Originally posted by Dekron ob1sr, Please don't think I was taking a stab at Islam, or yourself with my questions. I was just asking away. I never did say that it stated in the Qur'an that extremism is the correct form of practicing, nor did I say that I agreed with the Pope. I am looking at this non-biased. I am agnostic, so, I do not disagree, nor agree with either side. I was just trying to get your side since there are not very many Muslims on the boards. I hate hearing the side of Muslims from Christians and the side of Christians from Muslims. So, I was just asking. Apologies if you offense to anything.
No problem Dekron, as long as you are wondering and asking to know the truth, even though some questions seem to be offensive, we as muslims must be open minded.
Originally posted by Khuzarrz Originally posted by ob1sr Originally posted by Finwe Originally posted by ob1sr Such foul words from that old man you call the pope, seriously, since when Islam spread by the sword? the muslims have protected themselves against invasions, see who started the Crusade, see why they started the crusade, see how the muslims occupied what was recaptured by the crusades, if you can understand what i mean that is.
Conquest of Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Spain - All very Christian lands before their capture by Islamic armies. If it wasn't for Charles Martel stopping them at the Battle of Tours, all of Europe probably would have been converted by the sword.
Lies?
how many casualties in these wars of conquest as you describe them? on top of that most of conversions were from invitations to Islam.
go back to history where fair people write it, you'll find that your claims are not true.
Finwe, I think i'd better translate for you here. 'Fair' means 'Islam and in agreement with my personal beliefs.'
There are no lies here OneMuslim, he's spot on on all of his points - and the only way they were from 'invitations' were in the same way Hungary was 'invited' to join the Warsaw Pact.
Also, do you not think the actions of those Muslims in Britain, constantly threatening white British people and making claims that Britain will only be 'safe' when it is under Islamic law, or those suicide bombers in Bali and London (and other countries of course) are spreading by the sword? Though I HATE to mention them, the 9/11 attacks (if in fact carried out by Al Queda) were done in attempt to make the West see the error of their ways and join fundamentalist Islam... Whether your opinion of what makes a muslim 'good' does not extend to these folk aparently (what about the Palestinians btw? Or the Lebanese? 'Driving the jews into the sea'...) that does not excuse that they ARE muslims, by claim and by observation. Maybe ALL muslims don't spread their word by the sword, but a large group do/have.
Originally posted by Khuzarrz Originally posted by ob1sr Originally posted by Finwe Originally posted by ob1sr Such foul words from that old man you call the pope, seriously, since when Islam spread by the sword? the muslims have protected themselves against invasions, see who started the Crusade, see why they started the crusade, see how the muslims occupied what was recaptured by the crusades, if you can understand what i mean that is.
Conquest of Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Spain - All very Christian lands before their capture by Islamic armies. If it wasn't for Charles Martel stopping them at the Battle of Tours, all of Europe probably would have been converted by the sword.
Lies?
how many casualties in these wars of conquest as you describe them? on top of that most of conversions were from invitations to Islam.
go back to history where fair people write it, you'll find that your claims are not true.
Finwe, I think i'd better translate for you here. 'Fair' means 'Islam and in agreement with my personal beliefs.'
There are no lies here OneMuslim, he's spot on on all of his points - and the only way they were from 'invitations' were in the same way Hungary was 'invited' to join the Warsaw Pact.
Also, do you not think the actions of those Muslims in Britain, constantly threatening white British people and making claims that Britain will only be 'safe' when it is under Islamic law, or those suicide bombers in Bali and London (and other countries of course) are spreading by the sword? Though I HATE to mention them, the 9/11 attacks (if in fact carried out by Al Queda) were done in attempt to make the West see the error of their ways and join fundamentalist Islam... Whether your opinion of what makes a muslim 'good' does not extend to these folk aparently (what about the Palestinians btw? Or the Lebanese? 'Driving the jews into the sea'...) that does not excuse that they ARE muslims, by claim and by observation. Maybe ALL muslims don't spread their word by the sword, but a large group do/have.
I personally feel that the islam are a few hundred years behind christianity. what extreme muslim groups are doing now, is what the Crusaders did hundreds of years ago.
Such foul words from that old man you call the pope, seriously, since when Islam spread by the sword? the muslims have protected themselves against invasions, see who started the Crusade, see why they started the crusade, see how the muslims occupied what was recaptured by the crusades, if you can understand what i mean that is.
Conquest of Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Spain - All very Christian lands before their capture by Islamic armies. If it wasn't for Charles Martel stopping them at the Battle of Tours, all of Europe probably would have been converted by the sword.
Lies?
Not to my knowledge.
how many casualties in these wars of conquest as you describe them?
No idea, haven't researched it.
on top of that most of conversions were from invitations to Islam.
Invitation? I do not believe they invited to be conquered.
go back to history where fair people write it, you'll find that your claims are not true.
Erm? It's history 101.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
A. The modern Church Hierarchy did not exist at the time, there wasnt any such thing as a Bishop Actually, there were. Episkopos. Bishops. Now, I didn't say the hiercarchy was it is today. But the role of bishop was in use. The Episkopos. B. Christianity was Illegal, there could not have been more than 100 religious leaders of any stripe anywhere near the Roman Empire, much less 250 Not sure what you base your numbers on. C. The council of which I speak (NOT THE NICAEAN ONE) was attended by Constantine's advisors and Senate leaders, all "proper" Romans. Ok, what council are you speaking of? If I go by the "legalization of christianity" then you're talking about the Edict of Milan, right? If so, I've never seen anthing to suggest that council decided what books would be kept, or not. The only thing I've ever read about the Edict was that it ended persocution (well, it was suppossed to) of the christians. Nor, was it made the official roman religion at the Edict.
Originally posted by ob1sr we as muslims must be open minded.
Did noone else 'lol' at this statement?...
And the post was NOT a 'blame Islam not muslims' post. Your presumption to that effect shows a total lack of common sense. You had proposed that Islam was not a religion that had converted followers 'using the sword'. I gave you some examples of times it was. Just because you were not one of the muslims involved, and your personal ideology may differ from theres does NOT change the FACT that muslims HAVE 'used the sword' (for lack of a better phrase).
Catholics accept collective blame for the Crusades... Why is it so hard for muslims to do the same? Why are muslims constantly so defensive? As a 'christian' society in the west, we're constantly subject to Ayatolas (sp?) preaching that our way of life is sinful and we should be 'washed from the earth' or 'cleansed'... I've not once risen to that, nor have any but the most racist of my countrymen. Yet a single quote OUT OF CONTEXT IN FACT can make the entire Islamic east scream blue murder and declare a new holy war... Does that not seem f*cked up to you?
Actually I think some of you are missing one of the major points of religion in general.
Free Will.
You ask why God didn't choose a better medium than having a man write a book for him. Well that's kinda the point.
If God came down and sat in a chair every sunday told us the rules and outlined the checklist of things that let us get into heaven, then it would be a no brainer. You would know God existed, you would know whether you were going to heaven, you would know what the rules were, you would know everything you needed to know, and you wouldn't have to learn or experience things for yourself.
You wouldn't need faith, hope, forgiveness, charity, anything like that because you'd know what was coming and what people's fates would be.
God doesn't want you to take a checklist that you can prove He wrote and do x, y, and z so you'll get into heaven. That's not a life anymore, that's following orders.
One of the major points of life is to find all these things out for yourself, make your own decisions, take the consequences.
One of the things that had always kinda bugged me about religion was "If God is so omnipotent, why does he need us to worship him?". Well I figured it out. He doesn't really need us to worship him. He would like us to but he won't force us to.
Forcing us to worship him is a very different thing than giving us a suggestion, which is possible to doubt, and us choosing to worship anyways of our own free will.
And for the record, yes the days of the week reflect pagan origins. Sun Day, Moon Day, Tyr's Day, Woden's Day, Thor's Day, Freya's Day, Saturn's Day (Saturn was viewed as the correlary of Loki)
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Actually I think some of you are missing one of the major points of religion in general. Free Will. You ask why God didn't choose a better medium than having a man write a book for him. Well that's kinda the point. If God came down and sat in a chair every sunday told us the rules and outlined the checklist of things that let us get into heaven, then it would be a no brainer. You would know God existed, you would know whether you were going to heaven, you would know what the rules were, you would know everything you needed to know, and you wouldn't have to learn or experience things for yourself. You wouldn't need faith, hope, forgiveness, charity, anything like that because you'd know what was coming and what people's fates would be. God doesn't want you to take a checklist that you can prove He wrote and do x, y, and z so you'll get into heaven. That's not a life anymore, that's following orders. One of the major points of life is to find all these things out for yourself, make your own decisions, take the consequences. One of the things that had always kinda bugged me about religion was "If God is so omnipotent, why does he need us to worship him?". Well I figured it out. He doesn't really need us to worship him. He would like us to but he won't force us to. Forcing us to worship him is a very different thing than giving us a suggestion, which is possible to doubt, and us choosing to worship anyways of our own free will. And for the record, yes the days of the week reflect pagan origins. Sun Day, Moon Day, Tyr's Day, Woden's Day, Thor's Day, Freya's Day, Saturn's Day (Saturn was viewed as the correlary of Loki)
I think you missed the point actually. Free will in our world is a nonsense. If God were to be here saying "these are my wishes for you...." then free will would actually serve a purpose. As it stands now, we have freewill to follow any idea we wish as we know no better who is the liar and who is telling the truth with their 'faiths'. If God were actually manifested, or provable then our freewill would serve a purpose - work with, or against him. You seem to be making the assumption that if everyone knew there was a God, they'd follow his rule. Check out those pages on Lucifer
Originally posted by Blurr Actually I think some of you are missing one of the major points of religion in general. Free Will. You ask why God didn't choose a better medium than having a man write a book for him. Well that's kinda the point. If God came down and sat in a chair every sunday told us the rules and outlined the checklist of things that let us get into heaven, then it would be a no brainer. You would know God existed, you would know whether you were going to heaven, you would know what the rules were, you would know everything you needed to know, and you wouldn't have to learn or experience things for yourself. You wouldn't need faith, hope, forgiveness, charity, anything like that because you'd know what was coming and what people's fates would be. God doesn't want you to take a checklist that you can prove He wrote and do x, y, and z so you'll get into heaven. That's not a life anymore, that's following orders. One of the major points of life is to find all these things out for yourself, make your own decisions, take the consequences. One of the things that had always kinda bugged me about religion was "If God is so omnipotent, why does he need us to worship him?". Well I figured it out. He doesn't really need us to worship him. He would like us to but he won't force us to. Forcing us to worship him is a very different thing than giving us a suggestion, which is possible to doubt, and us choosing to worship anyways of our own free will. And for the record, yes the days of the week reflect pagan origins. Sun Day, Moon Day, Tyr's Day, Woden's Day, Thor's Day, Freya's Day, Saturn's Day (Saturn was viewed as the correlary of Loki)
God told me to write the following. I am not kidding. He really did. It came to me in a vision today. At first I was scared of the stuff I saw, but suddenly I knew who it was. It was wonderful. Here is what he told me to tell everyone...
I did not write thou Bible. I am scolding thy person that saideth I did.
God told me to write the following. I am not kidding. He really did. It came to me in a vision today. At first I was scared of the stuff I saw, but suddenly I knew who it was. It was wonderful. Here is what he told me to tell everyone...
I did not write thou Bible. I am scolding thy person that saideth I did.
You don't need anyone to tell you that the bible was not written by God.
Bible means book, from the greek word Biblios or something, it was totally written by Jesus, the commandments that is, and alot of other stuff that was revealed to Jesus by Allah.
Then the people changed it, they added what the desciples of jesus wrote themselves as part of the bible, which messed it up, then came kings manipulating it to suit their agendas which made it worse.
Now if you come to the Qur'an, Qur'an actually means, what is recited, Recitation, it is not something written, but after the prophet mohammad died, alot of battles happened here and there between the muslims and people who claimed to be prophets and their followers, they deluded weak hearted muslims into following them, and worshipping fires or some animals or whatever have you, then you have other invasions from other countries.
Now the reciters who memorize the Qur'an started dying, that is when the Qur'an was written down in a book, to save it from being lost, and amazingly the book was written without a single grammer or pelling mistake.
In the bible itself, the word Bible does not exist, however the Word Recite does.
in the Qur'an, both of the words, bible and recite exist many times.
Originally posted by reavo God told me to write the following. I am not kidding. He really did. It came to me in a vision today. At first I was scared of the stuff I saw, but suddenly I knew who it was. It was wonderful. Here is what he told me to tell everyone...
I did not write thou Bible. I am scolding thy person that saideth I did.
You don't need anyone to tell you that the bible was not written by God.
Some people are so uneducated that you do...
Bible means book, from the greek word Biblios or something, it was totally written by Jesus, the commandments that is, and alot of other stuff that was revealed to Jesus by Allah.
The bible was not written by jesus, it wasn't even written by his diciples, but people after them. The ten commandments were given to Moses by God on top of Mount Sinai (I think it was sinai atleast) thousands of years before jesus was born. That is in the old testament and the torah.
Then the people changed it, they added what the desciples of jesus wrote themselves as part of the bible, which messed it up, then came kings manipulating it to suit their agendas which made it worse.
On the first part, you have no Idea what you are talking about; on the second you are pretty much correct...
Now if you come to the Qur'an, Qur'an actually means, what is recited, Recitation, it is not something written, but after the prophet mohammad died, alot of battles happened here and there between the muslims and people who claimed to be prophets and their followers, they deluded weak hearted muslims into following them, and worshipping fires or some animals or whatever have you, then you have other invasions from other countries.
Now the reciters who memorize the Qur'an started dying, that is when the Qur'an was written down in a book, to save it from being lost, and amazingly the book was written without a single grammer or pelling mistake.
So the Quran wasn't written by Muhammod himself? So how do you know it is exactly the same as Muhammod's revelations? People are only human.
In the bible itself, the word Bible does not exist, however the Word Recite does.
So what? Bible just means holy book. The Quran and Torah are both bibles.
in the Qur'an, both of the words, bible and recite exist many times.
You don't need anyone to tell you that the bible was not written by God.
Bible means book, from the greek word Biblios or something, it was totally written by Jesus, the commandments that is, and alot of other stuff that was revealed to Jesus by Allah.
Then the people changed it, they added what the desciples of jesus wrote themselves as part of the bible, which messed it up, then came kings manipulating it to suit their agendas which made it worse.
Now if you come to the Qur'an, Qur'an actually means, what is recited, Recitation, it is not something written, but after the prophet mohammad died, alot of battles happened here and there between the muslims and people who claimed to be prophets and their followers, they deluded weak hearted muslims into following them, and worshipping fires or some animals or whatever have you, then you have other invasions from other countries.
Now the reciters who memorize the Qur'an started dying, that is when the Qur'an was written down in a book, to save it from being lost, and amazingly the book was written without a single grammer or pelling mistake.
In the bible itself, the word Bible does not exist, however the Word Recite does.
in the Qur'an, both of the words, bible and recite exist many times.
Well, ob1sr, we can just agree to believe each other's holy books are fiction. I've already spent way too much time in this thread.
Well, ob1sr, we can just agree to believe each other's holy books are fiction. I've already spent way too much time in this thread.
YOUR book might be a fiction to you, but i believe in the old lost bible myself, as every other muslim do too, and the Qur'an is NOT a fiction and i have proven that plenty of times.
Originally posted by Xexima Some people are so uneducated that you do... Yeah, and this is a big problem The bible was not written by jesus, it wasn't even written by his diciples, but people after them. The ten commandments were given to Moses by God on top of Mount Sinai (I think it was sinai atleast) thousands of years before jesus was born. That is in the old testament and the torah. and how much of it now is being ignored? On the first part, you have no Idea what you are talking about; on the second you are pretty much correct... first part i said, the desciples of Jesus wrote their own stories of things happening to them, the people hundreds of years after them included these writings as part of the bible when they were not. So the Quran wasn't written by Muhammod himself? So how do you know it is exactly the same as Muhammod's revelations? People are only human. First, the prophet was Illetirate, he can't write nor read, and he didn't write anything his entire life, second thing, if you look at the Qur'an, there are no grammer mistakes, no spelling mistakes, no missing dots or jots or what have you, and on top of that the amount of truth and scientific facts it contains, as i have mentioned alot of them before, but people are still not accepting them or even looking at them, so yes, it was written as how Allah gave it to the prophet mohammad. So what? Bible just means holy book. The Quran and Torah are both bibles. Bible means Book, only Book, Holy Bible means Holy Book, the Qur'an is not something you're supposed to read, however it was written so it won't be lost, in prayers ( Salat ) the Imam who leads the Salat recites the Qur'an, he don't have a Qur'an in his hand and read from it, no, he memorize the verses and he recites them while performing the Salat, the Qur'an is something you recite, not just read, you read it to memorize it, or learn from it. Again, so what? Again so what? it proves the truth of the Qur'an, so what?
Originally posted by lardmouth Well, ob1sr, we can just agree to believe each other's holy books are fiction. I've already spent way too much time in this thread.
YOUR book might be a fiction to you, but i believe in the old lost bible myself, as every other muslim do too, and the Qur'an is NOT a fiction and i have proven that plenty of times.
/Sigh
Have you ever heard the phrase "agree to disagree?" It's what I was trying to do. No, my book is not fiction to me. Your book is fiction to me. To you, my book is fiction. That's where we agree to disagree and realize this isn't going anywhere.
If I had the mental endurance to sit through and read the bible cover to cover for reference, I'd totally write a novel about Jesus and his apostles being a troupe of conmen swindling people out of their money. Heres the idea. If any of you have ever read or researched any earlier Mythologies, Greek Roman etc. they have very striking resemblances to most if not all of the stories written in the bible.
So a simple carpenter meets a traveler one day. This traveler has been all around the world and has seen many things in his long life. He tells this carpenter (Jesus if you haven't figured it out yet) about the stories and religions of these distant lands he's seen. Our carpenter hero decides the simple life of a carpenter is not for him. He's always wanted to be a performer, see, but the life of a performer isn't always monetarily feasible. But these stories give him an idea. He works day and night for the next several months performing many tricks and illusions, to make himself seem to be... Not of this world, so to speak. Then, he crafts the stories he's been told into those of his own, and simplifies things. He thinks to himself "I'd seem much more important if I was the son of the only god, instead of one of a large handful of them".
Yada yada you get the point from here. It'd sure piss a ton of people off... But alas, I have neither the writing experience necessary or the mental endurance required to not only read that monstrosity of a book cover to cover, then to sit and actually write a novel about it
Originally posted by ob1sr Originally posted by Xexima Some people are so uneducated that you do... Yeah, and this is a big problem The bible was not written by jesus, it wasn't even written by his diciples, but people after them. The ten commandments were given to Moses by God on top of Mount Sinai (I think it was sinai atleast) thousands of years before jesus was born. That is in the old testament and the torah. and how much of it now is being ignored? A large amount.
On the first part, you have no Idea what you are talking about; on the second you are pretty much correct... first part i said, the desciples of Jesus wrote their own stories of things happening to them, the people hundreds of years after them included these writings as part of the bible when they were not. There was no bible until the people after the diciples wrote it using word of mouth. Jesus didn't write any part of the bible that is known of. You have little knowledge of the bible and its history.
So the Quran wasn't written by Muhammod himself? So how do you know it is exactly the same as Muhammod's revelations? People are only human. First, the prophet was Illetirate, he can't write nor read, and he didn't write anything his entire life, second thing, if you look at the Qur'an, there are no grammer mistakes, no spelling mistakes, no missing dots or jots or what have you, and on top of that the amount of truth and scientific facts it contains, as i have mentioned alot of them before, but people are still not accepting them or even looking at them, so yes, it was written as how Allah gave it to the prophet mohammad. Ok, I've heard that Muhammod miraculously wrote the Quran without any help. But if your story is correct (which it probably is) then there is a simple and logical conclusion to why there was absolutely no mistakes in the entire thing. It was the job of a scribe to write everything perfectly, and when it was not, it would be burned as impure. That is what scribes did for every religious text that they wrote. The amount of scientific fact is obvious, during the 6th century the middle east was the most scientifically advanced place in the world. 1400 years ago of people had knew a lot about the human anatomy and the world they lived in... they were not cavemen. How do you know that it was written exactly as Allah wanted it? People are only human, they make mistakes. And since this was years after muhammod's death, it is obviously going to be different then his original revelations. So what? Bible just means holy book. The Quran and Torah are both bibles. Bible means Book, only Book, Holy Bible means Holy Book, the Qur'an is not something you're supposed to read, however it was written so it won't be lost, in prayers ( Salat ) the Imam who leads the Salat recites the Qur'an, he don't have a Qur'an in his hand and read from it, no, he memorize the verses and he recites them while performing the Salat, the Qur'an is something you recite, not just read, you read it to memorize it, or learn from it. Bible with a capital "B" in it refers to the sacred writings in the Christian religion. Bible with a lowercase "b" refers to the sacred text of any religion, or any book that is considered informative or reliable.
Again, so what? Again so what? it proves the truth of the Qur'an, so what? No it doesn't, that proves nothing.
Woah, non-christians not believing in christianity? Nor, the writings of the bible inspired by God? Who woulda 'thunkt' it! Of course, I disagree with you, but hey. Don't know why I can't just drag myself free of this topic.
Originally posted by lardmouth Woah, christians believing in christianity? and, the writings of the bible inspired by God? Who woulda 'thunkt' it! Of course, I disagree with you, but hey. Don't know why I can't just drag myself free of this topic.
Just a simple question, have you ever read the bible thoroughly?
Im not going to jump to conclusions about you and your knowledge about the bible, but it is odd how there are many christians that have never read the entire bible, yet all atheists seem to have read it on multiple occasions...
Just a simple question, have you ever read the bible thoroughly?
Im not going to jump to conclusions about you and your knowledge about the bible, but it is odd how there are many christians that have never read the entire bible, yet all atheists seem to have read it on multiple occasions...
Yes, I have. And, I've never had that impression with atheists. Though I'm sure some have.
It's the fact that we are able to follow what we believe without any solid proof that one person is lying and the other is not that we have free will.
In the situation you describe, it wouldn't be free will really. You would only get 1 of 2 choices, for him or against him. If you were for him, you would be rewarded, and if you were against him, you would be smited. That's not free will, that's slavery vs. death.
What we have now is TRUE free will, in that we can believe whatever we want, and we don't have to feel bad about believing it.
And reavo? That was just pathetic.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Xexima Originally posted by ob1sr Originally posted by Xexima
Ok, I've heard that Muhammod miraculously wrote the Quran without any help. But if your story is correct (which it probably is) then there is a simple and logical conclusion to why there was absolutely no mistakes in the entire thing. It was the job of a scribe to write everything perfectly, and when it was not, it would be burned as impure. That is what scribes did for every religious text that they wrote. What you hear about Islam from the enemies of Islam will always be wrong, the Qur'an was not written by one person, just another bit of information, there were people who were entrusted by the childhood friend of the prophet mohammad to do that task. The amount of scientific fact is obvious, during the 6th century the middle east was the most scientifically advanced place in the world. 1400 years ago of people had knew a lot about the human anatomy and the world they lived in... they were not cavemen. what technology? they didn't have any catapults as to speak of technology, dude, you're talking about the history of a place like you lived there, people 1400 years ago in the entire region lived in houses made of mud, enslaved people, adultery was so common, and ignorance was ruling the people, men buried then female children alive out of ignorance, can you tell me what kind of technology would these people have? YET the amount of science the prophet came with was massive, what do you know man? about cavement, there were no cavement to begin with anyway. How do you know that it was written exactly as Allah wanted it? People are only human, they make mistakes. And since this was years after muhammod's death, it is obviously going to be different then his original revelations. because it is the book of Allah, and Allah have guided the good people who wrote it to not have a mistake in it. Bible with a capital "B" in it refers to the sacred writings in the Christian religion. Bible with a lowercase "b" refers to the sacred text of any religion, or any book that is considered informative or reliable. in the arabic language, there's no capital B or small B, as in every other single language older than english, if you're reading the Bible in english then you're only reading the translation, not the real thing, if you read the Qur'an in english, you're only reading the translation that most likely if a non-muslim do it, it will definately be wrong, because he doesn't know what those verses mean.
Originally posted by lardmouth Well, ob1sr, we can just agree to believe each other's holy books are fiction. I've already spent way too much time in this thread.
YOUR book might be a fiction to you, but i believe in the old lost bible myself, as every other muslim do too, and the Qur'an is NOT a fiction and i have proven that plenty of times. Thats not true at all. I asked you to prove many events mentioned in the Qur'An, and not ONCE could you prove it to me the events in the Qur'An actually happened.
Comments
Conquest of Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Spain - All very Christian lands before their capture by Islamic armies. If it wasn't for Charles Martel stopping them at the Battle of Tours, all of Europe probably would have been converted by the sword.
Lies?
how many casualties in these wars of conquest as you describe them? on top of that most of conversions were from invitations to Islam.
go back to history where fair people write it, you'll find that your claims are not true.
Finwe, I think i'd better translate for you here. 'Fair' means 'Islam and in agreement with my personal beliefs.'
There are no lies here OneMuslim, he's spot on on all of his points - and the only way they were from 'invitations' were in the same way Hungary was 'invited' to join the Warsaw Pact.
Also, do you not think the actions of those Muslims in Britain, constantly threatening white British people and making claims that Britain will only be 'safe' when it is under Islamic law, or those suicide bombers in Bali and London (and other countries of course) are spreading by the sword? Though I HATE to mention them, the 9/11 attacks (if in fact carried out by Al Queda) were done in attempt to make the West see the error of their ways and join fundamentalist Islam... Whether your opinion of what makes a muslim 'good' does not extend to these folk aparently (what about the Palestinians btw? Or the Lebanese? 'Driving the jews into the sea'...) that does not excuse that they ARE muslims, by claim and by observation. Maybe ALL muslims don't spread their word by the sword, but a large group do/have.
hmmm, another, blame Islam and not muslims post.
Conquest of Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Spain - All very Christian lands before their capture by Islamic armies. If it wasn't for Charles Martel stopping them at the Battle of Tours, all of Europe probably would have been converted by the sword.
Lies?
how many casualties in these wars of conquest as you describe them? on top of that most of conversions were from invitations to Islam.
go back to history where fair people write it, you'll find that your claims are not true.
Finwe, I think i'd better translate for you here. 'Fair' means 'Islam and in agreement with my personal beliefs.'
There are no lies here OneMuslim, he's spot on on all of his points - and the only way they were from 'invitations' were in the same way Hungary was 'invited' to join the Warsaw Pact.
Also, do you not think the actions of those Muslims in Britain, constantly threatening white British people and making claims that Britain will only be 'safe' when it is under Islamic law, or those suicide bombers in Bali and London (and other countries of course) are spreading by the sword? Though I HATE to mention them, the 9/11 attacks (if in fact carried out by Al Queda) were done in attempt to make the West see the error of their ways and join fundamentalist Islam... Whether your opinion of what makes a muslim 'good' does not extend to these folk aparently (what about the Palestinians btw? Or the Lebanese? 'Driving the jews into the sea'...) that does not excuse that they ARE muslims, by claim and by observation. Maybe ALL muslims don't spread their word by the sword, but a large group do/have.
I personally feel that the islam are a few hundred years behind christianity. what extreme muslim groups are doing now, is what the Crusaders did hundreds of years ago.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Did noone else 'lol' at this statement?...
And the post was NOT a 'blame Islam not muslims' post. Your presumption to that effect shows a total lack of common sense. You had proposed that Islam was not a religion that had converted followers 'using the sword'. I gave you some examples of times it was. Just because you were not one of the muslims involved, and your personal ideology may differ from theres does NOT change the FACT that muslims HAVE 'used the sword' (for lack of a better phrase).
Catholics accept collective blame for the Crusades... Why is it so hard for muslims to do the same? Why are muslims constantly so defensive? As a 'christian' society in the west, we're constantly subject to Ayatolas (sp?) preaching that our way of life is sinful and we should be 'washed from the earth' or 'cleansed'... I've not once risen to that, nor have any but the most racist of my countrymen. Yet a single quote OUT OF CONTEXT IN FACT can make the entire Islamic east scream blue murder and declare a new holy war... Does that not seem f*cked up to you?
Actually I think some of you are missing one of the major points of religion in general.
Free Will.
You ask why God didn't choose a better medium than having a man write a book for him. Well that's kinda the point.
If God came down and sat in a chair every sunday told us the rules and outlined the checklist of things that let us get into heaven, then it would be a no brainer. You would know God existed, you would know whether you were going to heaven, you would know what the rules were, you would know everything you needed to know, and you wouldn't have to learn or experience things for yourself.
You wouldn't need faith, hope, forgiveness, charity, anything like that because you'd know what was coming and what people's fates would be.
God doesn't want you to take a checklist that you can prove He wrote and do x, y, and z so you'll get into heaven. That's not a life anymore, that's following orders.
One of the major points of life is to find all these things out for yourself, make your own decisions, take the consequences.
One of the things that had always kinda bugged me about religion was "If God is so omnipotent, why does he need us to worship him?". Well I figured it out. He doesn't really need us to worship him. He would like us to but he won't force us to.
Forcing us to worship him is a very different thing than giving us a suggestion, which is possible to doubt, and us choosing to worship anyways of our own free will.
And for the record, yes the days of the week reflect pagan origins.
Sun Day, Moon Day, Tyr's Day, Woden's Day, Thor's Day, Freya's Day, Saturn's Day (Saturn was viewed as the correlary of Loki)
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I did not write thou Bible. I am scolding thy person that saideth I did.
You don't need anyone to tell you that the bible was not written by God.
Bible means book, from the greek word Biblios or something, it was totally written by Jesus, the commandments that is, and alot of other stuff that was revealed to Jesus by Allah.
Then the people changed it, they added what the desciples of jesus wrote themselves as part of the bible, which messed it up, then came kings manipulating it to suit their agendas which made it worse.
Now if you come to the Qur'an, Qur'an actually means, what is recited, Recitation, it is not something written, but after the prophet mohammad died, alot of battles happened here and there between the muslims and people who claimed to be prophets and their followers, they deluded weak hearted muslims into following them, and worshipping fires or some animals or whatever have you, then you have other invasions from other countries.
Now the reciters who memorize the Qur'an started dying, that is when the Qur'an was written down in a book, to save it from being lost, and amazingly the book was written without a single grammer or pelling mistake.
In the bible itself, the word Bible does not exist, however the Word Recite does.
in the Qur'an, both of the words, bible and recite exist many times.
You don't need anyone to tell you that the bible was not written by God.
Some people are so uneducated that you do...
Bible means book, from the greek word Biblios or something, it was totally written by Jesus, the commandments that is, and alot of other stuff that was revealed to Jesus by Allah.
The bible was not written by jesus, it wasn't even written by his diciples, but people after them. The ten commandments were given to Moses by God on top of Mount Sinai (I think it was sinai atleast) thousands of years before jesus was born. That is in the old testament and the torah.
Then the people changed it, they added what the desciples of jesus wrote themselves as part of the bible, which messed it up, then came kings manipulating it to suit their agendas which made it worse.
On the first part, you have no Idea what you are talking about; on the second you are pretty much correct...
Now if you come to the Qur'an, Qur'an actually means, what is recited, Recitation, it is not something written, but after the prophet mohammad died, alot of battles happened here and there between the muslims and people who claimed to be prophets and their followers, they deluded weak hearted muslims into following them, and worshipping fires or some animals or whatever have you, then you have other invasions from other countries.
Now the reciters who memorize the Qur'an started dying, that is when the Qur'an was written down in a book, to save it from being lost, and amazingly the book was written without a single grammer or pelling mistake.
So the Quran wasn't written by Muhammod himself? So how do you know it is exactly the same as Muhammod's revelations? People are only human.
In the bible itself, the word Bible does not exist, however the Word Recite does.
So what? Bible just means holy book. The Quran and Torah are both bibles.
in the Qur'an, both of the words, bible and recite exist many times.
Again, so what?
Hmm, not sure there are any christian sects that believe God himself took up a pen and wrote the bible.
Bible means book, from the greek word Biblios or something, it was totally written by Jesus, the commandments that is, and alot of other stuff that was revealed to Jesus by Allah.
Then the people changed it, they added what the desciples of jesus wrote themselves as part of the bible, which messed it up, then came kings manipulating it to suit their agendas which made it worse.
Now if you come to the Qur'an, Qur'an actually means, what is recited, Recitation, it is not something written, but after the prophet mohammad died, alot of battles happened here and there between the muslims and people who claimed to be prophets and their followers, they deluded weak hearted muslims into following them, and worshipping fires or some animals or whatever have you, then you have other invasions from other countries.
Now the reciters who memorize the Qur'an started dying, that is when the Qur'an was written down in a book, to save it from being lost, and amazingly the book was written without a single grammer or pelling mistake.
In the bible itself, the word Bible does not exist, however the Word Recite does.
in the Qur'an, both of the words, bible and recite exist many times.
Well, ob1sr, we can just agree to believe each other's holy books are fiction. I've already spent way too much time in this thread.
/Sigh
Have you ever heard the phrase "agree to disagree?" It's what I was trying to do. No, my book is not fiction to me. Your book is fiction to me. To you, my book is fiction. That's where we agree to disagree and realize this isn't going anywhere.
So a simple carpenter meets a traveler one day. This traveler has been all around the world and has seen many things in his long life. He tells this carpenter (Jesus if you haven't figured it out yet) about the stories and religions of these distant lands he's seen. Our carpenter hero decides the simple life of a carpenter is not for him. He's always wanted to be a performer, see, but the life of a performer isn't always monetarily feasible. But these stories give him an idea. He works day and night for the next several months performing many tricks and illusions, to make himself seem to be... Not of this world, so to speak. Then, he crafts the stories he's been told into those of his own, and simplifies things. He thinks to himself "I'd seem much more important if I was the son of the only god, instead of one of a large handful of them".
Yada yada you get the point from here. It'd sure piss a ton of people off... But alas, I have neither the writing experience necessary or the mental endurance required to not only read that monstrosity of a book cover to cover, then to sit and actually write a novel about it
Im not going to jump to conclusions about you and your knowledge about the bible, but it is odd how there are many christians that have never read the entire bible, yet all atheists seem to have read it on multiple occasions...
Im not going to jump to conclusions about you and your knowledge about the bible, but it is odd how there are many christians that have never read the entire bible, yet all atheists seem to have read it on multiple occasions...
Yes, I have. And, I've never had that impression with atheists. Though I'm sure some have.
Actually no Khuzarrz, you prove my point.
It's the fact that we are able to follow what we believe without any solid proof that one person is lying and the other is not that we have free will.
In the situation you describe, it wouldn't be free will really. You would only get 1 of 2 choices, for him or against him. If you were for him, you would be rewarded, and if you were against him, you would be smited. That's not free will, that's slavery vs. death.
What we have now is TRUE free will, in that we can believe whatever we want, and we don't have to feel bad about believing it.
And reavo? That was just pathetic.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Thats not true at all. I asked you to prove many events mentioned in the Qur'An, and not ONCE could you prove it to me the events in the Qur'An actually happened.