I don't know if you got any further than the cube and putting a material (which is what max actual calls it, which one or more textures can be part of, next to defintions of the surfaces behaviour, which are pretty much similar to the work a shader does, just not in real time, even though in new versions of 3d applications there is the possibility to assign and even write DirectX realtime shaders to display directly in the viewport) on it when you worked in max, but if you did you might have reached the mapping process and a modifier named UVW mapping and once that is applied you might even have used the UVW unwrapping modifier. Depending on which version you worked with that might have put you through quite tedious and time consuming work. Which depends on the complexity of the model of course. On a cube, unwrapping would not be much work at all, just box map it and voil

Exoudeous · February 2006

let me clear this up. I run the game at full power, and Im still saying they arnt great. So dont tell me its my computer, its the game.

It doesnt matter how many effects the use in the game, if they arnt balanced out to complement all the other elements, it looks like crap. Its just like the launch games on 360, companies like Rare used bump maps because they COULD, not because they SHOULD.

Askatan · February 2006

Originally posted by zeedaam

Askatan, is it really that hard to argue your side of the debate with maturity? Your intense defensive attitude shows how insecure you really are about the graphics. And you don't really make "your side" of the discussion look good. I bet anarchyart is even ashamed to have you on his side.
I guess zorgo is next on your list because he disagrees with you. *sigh* So let the predictable flames from you commence then.

I do not need people "on my side". I can even understand their attitude. I am not playing EQ2 any more, I have quit long ago. SOE is next to turbine on the top of my hatelist. as I have written in another thread some time ago, they screwed a lot of things up in the treatment of my mother tongue in their game. they even kicked me out of the beta for predicting the desaster it still is in terms of translation and "feeling" of the gameworld. but as it turned out, most of the arguments in my country are about the same things as I predicted in my complains to SOE in the beta...

nevertheless, and that is (and you know I am repeating myself) where we both differ. very much.

YOU have no problems with lies, false rumors and fake facts. you accept them, and even reward them with your silence and your sharing of the same attitude. it tells a lot about you who you are critizising and who not.

I have a problem wih lies.

I flame SOE for the RIGHT things. not for things that they DID right.

I do not need anyone to be on my side. I do not care if you like me. I care about the truth. I do not write this to convince you or your buddies here that EQ2 is a great game or that it looks good.

I am stating what I think is right.

that you call that immature tells me a lot about your ethics.

that you try to imply I was insecure about something I even made the efford to look for in my DvD collection, post it on the internet just to show it here, shows me how little you understand.

and there is NOTHING more offensive than stating the truth. you should know that when calling me defensive. look what the OP started when he stated a simple truth.

you have much to learn about maturity. one part is that you do what is right, even if it means defending someone or something you dislike, if it is for a good reason

Askatan

p.s. and glitterqueen: your ultralong posting just shows that I got to you. that is all that I wanted. I will not comment your lame attempt to save your reputation. whatever you might post cannot undo the lack of comprehension and understanding I have proven in your earlier postings.

dropping names and technical terms cannot undo your comming out as a nitwit. it just proves that you can handle wikipedia

I am going to bed now

Cleffy · February 2006

After this I give up, trying to argue with Askatan is like arguing at a brick wall. All he has managed to convince me on on his CG knowledge is the use of photons to simulate skin.

I admit the game looks a lot better with the graphics on full. The specularity isnt so blown out, but this time I would actually listen to my full post for once since you don't seem to be doing that.

The skin is still a flat color (onto what you said before about textures, yes you can make a flat color texture; go to photoshop make a 32x32 pixel image, fill with violet then save out as a tga or dds). The variation in the tonality is created through the lighting. In the actual human body ontop of this is the variation caused by your blood and the variation caused by your viens as well as splotches of slightly lighter or darker skin tones from freckling, aging, tanning, non-tanning, and life accidents. This usually creates 5 different variations in skin tone; which many of the games I already mentioned do.

The hair looks like a filter effect in photoshop called fibers with a little blurrung. Her clothes bump mapping is overscaled and stretched, the details in the clothes look like flat colors as well with the variation caused by yet even more bump mapping; and as mentioned the mapping in the trees was lazy, they probably mirrored the same generic texture.

Having a game that attempts to mask out its ugliness on maximum settings where only 1% of the potential audience can run it that high but look like butt most of the time is alot worse then having a game that looks great on low settings yet doesn't have too advanced of technology.

On the skin thing, you paint in some of the variation caused by lighting, then use vertex painting and specular maps to fake the effect. Its alot less taxing on systems.

Exoudeous · February 2006

Originally posted by Askatan

Askatan
p.s. and glitterqueen: your ultralong posting just shows that I got to you. that is all that I wanted. I will not comment your lame attempt to save your reputation. whatever you might post cannot undo the lack of comprehension and understanding I have proven in your earlier postings.
dropping names and technical terms cannot undo your comming out as a nitwit. it just proves that you can handle wikipedia
I am going to bed now

lol stop lying to yourself you just know you are wrong. You arnt replying because you dont know what you are talking about. Saying some go their info off of wiki proves how lame you are. We can say the same thing of you, that is, if you had provided any factual information

You fail and you lose the argument, because you simply refuse to answer anything anyone says.

P.S. is askatan arabic for asshat?

gLitterbug · February 2006

[quote="Askatan"]dropping names and technical terms cannot undo your comming out as a nitwit. it just proves that you can handle wikipedia[/quote]

At least we know where you studied CG now.

scaramoosh · February 2006

Might aswel lock this thread, become a pointless mess of flames.

zeedaam · February 2006

Originally posted by anarchyart
Sad thing is, most people just don't have a high end video card. Those who do are blown away by EQ2's graphics, those who don't are rather underwhelmed.
I have an ATI Radeon X800 pro with a gig stick of dual channel Samsung ram and a mediocre processor (2ghz) and the graphics will just knock your socks off. But when I look at it on my ex-gf's computer it's like "meh". This, I think, is the reaction from so many people who can't afford or just don't have a nice video card. It's no crime or anything to be ashamed of, but if you don't have at least an X800 pro or 6800gt you aren't getting the real idea from the graphics or art.
Also, I have an NEC 19" Opticlear monitor with DVI inputs: this makes everything look just luscious and also the DVI inputs adds speed and resolution for the animations to look that much better. It's the nicest 19" NEC monitor available and makes a huge difference.
I know it can be frustrating dealing with people who hate just for the sake of hating, but let's not resort to name calling or calling anyone a 5 year old either. It's video games guys! They're just too FUN for all the hate!

I can agree with one point. Most people's first impressions are based on inadequate equipment. Here's my specs (just cause I'm so proud of them ::::02:: )

P4 D 3.0Ghz dual core
3GB of Corsair DDR dual channel ram
Dual 7800GT's in SLi mode (doesn't help much with EQ2 for some reason tho)
Dual 300GB SATA drives Raid 0
23" Apple HD Cinema Display 1920x1200

I can run with extreme quality, even in towns. Oh and Askatan, thanks for the wonderfully predictable response.

gLitterbug · February 2006

Damn that is a pretty damn nice rig you got there Mister zeedaam. Probably could've bought a small island for that cash, but playing games is surely more fun than chopping palm trees for firewood to keep you alive at night.

zeedaam · February 2006

True, if I like driving I'd have a nice sports car maybe. But I like playing games instead, which is good because computer hotrods are cheaper than automobile hotrods.

anarchyart · February 2006

Originally posted by -Jaguar-

EQ2 + my 6800 = underwhelming

Then either you have a sucky monitor, you hate SOE or are just lying. Anyone who has seen EQ2 running on my system has been nothing but "ooooooh!"'s and "aaaaaah!"'s. Even my present gf who hates video games was blow away by the look of Qeynos.

druarc · February 2006

Originally posted by zeedaam

True, if I like driving I'd have a nice sports car maybe. But I like playing games instead, which is good because computer hotrods are cheaper than automobile hotrods.

Nice system indeed, also why I have a MotorBike and not a top line sports car

This has been fun to read, I've been out of the CG world for to long to follow large chunks of it, plus I did all my CG in a CSG raytracer so have no idea on polygons other than they sux at curved surfaces

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