*blink blink and has to reread the last post again*
Umm.... you do realize that both Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons are based on Lord of the Rings, right?
LOTR was a set of books long before it was a set of movies or related to games. DDO comes from the Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game which was first inspired into existance by Lord of the Rings.
LOTR IS the biggest and most famous fantasy novels in the world, ever. Everyone knows it, everyone has heard of it, even if they don't like the series.
It IS the biggest IP in the fantasy genre, because it's Lord of the Rings. Developed fromt he books and expanding far more than just one game, like DDO and Warcraft.
It's about more than just a single game. Even DDO comes from an already existing game. Why do you think people dislike it's online implementation so much? Because the TT game is so much better than the online game. The TT game came first.
Done well, they stand to make alot of money just by virtue of the Lord of the Rings name. It hasn't even been released yet, and yet the official site has people that have been arguing for months on how to implement things in the game and whether it's lore appropriate or not. I've never seen an official site that active before the game is even released.
Lord of the Rings is probably the single most famous fantasy story in the world since the creation of the likes of Le Morte D'Arthur and the legends of Robin Hood.
Maybe you read it wrong. You had to have. Because it really IS the biggest fantasy genre they could have. It's like Star Wars. Done right, it could make or break the company.
Just b/c LOTR is the biggest fantasy novel does not mean it's going to have the biggest fantasy MMO following. Warhammer has a bigger game following then LOTR. They have a few successful games arleady.
Novel and gaming are completly different.
*If you think this game will get more then 100k-300k subs your smoking crack.
"It's like Star Wars"
Yes thats why SWG is so successful. Even when it released it didn't break 500k
Originally posted by iduums AC was a decent gave but their population dropped off very rapidly.
"The biggest IP in the fantasy genre - Lord of the (freaking) Rings" I don't think so, I think warhammer and D&D has a much bigger fan "cult" then LOTR.
It is the biggest IP in the fantasy genre and I don't see how you could argue D&D or Warhammer are bigger than Lord of the Rings. Books, movies, toys, figures, board games, cards, shirts, etc. The movies have grossed nearly 3 billion worldwide for example.
Originally posted by iduums Just b/c LOTR is the biggest fantasy novel does not mean it's going to have the biggest fantasy MMO following. Warhammer has a bigger game following then LOTR. They have a few successful games arleady. Novel and gaming are completly different.
*If you think this game will get more then 100k-300k subs your smoking crack. "It's like Star Wars" Yes thats why SWG is so successful. Even when it released it didn't break 500k
Don't be an idiot. Of course it doesn't mean it's going to be successful as a game. It hasn't even started yet.
I think you and I aren't understanding each other right. LOTR is bigger already than any other fantasy genre. That doesn't mean that it's solely limited to a game like Warhammer is. LOTR has books, movies, toys, and other items (like clothing) sold in the BILLIONS. Warhammer is a game. That's all it is and all it will ever be.
LOTR will always be bigger draw than Warhammer because that's the nature of LOTR.
Put it this way, let's say both were created into movies (oh wait, LOTR already has been. And some of the most successful movies of all time at that), which do you think would have the bigger draw?
Don't be an idiot. Of course it doesn't mean it's going to be successful as a game. It hasn't even started yet.
I think you and I aren't understanding each other right. LOTR is bigger already than any other fantasy genre. That doesn't mean that it's solely limited to a game like Warhammer is. LOTR has books, movies, toys, and other items (like clothing) sold in the BILLIONS. Warhammer is a game. That's all it is and all it will ever be.
LOTR will always be bigger draw than Warhammer because that's the nature of LOTR.
Put it this way, let's say both were created into movies (oh wait, LOTR already has been. And some of the most successful movies of all time at that), which do you think would have the bigger draw?
You know the answer and so do I.
You pretty much summed it up, plain and simple. This game is my type of game and I will definitely be playing, that is, if this game continues to put the lore as primary and Mpvp as a back burner.
Of course more people are familiar with Lord of the Rings than Warhammer, but gameplay will be far more important than the lore the games are based on when it comes to their eventual level of success.
Originally posted by Salvatoris Of course more people are familiar with Lord of the Rings than Warhammer, but gameplay will be far more important than the lore the games are based on when it comes to their eventually level of success.
I would have to disagree with that since it is up to each gamer to decide what game has "enough" gameplay for a person to like that particular game. So your premise is definitely rejected but noted and without any malice. I have checked out both lotro and wo, seems to me wo is going towards a dismal defeat both in playablility and in lore content. The Mpvp in lotro looks promising towards pvp yet balanced since that plays little towards an upset towards pve. In my opinion the game has all I want to pay for while wo will definitely be ignored. I would much rather wait to play age of conan before even considering wo.
I am not trying to say I think WAR will be better than LOTRO, or that it will be more successful. I don't know much about WAR, other than their own hype... but I do know a little bit about LOTRO
I think it will be an extremely playable game, and offer plenty of things to keep a variety of different types of players happy.... maybe not at launch, but a couple of updates or expansions down the road. I think it's a bit of a mistake to launch without some of the features they have on hold for post-release content updates.... but I have no doubt in their ability to launch the game in a very polished and professional state.
What i am saying is that popularity of the franchise is less important than gameplay, in general... not just as it applies to these two games. Brand recognition may help determine initial sales, but how well the game is made and supported are more important in the long run. If the overall market saturation and name recognition of the franchise was the most important factor in a games eventual level of success, SWG and the Matrix online would be blowing WoW out of the water, no?
when referring to the maxtrix online or even swg there are a few factors to consider:
1. eye candy aka graphics
2. major changes with adverse reactions
Number 1 would apply to both and although applicable they are both regarded as having very weak graphic attracters. They both use models that you and I both know Sony could do better, much better. Sony whether purposefully or incidently initially started every single title with weak graphics with the exception of planetside. SWG has had major changes due to conflicting intrests namely with the jedi, this major change or 'nerf' as most would call it didnt come without dire consequences stemming from their subscribers. This scaling back trend that Sony just loves to do so as to adhere to their interdenpendent philosophy has taken major hits and not just in SWG.
The truth is the game sucks. It's basically DDO with an LOTR coating, which means it's got a nugat center full of crap.
I didn't find anything unique about the game and in some ways I feel the game went backwards a step. For example, it's quite easy for a griefer in the same area to limit the amount of exp you get when killing mobs. Of course the turbine response is "group with him". Sweet, the only way to stop some guy who's being a jerk is to join him...
The game mechanics are mediocre at best and have been done better by games that are already out.
To me LOTR represents the final nail in the coffin of Turbine. They got lucky with AC1 because they were 1 of only about 3 MMOs out at the time. Their next game, AC2, flopped like a flounder. Their next one, DDO, is viewed by many to be a flop. (Personally I kinda like it, but then again, I'm a big DnD fan). LOTR being a flop just goes to show me that Turbine don't really know what they're doing. They got a lucky break on their first one and have been underperforming ever since, even though they've managed to get the licenses of DnD and LOTR. It's sad really, and hopefully this will stop turbine from making any more games.
Now some of you might be saying "Hey, you just said you kinda like DDO and you said that LOTR is basically the same thing, what's the deal?" Well the fact is that yes they are basically the same thing. However DDO has one major difference which is the DnD game mechanics. The DnD system has been tried and tested for many years so it's got an inherently fun aspect to the game, simply because they have this great system to support the rest of the crap that Turbine put in there. Even then the game only comes out to a moderate success at best.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put a hate on Turbine. Hell, AC1 was one of the first games I ever beta tested, and I've beta'd every turbine game since then. I've just come to the realization that they aren't really capable of producing an MMO with the quality that they need in todays market.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Also I wanted to add, the idea that Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons are based on LOTR is ludicrous. I don't even need to go into all the reasons, because the fact is it's quite easy to just argue that LOTR is based on something else.
Norse mythology had Elves and Dwarves far before Tolkein was even born. So it'd be easy to say LOTR is based on that. Tolkein certainly didn't make up the idea of dragons, or magic rings, or wraiths. He didn't make up the word Wizard, or sorcerer.
It's just not a feasible argument.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I have come to the conlcusion the MMOs based on well loved story's like LOTR don't work.
There is always a fundamental conflict between the story and what would otherwise be a rule set for a MMO. It manifests itself differently depending on the aspect of the story, but it is always there.
We have seen this most clearly in SWG struggle to accurately portray Jedi and then ultimate decision to desecrate the story by making it a starting profession that everyone can be.
I don't think the game will fail and I don't choose my games based on the amount of subscribers. UO doesn't have millions of players but look how long that game has been going.
Originally posted by ShiloFields I have come to the conlcusion the MMOs based on well loved story's like LOTR don't work. There is always a fundamental conflict between the story and what would otherwise be a rule set for a MMO. It manifests itself differently depending on the aspect of the story, but it is always there. We have seen this most clearly in SWG struggle to accurately portray Jedi and then ultimate decision to desecrate the story by making it a starting profession that everyone can be.
You've really hit the nail on the head here Shilo. The problem is people love the story, but they can't be a part of the story. As well, the story only happens once, and then everything is changed. People want to be a part of the LOTR and join in the adventures of the Fellowship, but there was only the 1 fellowship with only those characters. They went on their adventure and then Sauron was defeated. That was the end. You can't set the game after the story because then all the fun is over. If you set it during the story, then either events will stay frozen in motion (like in SWG) or events will happen and some people will miss out cause they're not online at that time. If you set the game before the story, then it's like waiting for something great that never gets there.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Originally posted by ShiloFields I have come to the conlcusion the MMOs based on well loved story's like LOTR don't work. There is always a fundamental conflict between the story and what would otherwise be a rule set for a MMO. It manifests itself differently depending on the aspect of the story, but it is always there. We have seen this most clearly in SWG struggle to accurately portray Jedi and then ultimate decision to desecrate the story by making it a starting profession that everyone can be.
You've really hit the nail on the head here Shilo. The problem is people love the story, but they can't be a part of the story. As well, the story only happens once, and then everything is changed. People want to be a part of the LOTR and join in the adventures of the Fellowship, but there was only the 1 fellowship with only those characters. They went on their adventure and then Sauron was defeated. That was the end. You can't set the game after the story because then all the fun is over. If you set it during the story, then either events will stay frozen in motion (like in SWG) or events will happen and some people will miss out cause they're not online at that time. If you set the game before the story, then it's like waiting for something great that never gets there. You can't make a game where only 1, or very few, people can be the hero and expect people to play it. People play games to be the hero or villan, not the dork that was in the back making boxes.
Originally posted by Blurr Also I wanted to add, the idea that Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons are based on LOTR is ludicrous. I don't even need to go into all the reasons, because the fact is it's quite easy to just argue that LOTR is based on something else. Norse mythology had Elves and Dwarves far before Tolkein was even born. So it'd be easy to say LOTR is based on that. Tolkein certainly didn't make up the idea of dragons, or magic rings, or wraiths. He didn't make up the word Wizard, or sorcerer. It's just not a feasible argument.
That is basicly wrong. One big difference between LotR and other fantasy is that LotR was inspired by history and myth while other fantasy (including Warhammer or DnD) was inspired by fantasy. LotR is the biggest Fantasy IP there are so naturally Warhammer has been inspired by LotR. And nobody claimed that Tolkien made up the dwarves, elves or dragons. But truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkiens view of them, they have of course been changed and developed during 50 years so that they are not so close to the races of Tolkien, but thats where they come from. I mean, orc is even a word made up in Sindarin, an elven language.
And the idea that this basicly like DnD is a very strange arguement. DnD was a largely instanced game to give the small group feeling from the TT. LotrO is a big open world game, with very different systems than DnD. DnD was a very new idea for MMOs and I dont think it will happen again anytime soon, to compare the two is a very illogical thing to do. Generally your making a huge assumption for a game you have never played, about info we never have been given.
Originally posted by Beldwyn Originally posted by Blurr Also I wanted to add, the idea that Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons are based on LOTR is ludicrous. I don't even need to go into all the reasons, because the fact is it's quite easy to just argue that LOTR is based on something else. Norse mythology had Elves and Dwarves far before Tolkein was even born. So it'd be easy to say LOTR is based on that. Tolkein certainly didn't make up the idea of dragons, or magic rings, or wraiths. He didn't make up the word Wizard, or sorcerer. It's just not a feasible argument.
That is basicly wrong. One big difference between LotR and other fantasy is that LotR was inspired by history and myth while other fantasy (including Warhammer or DnD) was inspired by fantasy. LotR is the biggest Fantasy IP there are so naturally Warhammer has been inspired by LotR. And nobody claimed that Tolkien made up the dwarves, elves or dragons. But truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkiens view of them, they have of course been changed and developed during 50 years so that they are not so close to the races of Tolkien, but thats where they come from. I mean, orc is even a word made up in Sindarin, an elven language.
And the idea that this basicly like DnD is a very strange arguement. DnD was a largely instanced game to give the small group feeling from the TT. LotrO is a big open world game, with very different systems than DnD. DnD was a very new idea for MMOs and I dont think it will happen again anytime soon, to compare the two is a very illogical thing to do. Generally your making a huge assumption for a game you have never played, about info we never have been given.
Very rare to find someone with an aptitude to comprehend both the historical attributes and the dynamic perspective, hats off to you Beldwyn.
At one time Tolkien appealed only towards a small niche then grew from there, meanwhile look at the appeal his books has had towards people who love immersive lore. I dont believe tolkien meant his story to be embellished by the "twitchy fingers" crowd. The game is going to succeed simply because his story is brought virtually and persistently alive. When the game succeeds the twitchys will be left dumbfounded with their mouths open.
Sorry guys havnt taken the time to read the whole thread but heres my take on it.
I loved the LOTR movies, greatest movies ever, having said that I believe LOTR online will be a flop, I wish it wasn't. Turbine sux, they screwed AC2 (does not even exist anymore), they screwed D&D, their only claim to fame is Asherons Call 1 which is what 10 years old?
No PvP, No wizards, No factions.....what was Turbine thinking? LOTR and D&D should of been the best MMO's by far and was one of the few that could of competed with WoW, unfortunately Turbine got a hold of both licences, such a shame. Turbine have a habit of bumping their figures, in the days of Asherons Call 2 Turbine kept saying the game was growing and more were joining then quiting, from the players perspective less and less people were playing until Turbine shut it down, if the game was "growing" why did it shut down?
Anyway I have yet to see a decent recent release by Turbine and something tells me ill be waiting a while. Ive never been into company bashing however Turbine has been nothing but a disappointment. One company should of not gotten both D&D and LOTR and divided its attention between both which in the end was greedy of Turbine and will leave the players disappointed, only Turbine could screw up these cash cows.
Originally posted by kouryou Originally posted by scaramoosh I think it'lll suck:1. It's Turbine so just because of a few flops, a game that they have been developing for 3 years will fail too? 2. It does nothing new WoW does nothing new, they took the same crap from other MMO's and put it into theirs...however LOTRO does have ACTUAL new features, if you bothered to even read a tiny bit about ti on the forums 3. Has no pvp they do have Pvp, just a different form call PvMp where you get to go around as a monster such as goblin, orc, uruk-hai 4. Can't play as Orc you can but only through monster play...think of it this way, hoe fun would it be to play something that is 1. a slave, 2. is very weak compared to the other races, 3. has horrible equipment. 5. That lotr gif of that WOW piss take not exactly sure what you mean by this, but if its' that "this is the same as wow" not only are you wrong on that account but you obviously must be new to MMORPG's to not realize that everything wow did was in other MMO's. If however you mean that because WoW, was soo good *cough* bullshit *cough*, just because a game has 5 million players doesn't men it is the best there ever has been...and looking at the forums alot of you WoW noobs are coming to LOTRO online becuase it's something new and promising. Do you guys even know how to read? if you do maybe you should go read up on the game and see that everything you say is proved wrong, BTW WoW is a sucky game, 1. it's like a fucking cartoon 2. it has a bunch of immature brats running around everywhere 3. it did nothing new, 4. once you hit lvl 60 its the same thing all the time, and it's not like it's a challenge to cap you level either
Plain and simple. Anyone who could fuck up an icon like DnD does not have a chance in Hell of making anything else work. DnD should have been an instant success, from name recognition alone. Turbine turned it into a steaming pile of shit. If and when LOTR does flop, Turbine needs to close it's doors, because it will be a bigger laughing stock than it already is.
I think there is a misconception here. Turbine does not design or develop games. They have been in the MMOG industry so long that they can no longer distinguish between the game universe and reality, and hence they have been trying to grind game crafting.
1x Popular MMOG's Gameplay + 1x Popular Intellectual Property = 1x Turbine Game. Hopefully soon they will level up in game crafting. Perhaps they will put points into the "Creative Thought" or "Intelligent Design Decisions" talents - but I doubt it.
Originally posted by Zorvan Originally posted by kouryou Originally posted by scaramoosh I think it'lll suck:1. It's Turbine so just because of a few flops, a game that they have been developing for 3 years will fail too? 2. It does nothing new WoW does nothing new, they took the same crap from other MMO's and put it into theirs...however LOTRO does have ACTUAL new features, if you bothered to even read a tiny bit about ti on the forums 3. Has no pvp they do have Pvp, just a different form call PvMp where you get to go around as a monster such as goblin, orc, uruk-hai 4. Can't play as Orc you can but only through monster play...think of it this way, hoe fun would it be to play something that is 1. a slave, 2. is very weak compared to the other races, 3. has horrible equipment. 5. That lotr gif of that WOW piss take not exactly sure what you mean by this, but if its' that "this is the same as wow" not only are you wrong on that account but you obviously must be new to MMORPG's to not realize that everything wow did was in other MMO's. If however you mean that because WoW, was soo good *cough* bullshit *cough*, just because a game has 5 million players doesn't men it is the best there ever has been...and looking at the forums alot of you WoW noobs are coming to LOTRO online becuase it's something new and promising. Do you guys even know how to read? if you do maybe you should go read up on the game and see that everything you say is proved wrong, BTW WoW is a sucky game, 1. it's like a fucking cartoon 2. it has a bunch of immature brats running around everywhere 3. it did nothing new, 4. once you hit lvl 60 its the same thing all the time, and it's not like it's a challenge to cap you level either
Plain and simple. Anyone who could fuck up an icon like DnD does not have a chance in Hell of making anything else work. DnD should have been an instant success, from name recognition alone. Turbine turned it into a steaming pile of shit. If and when LOTR does flop, Turbine needs to close it's doors, because it will be a bigger laughing stock than it already is.
Youd try turning a pen and paper game into an MMORPG and then talk. From what I've heard they have made other stuff that worked. last point is true enough, if for some reason ths game is a flop, (I've been following this game for a long time and I can tell you now, for someone like me it's not going to be) then yea, their reptation will be absolutley horrible. However, the fact that DDO did so bad I think would help out...since hopefully they would have learned from their mistakes.
Personally I don't care if the people who can't read and run around "I am teh uber pvpzers!!!" people are in game, in fact I hope they aren't. So have fun playing WoW. Maybe when you take the time to actually read about the game and read the reasons for certain decisions you will understand, maybe not, I don't care:)
Originally posted by Blurr Also I wanted to add, the idea that Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons are based on LOTR is ludicrous. I don't even need to go into all the reasons, because the fact is it's quite easy to just argue that LOTR is based on something else. Norse mythology had Elves and Dwarves far before Tolkein was even born. So it'd be easy to say LOTR is based on that. Tolkein certainly didn't make up the idea of dragons, or magic rings, or wraiths. He didn't make up the word Wizard, or sorcerer. It's just not a feasible argument.
That is basicly wrong. One big difference between LotR and other fantasy is that LotR was inspired by history and myth while other fantasy (including Warhammer or DnD) was inspired by fantasy. LotR is the biggest Fantasy IP there are so naturally Warhammer has been inspired by LotR. And nobody claimed that Tolkien made up the dwarves, elves or dragons. But truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkiens view of them, they have of course been changed and developed during 50 years so that they are not so close to the races of Tolkien, but thats where they come from. I mean, orc is even a word made up in Sindarin, an elven language.
And the idea that this basicly like DnD is a very strange arguement. DnD was a largely instanced game to give the small group feeling from the TT. LotrO is a big open world game, with very different systems than DnD. DnD was a very new idea for MMOs and I dont think it will happen again anytime soon, to compare the two is a very illogical thing to do. Generally your making a huge assumption for a game you have never played, about info we never have been given.
I'm sorry but I don't think you really know what you're talking about. You say that lotr is the biggest fantasy IP so Warhammer has to have been based on it? That's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard to date. You say "the truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkeins view of them" , which is also a giant load of crap. You say these things like you've got some evidence of the fact, but I know you don't because they're not true. For example, the idea of dwarves being short stoneworkers who live in the ground. That's not tolkeins idea, that was part of Norse mythology. At the very best, you can say that tolkeins views of fantasy races came from the same idea as other IPs views of fantasy races. Tolkein only created a very small amount of the things that were in his books. Perhaps Orcs, but I think that's about it. Everything else had already been mentioned long before, in very much the same manner as Tolkein wrote about it. Do your homework and go look this stuff up. You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created.
Also I've got a couple other news flashes for you. First of all, when I was talking about Warhammer and DnD, I was talking about the IPs, not the games based on them, which would be WAR and DDO. Secondly, the instancing in DDO wasn't a new thing for MMOs at all. Guild Wars was doing it before. So again you're wrong. It will probably happen again too. Guild Wars is successful with it, so it can be a successful game facet if you do it right.
Finally, I HAVE played LOTRO, and I HAVE played DDO. You think it's illogical to compare them because you haven't played them both and don't know what you're talking about. I'm not the only one comparing them either. Many people who have played both will very quickly draw the comparison between them because they are quite similar. See I'm not the one making assumptions, I'm making points based on facts. You are the one making assumptions and I think you need to get a reality check on saying you know how a game is when you haven't played it.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Comments
AC was a decent gave but their population dropped off very rapidly.
"The biggest IP in the fantasy genre - Lord of the (freaking) Rings"
I don't think so, I think warhammer and D&D has a much bigger fan "cult" then LOTR.
*blink blink and has to reread the last post again*
Umm.... you do realize that both Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons are based on Lord of the Rings, right?
LOTR was a set of books long before it was a set of movies or related to games. DDO comes from the Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game which was first inspired into existance by Lord of the Rings.
LOTR IS the biggest and most famous fantasy novels in the world, ever. Everyone knows it, everyone has heard of it, even if they don't like the series.
It IS the biggest IP in the fantasy genre, because it's Lord of the Rings. Developed fromt he books and expanding far more than just one game, like DDO and Warcraft.
It's about more than just a single game. Even DDO comes from an already existing game. Why do you think people dislike it's online implementation so much? Because the TT game is so much better than the online game. The TT game came first.
Done well, they stand to make alot of money just by virtue of the Lord of the Rings name. It hasn't even been released yet, and yet the official site has people that have been arguing for months on how to implement things in the game and whether it's lore appropriate or not. I've never seen an official site that active before the game is even released.
Lord of the Rings is probably the single most famous fantasy story in the world since the creation of the likes of Le Morte D'Arthur and the legends of Robin Hood.
Maybe you read it wrong. You had to have. Because it really IS the biggest fantasy genre they could have. It's like Star Wars. Done right, it could make or break the company.
Just b/c LOTR is the biggest fantasy novel does not mean it's going to have the biggest fantasy MMO following. Warhammer has a bigger game following then LOTR. They have a few successful games arleady.
Novel and gaming are completly different.
*If you think this game will get more then 100k-300k subs your smoking crack.
"It's like Star Wars"
Yes thats why SWG is so successful. Even when it released it didn't break 500k
It is the biggest IP in the fantasy genre and I don't see how you could argue D&D or Warhammer are bigger than Lord of the Rings. Books, movies, toys, figures, board games, cards, shirts, etc. The movies have grossed nearly 3 billion worldwide for example.
I think you and I aren't understanding each other right. LOTR is bigger already than any other fantasy genre. That doesn't mean that it's solely limited to a game like Warhammer is. LOTR has books, movies, toys, and other items (like clothing) sold in the BILLIONS. Warhammer is a game. That's all it is and all it will ever be.
LOTR will always be bigger draw than Warhammer because that's the nature of LOTR.
Put it this way, let's say both were created into movies (oh wait, LOTR already has been. And some of the most successful movies of all time at that), which do you think would have the bigger draw?
You know the answer and so do I.
I think you and I aren't understanding each other right. LOTR is bigger already than any other fantasy genre. That doesn't mean that it's solely limited to a game like Warhammer is. LOTR has books, movies, toys, and other items (like clothing) sold in the BILLIONS. Warhammer is a game. That's all it is and all it will ever be.
LOTR will always be bigger draw than Warhammer because that's the nature of LOTR.
Put it this way, let's say both were created into movies (oh wait, LOTR already has been. And some of the most successful movies of all time at that), which do you think would have the bigger draw?
You know the answer and so do I.
You pretty much summed it up, plain and simple. This game is my type of game and I will definitely be playing, that is, if this game continues to put the lore as primary and Mpvp as a back burner.
Of course more people are familiar with Lord of the Rings than Warhammer, but gameplay will be far more important than the lore the games are based on when it comes to their eventual level of success.
*edit to correct spell-check's mistakes
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
I am not trying to say I think WAR will be better than LOTRO, or that it will be more successful. I don't know much about WAR, other than their own hype... but I do know a little bit about LOTRO
I think it will be an extremely playable game, and offer plenty of things to keep a variety of different types of players happy.... maybe not at launch, but a couple of updates or expansions down the road. I think it's a bit of a mistake to launch without some of the features they have on hold for post-release content updates.... but I have no doubt in their ability to launch the game in a very polished and professional state.
What i am saying is that popularity of the franchise is less important than gameplay, in general... not just as it applies to these two games. Brand recognition may help determine initial sales, but how well the game is made and supported are more important in the long run. If the overall market saturation and name recognition of the franchise was the most important factor in a games eventual level of success, SWG and the Matrix online would be blowing WoW out of the water, no?
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
when referring to the maxtrix online or even swg there are a few factors to consider:
1. eye candy aka graphics
2. major changes with adverse reactions
Number 1 would apply to both and although applicable they are both regarded as having very weak graphic attracters. They both use models that you and I both know Sony could do better, much better. Sony whether purposefully or incidently initially started every single title with weak graphics with the exception of planetside. SWG has had major changes due to conflicting intrests namely with the jedi, this major change or 'nerf' as most would call it didnt come without dire consequences stemming from their subscribers. This scaling back trend that Sony just loves to do so as to adhere to their interdenpendent philosophy has taken major hits and not just in SWG.
The truth is the game sucks. It's basically DDO with an LOTR coating, which means it's got a nugat center full of crap.
I didn't find anything unique about the game and in some ways I feel the game went backwards a step. For example, it's quite easy for a griefer in the same area to limit the amount of exp you get when killing mobs. Of course the turbine response is "group with him". Sweet, the only way to stop some guy who's being a jerk is to join him...
The game mechanics are mediocre at best and have been done better by games that are already out.
To me LOTR represents the final nail in the coffin of Turbine. They got lucky with AC1 because they were 1 of only about 3 MMOs out at the time. Their next game, AC2, flopped like a flounder. Their next one, DDO, is viewed by many to be a flop. (Personally I kinda like it, but then again, I'm a big DnD fan). LOTR being a flop just goes to show me that Turbine don't really know what they're doing. They got a lucky break on their first one and have been underperforming ever since, even though they've managed to get the licenses of DnD and LOTR. It's sad really, and hopefully this will stop turbine from making any more games.
Now some of you might be saying "Hey, you just said you kinda like DDO and you said that LOTR is basically the same thing, what's the deal?" Well the fact is that yes they are basically the same thing. However DDO has one major difference which is the DnD game mechanics. The DnD system has been tried and tested for many years so it's got an inherently fun aspect to the game, simply because they have this great system to support the rest of the crap that Turbine put in there. Even then the game only comes out to a moderate success at best.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put a hate on Turbine. Hell, AC1 was one of the first games I ever beta tested, and I've beta'd every turbine game since then. I've just come to the realization that they aren't really capable of producing an MMO with the quality that they need in todays market.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Also I wanted to add, the idea that Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons are based on LOTR is ludicrous. I don't even need to go into all the reasons, because the fact is it's quite easy to just argue that LOTR is based on something else.
Norse mythology had Elves and Dwarves far before Tolkein was even born. So it'd be easy to say LOTR is based on that. Tolkein certainly didn't make up the idea of dragons, or magic rings, or wraiths. He didn't make up the word Wizard, or sorcerer.
It's just not a feasible argument.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I have come to the conlcusion the MMOs based on well loved story's like LOTR don't work.
There is always a fundamental conflict between the story and what would otherwise be a rule set for a MMO. It manifests itself differently depending on the aspect of the story, but it is always there.
We have seen this most clearly in SWG struggle to accurately portray Jedi and then ultimate decision to desecrate the story by making it a starting profession that everyone can be.
I don't think the game will fail and I don't choose my games based on the amount of subscribers. UO doesn't have millions of players but look how long that game has been going.
LOTRO sounds like it's gonna be great!
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
You can't make a game where only 1, or very few, people can be the hero and expect people to play it. People play games to be the hero or villan, not the dork that was in the back making boxes.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
And the idea that this basicly like DnD is a very strange arguement. DnD was a largely instanced game to give the small group feeling from the TT. LotrO is a big open world game, with very different systems than DnD. DnD was a very new idea for MMOs and I dont think it will happen again anytime soon, to compare the two is a very illogical thing to do.
Generally your making a huge assumption for a game you have never played, about info we never have been given.
And the idea that this basicly like DnD is a very strange arguement. DnD was a largely instanced game to give the small group feeling from the TT. LotrO is a big open world game, with very different systems than DnD. DnD was a very new idea for MMOs and I dont think it will happen again anytime soon, to compare the two is a very illogical thing to do.
Generally your making a huge assumption for a game you have never played, about info we never have been given.
Very rare to find someone with an aptitude to comprehend both the historical attributes and the dynamic perspective, hats off to you Beldwyn.
Sorry guys havnt taken the time to read the whole thread but heres my take on it.
I loved the LOTR movies, greatest movies ever, having said that I believe LOTR online will be a flop, I wish it wasn't. Turbine sux, they screwed AC2 (does not even exist anymore), they screwed D&D, their only claim to fame is Asherons Call 1 which is what 10 years old?
No PvP, No wizards, No factions.....what was Turbine thinking? LOTR and D&D should of been the best MMO's by far and was one of the few that could of competed with WoW, unfortunately Turbine got a hold of both licences, such a shame. Turbine have a habit of bumping their figures, in the days of Asherons Call 2 Turbine kept saying the game was growing and more were joining then quiting, from the players perspective less and less people were playing until Turbine shut it down, if the game was "growing" why did it shut down?
Anyway I have yet to see a decent recent release by Turbine and something tells me ill be waiting a while. Ive never been into company bashing however Turbine has been nothing but a disappointment. One company should of not gotten both D&D and LOTR and divided its attention between both which in the end was greedy of Turbine and will leave the players disappointed, only Turbine could screw up these cash cows.
Plain and simple. Anyone who could fuck up an icon like DnD does not have a chance in Hell of making anything else work. DnD should have been an instant success, from name recognition alone. Turbine turned it into a steaming pile of shit. If and when LOTR does flop, Turbine needs to close it's doors, because it will be a bigger laughing stock than it already is.
1x Popular MMOG's Gameplay + 1x Popular Intellectual Property = 1x Turbine Game. Hopefully soon they will level up in game crafting. Perhaps they will put points into the "Creative Thought" or "Intelligent Design Decisions" talents - but I doubt it.
Plain and simple. Anyone who could fuck up an icon like DnD does not have a chance in Hell of making anything else work. DnD should have been an instant success, from name recognition alone. Turbine turned it into a steaming pile of shit. If and when LOTR does flop, Turbine needs to close it's doors, because it will be a bigger laughing stock than it already is.
Youd try turning a pen and paper game into an MMORPG and then talk. From what I've heard they have made other stuff that worked. last point is true enough, if for some reason ths game is a flop, (I've been following this game for a long time and I can tell you now, for someone like me it's not going to be) then yea, their reptation will be absolutley horrible. However, the fact that DDO did so bad I think would help out...since hopefully they would have learned from their mistakes.
Personally I don't care if the people who can't read and run around "I am teh uber pvpzers!!!" people are in game, in fact I hope they aren't. So have fun playing WoW. Maybe when you take the time to actually read about the game and read the reasons for certain decisions you will understand, maybe not, I don't care:)
And the idea that this basicly like DnD is a very strange arguement. DnD was a largely instanced game to give the small group feeling from the TT. LotrO is a big open world game, with very different systems than DnD. DnD was a very new idea for MMOs and I dont think it will happen again anytime soon, to compare the two is a very illogical thing to do.
Generally your making a huge assumption for a game you have never played, about info we never have been given.
I'm sorry but I don't think you really know what you're talking about. You say that lotr is the biggest fantasy IP so Warhammer has to have been based on it? That's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard to date. You say "the truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkeins view of them" , which is also a giant load of crap. You say these things like you've got some evidence of the fact, but I know you don't because they're not true. For example, the idea of dwarves being short stoneworkers who live in the ground. That's not tolkeins idea, that was part of Norse mythology. At the very best, you can say that tolkeins views of fantasy races came from the same idea as other IPs views of fantasy races. Tolkein only created a very small amount of the things that were in his books. Perhaps Orcs, but I think that's about it. Everything else had already been mentioned long before, in very much the same manner as Tolkein wrote about it. Do your homework and go look this stuff up. You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created.
Also I've got a couple other news flashes for you. First of all, when I was talking about Warhammer and DnD, I was talking about the IPs, not the games based on them, which would be WAR and DDO. Secondly, the instancing in DDO wasn't a new thing for MMOs at all. Guild Wars was doing it before. So again you're wrong. It will probably happen again too. Guild Wars is successful with it, so it can be a successful game facet if you do it right.
Finally, I HAVE played LOTRO, and I HAVE played DDO. You think it's illogical to compare them because you haven't played them both and don't know what you're talking about. I'm not the only one comparing them either. Many people who have played both will very quickly draw the comparison between them because they are quite similar. See I'm not the one making assumptions, I'm making points based on facts. You are the one making assumptions and I think you need to get a reality check on saying you know how a game is when you haven't played it.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000