Take it from a person whose played WoW Since Beta. Been in a guild which was one of the first to clear both BWL and AQ. I have 2 characters with 16+ epics (Tier2+)
The World of Warcraft grind is the worst grind in the HISTORY of mmorpg's. Sitting around all the time with nothing to do except raid, then kill random NPC's for 'Reputation' so you can get gear. The entire system is bullshit. You raid the same bosses using the same strategies day after day after day after day after week after week after week after month.
and PvP in WoW? Worst thing ever. Queue's and Battlegrounds don't mix. Even in 1.12 it will be inane. They don't need another 40 v 40 BG.
I quit WoW recently, looking into other games thus far.
In my opinion I'd rank EQ2, Saga of Ryzom, and FFXI over WoW.
Played: WoW, DAoc, EQ2, Nexus, Vanguard, Ryzom, Auto Assault
Originally posted by soad_nathan I dont think so scooter. I hate emo people more than anyone else and to call me emo is like...like....BAD. But I really have played it recently, not quite beaten it, but played a good bit of it this past weekend. I stand my ground. The funny thing is, you moved into bash FFX, which I would say is also a pretty good one. I think they couldve been a little more creative with the storyline...wait nevermind...the ultimate evil force's name being "Sin", you cant really get any more creative.
I still cant believe you called me emo, thats traumatic for me, it really is.
We are getting off topic here.
I'm sorry; you're completely right. I mean that game wasn't geared only to the female audiance of FF. Thats why they made the only girl FFX-2. To try and appeal to the male audiance. "Sin" is the representation of how mans accomplishments in technologies will get out of hand. Yeah yeah... I know the symbolizum in real life. Though true getting off the subject that FF7 isn't the best FF in the francise. Explain how can it be so good; since obviously me and others are so wrong.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by MuffinMan Take it from a person whose played WoW Since Beta. Been in a guild which was one of the first to clear both BWL and AQ. I have 2 characters with 16+ epics (Tier2+)
I'm going to guess closed beta? If so; you must remember the promises that blizzard made with closed and decided not to keep.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by MuffinMan Take it from a person whose played WoW Since Beta. Been in a guild which was one of the first to clear both BWL and AQ. I have 2 characters with 16+ epics (Tier2+)
I'm going to guess closed beta? If so; you must remember the promises that blizzard made with closed and decided not to keep.
Yes...Like when they made all the paladin auras into blessings.
However, they did keep the DPS upgrade on Seal of Crusader...but then butchered it to hell.
Played: WoW, DAoc, EQ2, Nexus, Vanguard, Ryzom, Auto Assault
Originally posted by MuffinMan Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by MuffinMan Take it from a person whose played WoW Since Beta. Been in a guild which was one of the first to clear both BWL and AQ. I have 2 characters with 16+ epics (Tier2+)
I'm going to guess closed beta? If so; you must remember the promises that blizzard made with closed and decided not to keep.
Yes...Like when they made all the paladin auras into blessings.
However, they did keep the DPS upgrade on Seal of Crusader...but then butchered it to hell.
Hero classes too... but thats not the thing that really was going down the hill. I remember in closed beta hearing how engineers will be able to make seige tanks and shreaders and other vechicals. I was so excited when I heard that; I made a rogue eng and was like ok I'm ready for some vechical goodness! *Excitement*
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by Kyoruto Originally posted by theanimedudeFF6? Hah FFIX was the best FF game to date. Zidane was just such an awesome character period. Cute, heroic, intriguing. I loved him. The cut scenes were amazing, and not to mention the little side stories and quests were actually fun. FFVII was one of the most boring FF games to date But don't feel bad, FFVI was pretty good, it just doesn't add up to IX You know I never played FFIX. I liked the idea they whent for the old school in the design. I did mean to buy it, but didn't have the money at the time.(I hated 8 and hope it dies in a fire) But, you can't tell me there is a more F%^$ed up villian then Kefka. It just doesn't happen. Not even Albedo in Xenosaga (1 didn't play the next installment) doesn't come close to Kefka's madness and just purely evil ways.
As a FF fan, I would recommend you pick it up. Kuja is amazingly neat, I like his personality and almost bipolar(ness). Also, the last world you go to is just very imaginative, and it really caught my eye. I enjoyed the chocobo treasure quest in FFIX too, it was so neat. There was this little minigame where you would find hidden areas, and hunt for treasure, and it was just fun.
Check it out, you can probably find it for $20 now, and it's well worth it
WoW is the best game out there. Agreed. However, that's not saying much for MMORPGs as a whole.
As for all of this talk about the different FF games... The stories are written for 12 year olds. I thought FF6 was a great game, but that's because I was like 13 when I played it. FFX had some interesting gameplay mechanics, but the sphere grid was so linear (and the enemies forced you to follow that linear path because everyone needed to be used) that by the time one could travel the grid freely, the game was over anyway.
Originally posted by Owyn There is a reason the average WOW player plays for only 6-8 months. It's not because it's the best game ever made.
How long does the average player play others MMO?
I've heard a lot of figures about how long people averagely play MMO's, but sen absolutely no evidence to support it.
Further to this each time someone posts an (invented?) figure they say that this figure is remarkably low. Although they have never seen the figures for other games. 6-8 months average might be really really high.
Caould you perhaps point me in the direction of where you are getting this info please. I'm intrested in finding out whether what you say can be substantiated or not.
Originally posted by period No because im sure there are artist that sold ALOT more then her. The fact is that it is true that WoW is the highest selling mmorpg EVER. 6 million people cant be wrong.
That's the worst attempt at logic I have ever heard. For starters, 6 million people is just over 1/1000th of the people in the world. In the scope of things, it's not an impressive figure. What? Half of NYC likes the game? Paltry sum. Ask everyone in the world the difference between meiosis and mitosis and then tell me 6 million can't be wrong. Tell me how many people bought Backstreet Boys records. Tell me THEY can't be wrong. Your logic stinks. Popular =/= good.
That 6,000,000 is 6 million currently subscribed or over half of the active MMO community, So compared to your population of the world comparison Wow players would not be 1,000th, a population the size of New York, they would be 5/8ths a population the size of the British Empire at it's peak.
In your music comparison, they would not compare the the paltry sales of the Backstreet Boys, but to a yet to be found singer who is so universally liked that 5/8ths of all people currently listening to music right now had it playing.
I wonder whats more funny. the people saying 6 million people can't be wrong, OR the people who say all those 6 million people ARE wrong and should play [insert other title here]
ahh stop the WoW posting i cant take this anymore. Yes I play WoW and love it, is it the best MMO out there maybe , maybe not I also like EvE online and think that is a good game. Everyone who plays MMO's now is so busy Flaming each other instead of trying to have fun in the game. stop bitching about how bad a game is and crying how its not good enough. I seriously think some of you need to stop playing games, cause all you do is argue about how bad it is. you are all to stubborn to really see how good the games are we have out there. Im not writing this to piss people off because God knows why it does, but all you who go out there and complain and say the games suck and we shouldnt play them are ruining the game for everyone who likes it. So keep your mouths shut cause no one wants to hear your stupid oppinions.
Originally posted by Gameloading I wonder whats more funny. the people saying 6 million people can't be wrong, OR the people who say all those 6 million people ARE wrong and should play [insert other title here]
Originally posted by period Originally posted by Tithrielle Originally posted by period Who are we honestly kidding?
You're kidding yourself if you think WoW is the best MMO out there...
If WoW isnt the best then what is? Dark age of camolot with its 2k playerbase? Anarchy online with its slow gameplay? City of heros with no value or dress up like some nerd and go blasting baddys all day? PVP interaction is horrible. Or what about the sims online? Is the sims rocking the mmorpg scene?
Just because an MMO has an extremely large player base, doesn't mean it's the best game out there. How does one person benefit from a game having such a large playerbase? It doesn't matter if there's 800k of a playerbase or 2k of a playerbase. A good game is a good game, and that's in the eyes of the person playing it.
I myself would MUCH rather prefer playing DAoC with it's small playerbase and GREAT gameplay than play WoW with it's 800k of players on summer vacation. But, that's just my preference
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
1) Claim WoW is the best or worst, doesn't really matter. 2) Quote that WoW has x million therefore it is the best, again doesn't matter 3) Mention something about PvP. 4) Watch as posters compare WoW to McDonalds (yawn!) or Britney Spears?! (), someone else claims EVE is the greatest. (then go play it already!) 5) Laugh at the times when there were a gazillion threads on EQ2 vs WoW when WoW clearly pwns at the moment. Doesn't matter if EQ2 or EVE, whatever, is fundamentally a 'better' game NUMBERS NEVER LIE. Only someone incredibly dumb would claim EQ2, EVE sells more than WoW. It doesn't matter, just play whatever game you like stop listening to people like me and just enjoy your own damn game!
FACT: Look at the chart at mmogchart.com, the World of Warcraft game is off the scale! Don't even bother arguing that point just look at the pc games chart for the last year and a half. Does anyone care that you bought the City of Villians Boxed Set even though WoW is #1, hell no! No-one except YOU decides what games you pay and play!
Here is a simple sum.
box sales + number of current subscribers x monthly fees - server costs - salaries etc = SHEDLOADS OF WONGA!!
Now for something equally fun
SHEDLOADS OF WONGA!! --> invest in Burning Crusade development = EVEN MORE SHEDLOADS OF WONGA!!
Originally posted by JonMichael Originally posted by period Originally posted by Tithrielle Originally posted by period Who are we honestly kidding?
You're kidding yourself if you think WoW is the best MMO out there...
If WoW isnt the best then what is? Dark age of camolot with its 2k playerbase? Anarchy online with its slow gameplay? City of heros with no value or dress up like some nerd and go blasting baddys all day? PVP interaction is horrible. Or what about the sims online? Is the sims rocking the mmorpg scene?
Just because an MMO has an extremely large player base, doesn't mean it's the best game out there. How does one person benefit from a game having such a large playerbase? It doesn't matter if there's 800k of a playerbase or 2k of a playerbase. A good game is a good game, and that's in the eyes of the person playing it.
I myself would MUCH rather prefer playing DAoC with it's small playerbase and GREAT gameplay than play WoW with it's 800k of players on summer vacation. But, that's just my preference
Are you trying to say you're not going to conform, and run around like a chicken that had its head cut off, and play a game you don't think is good; even though millions of others are?
He's a witch! Burn him for having an oppinion! OR wait... He's a commi! Everyone that doesn't like WoW must be a communist and put on trial.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
So with this method of WoW being better because it sold more copies...I can assume that Mario Party is better than Ico, Beyond Good and Evil, and Shadow of the Colossus combined? Oh my god. Mario Party is gonna rox my sox then.
The bottom line is this. Games are a form of entertainment. They are all different, just like we as people are all different. So duh. We like different games. You can like whatever you want to like and I'll do the same. But to create countless threads about how "WoW pwns!!!" or "EVE Online is the best game ever!" is just attention-getting and pointless, and so everyone responds with arguments or flaming. It's been the way of public forums since the beginning of newbiekind, and will continue along that same path for all eternity.
Originally posted by Tenk575 Some of these ANALOGIES are kind of retarded... Food for example.. Wtf are you thinking? Some people can't afford the "best" food out there.. so they goto what is quick and easy, McDonalds.
I think you made his analogy all the more easy to understand by this statement. WoW is the McDonald's of MMOs. It's a quick and brainless solution, it does not offer high quality nor depth, but it serves its purpose and has millions and millions served as a result. WoW, like Mcdonalds, is quick and easy, but if you have too much of it over a period of time, your going to get burned out and move on to something of quality.
Judging by the over all maturity I experienced from players, I think it is also popular as a hangout/destination/equivelant to place of employment with the same demographic of society. (As opposed to the parent who just needs a break from cooking dinner for a day that may stop through on the way home).
Numbers mean nothing in measuring a games' quality, it only means it has the advantage of sheep mentality going for it.
I think WoW sucks, and frankly I don't think there ARE any games out right now that are good enough to justify any sort of investment of time and money (short of daoc and eq1, neither of which I have an interest in playing anymore, but I won't knock their quality from when I did). There is at least one on its way I will try, but I am leery that even with that one MMOs have lost their path, and are now pursuing the dollar more than pursuing the game experience given for that dollar. Make it shiny seems to be all that matters now.
So when is an mmorpg considered the best? World of Warcraft is the top selling mmorpg since end 2004. in fact, no other mmorpg has even come close. not only that, but WoW also has received the highest rating of every mmorpg in about every gaming magazine and almost every gaming website who know what the heck they are talking about.
sure you might enjoy another game better, but thats your oppinion. fact remains WoW is the highest rated mmorpg almost everywhere. (unless you want to claim all those website's are corrupt)
opinion is that WoW is the highest rated mmorpg. Yes from a monetary point of view WoW is king, but if someone doesn't like racing games they are never going to buy GTA even if it is rated on average 90%. The medium of that rating doesn't matter, this site, bloke in a pub, your brother, a magazine, it's still someone else's opinion even if it's the editor of PC-gamer. That's not a fact!
Originally posted by Gameloading So when is an mmorpg considered the best? World of Warcraft is the top selling mmorpg since end 2004. in fact, no other mmorpg has even come close. not only that, but WoW also has received the highest rating of every mmorpg in about every gaming magazine and almost every gaming website who know what the heck they are talking about.
sure you might enjoy another game better, but thats your oppinion. fact remains WoW is the highest rated mmorpg almost everywhere. (unless you want to claim all those website's are corrupt)
But ratings are still opinions mate. What they think is a good game I might not agree with. That's why stating that WoW is the best so boldly like it's written in the bible is rather laughable. /shrug
Comments
Take it from a person whose played WoW Since Beta. Been in a guild which was one of the first to clear both BWL and AQ. I have 2 characters with 16+ epics (Tier2+)
The World of Warcraft grind is the worst grind in the HISTORY of mmorpg's. Sitting around all the time with nothing to do except raid, then kill random NPC's for 'Reputation' so you can get gear. The entire system is bullshit. You raid the same bosses using the same strategies day after day after day after day after week after week after week after month.
and PvP in WoW? Worst thing ever. Queue's and Battlegrounds don't mix. Even in 1.12 it will be inane. They don't need another 40 v 40 BG.
I quit WoW recently, looking into other games thus far.
In my opinion I'd rank EQ2, Saga of Ryzom, and FFXI over WoW.
Played: WoW, DAoc, EQ2, Nexus, Vanguard, Ryzom, Auto Assault
Future: PoTBS, WAR
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
Yes...Like when they made all the paladin auras into blessings.
However, they did keep the DPS upgrade on Seal of Crusader...but then butchered it to hell.
Played: WoW, DAoc, EQ2, Nexus, Vanguard, Ryzom, Auto Assault
Future: PoTBS, WAR
Yes...Like when they made all the paladin auras into blessings.
However, they did keep the DPS upgrade on Seal of Crusader...but then butchered it to hell.
Hero classes too... but thats not the thing that really was going down the hill. I remember in closed beta hearing how engineers will be able to make seige tanks and shreaders and other vechicals. I was so excited when I heard that; I made a rogue eng and was like ok I'm ready for some vechical goodness! *Excitement*
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
As a FF fan, I would recommend you pick it up. Kuja is amazingly neat, I like his personality and almost bipolar(ness). Also, the last world you go to is just very imaginative, and it really caught my eye. I enjoyed the chocobo treasure quest in FFIX too, it was so neat. There was this little minigame where you would find hidden areas, and hunt for treasure, and it was just fun.
Check it out, you can probably find it for $20 now, and it's well worth it
As for all of this talk about the different FF games... The stories are written for 12 year olds. I thought FF6 was a great game, but that's because I was like 13 when I played it. FFX had some interesting gameplay mechanics, but the sphere grid was so linear (and the enemies forced you to follow that linear path because everyone needed to be used) that by the time one could travel the grid freely, the game was over anyway.
How long does the average player play others MMO?
I've heard a lot of figures about how long people averagely play MMO's, but sen absolutely no evidence to support it.
Further to this each time someone posts an (invented?) figure they say that this figure is remarkably low. Although they have never seen the figures for other games. 6-8 months average might be really really high.
Caould you perhaps point me in the direction of where you are getting this info please. I'm intrested in finding out whether what you say can be substantiated or not.
That 6,000,000 is 6 million currently subscribed or over half of the active MMO community, So compared to your population of the world comparison Wow players would not be 1,000th, a population the size of New York, they would be 5/8ths a population the size of the British Empire at it's peak.
In your music comparison, they would not compare the the paltry sales of the Backstreet Boys, but to a yet to be found singer who is so universally liked that 5/8ths of all people currently listening to music right now had it playing.
The OP said that 6 million people cannot be wrong.
WoW. Just WoW.
I guess that's it. I played WoW and thought it was fun for a while and grew insanely bored.
I went back to Asheron's Call.
Damn, how could I be so wrong?
Guess I'll call Turbine right this second and tell them to cancel both my accounts
Even though I have ten times the fun and find 100 times the maturity in the players of AC... WoW is still better and the most fun mmo out there.
OP has to be right. 6 million+ can't be wrong.
[dials Turbine....]
- Zaxx
===============================
--------------
Played: Age of Conan, DDO, Saga of Ryzom, SWG, DaOC, MxO, EQ2, and so on...
Wish List: Jumpgate Evolution, Star Wars: TOR, Star Trek
If WoW isnt the best then what is? Dark age of camolot with its 2k playerbase? Anarchy online with its slow gameplay? City of heros with no value or dress up like some nerd and go blasting baddys all day? PVP interaction is horrible. Or what about the sims online? Is the sims rocking the mmorpg scene?
Just because an MMO has an extremely large player base, doesn't mean it's the best game out there. How does one person benefit from a game having such a large playerbase? It doesn't matter if there's 800k of a playerbase or 2k of a playerbase. A good game is a good game, and that's in the eyes of the person playing it.
I myself would MUCH rather prefer playing DAoC with it's small playerbase and GREAT gameplay than play WoW with it's 800k of players on summer vacation.
But, that's just my preference 
_________________________________
JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Recipe for all WoW associated threads.
1) Claim WoW is the best or worst, doesn't really matter.
), someone else claims EVE is the greatest. (then go play it already!)
2) Quote that WoW has x million therefore it is the best, again doesn't matter
3) Mention something about PvP.
4) Watch as posters compare WoW to McDonalds (yawn!) or Britney Spears?! (
5) Laugh at the times when there were a gazillion threads on EQ2 vs WoW when WoW clearly pwns at the moment. Doesn't matter if EQ2 or EVE, whatever, is fundamentally a 'better' game NUMBERS NEVER LIE. Only someone incredibly dumb would claim EQ2, EVE sells more than WoW. It doesn't matter, just play whatever game you like stop listening to people like me and just enjoy your own damn game!
FACT: Look at the chart at mmogchart.com, the World of Warcraft game is off the scale! Don't even bother arguing that point just look at the pc games chart for the last year and a half. Does anyone care that you bought the City of Villians Boxed Set even though WoW is #1, hell no! No-one except YOU decides what games you pay and play!
Here is a simple sum.
box sales + number of current subscribers x monthly fees - server costs - salaries etc = SHEDLOADS OF WONGA!!
Now for something equally fun
SHEDLOADS OF WONGA!! --> invest in Burning Crusade development = EVEN MORE SHEDLOADS OF WONGA!!
Best formula of them all.
have fun!
No annoying animated GIF here!
If WoW isnt the best then what is? Dark age of camolot with its 2k playerbase? Anarchy online with its slow gameplay? City of heros with no value or dress up like some nerd and go blasting baddys all day? PVP interaction is horrible. Or what about the sims online? Is the sims rocking the mmorpg scene?
Just because an MMO has an extremely large player base, doesn't mean it's the best game out there. How does one person benefit from a game having such a large playerbase? It doesn't matter if there's 800k of a playerbase or 2k of a playerbase. A good game is a good game, and that's in the eyes of the person playing it.
I myself would MUCH rather prefer playing DAoC with it's small playerbase and GREAT gameplay than play WoW with it's 800k of players on summer vacation.
But, that's just my preference 
Are you trying to say you're not going to conform, and run around like a chicken that had its head cut off, and play a game you don't think is good; even though millions of others are?
He's a witch! Burn him for having an oppinion! OR wait... He's a commi! Everyone that doesn't like WoW must be a communist and put on trial.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
So with this method of WoW being better because it sold more copies...I can assume that Mario Party is better than Ico, Beyond Good and Evil, and Shadow of the Colossus combined? Oh my god. Mario Party is gonna rox my sox then.
The bottom line is this. Games are a form of entertainment. They are all different, just like we as people are all different. So duh. We like different games. You can like whatever you want to like and I'll do the same. But to create countless threads about how "WoW pwns!!!" or "EVE Online is the best game ever!" is just attention-getting and pointless, and so everyone responds with arguments or flaming. It's been the way of public forums since the beginning of newbiekind, and will continue along that same path for all eternity.
[insert deity here] help us all...
Judging by the over all maturity I experienced from players, I think it is also popular as a hangout/destination/equivelant to place of employment with the same demographic of society. (As opposed to the parent who just needs a break from cooking dinner for a day that may stop through on the way home).
Numbers mean nothing in measuring a games' quality, it only means it has the advantage of sheep mentality going for it.
I think WoW sucks, and frankly I don't think there ARE any games out right now that are good enough to justify any sort of investment of time and money (short of daoc and eq1, neither of which I have an interest in playing anymore, but I won't knock their quality from when I did). There is at least one on its way I will try, but I am leery that even with that one MMOs have lost their path, and are now pursuing the dollar more than pursuing the game experience given for that dollar. Make it shiny seems to be all that matters now.
So when is an mmorpg considered the best? World of Warcraft is the top selling mmorpg since end 2004. in fact, no other mmorpg has even come close. not only that, but WoW also has received the highest rating of every mmorpg in about every gaming magazine and almost every gaming website who know what the heck they are talking about.
sure you might enjoy another game better, but thats your oppinion. fact remains WoW is the highest rated mmorpg almost everywhere. (unless you want to claim all those website's are corrupt)
Nooo...
opinion is that WoW is the highest rated mmorpg. Yes from a monetary point of view WoW is king, but if someone doesn't like racing games they are never going to buy GTA even if it is rated on average 90%. The medium of that rating doesn't matter, this site, bloke in a pub, your brother, a magazine, it's still someone else's opinion even if it's the editor of PC-gamer. That's not a fact!
No annoying animated GIF here!