Originally posted by ShiloFields I have come to the conlcusion the MMOs based on well loved story's like LOTR don't work. There is always a fundamental conflict between the story and what would otherwise be a rule set for a MMO. It manifests itself differently depending on the aspect of the story, but it is always there. We have seen this most clearly in SWG struggle to accurately portray Jedi and then ultimate decision to desecrate the story by making it a starting profession that everyone can be.
You've really hit the nail on the head here Shilo. The problem is people love the story, but they can't be a part of the story. As well, the story only happens once, and then everything is changed. People want to be a part of the LOTR and join in the adventures of the Fellowship, but there was only the 1 fellowship with only those characters. They went on their adventure and then Sauron was defeated. That was the end. You can't set the game after the story because then all the fun is over. If you set it during the story, then either events will stay frozen in motion (like in SWG) or events will happen and some people will miss out cause they're not online at that time. If you set the game before the story, then it's like waiting for something great that never gets there.
You can't make a game where only 1, or very few, people can be the hero and expect people to play it. People play games to be the hero or villan, not the dork that was in the back making boxes.
Exactly. That's why games based on popular story IPs like LOTR or Matrix or SWG will never work.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Draenor I don't know why we all got on a talk about WoW, but I'll put my 2c in anyway. WoW's success is 70% liscence and 30% good solid game. That 30% though, is only the leveling up portion and the first few months of end game content, after that, the game takes a nose dive by offering more and more of the same raiding. Yes you learn new encounters, but with those new encounters all you ever really end up doing is paying more and more and be forced to play the game more and more. It's a cycle that is frustrating and expensive. WoW simply took what some games do well, put it into their game, and then take out most of the crappy parts. The problem is, there are so many players that they are constantly struggling to get new stuff into the game, and the new stuff that gets put in is quickly beginning to feel contrived and samish. The fact that the game has the warcraft name on it is even more important though. As was said above, if the game was world of starcraft I think that it would be equally or nearly as successfull. WoW was released just before gammers collectively decided that we are tired of fantasy RPG's. And the sci fi genre is the second most popular one for MMO's. Anyway, starcraft aside, warcraft was deffenitely the best choice by blizzard as far as genres go. Though I would be curious to see the numbers of starcraft games sold vs warcraft games sold...despite warcraft having more iterations.
Oh come on, delude yourself all you want. Sure the name is part of its success, but its far more then that. Theres so so many reasons to play wow over almost all the other mmos, for the average gamer.
And about end game "Same encounters" thats how every game will end up being after awhile. Every game ever made suffers from that same problem. And just for the record, PvP does as well. It's not the infinite never ending awesome never the same experience. Thats not saying it wont be enjoyable, thats another arguement in and of itself.
but thats not what this post is about.
This game will flop because its a turbine game. I'm not a lotr fan, but i sincerely want this game to succeed. Simply because i want more diversity on the mmo market.
Another reason is simply this... mmos based on existing unchangeable lore are in for a world of pain. WoW can take a few lore hits here and there, and theres alot of room for alteration and additions. But if LOTR does something similar then chances are its going to turn off the lotr fans.
This game has to:
1. Be true to the lore 2. Have fun gameplay 3. Be constantly evolving 4. Allow players to do things that in one way or another affect the world while rule 1 is in affect.(such as bosses, story missions) 5. Attract people that are not fans of the lore, and keep them playing, even if they HATED the lotr books/movies.
And i honestly don't think turbine can pull it off.
Firstly you choice of words are not universally recognized and agreed upon about turbine nor AC (1&2). Your opinion is precisely the opposite by those who ive seen who are actually PLAYING beta. Ive played both pve based and pvp based games and although this game seems to cater towards story driven pve, it still does not equate to being an ill-fated game if just by remarking on Turbine. Turbine is on a success level that puts them on a progressive track unlike your opinion which has brought ZERO income. Your opinion is dully rejected but noted nonetheless.
I'm sorry but I don't think you really know what you're talking about. You say that lotr is the biggest fantasy IP so Warhammer has to have been based on it? That's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard to date. You say "the truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkeins view of them" , which is also a giant load of crap. You say these things like you've got some evidence of the fact, but I know you don't because they're not true. For example, the idea of dwarves being short stoneworkers who live in the ground. That's not tolkeins idea, that was part of Norse mythology. At the very best, you can say that tolkeins views of fantasy races came from the same idea as other IPs views of fantasy races. Tolkein only created a very small amount of the things that were in his books. Perhaps Orcs, but I think that's about it. Everything else had already been mentioned long before, in very much the same manner as Tolkein wrote about it. Do your homework and go look this stuff up. You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created.
Also I've got a couple other news flashes for you. First of all, when I was talking about Warhammer and DnD, I was talking about the IPs, not the games based on them, which would be WAR and DDO. Secondly, the instancing in DDO wasn't a new thing for MMOs at all. Guild Wars was doing it before. So again you're wrong. It will probably happen again too. Guild Wars is successful with it, so it can be a successful game facet if you do it right.
Finally, I HAVE played LOTRO, and I HAVE played DDO. You think it's illogical to compare them because you haven't played them both and don't know what you're talking about. I'm not the only one comparing them either. Many people who have played both will very quickly draw the comparison between them because they are quite similar. See I'm not the one making assumptions, I'm making points based on facts. You are the one making assumptions and I think you need to get a reality check on saying you know how a game is when you haven't played it.
I suggest you try to comprehend what you read before you go into a rage and throwing random and unnecessary insults around you.
First of all, I did not say Warhammer was based on LotR. I only stated the fact that LotR, while not being the first fantasy ever, was what started the Fantasy genre and now is one of the most read books in the world. Warhammer, following up on the DnD was of course inspired (as many others) by LotR. I am not stating this in a way to demean Warhammer, nor is it a personal insult on you as you seem to think. Warhammer was partially inspired by LotR, just as LotR was partially inspired by Norse Mythology (among other things). Im not saying Warhammer is some sort of bad fanfiction of LotR, just as Im not saying LotR is a retelling of Norse Mytholigy (I hope your not trying to say Warhammer is based of norse mythology right?).
And I stated quite clearly that Tolkien was not the first with most of his characters, but the fact remains, Warhammer and most other fantasy did not get the idea for their dwarves or their elves from Norse mythology, elves in the Norse myth share very little resemblance to the Tolkien kind, and the same goes for trolls. Guess which elves Warhammers, or Warcrafts for that matter, is most similar too? Thats right, the Tolkien kinds.
"You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created."
Now a days yes, I did adress this topic in my latest post too, maybe you were too busy coming up more insults to notice. Anyway, the fantasy of today dont share much similarity with Tolkiens world, even less in the game business, the fantasy genre as evolved. And while most fantasy authors gladley admitt being inspired by Tolkien the scope of fantasy has grown and more fresh idea are coming. However, the gaming world has evolved differently, the old DnD and Warhammer has become their own base for the gaming fantasy. So therefor not many new games resemble Tolkien, they were inspired by fantsy inspired by Tolkien in most cases, or even further of than that. But your example of the dwarves is exactly my point. In norse mythology dwarves were crafters and often lived in the mountains, but they were not warriors, they were traders, cunning crafters and side figures. It was with Tolkien that they became stubborn, brave and stout warriors as we see them in todays fantasy. Im not saying everybody copied Tolkien, but his works and many of his ideas inspired the first wave of fantasy, and that is what we still can see traces of (while mostly extremely different and more simplistic in the gaming fantasy) today.
And Guild Wars is not the same as DDO, Guild Wars was first of all not a P2P game, nor did it have the interactive surroundings as DDO. They do however share the mainly instanced world, just as you said. But those small differencies I stated do, I belive, make a big difference as a MMO (if we can call them that at all).
And if you have played both LotrO and DDO as you claim you are not only saying things that seems very unlogical to me, you are also breaking the NDA, which will hopefully get you banned from the BETA.
I'm sorry but I don't think you really know what you're talking about. You say that lotr is the biggest fantasy IP so Warhammer has to have been based on it? That's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard to date. You say "the truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkeins view of them" , which is also a giant load of crap. You say these things like you've got some evidence of the fact, but I know you don't because they're not true. For example, the idea of dwarves being short stoneworkers who live in the ground. That's not tolkeins idea, that was part of Norse mythology. At the very best, you can say that tolkeins views of fantasy races came from the same idea as other IPs views of fantasy races. Tolkein only created a very small amount of the things that were in his books. Perhaps Orcs, but I think that's about it. Everything else had already been mentioned long before, in very much the same manner as Tolkein wrote about it. Do your homework and go look this stuff up. You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created.
Also I've got a couple other news flashes for you. First of all, when I was talking about Warhammer and DnD, I was talking about the IPs, not the games based on them, which would be WAR and DDO. Secondly, the instancing in DDO wasn't a new thing for MMOs at all. Guild Wars was doing it before. So again you're wrong. It will probably happen again too. Guild Wars is successful with it, so it can be a successful game facet if you do it right.
Finally, I HAVE played LOTRO, and I HAVE played DDO. You think it's illogical to compare them because you haven't played them both and don't know what you're talking about. I'm not the only one comparing them either. Many people who have played both will very quickly draw the comparison between them because they are quite similar. See I'm not the one making assumptions, I'm making points based on facts. You are the one making assumptions and I think you need to get a reality check on saying you know how a game is when you haven't played it.
I suggest you try to comprehend what you read before you go into a rage and throwing random and unnecessary insults around you.
First of all, I did not say Warhammer was based on LotR. I only stated the fact that LotR, while not being the first fantasy ever, was what started the Fantasy genre and now is one of the most read books in the world. Warhammer, following up on the DnD was of course inspired (as many others) by LotR. I am not stating this in a way to demean Warhammer, nor is it a personal insult on you as you seem to think. Warhammer was partially inspired by LotR, just as LotR was partially inspired by Norse Mythology (among other things). Im not saying Warhammer is some sort of bad fanfiction of LotR, just as Im not saying LotR is a retelling of Norse Mytholigy (I hope your not trying to say Warhammer is based of norse mythology right?).
And I stated quite clearly that Tolkien was not the first with most of his characters, but the fact remains, Warhammer and most other fantasy did not get the idea for their dwarves or their elves from Norse mythology, elves in the Norse myth share very little resemblance to the Tolkien kind, and the same goes for trolls. Guess which elves Warhammers, or Warcrafts for that matter, is most similar too? Thats right, the Tolkien kinds.
"You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created."
Now a days yes, I did adress this topic in my latest post too, maybe you were too busy coming up more insults to notice. Anyway, the fantasy of today dont share much similarity with Tolkiens world, even less in the game business, the fantasy genre as evolved. And while most fantasy authors gladley admitt being inspired by Tolkien the scope of fantasy has grown and more fresh idea are coming. However, the gaming world has evolved differently, the old DnD and Warhammer has become their own base for the gaming fantasy. So therefor not many new games resemble Tolkien, they were inspired by fantsy inspired by Tolkien in most cases, or even further of than that. But your example of the dwarves is exactly my point. In norse mythology dwarves were crafters and often lived in the mountains, but they were not warriors, they were traders, cunning crafters and side figures. It was with Tolkien that they became stubborn, brave and stout warriors as we see them in todays fantasy. Im not saying everybody copied Tolkien, but his works and many of his ideas inspired the first wave of fantasy, and that is what we still can see traces of (while mostly extremely different and more simplistic in the gaming fantasy) today.
And Guild Wars is not the same as DDO, Guild Wars was first of all not a P2P game, nor did it have the interactive surroundings as DDO. They do however share the mainly instanced world, just as you said. But those small differencies I stated do, I belive, make a big difference as a MMO (if we can call them that at all).
And if you have played both LotrO and DDO as you claim you are not only saying things that seems very unlogical to me, you are also breaking the NDA, which will hopefully get you banned from the BETA.
I don't need to throw around insults because I know how wrong you are. You strike me as someone who has made up things in his mind and decided that it's now all fact. You can think what you want but that doesn't make it true.
And yes, you DID say that warhammer was inspired by lotr. I can quote you if you like. LOTR isn't what started the fantasy genre simply because there were plenty of fantasy stories before it. You can say that the LOTR movies started fantasy films but you'd be wrong there too for the exact same reason. It seems to me you hold LOTR on a pedestal as being the one and only fantasy source, which would also be wrong. For example, the Warhammer setting is more based on norse mythology than it's based on lotr, which is very little to none indeed. Obviously neither is based SOLELY on Norse Mythology, but Warhammer carries more elements of things that the Norse myths created compared to what Tolkein created. And that's the way it always has been. Simply for the fact that LOTR didn't really do anything new other than have a good writer at the helm. Beyond tolkeins writing style, almost everything in the book had been done before. You can't attribute credit to tolkein for stuff he didn't create.
It's funny, you seem to take everything as an insult, perhaps you have a persecution complex. Or perhaps you just realize that you were the one who started throwing jabs and now you can't take your own medicine. Perhaps you've just realized how weak your arguments are.
Also, it's clear you're either new to the MMO genre or just don't know what you're talking about with the games. Firstly, whether Guild Wars is pay2play or not has nothing to do with how it's like DDO. You are the one who brought up the instancing and claiming that it's a new idea, whereas I showed you that you're wrong. Again, Guild Wars does have an interactive environment. Not necessarily to the extent of DDO but it's there. There are plenty of examples of this, such as the mission in Ascalon where you stop the catapult and then use it yourself.
All of this boils down to you thinking it's illogical (as opposed to unlogical). You don't like what I'm saying so you assume I must be wrong because it's not what your dream of LOTRO is. It'd be easy to dismiss me if I was the only one saying this, but I'm not. I'm not really going to bother trying to make you see what a flop the game will be, you can purchase the game and find out for yourself. Otherwise it would be like trying to describe a pile of dog poop to a blind man.
But it's glad to know you hope I get banned from beta. That's a petty comment I was expecting for sure.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Ive seen a total of 14 people who are in beta give good remarks about this game and your the first negative one. So its kinda natural to find a ratio like that. Your opinions describing this game is just that and is outnumbered by better reviews, in fact those reviews are much more precise in their descriptions vs. yours. Perhaps its just that your review sucks compared to theirs rather than a poop being described to a blind person. At this point I can assert that judging from the changes that have happened after the video releases outlining some of the gameplay, the remarks are even more so on the good side than what you vaguely and incoherrently describe. Does this mean that your review sucks? it looks like it... and smells like it.. must be what it is.
Except that I wasn't writing a review, no matter how much you want to cry about what I've said. And again, I'm not the only one saying it.
If you don't want to hear it, simply stick your fingers in your ears and hum.
The reason why I'm not bothering to go that in depth into these things is because I don't really care to waste that much time on you. I know you're hardcore fanbois who toss it to the concept art, and frankly your opinion doesn't matter enough for me to care to change it. I mean, Turbine could literally take a dump and write LOTR on it, and a number of people would still worship it. (Which is pretty close to reality actually)
You can try to dismiss my remarks all you want, but as you guys seem to ignore, I'm not the only one saying these things. You don't have to listen to me and I couldn't care less what you think, but I know the game is just the same rehashed crap that caused problems for DDO. To anyone with sense, it just proves that Turbine doesn't know what it's doing. They got lucky with their first game, and everything since has been mediocre at best. I'm sorry you guys will have to find this out at the expense of your LOTR game, but when you blindly follow what developers and paid reviewers have to tell you, you won't see the cliff's edge.
But by all means, feel free to keep believing that the only truth is the comments that Turbine "leaked" about the beta. I'm sure it's the actual feelings of the entire beta community, and that they wouldn't take out anything that made the game look bad.
Blind faith ftw!
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Moirae *blink blink and has to reread the last post again* LOTR was a set of books long before it was a set of movies or related to games. DDO comes from the Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game which was first inspired into existance by Lord of the Rings. LOTR IS the biggest and most famous fantasy novels in the world, ever. Everyone knows it, everyone has heard of it, even if they don't like the series. It's about more than just a single game. Even DDO comes from an already existing game. Why do you think people dislike it's online implementation so much? Because the TT game is so much better than the online game. The TT game came first.
You are wrong, D&D franchise is bigger than LotR franchise; GAMING-wise.
Yes, D&D is inspired by Tolkien, but there stop your comparaison.
If you just take a walk into ANY gaming shop, and ask them what is their #1 seller from a list including D&D, LotR, and any other title...the only property that might beat D&D is Magic the Gathering. (you may walk upon a few WW fanatics however, cool games, but not even close...size-wise)
You are oblivious to gaming to think that LotR is even close to the might of the D&D franchise. Peoples who buy MMOs and play...they are GAMERS, not peoples watching movies. 90% of the LotR fans who happen to be gamers are also D&D fans in similar or stronger lust. If 50% of the D&D fans are LotR fans at a similar magnitude or stronger, I would be surprised.
Their GAMING flagship is D&D, LotR would be a wonderfull flagship, but it is 1 category weaker than D&D, gaming-wise. To think otherwise is just to lack at considering the facts from a GAMING point of view. Non-gamers aren't going to suddenly start play a game. LotR might have some chance, but with a RAIDING and lame-solo starts, Turbines is heading for a wall.
In case you didn't know, their are more than 1 TT game for LotR, trading cards, board games...yet, they are WAY behind D&D. If they even have 25% of the sells of D&D I would be surprised, it is prolly more about 10%.
Hollywood would tells you that LotR is a stronger franchise...but are you making a game or a movie? D&D is the ultimate franchise any gaming company could dream working on. If you precise to ONLINE gaming, then Diablo might be bigger or smaller than D&D, that is pretty hard to confine, since Diablo is quite successfull, but D&D has many dozens of titles...and this make a LOT in the long run.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well I've read about 10 pages of why I hate LotRO and why I Love it Or Why I wont play it or why I will play it. Figured Id skip the next two pages (11-12) since it was all the same from 1-10. There are many things making this game seem good and bad I think we can all agree on these listed below.
Pro's
1. Its Lord of the Rings, It was a great series of books and movies.
2. Developers are taking there time on it making sure its based on the actual books NOT THE MOVIES.
3. In Beta Games do get better over time. From what I've heard from beta members the game has completly changed since BETA release to now.
4. Screenshots show that the game has fantastic graphics.
5. Exploring is part of the game and should be fun atleast for the first couple of months or years it is out.
Con's
1. Turbine does have a bad reputation with MMO's almost as bad as EA with Ultima Online and others.
2. Turbine could be doing the game just for money from the franchise and we dont know what to expect at release.
3. THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE AN OPEN BETA
Well If I can think of anymore that you all have complained about ill be sure to edit the post but one thing I have to say about D&D Online is Real D&D Players would not play it Not here in Denver anyways, I walked into a store called the "wizards Chest" I saw a couple rooms one room was playing D&D and a few others were playing some other games. I saw a line by the D&D door I went over and asked Why not play D&D online he replied to me with "D&D online is not for real D&D players its going to be a game where you can not reach the limits of the Tabletop game." And I quote that from James Hashard who lives here in Colorado not sure if he lives in Denver or not.
Anofalye When you said
____________________________________________________________________________ Originally posted by Anofalye
You are oblivious to gaming to think that LotR is even close to the might of the D&D franchise. ____________________________________________________________________________
You must remember in 1949 Lord of the Rings was made. You could say it was a biography depending on how you look at it. Anyways J.R Tolkien started writing LotR as a journal, he got most of his ideas from his journal while serving in World War 1 and World War 2 once he was out of the war It took him about 3 years or more to finish it and it was finally published in 1949. Exactly 25 Years before D&D ever exsisted (1974). The Lord of the Rings had more fans then ever because of the book called "The Hobbit" Lotr is actually a sequel to that book. As you know the fans of "The Hobbit" waited in anticipation for The Lord of the Rings and as you know is and always will be a huge hit around the world. If I am correct schools around the country(USA) are requiring english classes to read "The Hobbit" I may be wrong on that one but still if it is true then Why arnt kids being forced to read D&D Last stand of Kukarian(Not sure if thats a real D&D book name) or whatever book you would like to choose. I would say that The D&D Franchise is very huge but is in fact smaller then lord of the rings franchise because of the fact that its been around for over 70 years give or take a few and if you dont count the hobbit around 60 years. D&D is at a loss and has onlybeen around in the range of 30-40. And yes infact D&D was inspired by LotR.
You Also said
_______________________________________________________________________ Originally posted by Anofalye In case you didn't know, their are more than 1 TT game for LotR, trading cards, board games...yet, they are WAY behind D&D. If they even have 25% of the sells of D&D I would be surprised, it is prolly more about 10%. _______________________________________________________________________
Uuumm buddy I'd hate to break it to ya but I doubt D&D has hardly any sales compared to what LotR made off of just the books. Might I remind you now a days (1995-2006+) kids and teenagers hate trading cards I mean pokemon was cool for a while but For christ sake what are kids going to want 500 action figures or trading cards for. I mean Magic and Pokemon were cool but they are officially dead now well to some they are not but if you ask more people on the street "Do you think Magic and pokemon are dead?" They will say Whats that? If I did a questionare to a group of members in my neighborhood and asked Which one would you rather play on a computer Lord of the rings or Dungeons and Dragons I believe they would say Lord of the Ring. Younger kids would say because the movies were cool, Middle aged would say because I read the books and watched the movies and they were fantastic and very thrilling in the fantasy world. Old people would say What is lord of the rings because there senial or Say I have artheritis I could never play a game anyways.
Another note. World of Warcraft and the Southpark episode. 3 of my friends who do not own computers went out bought one and then once they got there next pay check went and bought World of Warcraft just because they saw how awesome it was in southpark. Point given people hear about lord of the rings game They play it simple as that. There is no LotR board game except this one that I know of.( I have played it and it sucked)
Anyways on to my point here You wont have people saying the game is being rejected because the people playing the board game wont get the full experience as roleplaying in the real world is.
I could go on forever Giving pro's and cons about D&D and Lord of the Rings but its 330 AM here and I dont want to be up any later Lol!
Just to let you know. Codemaster isn't doing an open beta. Nik and several devs on IRC hinted about the changes they were planning to happen before open beta starts. So in the good ol USA (NA) beta there will be an open beta.
Also thought i point out that tolkien himself stated that WWII had no influence on his perception and writing of LOTR. He got most of his ideas from Nordic mythos. He actually started writing LOTR as a childrens story for his kids but it evolved into a more serious book. The hobbit is a children's story that is loved by both children and adults. He started writing the silmarillion when he was in WW I and never did finish it before he died.
Anyway this game will rule. Well to me it will. I am sure the people who are beta testing read what is written about this game on this forum and others and laugh. All along thinking to themselves if these people only knew what this game was like. You can't condem a game you have never played, or seen enough info on to form a logical opinion. So it has non traditional pvp. Big deal. Not every game has to be a free for all kill or be kill game. If it doesn't suit your playstyle then move on to the next game. Bashing a game that doesn't suit your playstyle makes you look immature and spoiled. Be the bigger person and just admit the game is not for you and leave it at that.
This game is for me i know that and i am not going to sit here and glorify it just because it is. There has been alot of changes that i disagree with and alot i am happy with. That is the way games are. Make the best of it and either play it or don't play it.
I don't need to throw around insults because I know how wrong you are. You strike me as someone who has made up things in his mind and decided that it's now all fact. You can think what you want but that doesn't make it true.
Ah, the hipocracy is breath taking.
And yes, you DID say that warhammer was inspired by lotr. I can quote you if you like. LOTR isn't what started the fantasy genre simply because there were plenty of fantasy stories before it. You can say that the LOTR movies started fantasy films but you'd be wrong there too for the exact same reason. It seems to me you hold LOTR on a pedestal as being the one and only fantasy source, which would also be wrong. For example, the Warhammer setting is more based on norse mythology than it's based on lotr, which is very little to none indeed. Obviously neither is based SOLELY on Norse Mythology, but Warhammer carries more elements of things that the Norse myths created compared to what Tolkein created. And that's the way it always has been. Simply for the fact that LOTR didn't really do anything new other than have a good writer at the helm. Beyond tolkeins writing style, almost everything in the book had been done before. You can't attribute credit to tolkein for stuff he didn't create.
I did say Warhammer was inspired by LotR, Ive never denied that. However you claimed I said it was based of lotr, there is a pretty big difference. And I state again (god, maybe you might actually read what I say this time), I did NOT (see, not) say the LotR was the first fantasy ever written. But before lotr the fantasy genre did not exist as such, no other fantasy had been as succesfull as lotr before, it had not yet becomen a genre. And again, I am fully aware of what Tolkien did and did not create, try read what I type instead of putting words in my mouth. And I hardly belive the makers of Warhammer sat down and read through Norse Myth (like Tolkien did) do get their ideas for Warhammer. Of course many different things in their ultimately come from those myth, but only because that was part of fantasy at that time and place, with Tolkien and those before him.
It's funny, you seem to take everything as an insult, perhaps you have a persecution complex. Or perhaps you just realize that you were the one who started throwing jabs and now you can't take your own medicine. Perhaps you've just realized how weak your arguments are.
I started with the jabs? Hardly. I merely noticed how you seemed to be unable to have a serious debate and keep it a civil level, your behaviour have made this my last response to you in this thread, no matter how you bait me the next time.
Also, it's clear you're either new to the MMO genre or just don't know what you're talking about with the games. Firstly, whether Guild Wars is pay2play or not has nothing to do with how it's like DDO. You are the one who brought up the instancing and claiming that it's a new idea, whereas I showed you that you're wrong. Again, Guild Wars does have an interactive environment. Not necessarily to the extent of DDO but it's there. There are plenty of examples of this, such as the mission in Ascalon where you stop the catapult and then use it yourself.
The fact that Guild Wars dont have any subscription changes that game quite a lot, it becomes an ORPG instead of a MMORPG, which was what DDO tried to be while lacking in a lot ways to normal MMOs. I belive that if DDO wouldnt had subscription fee it would probably get a pretty different response from the gaming world.
All of this boils down to you thinking it's illogical (as opposed to unlogical). You don't like what I'm saying so you assume I must be wrong because it's not what your dream of LOTRO is. It'd be easy to dismiss me if I was the only one saying this, but I'm not. I'm not really going to bother trying to make you see what a flop the game will be, you can purchase the game and find out for yourself. Otherwise it would be like trying to describe a pile of dog poop to a blind man.
Your oppinion, as seeing from your post you seems like a pretty different person than myself.
But it's glad to know you hope I get banned from beta. That's a petty comment I was expecting for sure.
If this was supposed to prove something you failed miserably.
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Moirae *blink blink and has to reread the last post again* LOTR was a set of books long before it was a set of movies or related to games. DDO comes from the Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game which was first inspired into existance by Lord of the Rings. LOTR IS the biggest and most famous fantasy novels in the world, ever. Everyone knows it, everyone has heard of it, even if they don't like the series. It's about more than just a single game. Even DDO comes from an already existing game. Why do you think people dislike it's online implementation so much? Because the TT game is so much better than the online game. The TT game came first.
You are wrong, D&D franchise is bigger than LotR franchise; GAMING-wise.
Yes, D&D is inspired by Tolkien, but there stop your comparaison.
If you just take a walk into ANY gaming shop, and ask them what is their #1 seller from a list including D&D, LotR, and any other title...the only property that might beat D&D is Magic the Gathering. (you may walk upon a few WW fanatics however, cool games, but not even close...size-wise)
You are oblivious to gaming to think that LotR is even close to the might of the D&D franchise. Peoples who buy MMOs and play...they are GAMERS, not peoples watching movies. 90% of the LotR fans who happen to be gamers are also D&D fans in similar or stronger lust. If 50% of the D&D fans are LotR fans at a similar magnitude or stronger, I would be surprised.
Their GAMING flagship is D&D, LotR would be a wonderfull flagship, but it is 1 category weaker than D&D, gaming-wise. To think otherwise is just to lack at considering the facts from a GAMING point of view. Non-gamers aren't going to suddenly start play a game. LotR might have some chance, but with a RAIDING and lame-solo starts, Turbines is heading for a wall.
In case you didn't know, their are more than 1 TT game for LotR, trading cards, board games...yet, they are WAY behind D&D. If they even have 25% of the sells of D&D I would be surprised, it is prolly more about 10%.
Hollywood would tells you that LotR is a stronger franchise...but are you making a game or a movie? D&D is the ultimate franchise any gaming company could dream working on. If you precise to ONLINE gaming, then Diablo might be bigger or smaller than D&D, that is pretty hard to confine, since Diablo is quite successfull, but D&D has many dozens of titles...and this make a LOT in the long run.
lol. No, you're wrong. LOTR came first. DnD is based off LOTR. LOTR started the whole modern fantasy style. I've played DnD for many years. And LOTR itself has only JUST been turned into a game.
I don't really care that DDO is a bigger game right now. Of course it is. LOTRO hasn't been released yet. That's not the point and you know it. LOTR is not just about the game. LOTR started it all. The sooner you realize that, the better.
Not to mention, how in bloody hell can you compare 22 of TT gaming vs 5 (maybe not even that much) on the computer? Because DnD has been out for 22 years. They've had alot of time to refine the game.
You want to talk about Turbine creating DnD and LOTR for the ONLINE gaming community? Ok, let's talk about it. DnD has already been out for quite a while. Vs. a game that is still in beta.
And you think you can decide whether it's good or bad when you haven't even seen it yet?
So, I repeat, you can't compare 22 years of gaming creation experience from WoTC in TT (tabletop for those that don't know and DnD is on TT, not ONLINE) vs. a not even released game that's online.
They're two different entities. Just like books, movies, and a whole bloody franchise that's much older than one game can't be compared to one game that's not even released yet.
Should I just smack you up the back of the head now?
Originally posted by lupisenparis Bladin- I think your post is a flop, why? Firstly you choice of words are not universally recognized and agreed upon about turbine nor AC (1&2). Your opinion is precisely the opposite by those who ive seen who are actually PLAYING beta. Ive played both pve based and pvp based games and although this game seems to cater towards story driven pve, it still does not equate to being an ill-fated game if just by remarking on Turbine. Turbine is on a success level that puts them on a progressive track unlike your opinion which has brought ZERO income. Your opinion is dully rejected but noted nonetheless.
I said i wanted it to be good, and i honestly think it looks good.
But look at turbines record
AC1, good game ill agree. Ac2, good game, but was a complete and utter failure.(and i honestly wish it still existed, id be playing it) DDO, decent game, suffers from content issues, as well as a wide variety of others, and a overall lackluster/poor game, basically a flop. LOTRO, will it be good? i hope so.
But from what ive seen, past ac1 turbine hasnt done anything truely right. theres alot of novelists, and game companies that really make it big with a title, and then can never meet up with the initial ones quality
1 out of 3 games being a success isn't that good for a companies record.
And even if you take a look at AC subscriber numbers AC1 never truely became popular, DAoC, EQ, and UO(some of the first mmos) all exceeded AC's numbers. And ever since the initial spike of ac subscribers, ac has been in a constant state of decline.
This game could be turbines saving grace. It could be fantastic, it could be awesome to the max(and i honestly hope it is)... But considering turbines honest record, its got alot to live up to.
In fact the way things are looking, if lotr is NOT a success and flops, then chances are turbine may just disband and close down ac/ddo/lotr.
1 canceled game, 1 dieing game, and 1 unpopular game...turbine is not very successful
I don't need to throw around insults because I know how wrong you are. You strike me as someone who has made up things in his mind and decided that it's now all fact. You can think what you want but that doesn't make it true.
Ah, the hipocracy is breath taking.
And yes, you DID say that warhammer was inspired by lotr. I can quote you if you like. LOTR isn't what started the fantasy genre simply because there were plenty of fantasy stories before it. You can say that the LOTR movies started fantasy films but you'd be wrong there too for the exact same reason. It seems to me you hold LOTR on a pedestal as being the one and only fantasy source, which would also be wrong. For example, the Warhammer setting is more based on norse mythology than it's based on lotr, which is very little to none indeed. Obviously neither is based SOLELY on Norse Mythology, but Warhammer carries more elements of things that the Norse myths created compared to what Tolkein created. And that's the way it always has been. Simply for the fact that LOTR didn't really do anything new other than have a good writer at the helm. Beyond tolkeins writing style, almost everything in the book had been done before. You can't attribute credit to tolkein for stuff he didn't create.
I did say Warhammer was inspired by LotR, Ive never denied that. However you claimed I said it was based of lotr, there is a pretty big difference. And I state again (god, maybe you might actually read what I say this time), I did NOT (see, not) say the LotR was the first fantasy ever written. But before lotr the fantasy genre did not exist as such, no other fantasy had been as succesfull as lotr before, it had not yet becomen a genre. And again, I am fully aware of what Tolkien did and did not create, try read what I type instead of putting words in my mouth. And I hardly belive the makers of Warhammer sat down and read through Norse Myth (like Tolkien did) do get their ideas for Warhammer. Of course many different things in their ultimately come from those myth, but only because that was part of fantasy at that time and place, with Tolkien and those before him.
It's funny, you seem to take everything as an insult, perhaps you have a persecution complex. Or perhaps you just realize that you were the one who started throwing jabs and now you can't take your own medicine. Perhaps you've just realized how weak your arguments are.
I started with the jabs? Hardly. I merely noticed how you seemed to be unable to have a serious debate and keep it a civil level, your behaviour have made this my last response to you in this thread, no matter how you bait me the next time.
Also, it's clear you're either new to the MMO genre or just don't know what you're talking about with the games. Firstly, whether Guild Wars is pay2play or not has nothing to do with how it's like DDO. You are the one who brought up the instancing and claiming that it's a new idea, whereas I showed you that you're wrong. Again, Guild Wars does have an interactive environment. Not necessarily to the extent of DDO but it's there. There are plenty of examples of this, such as the mission in Ascalon where you stop the catapult and then use it yourself.
The fact that Guild Wars dont have any subscription changes that game quite a lot, it becomes an ORPG instead of a MMORPG, which was what DDO tried to be while lacking in a lot ways to normal MMOs. I belive that if DDO wouldnt had subscription fee it would probably get a pretty different response from the gaming world.
All of this boils down to you thinking it's illogical (as opposed to unlogical). You don't like what I'm saying so you assume I must be wrong because it's not what your dream of LOTRO is. It'd be easy to dismiss me if I was the only one saying this, but I'm not. I'm not really going to bother trying to make you see what a flop the game will be, you can purchase the game and find out for yourself. Otherwise it would be like trying to describe a pile of dog poop to a blind man.
Your oppinion, as seeing from your post you seems like a pretty different person than myself.
But it's glad to know you hope I get banned from beta. That's a petty comment I was expecting for sure.
If this was supposed to prove something you failed miserably.
You know, your quoting and putting responses in red looks so much like this other guy who also doesn't really read what people say. He just takes the phrases he can attack and ignores the rest too. I wouldn't be surprised if you're the same guy and your first account just got banned. However, I'd be careful because if that's not the case than someone would think you are posting with 2 seperate accounts. Might wanna watch that.
I don't know what to tell you. You don't seem to know the difference between an insult and stated opinion. My suggestion is practice your reading comprehension.
First of all, Warhammer is hardly inspired by LOTR if at all. It's no more inspired by LOTR than it is by any other fantasy.
You seem to think that LOTR is the magic book that created the fantasy genre, but that's not true either. It's just another book in a long line of books. Some of the greatest Fantasy stories came before Tolkein. The stories of Camelot and the Knights of the Round, Niebelunginleid (sp?) from Germany, the Norse Eddas. Hell you could even say that LOTR was based on the bible if you really wanted. But I guess Tolkein is your personal God and master, so trying to have a conversation with a fanatic who think's lotr changed the entire world is really pointless.
Once again I see you can't take your medicine. Instead you start throwing insults and then say "you can't insult me, I'm not talking to you". Feel free to take your ball and go home too.
Whether or not a game has a subscription has NOTHING to do with whether it's an MMO or not. There are plenty of MMOs with no subscription fee whatsoever.
This just proves to me that you don't know how the genre works.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
theres many ppl just happy this game is being made into a mmo. too early to tell if lotro will break and hold the 1 million barrier for a 1 - 3 year period.
we havent heard or seen any ground breaking features yet but like vanguard and WAR the devs are keeping cards close to their chests. with BC on the horizon they made the right choice to release it next year either way.
You know, your quoting and putting responses in red looks so much like this other guy who also doesn't really read what people say. He just takes the phrases he can attack and ignores the rest too. I wouldn't be surprised if you're the same guy and your first account just got banned. However, I'd be careful because if that's not the case than someone would think you are posting with 2 seperate accounts. Might wanna watch that.
I don't know what to tell you. You don't seem to know the difference between an insult and stated opinion. My suggestion is practice your reading comprehension.
First of all, Warhammer is hardly inspired by LOTR if at all. It's no more inspired by LOTR than it is by any other fantasy.
You seem to think that LOTR is the magic book that created the fantasy genre, but that's not true either. It's just another book in a long line of books. Some of the greatest Fantasy stories came before Tolkein. The stories of Camelot and the Knights of the Round, Niebelunginleid (sp?) from Germany, the Norse Eddas. Hell you could even say that LOTR was based on the bible if you really wanted. But I guess Tolkein is your personal God and master, so trying to have a conversation with a fanatic who think's lotr changed the entire world is really pointless.
Once again I see you can't take your medicine. Instead you start throwing insults and then say "you can't insult me, I'm not talking to you". Feel free to take your ball and go home too.
Whether or not a game has a subscription has NOTHING to do with whether it's an MMO or not. There are plenty of MMOs with no subscription fee whatsoever.
This just proves to me that you don't know how the genre works.
I know I said i wouldnt respond but this just took the price.
"First of all, Warhammer is hardly inspired by LOTR if at all. It's no more inspired by LOTR than it is by any other fantasy."
Wow, its not like I just said that. Think again, yes Warhammer is of course inspired by other fantasy too, but what were they inspired by? Thats right, Tolkien.
"You seem to think that LOTR is the magic book that created the fantasy genre, but that's not true either. It's just another book in a long line of books. Some of the greatest Fantasy stories came before Tolkein. The stories of Camelot and the Knights of the Round, Niebelunginleid (sp?) from Germany, the Norse Eddas. Hell you could even say that LOTR was based on the bible if you really wanted. But I guess Tolkein is your personal God and master, so trying to have a conversation with a fanatic who think's lotr changed the entire world is really pointless."
Oh comon. Stop posting insults please, it makes your arguements sounds so small. And again, duh, Ive only stated this about three time now, try to read what I post, please. Im tired of repeting myself. Tolkien was not the first person too write a Fantasy, Ive said that again now. However, the fantasy genre did not exist until he came, those were individual works and none of them had enough succes to inspire a wave of new writers, Im not saying Tolkien did it all by himself, there were other works during his time too. But the fact is that the LOTRO has sold over 200 000 000 copies during the last 50 years. And btw, the Eddas and the legend of Camelot are not fantasy. They are myth and legends, a very different thing as Im sure you are aware of.
Whether or not a game has a subscription has NOTHING to do with whether it's an MMO or not. There are plenty of MMOs with no subscription fee whatsoever.
In a way it does, whenever you play a free MMO you expect less from it than from a full pay-to-play game. I know I would expect more if I had to pay 100$ more a year for a game. Guild Wars is highly instanced but since it free it is a very good game. DDO do have a monthly subscription and naturaly you want more than what you did get in such a highley instanced world. Guild Wars would be totally down the shitter if they tried to take a fee, the game just dont have enough content for people to keep paying, its the same thing with DDO.
1. Be true to the lore 2. Have fun gameplay 3. Be constantly evolving 4. Allow players to do things that in one way or another affect the world while rule 1 is in affect.(such as bosses, story missions) 5. Attract people that are not fans of the lore, and keep them playing, even if they HATED the lotr books/movies.
I spent a while reading up on the LOTRO page today and I decided to see what everyone had to see here. And although I was disappointed just like most on how DDO was stricktly instanced based, because I felt like it took away from the exploration aspect of the DnD PnP that I have loved for so long. but I like that they tried something new, and I didnt like how it failed.
But, a couple things about this that I saw that I think play here, I think that by not allowing evil playable races and wizards, its sticking to the lore. they even talk about it. "No wizards because there were like 3 wizards"
They actual do mention examples of a changing world, the example they give was "for instance if a town is attacked, and the town loses. Then any player that heads to that town later, will see a burnt and ravaged town." although I think this needs to be exercized carefully I do like the direction, because it has always been something I wanted to see in an MMO.
I dont think I know as much about the intense gaming that I have seen here. But I have played most of the MMOs that have come out. and I was excited when I saw that this game wasnt about the IM GONNA GET MAX LEVEL SO I CAN BE THE BEST PVP'ER!!
I noticed that they were using the group chain concept which I havent seen much, which I think adds to the experience.
As far as my experience with Turbine. if DDO wasnt just instanced and there was much more of a living world to explore, I would probably still play it. which with this title is already a stated difference. I am really looking forward to seeing LOTRO come to life.
I for one am actually looking forward to LOTRO coming out. All in all, DDO wasn't THAT bad of a game..it just had a lack of content and solo playability until recently. AC2 was a total flop though, but nonetheless companies eventually learn from their mistakes and move on to be better.
I trust Turbine with this one as it's looking brilliant. The graphics alone look 10x better than Vanguard, AoC or Warhammer IMO.
I like how Turbine is being strict to the Lore about not having Wizards, etc. It's more realistic to the books. Realism is best.
Originally posted by Beldwyn I know I said i wouldnt respond but this just took the price.
"First of all, Warhammer is hardly inspired by LOTR if at all. It's no more inspired by LOTR than it is by any other fantasy."
Wow, its not like I just said that. Think again, yes Warhammer is of course inspired by other fantasy too, but what were they inspired by? Thats right, Tolkien.
"You seem to think that LOTR is the magic book that created the fantasy genre, but that's not true either. It's just another book in a long line of books. Some of the greatest Fantasy stories came before Tolkein. The stories of Camelot and the Knights of the Round, Niebelunginleid (sp?) from Germany, the Norse Eddas. Hell you could even say that LOTR was based on the bible if you really wanted. But I guess Tolkein is your personal God and master, so trying to have a conversation with a fanatic who think's lotr changed the entire world is really pointless."
Oh comon. Stop posting insults please, it makes your arguements sounds so small. And again, duh, Ive only stated this about three time now, try to read what I post, please. Im tired of repeting myself. Tolkien was not the first person too write a Fantasy, Ive said that again now. However, the fantasy genre did not exist until he came, those were individual works and none of them had enough succes to inspire a wave of new writers, Im not saying Tolkien did it all by himself, there were other works during his time too. But the fact is that the LOTRO has sold over 200 000 000 copies during the last 50 years. And btw, the Eddas and the legend of Camelot are not fantasy. They are myth and legends, a very different thing as Im sure you are aware of.
Whether or not a game has a subscription has NOTHING to do with whether it's an MMO or not. There are plenty of MMOs with no subscription fee whatsoever.
In a way it does, whenever you play a free MMO you expect less from it than from a full pay-to-play game. I know I would expect more if I had to pay 100$ more a year for a game. Guild Wars is highly instanced but since it free it is a very good game. DDO do have a monthly subscription and naturaly you want more than what you did get in such a highley instanced world. Guild Wars would be totally down the shitter if they tried to take a fee, the game just dont have enough content for people to keep paying, its the same thing with DDO.
Here's the problem. You keep repeating the same WRONG things.
"However, the fantasy genre did not exist until he came" That's wrong. Absolutely wrong. You can repeat that all you want but it won't ever be true. You claim that the stories of King Arthur, Niebelungenleid, and the Norse Eddas weren't "successful" enough to inspire writers? That's absolutely wrong too. Look at how many stories were written about Arthur. Look how many writers were inspired by the knights of the round table. Look how many stories were written about the Norse Gods. Look how many writers were inspired by their legends. I mean shit, I can name atleast 3 seperate movies and atleast 2 seperate cartoons all based on Arthurian legends alone. Oh and by the way, 200 million copies over 50 years isn't that much either. Myths and Legends are also included in the fantasy genre. In fact, THEY are what created the fantasy story genre. Not tolkein. Sorry.
Also, you totally miss the point about f2p and what it has to do with the conversation. Once again, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
How much you expect out of a game, or how much you're paying for it, still has absolutely nothing to do with making the game an MMO or not. Guild Wars would be a very good game whether it was free or not, whether it was instanced or not. It's a good game, not just because of one or two things. Still you don't seem to understand what makes a game an MMO, maybe you should look that up.
Finally here's where you missed the point. The point isn't whether DDO is instanced or not. If you had bothered to read some of my previous posts, you'd see where I explained it. How this relates to LOTRO is that it feels almost exactly like you're playing DDO when you play LOTRO. I've given plenty of examples in a previous post of why it feels that way. It has nothing to do with DDO being instanced, or Guild Wars being free. It's the game engine and the gameplay and the graphics and so much more that's similar. The exceptions (instancing) don't make the rule.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Regarding LOTRO breaking the 1 million barrier. That's a pretty big barrier that only 3 games at most have broken. Most notably WoW broke it. Depending on how you score them, Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 also broke the 1 million barrier.
The question is will LOTRO break the 1 mill barrier? It's a very good question. It's something I think about frequently with upcoming MMOs. Back when WoW was announced I was predicting that it would easily break the 1 million barrier when other people were still saying that was impossible.
Honestly, I don't think it will. I don't think LOTRO will be popular enough to break 1 million. It may get close but I don't think it'll get over that hump unless they have some sort of enticement to get the extra bit in there. The main reason for this is I think they missed their window. The movies are done and over with. LOTR hype was in full swing for a while, but people are tired of it now. The hype is dying down again to mostly the "hardcore lotr nerds" as someone once put it, and everyone else has moved on. If they'd released the game when the movies were still coming out and every board game had a LOTR version, and people were not afraid to dress up like Aragorn in the street, then maybe they could have done it.
However, I think they're just too far behind the wave to get the full benefit.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Here's the problem. You keep repeating the same WRONG things.
"However, the fantasy genre did not exist until he came" That's wrong. Absolutely wrong. You can repeat that all you want but it won't ever be true. You claim that the stories of King Arthur, Niebelungenleid, and the Norse Eddas weren't "successful" enough to inspire writers? That's absolutely wrong too. Look at how many stories were written about Arthur. Look how many writers were inspired by the knights of the round table. Look how many stories were written about the Norse Gods. Look how many writers were inspired by their legends. I mean shit, I can name atleast 3 seperate movies and atleast 2 seperate cartoons all based on Arthurian legends alone. Oh and by the way, 200 million copies over 50 years isn't that much either. Myths and Legends are also included in the fantasy genre. In fact, THEY are what created the fantasy story genre. Not tolkein. Sorry.
Also, you totally miss the point about f2p and what it has to do with the conversation. Once again, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
How much you expect out of a game, or how much you're paying for it, still has absolutely nothing to do with making the game an MMO or not. Guild Wars would be a very good game whether it was free or not, whether it was instanced or not. It's a good game, not just because of one or two things. Still you don't seem to understand what makes a game an MMO, maybe you should look that up.
Finally here's where you missed the point. The point isn't whether DDO is instanced or not. If you had bothered to read some of my previous posts, you'd see where I explained it. How this relates to LOTRO is that it feels almost exactly like you're playing DDO when you play LOTRO. I've given plenty of examples in a previous post of why it feels that way. It has nothing to do with DDO being instanced, or Guild Wars being free. It's the game engine and the gameplay and the graphics and so much more that's similar. The exceptions (instancing) don't make the rule.
You apparently dont know much about fantasy. The legend of King Arthur is not fantasy, it is a legend. Fantasy is a very different thing. Fantasy is fully fictional mostly in a world other than ourselfs. Legend and myth was once true storys that during centuries evolved into having magical parts. That is a very big difference, if the legend of King Arthur was fantasy than so would the Oddys
It's elves, not elfs. How people can get that wrong even after seeing all the postings on these forums, I'll never know.
You want fantasy? How about Cincerella? Stories of elves and leprechauns. Little Red Riding Hood. Sleeping Beauty. Beowulf. And yes, believe it or not, King Arthur is considered fantasy.
But you'll try to dismiss those as being "myth" or "fairy tales". Well, just what do you think fantasy is?
Originally posted by Beldwyn You apparently dont know much about fantasy. The legend of King Arthur is not fantasy, it is a legend. Fantasy is a very different thing. Fantasy is fully fictional mostly in a world other than ourselfs. Legend and myth was once true storys that during centuries evolved into having magical parts. That is a very big difference, if the legend of King Arthur was fantasy than so would the Oddys
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Blurr, thank you but I hope you realize that you violated the NDA by posting what you did about already playing LOTRO. I hope it doesn't backfire on you.
Comments
You can't make a game where only 1, or very few, people can be the hero and expect people to play it. People play games to be the hero or villan, not the dork that was in the back making boxes.
Exactly. That's why games based on popular story IPs like LOTR or Matrix or SWG will never work.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
And about end game "Same encounters" thats how every game will end up being after awhile. Every game ever made suffers from that same problem. And just for the record, PvP does as well. It's not the infinite never ending awesome never the same experience. Thats not saying it wont be enjoyable, thats another arguement in and of itself.
but thats not what this post is about.
This game will flop because its a turbine game. I'm not a lotr fan, but i sincerely want this game to succeed. Simply because i want more diversity on the mmo market.
Another reason is simply this... mmos based on existing unchangeable lore are in for a world of pain. WoW can take a few lore hits here and there, and theres alot of room for alteration and additions. But if LOTR does something similar then chances are its going to turn off the lotr fans.
This game has to:
1. Be true to the lore
2. Have fun gameplay
3. Be constantly evolving
4. Allow players to do things that in one way or another affect the world while rule 1 is in affect.(such as bosses, story missions)
5. Attract people that are not fans of the lore, and keep them playing, even if they HATED the lotr books/movies.
And i honestly don't think turbine can pull it off.
Bladin-
I think your post is a flop, why?
Firstly you choice of words are not universally recognized and agreed upon about turbine nor AC (1&2). Your opinion is precisely the opposite by those who ive seen who are actually PLAYING beta. Ive played both pve based and pvp based games and although this game seems to cater towards story driven pve, it still does not equate to being an ill-fated game if just by remarking on Turbine. Turbine is on a success level that puts them on a progressive track unlike your opinion which has brought ZERO income. Your opinion is dully rejected but noted nonetheless.
I'm sorry but I don't think you really know what you're talking about. You say that lotr is the biggest fantasy IP so Warhammer has to have been based on it? That's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard to date. You say "the truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkeins view of them" , which is also a giant load of crap. You say these things like you've got some evidence of the fact, but I know you don't because they're not true. For example, the idea of dwarves being short stoneworkers who live in the ground. That's not tolkeins idea, that was part of Norse mythology. At the very best, you can say that tolkeins views of fantasy races came from the same idea as other IPs views of fantasy races. Tolkein only created a very small amount of the things that were in his books. Perhaps Orcs, but I think that's about it. Everything else had already been mentioned long before, in very much the same manner as Tolkein wrote about it. Do your homework and go look this stuff up. You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created.
Also I've got a couple other news flashes for you. First of all, when I was talking about Warhammer and DnD, I was talking about the IPs, not the games based on them, which would be WAR and DDO. Secondly, the instancing in DDO wasn't a new thing for MMOs at all. Guild Wars was doing it before. So again you're wrong. It will probably happen again too. Guild Wars is successful with it, so it can be a successful game facet if you do it right.
Finally, I HAVE played LOTRO, and I HAVE played DDO. You think it's illogical to compare them because you haven't played them both and don't know what you're talking about. I'm not the only one comparing them either. Many people who have played both will very quickly draw the comparison between them because they are quite similar. See I'm not the one making assumptions, I'm making points based on facts. You are the one making assumptions and I think you need to get a reality check on saying you know how a game is when you haven't played it.
I suggest you try to comprehend what you read before you go into a rage and throwing random and unnecessary insults around you.
First of all, I did not say Warhammer was based on LotR. I only stated the fact that LotR, while not being the first fantasy ever, was what started the Fantasy genre and now is one of the most read books in the world. Warhammer, following up on the DnD was of course inspired (as many others) by LotR. I am not stating this in a way to demean Warhammer, nor is it a personal insult on you as you seem to think. Warhammer was partially inspired by LotR, just as LotR was partially inspired by Norse Mythology (among other things). Im not saying Warhammer is some sort of bad fanfiction of LotR, just as Im not saying LotR is a retelling of Norse Mytholigy (I hope your not trying to say Warhammer is based of norse mythology right?).
And I stated quite clearly that Tolkien was not the first with most of his characters, but the fact remains, Warhammer and most other fantasy did not get the idea for their dwarves or their elves from Norse mythology, elves in the Norse myth share very little resemblance to the Tolkien kind, and the same goes for trolls. Guess which elves Warhammers, or Warcrafts for that matter, is most similar too? Thats right, the Tolkien kinds.
"You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created."
Now a days yes, I did adress this topic in my latest post too, maybe you were too busy coming up more insults to notice. Anyway, the fantasy of today dont share much similarity with Tolkiens world, even less in the game business, the fantasy genre as evolved. And while most fantasy authors gladley admitt being inspired by Tolkien the scope of fantasy has grown and more fresh idea are coming. However, the gaming world has evolved differently, the old DnD and Warhammer has become their own base for the gaming fantasy. So therefor not many new games resemble Tolkien, they were inspired by fantsy inspired by Tolkien in most cases, or even further of than that. But your example of the dwarves is exactly my point. In norse mythology dwarves were crafters and often lived in the mountains, but they were not warriors, they were traders, cunning crafters and side figures. It was with Tolkien that they became stubborn, brave and stout warriors as we see them in todays fantasy. Im not saying everybody copied Tolkien, but his works and many of his ideas inspired the first wave of fantasy, and that is what we still can see traces of (while mostly extremely different and more simplistic in the gaming fantasy) today.
And Guild Wars is not the same as DDO, Guild Wars was first of all not a P2P game, nor did it have the interactive surroundings as DDO. They do however share the mainly instanced world, just as you said. But those small differencies I stated do, I belive, make a big difference as a MMO (if we can call them that at all).
And if you have played both LotrO and DDO as you claim you are not only saying things that seems very unlogical to me, you are also breaking the NDA, which will hopefully get you banned from the BETA.
I'm sorry but I don't think you really know what you're talking about. You say that lotr is the biggest fantasy IP so Warhammer has to have been based on it? That's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard to date. You say "the truth is that most fantasy has based their races on Tolkeins view of them" , which is also a giant load of crap. You say these things like you've got some evidence of the fact, but I know you don't because they're not true. For example, the idea of dwarves being short stoneworkers who live in the ground. That's not tolkeins idea, that was part of Norse mythology. At the very best, you can say that tolkeins views of fantasy races came from the same idea as other IPs views of fantasy races. Tolkein only created a very small amount of the things that were in his books. Perhaps Orcs, but I think that's about it. Everything else had already been mentioned long before, in very much the same manner as Tolkein wrote about it. Do your homework and go look this stuff up. You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created.
Also I've got a couple other news flashes for you. First of all, when I was talking about Warhammer and DnD, I was talking about the IPs, not the games based on them, which would be WAR and DDO. Secondly, the instancing in DDO wasn't a new thing for MMOs at all. Guild Wars was doing it before. So again you're wrong. It will probably happen again too. Guild Wars is successful with it, so it can be a successful game facet if you do it right.
Finally, I HAVE played LOTRO, and I HAVE played DDO. You think it's illogical to compare them because you haven't played them both and don't know what you're talking about. I'm not the only one comparing them either. Many people who have played both will very quickly draw the comparison between them because they are quite similar. See I'm not the one making assumptions, I'm making points based on facts. You are the one making assumptions and I think you need to get a reality check on saying you know how a game is when you haven't played it.
I suggest you try to comprehend what you read before you go into a rage and throwing random and unnecessary insults around you.
First of all, I did not say Warhammer was based on LotR. I only stated the fact that LotR, while not being the first fantasy ever, was what started the Fantasy genre and now is one of the most read books in the world. Warhammer, following up on the DnD was of course inspired (as many others) by LotR. I am not stating this in a way to demean Warhammer, nor is it a personal insult on you as you seem to think. Warhammer was partially inspired by LotR, just as LotR was partially inspired by Norse Mythology (among other things). Im not saying Warhammer is some sort of bad fanfiction of LotR, just as Im not saying LotR is a retelling of Norse Mytholigy (I hope your not trying to say Warhammer is based of norse mythology right?).
And I stated quite clearly that Tolkien was not the first with most of his characters, but the fact remains, Warhammer and most other fantasy did not get the idea for their dwarves or their elves from Norse mythology, elves in the Norse myth share very little resemblance to the Tolkien kind, and the same goes for trolls. Guess which elves Warhammers, or Warcrafts for that matter, is most similar too? Thats right, the Tolkien kinds.
"You can say what you want but in reality, only about 1% of fantasy IPs are based on anything that Tolkein uniquely created."
Now a days yes, I did adress this topic in my latest post too, maybe you were too busy coming up more insults to notice. Anyway, the fantasy of today dont share much similarity with Tolkiens world, even less in the game business, the fantasy genre as evolved. And while most fantasy authors gladley admitt being inspired by Tolkien the scope of fantasy has grown and more fresh idea are coming. However, the gaming world has evolved differently, the old DnD and Warhammer has become their own base for the gaming fantasy. So therefor not many new games resemble Tolkien, they were inspired by fantsy inspired by Tolkien in most cases, or even further of than that. But your example of the dwarves is exactly my point. In norse mythology dwarves were crafters and often lived in the mountains, but they were not warriors, they were traders, cunning crafters and side figures. It was with Tolkien that they became stubborn, brave and stout warriors as we see them in todays fantasy. Im not saying everybody copied Tolkien, but his works and many of his ideas inspired the first wave of fantasy, and that is what we still can see traces of (while mostly extremely different and more simplistic in the gaming fantasy) today.
And Guild Wars is not the same as DDO, Guild Wars was first of all not a P2P game, nor did it have the interactive surroundings as DDO. They do however share the mainly instanced world, just as you said. But those small differencies I stated do, I belive, make a big difference as a MMO (if we can call them that at all).
And if you have played both LotrO and DDO as you claim you are not only saying things that seems very unlogical to me, you are also breaking the NDA, which will hopefully get you banned from the BETA.
I don't need to throw around insults because I know how wrong you are. You strike me as someone who has made up things in his mind and decided that it's now all fact. You can think what you want but that doesn't make it true.
And yes, you DID say that warhammer was inspired by lotr. I can quote you if you like. LOTR isn't what started the fantasy genre simply because there were plenty of fantasy stories before it. You can say that the LOTR movies started fantasy films but you'd be wrong there too for the exact same reason. It seems to me you hold LOTR on a pedestal as being the one and only fantasy source, which would also be wrong. For example, the Warhammer setting is more based on norse mythology than it's based on lotr, which is very little to none indeed. Obviously neither is based SOLELY on Norse Mythology, but Warhammer carries more elements of things that the Norse myths created compared to what Tolkein created. And that's the way it always has been. Simply for the fact that LOTR didn't really do anything new other than have a good writer at the helm. Beyond tolkeins writing style, almost everything in the book had been done before. You can't attribute credit to tolkein for stuff he didn't create.
It's funny, you seem to take everything as an insult, perhaps you have a persecution complex. Or perhaps you just realize that you were the one who started throwing jabs and now you can't take your own medicine. Perhaps you've just realized how weak your arguments are.
Also, it's clear you're either new to the MMO genre or just don't know what you're talking about with the games. Firstly, whether Guild Wars is pay2play or not has nothing to do with how it's like DDO. You are the one who brought up the instancing and claiming that it's a new idea, whereas I showed you that you're wrong. Again, Guild Wars does have an interactive environment. Not necessarily to the extent of DDO but it's there. There are plenty of examples of this, such as the mission in Ascalon where you stop the catapult and then use it yourself.
All of this boils down to you thinking it's illogical (as opposed to unlogical). You don't like what I'm saying so you assume I must be wrong because it's not what your dream of LOTRO is. It'd be easy to dismiss me if I was the only one saying this, but I'm not. I'm not really going to bother trying to make you see what a flop the game will be, you can purchase the game and find out for yourself. Otherwise it would be like trying to describe a pile of dog poop to a blind man.
But it's glad to know you hope I get banned from beta. That's a petty comment I was expecting for sure.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Except that I wasn't writing a review, no matter how much you want to cry about what I've said. And again, I'm not the only one saying it.
If you don't want to hear it, simply stick your fingers in your ears and hum.
The reason why I'm not bothering to go that in depth into these things is because I don't really care to waste that much time on you. I know you're hardcore fanbois who toss it to the concept art, and frankly your opinion doesn't matter enough for me to care to change it. I mean, Turbine could literally take a dump and write LOTR on it, and a number of people would still worship it. (Which is pretty close to reality actually)
You can try to dismiss my remarks all you want, but as you guys seem to ignore, I'm not the only one saying these things. You don't have to listen to me and I couldn't care less what you think, but I know the game is just the same rehashed crap that caused problems for DDO. To anyone with sense, it just proves that Turbine doesn't know what it's doing. They got lucky with their first game, and everything since has been mediocre at best. I'm sorry you guys will have to find this out at the expense of your LOTR game, but when you blindly follow what developers and paid reviewers have to tell you, you won't see the cliff's edge.
But by all means, feel free to keep believing that the only truth is the comments that Turbine "leaked" about the beta. I'm sure it's the actual feelings of the entire beta community, and that they wouldn't take out anything that made the game look bad.
Blind faith ftw!
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
You are wrong, D&D franchise is bigger than LotR franchise; GAMING-wise.
Yes, D&D is inspired by Tolkien, but there stop your comparaison.
If you just take a walk into ANY gaming shop, and ask them what is their #1 seller from a list including D&D, LotR, and any other title...the only property that might beat D&D is Magic the Gathering. (you may walk upon a few WW fanatics however, cool games, but not even close...size-wise)
You are oblivious to gaming to think that LotR is even close to the might of the D&D franchise. Peoples who buy MMOs and play...they are GAMERS, not peoples watching movies. 90% of the LotR fans who happen to be gamers are also D&D fans in similar or stronger lust. If 50% of the D&D fans are LotR fans at a similar magnitude or stronger, I would be surprised.
Their GAMING flagship is D&D, LotR would be a wonderfull flagship, but it is 1 category weaker than D&D, gaming-wise. To think otherwise is just to lack at considering the facts from a GAMING point of view. Non-gamers aren't going to suddenly start play a game. LotR might have some chance, but with a RAIDING and lame-solo starts, Turbines is heading for a wall.
In case you didn't know, their are more than 1 TT game for LotR, trading cards, board games...yet, they are WAY behind D&D. If they even have 25% of the sells of D&D I would be surprised, it is prolly more about 10%.
Hollywood would tells you that LotR is a stronger franchise...but are you making a game or a movie? D&D is the ultimate franchise any gaming company could dream working on. If you precise to ONLINE gaming, then Diablo might be bigger or smaller than D&D, that is pretty hard to confine, since Diablo is quite successfull, but D&D has many dozens of titles...and this make a LOT in the long run.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well I've read about 10 pages of why I hate LotRO and why I Love it Or Why I wont play it or why I will play it. Figured Id skip the next two pages (11-12) since it was all the same from 1-10. There are many things making this game seem good and bad I think we can all agree on these listed below.
Pro's
1. Its Lord of the Rings, It was a great series of books and movies.
2. Developers are taking there time on it making sure its based on the actual books NOT THE MOVIES.
3. In Beta Games do get better over time. From what I've heard from beta members the game has completly changed since BETA release to now.
4. Screenshots show that the game has fantastic graphics.
5. Exploring is part of the game and should be fun atleast for the first couple of months or years it is out.
Con's
1. Turbine does have a bad reputation with MMO's almost as bad as EA with Ultima Online and others.
2. Turbine could be doing the game just for money from the franchise and we dont know what to expect at release.
3. THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE AN OPEN BETA
Well If I can think of anymore that you all have complained about ill be sure to edit the post but one thing I have to say about D&D Online is Real D&D Players would not play it Not here in Denver anyways, I walked into a store called the "wizards Chest" I saw a couple rooms one room was playing D&D and a few others were playing some other games. I saw a line by the D&D door I went over and asked Why not play D&D online he replied to me with "D&D online is not for real D&D players its going to be a game where you can not reach the limits of the Tabletop game." And I quote that from James Hashard who lives here in Colorado not sure if he lives in Denver or not.
Anofalye
When you said
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Originally posted by Anofalye
You are oblivious to gaming to think that LotR is even close to the might of the D&D franchise.
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You must remember in 1949 Lord of the Rings was made. You could say it was a biography depending on how you look at it. Anyways J.R Tolkien started writing LotR as a journal, he got most of his ideas from his journal while serving in World War 1 and World War 2 once he was out of the war It took him about 3 years or more to finish it and it was finally published in 1949. Exactly 25 Years before D&D ever exsisted (1974). The Lord of the Rings had more fans then ever because of the book called "The Hobbit" Lotr is actually a sequel to that book. As you know the fans of "The Hobbit" waited in anticipation for The Lord of the Rings and as you know is and always will be a huge hit around the world. If I am correct schools around the country(USA) are requiring english classes to read "The Hobbit" I may be wrong on that one but still if it is true then Why arnt kids being forced to read D&D Last stand of Kukarian(Not sure if thats a real D&D book name) or whatever book you would like to choose. I would say that The D&D Franchise is very huge but is in fact smaller then lord of the rings franchise because of the fact that its been around for over 70 years give or take a few and if you dont count the hobbit around 60 years. D&D is at a loss and has onlybeen around in the range of 30-40. And yes infact D&D was inspired by LotR.
You Also said
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Originally posted by Anofalye
In case you didn't know, their are more than 1 TT game for LotR, trading cards, board games...yet, they are WAY behind D&D. If they even have 25% of the sells of D&D I would be surprised, it is prolly more about 10%.
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Uuumm buddy I'd hate to break it to ya but I doubt D&D has hardly any sales compared to what LotR made off of just the books. Might I remind you now a days (1995-2006+) kids and teenagers hate trading cards I mean pokemon was cool for a while but For christ sake what are kids going to want 500 action figures or trading cards for. I mean Magic and Pokemon were cool but they are officially dead now well to some they are not but if you ask more people on the street "Do you think Magic and pokemon are dead?" They will say Whats that? If I did a questionare to a group of members in my neighborhood and asked Which one would you rather play on a computer Lord of the rings or Dungeons and Dragons I believe they would say Lord of the Ring. Younger kids would say because the movies were cool, Middle aged would say because I read the books and watched the movies and they were fantastic and very thrilling in the fantasy world. Old people would say What is lord of the rings because there senial or Say I have artheritis I could never play a game anyways.
Another note. World of Warcraft and the Southpark episode. 3 of my friends who do not own computers went out bought one and then once they got there next pay check went and bought World of Warcraft just because they saw how awesome it was in southpark. Point given people hear about lord of the rings game They play it simple as that. There is no LotR board game except this one that I know of.( I have played it and it sucked)
CLICK HERE FOR LINK
Anyways on to my point here You wont have people saying the game is being rejected because the people playing the board game wont get the full experience as roleplaying in the real world is.
I could go on forever Giving pro's and cons about D&D and Lord of the Rings but its 330 AM here and I dont want to be up any later Lol!
Just to let you know. Codemaster isn't doing an open beta. Nik and several devs on IRC hinted about the changes they were planning to happen before open beta starts. So in the good ol USA (NA) beta there will be an open beta.
Also thought i point out that tolkien himself stated that WWII had no influence on his perception and writing of LOTR. He got most of his ideas from Nordic mythos. He actually started writing LOTR as a childrens story for his kids but it evolved into a more serious book. The hobbit is a children's story that is loved by both children and adults. He started writing the silmarillion when he was in WW I and never did finish it before he died.
Anyway this game will rule. Well to me it will. I am sure the people who are beta testing read what is written about this game on this forum and others and laugh. All along thinking to themselves if these people only knew what this game was like. You can't condem a game you have never played, or seen enough info on to form a logical opinion. So it has non traditional pvp. Big deal. Not every game has to be a free for all kill or be kill game. If it doesn't suit your playstyle then move on to the next game. Bashing a game that doesn't suit your playstyle makes you look immature and spoiled. Be the bigger person and just admit the game is not for you and leave it at that.
This game is for me i know that and i am not going to sit here and glorify it just because it is. There has been alot of changes that i disagree with and alot i am happy with. That is the way games are. Make the best of it and either play it or don't play it.
I don't need to throw around insults because I know how wrong you are. You strike me as someone who has made up things in his mind and decided that it's now all fact. You can think what you want but that doesn't make it true.
Ah, the hipocracy is breath taking.And yes, you DID say that warhammer was inspired by lotr. I can quote you if you like. LOTR isn't what started the fantasy genre simply because there were plenty of fantasy stories before it. You can say that the LOTR movies started fantasy films but you'd be wrong there too for the exact same reason. It seems to me you hold LOTR on a pedestal as being the one and only fantasy source, which would also be wrong. For example, the Warhammer setting is more based on norse mythology than it's based on lotr, which is very little to none indeed. Obviously neither is based SOLELY on Norse Mythology, but Warhammer carries more elements of things that the Norse myths created compared to what Tolkein created. And that's the way it always has been. Simply for the fact that LOTR didn't really do anything new other than have a good writer at the helm. Beyond tolkeins writing style, almost everything in the book had been done before. You can't attribute credit to tolkein for stuff he didn't create.
I did say Warhammer was inspired by LotR, Ive never denied that. However you claimed I said it was based of lotr, there is a pretty big difference. And I state again (god, maybe you might actually read what I say this time), I did NOT (see, not) say the LotR was the first fantasy ever written. But before lotr the fantasy genre did not exist as such, no other fantasy had been as succesfull as lotr before, it had not yet becomen a genre. And again, I am fully aware of what Tolkien did and did not create, try read what I type instead of putting words in my mouth. And I hardly belive the makers of Warhammer sat down and read through Norse Myth (like Tolkien did) do get their ideas for Warhammer. Of course many different things in their ultimately come from those myth, but only because that was part of fantasy at that time and place, with Tolkien and those before him.It's funny, you seem to take everything as an insult, perhaps you have a persecution complex. Or perhaps you just realize that you were the one who started throwing jabs and now you can't take your own medicine. Perhaps you've just realized how weak your arguments are.
I started with the jabs? Hardly. I merely noticed how you seemed to be unable to have a serious debate and keep it a civil level, your behaviour have made this my last response to you in this thread, no matter how you bait me the next time.
Also, it's clear you're either new to the MMO genre or just don't know what you're talking about with the games. Firstly, whether Guild Wars is pay2play or not has nothing to do with how it's like DDO. You are the one who brought up the instancing and claiming that it's a new idea, whereas I showed you that you're wrong. Again, Guild Wars does have an interactive environment. Not necessarily to the extent of DDO but it's there. There are plenty of examples of this, such as the mission in Ascalon where you stop the catapult and then use it yourself.
The fact that Guild Wars dont have any subscription changes that game quite a lot, it becomes an ORPG instead of a MMORPG, which was what DDO tried to be while lacking in a lot ways to normal MMOs. I belive that if DDO wouldnt had subscription fee it would probably get a pretty different response from the gaming world.
All of this boils down to you thinking it's illogical (as opposed to unlogical). You don't like what I'm saying so you assume I must be wrong because it's not what your dream of LOTRO is. It'd be easy to dismiss me if I was the only one saying this, but I'm not. I'm not really going to bother trying to make you see what a flop the game will be, you can purchase the game and find out for yourself. Otherwise it would be like trying to describe a pile of dog poop to a blind man.
Your oppinion, as seeing from your post you seems like a pretty different person than myself.
But it's glad to know you hope I get banned from beta. That's a petty comment I was expecting for sure.
If this was supposed to prove something you failed miserably.
You are wrong, D&D franchise is bigger than LotR franchise; GAMING-wise.
Yes, D&D is inspired by Tolkien, but there stop your comparaison.
If you just take a walk into ANY gaming shop, and ask them what is their #1 seller from a list including D&D, LotR, and any other title...the only property that might beat D&D is Magic the Gathering. (you may walk upon a few WW fanatics however, cool games, but not even close...size-wise)
You are oblivious to gaming to think that LotR is even close to the might of the D&D franchise. Peoples who buy MMOs and play...they are GAMERS, not peoples watching movies. 90% of the LotR fans who happen to be gamers are also D&D fans in similar or stronger lust. If 50% of the D&D fans are LotR fans at a similar magnitude or stronger, I would be surprised.
Their GAMING flagship is D&D, LotR would be a wonderfull flagship, but it is 1 category weaker than D&D, gaming-wise. To think otherwise is just to lack at considering the facts from a GAMING point of view. Non-gamers aren't going to suddenly start play a game. LotR might have some chance, but with a RAIDING and lame-solo starts, Turbines is heading for a wall.
In case you didn't know, their are more than 1 TT game for LotR, trading cards, board games...yet, they are WAY behind D&D. If they even have 25% of the sells of D&D I would be surprised, it is prolly more about 10%.
Hollywood would tells you that LotR is a stronger franchise...but are you making a game or a movie? D&D is the ultimate franchise any gaming company could dream working on. If you precise to ONLINE gaming, then Diablo might be bigger or smaller than D&D, that is pretty hard to confine, since Diablo is quite successfull, but D&D has many dozens of titles...and this make a LOT in the long run.
lol. No, you're wrong. LOTR came first. DnD is based off LOTR. LOTR started the whole modern fantasy style. I've played DnD for many years. And LOTR itself has only JUST been turned into a game.
I don't really care that DDO is a bigger game right now. Of course it is. LOTRO hasn't been released yet. That's not the point and you know it. LOTR is not just about the game. LOTR started it all. The sooner you realize that, the better.
Not to mention, how in bloody hell can you compare 22 of TT gaming vs 5 (maybe not even that much) on the computer? Because DnD has been out for 22 years. They've had alot of time to refine the game.
You want to talk about Turbine creating DnD and LOTR for the ONLINE gaming community? Ok, let's talk about it. DnD has already been out for quite a while. Vs. a game that is still in beta.
And you think you can decide whether it's good or bad when you haven't even seen it yet?
So, I repeat, you can't compare 22 years of gaming creation experience from WoTC in TT (tabletop for those that don't know and DnD is on TT, not ONLINE) vs. a not even released game that's online.
They're two different entities. Just like books, movies, and a whole bloody franchise that's much older than one game can't be compared to one game that's not even released yet.
Should I just smack you up the back of the head now?
But look at turbines record
AC1, good game ill agree.
Ac2, good game, but was a complete and utter failure.(and i honestly wish it still existed, id be playing it)
DDO, decent game, suffers from content issues, as well as a wide variety of others, and a overall lackluster/poor game, basically a flop.
LOTRO, will it be good? i hope so.
But from what ive seen, past ac1 turbine hasnt done anything truely right. theres alot of novelists, and game companies that really make it big with a title, and then can never meet up with the initial ones quality
1 out of 3 games being a success isn't that good for a companies record.
And even if you take a look at AC subscriber numbers AC1 never truely became popular, DAoC, EQ, and UO(some of the first mmos) all exceeded AC's numbers. And ever since the initial spike of ac subscribers, ac has been in a constant state of decline.
This game could be turbines saving grace. It could be fantastic, it could be awesome to the max(and i honestly hope it is)... But considering turbines honest record, its got alot to live up to.
In fact the way things are looking, if lotr is NOT a success and flops, then chances are turbine may just disband and close down ac/ddo/lotr.
1 canceled game, 1 dieing game, and 1 unpopular game...turbine is not very successful
I don't need to throw around insults because I know how wrong you are. You strike me as someone who has made up things in his mind and decided that it's now all fact. You can think what you want but that doesn't make it true.
Ah, the hipocracy is breath taking.And yes, you DID say that warhammer was inspired by lotr. I can quote you if you like. LOTR isn't what started the fantasy genre simply because there were plenty of fantasy stories before it. You can say that the LOTR movies started fantasy films but you'd be wrong there too for the exact same reason. It seems to me you hold LOTR on a pedestal as being the one and only fantasy source, which would also be wrong. For example, the Warhammer setting is more based on norse mythology than it's based on lotr, which is very little to none indeed. Obviously neither is based SOLELY on Norse Mythology, but Warhammer carries more elements of things that the Norse myths created compared to what Tolkein created. And that's the way it always has been. Simply for the fact that LOTR didn't really do anything new other than have a good writer at the helm. Beyond tolkeins writing style, almost everything in the book had been done before. You can't attribute credit to tolkein for stuff he didn't create.
I did say Warhammer was inspired by LotR, Ive never denied that. However you claimed I said it was based of lotr, there is a pretty big difference. And I state again (god, maybe you might actually read what I say this time), I did NOT (see, not) say the LotR was the first fantasy ever written. But before lotr the fantasy genre did not exist as such, no other fantasy had been as succesfull as lotr before, it had not yet becomen a genre. And again, I am fully aware of what Tolkien did and did not create, try read what I type instead of putting words in my mouth. And I hardly belive the makers of Warhammer sat down and read through Norse Myth (like Tolkien did) do get their ideas for Warhammer. Of course many different things in their ultimately come from those myth, but only because that was part of fantasy at that time and place, with Tolkien and those before him.It's funny, you seem to take everything as an insult, perhaps you have a persecution complex. Or perhaps you just realize that you were the one who started throwing jabs and now you can't take your own medicine. Perhaps you've just realized how weak your arguments are.
I started with the jabs? Hardly. I merely noticed how you seemed to be unable to have a serious debate and keep it a civil level, your behaviour have made this my last response to you in this thread, no matter how you bait me the next time.
Also, it's clear you're either new to the MMO genre or just don't know what you're talking about with the games. Firstly, whether Guild Wars is pay2play or not has nothing to do with how it's like DDO. You are the one who brought up the instancing and claiming that it's a new idea, whereas I showed you that you're wrong. Again, Guild Wars does have an interactive environment. Not necessarily to the extent of DDO but it's there. There are plenty of examples of this, such as the mission in Ascalon where you stop the catapult and then use it yourself.
The fact that Guild Wars dont have any subscription changes that game quite a lot, it becomes an ORPG instead of a MMORPG, which was what DDO tried to be while lacking in a lot ways to normal MMOs. I belive that if DDO wouldnt had subscription fee it would probably get a pretty different response from the gaming world.
All of this boils down to you thinking it's illogical (as opposed to unlogical). You don't like what I'm saying so you assume I must be wrong because it's not what your dream of LOTRO is. It'd be easy to dismiss me if I was the only one saying this, but I'm not. I'm not really going to bother trying to make you see what a flop the game will be, you can purchase the game and find out for yourself. Otherwise it would be like trying to describe a pile of dog poop to a blind man.
Your oppinion, as seeing from your post you seems like a pretty different person than myself.
But it's glad to know you hope I get banned from beta. That's a petty comment I was expecting for sure.
If this was supposed to prove something you failed miserably.
You know, your quoting and putting responses in red looks so much like this other guy who also doesn't really read what people say. He just takes the phrases he can attack and ignores the rest too. I wouldn't be surprised if you're the same guy and your first account just got banned. However, I'd be careful because if that's not the case than someone would think you are posting with 2 seperate accounts. Might wanna watch that.
I don't know what to tell you. You don't seem to know the difference between an insult and stated opinion. My suggestion is practice your reading comprehension.
First of all, Warhammer is hardly inspired by LOTR if at all. It's no more inspired by LOTR than it is by any other fantasy.
You seem to think that LOTR is the magic book that created the fantasy genre, but that's not true either. It's just another book in a long line of books. Some of the greatest Fantasy stories came before Tolkein. The stories of Camelot and the Knights of the Round, Niebelunginleid (sp?) from Germany, the Norse Eddas. Hell you could even say that LOTR was based on the bible if you really wanted. But I guess Tolkein is your personal God and master, so trying to have a conversation with a fanatic who think's lotr changed the entire world is really pointless.
Once again I see you can't take your medicine. Instead you start throwing insults and then say "you can't insult me, I'm not talking to you". Feel free to take your ball and go home too.
Whether or not a game has a subscription has NOTHING to do with whether it's an MMO or not. There are plenty of MMOs with no subscription fee whatsoever.
This just proves to me that you don't know how the genre works.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
we havent heard or seen any ground breaking features yet but like vanguard and WAR the devs are keeping cards close to their chests. with BC on the horizon they made the right choice to release it next year either way.
You know, your quoting and putting responses in red looks so much like this other guy who also doesn't really read what people say. He just takes the phrases he can attack and ignores the rest too. I wouldn't be surprised if you're the same guy and your first account just got banned. However, I'd be careful because if that's not the case than someone would think you are posting with 2 seperate accounts. Might wanna watch that.
I don't know what to tell you. You don't seem to know the difference between an insult and stated opinion. My suggestion is practice your reading comprehension.
First of all, Warhammer is hardly inspired by LOTR if at all. It's no more inspired by LOTR than it is by any other fantasy.
You seem to think that LOTR is the magic book that created the fantasy genre, but that's not true either. It's just another book in a long line of books. Some of the greatest Fantasy stories came before Tolkein. The stories of Camelot and the Knights of the Round, Niebelunginleid (sp?) from Germany, the Norse Eddas. Hell you could even say that LOTR was based on the bible if you really wanted. But I guess Tolkein is your personal God and master, so trying to have a conversation with a fanatic who think's lotr changed the entire world is really pointless.
Once again I see you can't take your medicine. Instead you start throwing insults and then say "you can't insult me, I'm not talking to you". Feel free to take your ball and go home too.
Whether or not a game has a subscription has NOTHING to do with whether it's an MMO or not. There are plenty of MMOs with no subscription fee whatsoever.
This just proves to me that you don't know how the genre works.
I know I said i wouldnt respond but this just took the price.
"First of all, Warhammer is hardly inspired by LOTR if at all. It's no more inspired by LOTR than it is by any other fantasy."
Wow, its not like I just said that. Think again, yes Warhammer is of course inspired by other fantasy too, but what were they inspired by? Thats right, Tolkien.
"You seem to think that LOTR is the magic book that created the fantasy genre, but that's not true either. It's just another book in a long line of books. Some of the greatest Fantasy stories came before Tolkein. The stories of Camelot and the Knights of the Round, Niebelunginleid (sp?) from Germany, the Norse Eddas. Hell you could even say that LOTR was based on the bible if you really wanted. But I guess Tolkein is your personal God and master, so trying to have a conversation with a fanatic who think's lotr changed the entire world is really pointless."
Oh comon. Stop posting insults please, it makes your arguements sounds so small. And again, duh, Ive only stated this about three time now, try to read what I post, please. Im tired of repeting myself. Tolkien was not the first person too write a Fantasy, Ive said that again now. However, the fantasy genre did not exist until he came, those were individual works and none of them had enough succes to inspire a wave of new writers, Im not saying Tolkien did it all by himself, there were other works during his time too. But the fact is that the LOTRO has sold over 200 000 000 copies during the last 50 years.
And btw, the Eddas and the legend of Camelot are not fantasy. They are myth and legends, a very different thing as Im sure you are aware of.
Whether or not a game has a subscription has NOTHING to do with whether it's an MMO or not. There are plenty of MMOs with no subscription fee whatsoever.
In a way it does, whenever you play a free MMO you expect less from it than from a full pay-to-play game. I know I would expect more if I had to pay 100$ more a year for a game. Guild Wars is highly instanced but since it free it is a very good game. DDO do have a monthly subscription and naturaly you want more than what you did get in such a highley instanced world. Guild Wars would be totally down the shitter if they tried to take a fee, the game just dont have enough content for people to keep paying, its the same thing with DDO.
1. Be true to the lore
2. Have fun gameplay
3. Be constantly evolving
4. Allow players to do things that in one way or another affect the world while rule 1 is in affect.(such as bosses, story missions)
5. Attract people that are not fans of the lore, and keep them playing, even if they HATED the lotr books/movies.
I spent a while reading up on the LOTRO page today and I decided to see what everyone had to see here. And although I was disappointed just like most on how DDO was stricktly instanced based, because I felt like it took away from the exploration aspect of the DnD PnP that I have loved for so long. but I like that they tried something new, and I didnt like how it failed.
But, a couple things about this that I saw that I think play here, I think that by not allowing evil playable races and wizards, its sticking to the lore. they even talk about it. "No wizards because there were like 3 wizards"
They actual do mention examples of a changing world, the example they give was "for instance if a town is attacked, and the town loses. Then any player that heads to that town later, will see a burnt and ravaged town." although I think this needs to be exercized carefully I do like the direction, because it has always been something I wanted to see in an MMO.
I dont think I know as much about the intense gaming that I have seen here. But I have played most of the MMOs that have come out. and I was excited when I saw that this game wasnt about the IM GONNA GET MAX LEVEL SO I CAN BE THE BEST PVP'ER!!
I noticed that they were using the group chain concept which I havent seen much, which I think adds to the experience.
As far as my experience with Turbine. if DDO wasnt just instanced and there was much more of a living world to explore, I would probably still play it. which with this title is already a stated difference. I am really looking forward to seeing LOTRO come to life.
I for one am actually looking forward to LOTRO coming out. All in all, DDO wasn't THAT bad of a game..it just had a lack of content and solo playability until recently. AC2 was a total flop though, but nonetheless companies eventually learn from their mistakes and move on to be better.
I trust Turbine with this one as it's looking brilliant. The graphics alone look 10x better than Vanguard, AoC or Warhammer IMO.
I like how Turbine is being strict to the Lore about not having Wizards, etc. It's more realistic to the books. Realism is best.
Here's the problem. You keep repeating the same WRONG things.
"However, the fantasy genre did not exist until he came" That's wrong. Absolutely wrong. You can repeat that all you want but it won't ever be true. You claim that the stories of King Arthur, Niebelungenleid, and the Norse Eddas weren't "successful" enough to inspire writers? That's absolutely wrong too. Look at how many stories were written about Arthur. Look how many writers were inspired by the knights of the round table. Look how many stories were written about the Norse Gods. Look how many writers were inspired by their legends. I mean shit, I can name atleast 3 seperate movies and atleast 2 seperate cartoons all based on Arthurian legends alone. Oh and by the way, 200 million copies over 50 years isn't that much either. Myths and Legends are also included in the fantasy genre. In fact, THEY are what created the fantasy story genre. Not tolkein. Sorry.
Also, you totally miss the point about f2p and what it has to do with the conversation. Once again, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
How much you expect out of a game, or how much you're paying for it, still has absolutely nothing to do with making the game an MMO or not. Guild Wars would be a very good game whether it was free or not, whether it was instanced or not. It's a good game, not just because of one or two things. Still you don't seem to understand what makes a game an MMO, maybe you should look that up.
Finally here's where you missed the point. The point isn't whether DDO is instanced or not. If you had bothered to read some of my previous posts, you'd see where I explained it. How this relates to LOTRO is that it feels almost exactly like you're playing DDO when you play LOTRO. I've given plenty of examples in a previous post of why it feels that way. It has nothing to do with DDO being instanced, or Guild Wars being free. It's the game engine and the gameplay and the graphics and so much more that's similar. The exceptions (instancing) don't make the rule.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Oh I wanted to add one thing.
Regarding LOTRO breaking the 1 million barrier. That's a pretty big barrier that only 3 games at most have broken. Most notably WoW broke it. Depending on how you score them, Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 also broke the 1 million barrier.
The question is will LOTRO break the 1 mill barrier? It's a very good question. It's something I think about frequently with upcoming MMOs. Back when WoW was announced I was predicting that it would easily break the 1 million barrier when other people were still saying that was impossible.
Honestly, I don't think it will. I don't think LOTRO will be popular enough to break 1 million. It may get close but I don't think it'll get over that hump unless they have some sort of enticement to get the extra bit in there. The main reason for this is I think they missed their window. The movies are done and over with. LOTR hype was in full swing for a while, but people are tired of it now. The hype is dying down again to mostly the "hardcore lotr nerds" as someone once put it, and everyone else has moved on. If they'd released the game when the movies were still coming out and every board game had a LOTR version, and people were not afraid to dress up like Aragorn in the street, then maybe they could have done it.
However, I think they're just too far behind the wave to get the full benefit.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Here's the problem. You keep repeating the same WRONG things.
"However, the fantasy genre did not exist until he came" That's wrong. Absolutely wrong. You can repeat that all you want but it won't ever be true. You claim that the stories of King Arthur, Niebelungenleid, and the Norse Eddas weren't "successful" enough to inspire writers? That's absolutely wrong too. Look at how many stories were written about Arthur. Look how many writers were inspired by the knights of the round table. Look how many stories were written about the Norse Gods. Look how many writers were inspired by their legends. I mean shit, I can name atleast 3 seperate movies and atleast 2 seperate cartoons all based on Arthurian legends alone. Oh and by the way, 200 million copies over 50 years isn't that much either. Myths and Legends are also included in the fantasy genre. In fact, THEY are what created the fantasy story genre. Not tolkein. Sorry.
Also, you totally miss the point about f2p and what it has to do with the conversation. Once again, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
How much you expect out of a game, or how much you're paying for it, still has absolutely nothing to do with making the game an MMO or not. Guild Wars would be a very good game whether it was free or not, whether it was instanced or not. It's a good game, not just because of one or two things. Still you don't seem to understand what makes a game an MMO, maybe you should look that up.
Finally here's where you missed the point. The point isn't whether DDO is instanced or not. If you had bothered to read some of my previous posts, you'd see where I explained it. How this relates to LOTRO is that it feels almost exactly like you're playing DDO when you play LOTRO. I've given plenty of examples in a previous post of why it feels that way. It has nothing to do with DDO being instanced, or Guild Wars being free. It's the game engine and the gameplay and the graphics and so much more that's similar. The exceptions (instancing) don't make the rule.
You apparently dont know much about fantasy. The legend of King Arthur is not fantasy, it is a legend. Fantasy is a very different thing. Fantasy is fully fictional mostly in a world other than ourselfs. Legend and myth was once true storys that during centuries evolved into having magical parts. That is a very big difference, if the legend of King Arthur was fantasy than so would the Oddys
It's elves, not elfs. How people can get that wrong even after seeing all the postings on these forums, I'll never know.
You want fantasy? How about Cincerella? Stories of elves and leprechauns. Little Red Riding Hood. Sleeping Beauty. Beowulf. And yes, believe it or not, King Arthur is considered fantasy.
But you'll try to dismiss those as being "myth" or "fairy tales". Well, just what do you think fantasy is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy
Or how about this from dictionary.com
fan·ta·sy (f
n. pl. fan·ta·sies
- The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy. See Synonyms at imagination.
- Something, such as an invention, that is a creation of the fancy.
- A capricious or fantastic idea; a conceit.
- Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements.
- An example of such fiction.
- An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need.
- An unrealistic or improbable supposition.
- Music. See fantasia.
- A coin issued especially by a questionable authority and not intended for use as currency.
- Obsolete. A hallucination.
By these definitions, yes, King Arthur is fantasy.I think you'te the one that needs to do more research before you speak, Beldwyn.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000