I don't have time to go through all these posts, got to page 8 and now I have work to finish here. I'd just like to drop 3 points.
To the guy who's friend lost his WoW characters items and gold to a keylogger. I understand the idea that since casinos raise crime in real life, gold farmers must raise crime in our virtual lives (even though it was real people commiting a crime, whatever). I still think that your connection between keyloggers and gold farmers is specious at best.
Stop allowing gold farmers to advert? The kid who was shooting off about morality and blah blah blah, most of that type will leave as soon as MMORPG asks for a modest sum of money to keep the site running. As soon as you're ready to help the cause, you can't start admonishing others for not being part of the answer. So long as you're a leech enjoying the community and information that MMORPG.com offers, just keep your zealotry to yourself.
Finally, I don't see anything wrong with gold farmers. I think the equation (and this is just my opinion) runs something like this. Hardcore and casual start playing game A at launch, everything's fine, economy's fine. Hardcore set get better and better, so they begin to level quicker and gather better loot. Hardcore set makes alts with lower level items they found. More casuals come in at that level. Now the economy is skewed. This is what urges a lot of casual players to purchase gold, so they can afford lower level "epic" (legendary, rare, whatever) items that higher level characters have the money to purchase already for their alts. It's unavoidable, so we'll cope.
Originally posted by Tamalan Actually there were many occasions where I wasnt allowed to re-roll, and i had to sit out an adventure. This was based on an obviously out-dated ideal called 'playing by the rules'.
If the DM allowed re-rolls, I rejoined the game. If he didnt, I helped run the game by playing 'NPC' characters and encounter characters.
But the decision wasnt swayed by the contents of my wallet.
The question here is not one of playing by the rules. This is a computer game. The rules are hard coded into it. Short of running a third party software you are unable to play outside of the rules.
The question is, who's rules? Your rules, the publisher's rules or the rules made by the democratically elected representatives of the people? It would be nice for everyone to play by everybodies rules, but in the case of any dispute it is the law of the land that holds precedent.
You don't get to make the "rules" any more than I or publishing companies do. If you or anybody else chose to add extra rules to your own game, that's up to you. Other people however should not be, and are not obliged to humor you in anyway. They may play their own game by their own rules.
Each person must make their own decisions for their own reasons. A persons financial status is of no intrest to me. In the case of MMO's the contents of peoples wallets should not be left out of the equation. There is a monthly fee. You pay it, I pay it, gold sellers and gold buyers pay it. I'm happy for you that personal wealth is not something you need to deliberate on, but I'm not willing to think less of those for whom it does.
Originally posted by hedgewan As if a EULA infraction isnt enough. As for the other parts, ok, there are probably 1000s of impacts, I dont want carpel tunnel so I will just list a few.
1. You contribute nothing to the community or the game when you pay someone else to play it for you. 2. You miss time playing your character and learning your abilities and how to play your character. 3. You arent there for others who may need to group with others in order to 'farm'. 4. You arent learning anything about how to make gold for yourself, and cannot communicate this to others. 5. You arent there for someone who may benefit from your abilities, like if you can 'rez' or repair or heal. 6. You contribute to the de-population of vast PvE zones. Others are forced to go it alone or with less people. 7. You make it easier for people to charge incredibly high amounts for things. 8. You make things look alot easier than they really are. Raising the standard of expectation to rediculous levels. 9. You create a new occupation online, a gold salesperson, which puts people in an MMORPG who really have no buisness being there. These people often cause problems and certainly do not contribute anything worthwhile. 10. It starts huge 200+ post argument threads like this one.
If you want more impacts look for threads with the same topic, or maybe within this thread.
1) And Power/Uber guilds that block off whole area's or monopolize whole dungeons do? So basically the single parent, or college student without much free time. Should just give up all together, and quit gaming? Because they'd rather spend a little extra income to advance, to make up for lack of time.
2) Character learning is all about Trial and Error. Someone that uses a pre-leveled character. Isn't any less capable of learning the character. Then someone who started at lvl 1.
3) I really do not understand the point you are trying to make on this one.
4) Exactly what does me communicating efficent farming spots with other people really have to do with impacting my chosen server and/or world? Why is their lack of farming knowledge my fault? Shouldn't this player be finding out on his own? So I do not know the answer to his question about good farming spot, and my character is bought. Exactly how does that make me any worse off then that person that asked?
5) I do not understand quite what you are saying here either. I bought a lvl 75 Fury and find myself running across your dead body while in the commonlands. Are you suggesting that I wouldn't take the time to rez you? Or are you saying that because someone else was playing my character to max out their level in quick manner. When you screwed up a pull and died. My character who might have had a chance meeting with you, and saved your life wasn't there? Because company x has person b off in a quiet spot leveling my character solo?
6) I would like some proof to back this up. Do you happen to have some hard numbers on how many people use leveling services? Versus those that just prefer to solo, and want nothing to do with grouping?
7) Actually the ability to twink alts and/or guild mate, friends characters. Destabilizes an economy far more then gold buying/selling, imho. Just look at EQ2, they do have a problem with buying/selling of plat. It's not a very big problem. It is not the reason the economy there is out of whack either. It's the high levels with far more resources/incoming. Driving the price of low level/tier items up. Because they all want to twink out their characters in the best possible gear.
8) Not really going to touch this one. Just a subjective opinion.
9) So it's ok if a company like SOE does it, but when a 3rd party company does it. It's a to quote you "person that doesn't belong there" event?
10) I'd rather have a 200+ post thread that is clean, and not flame bait. Then let people like Jorev (Nothing personal Jorev) tell others how He/She thinks they should game.
Fact: I have a friend that currently plays EQ2 with me. She is single 32, and has two kids (10 and 8). Fact: While I am somewhat indifferent to gold selling/leveling services. I do sometimes tend towards disliking it. Fact: I know she has made use of a leveling service on one of the banners from this site (twice to my knowledge) To get her Fury from 32 to 42, and Illusionist from 30 to 35 I think it was. Fact: She did such a thing to be able to stay competitive with me, and two other members from our guild that use to play together regular until her play time, decreased. (School started back up) Fact: It was her choice to make and I for one do not fault her for it. That is just how she choice to handle the situation. Fact: It's not my place, or anyone elses outside of SOE. To tell her how she or for that matter anyone else should use their money and/or time to maximize their entertainment from the game. It's between her, SOE, and the man upstairs.
Yet the opinion I get from most of the people here is that. People like her and many others. Have no right to be in their game. Because they lack the ability to put forth endless hours of time. Needed to endlessly grind characters, skills, quest, etc etc in a MMORPG. Oh but people like that should they still be forced to kick out that 15 bucks a month on the regular, right?
What exactly makes you more worthy of playing the game then them? Just because you have more time? Exactly how is that fair?
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by Puoltry A # of things happen by having ads on this site:
1.It remains free.
2.For me it means the staff can offer unbiased reviews of any mmo released or upcoming.Lets face it currency sellers could care less about a positive or negative review.Currency sellers KNOW that someone will always be there to buy their product.
3.If mmorpg.com were to stop the gold sellers ads the 1st review of a game that wasnt up to par with players that got a positive review what would happen?
The players who frequent this site would scream "sellout".
Get used to it folks you cant stop the law of supply and demand only the devs can do this.Look at the korean games that have item stores.Has anyone ever seen any 3rd party gold sellers advertising for these games?
I have said it before and ill say it again:In the next 1 to 5 years we will be buying ingame currency and items.It is more profitable and a better business model.
Need an example?Project Entropia
1. The admin has already stated the site will remain free regardless of gold selling ads, please pay attention.
2. and 3. These points would only be true if MMORPG.com refused ads from all game developers which is currently not the case. Since you are not clamoring for this, this argument seems to be a red herring.
Project Entropia has fewer subscribers than most MMOGs that prohibit advantage selling and gold selling. Feel free to post Project Entropia's earnings last year to prove they are more profitable and thus a better business model.
Think whatever you want about PE but it has been the most succesful subscription free mmo to date.
A fact is a fact,we have seen this argument sooooo many times and it has not changed nor will it ever change.Gold farming/buying is here to stay.It is profitable and has a market demand.As long as it is ALLOWED to be profitacle it will be a fact of most subscription based mmo's.
Instead me showing you how profitable PE is why dont YOU show me where PE currency is sold by a 2nd party or even a 3rd party provider?
TBH Blizzard may be the leader in enforcement but even they cant completly stop it.The only way to stop it is to take away the market.It is already common knowledge that players are spending massive amounts of money on in game currency and items not to mention maxed out characters.
Ive always beleived that developers are in bed with the gold farmers anyway.Why would they not be?Think about it they get a "cut" of profits and they get a monthly sub anyway.If they change to item stores most players would just quit.
Here is an old article detailing some profits that players have made:PROFITS.
If developers were serious about this subject in the EULA they would lose a good portion of the player base.I think its more common than most people know or even want to accpet.
BTW here is alink of a PLAYER in PE who is doing quite well for himself for NOT paying a monthly fee:PROFITS.
According to the article itself PE has over 300,000 registered users.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
That is the most rediculous backwards outlook I have ever heard. That is like saying you rent an apartment and ignore the lease because you don't agree with it. Tear the place up and do whatever you want regardless of who else lives there because you have you rights and be damned if anyone is going to infringe on what you want.
Every MMO has a EULA, it's no mystery. You may not be able to read it before you open the box but you know it's in there. Often you can research the product before you buy it and find your answers, or even contact the publisher for a copy if you are that concerned with it. Have you ever contacted a publisher to voice your opposition to some of the clauses? Somehow I doubt it.
Keep fooling yourself, you seem quite content with the little world you have created for yourself.
When I rent an apartment, I am the legal tenant. The landlord is not free to tell me how I may behave in my home. Neither is he free to enter without my permission. These are my rights. If the landlord writes an illegal clause into a lease and I sign it, I am still free to do what I wish within the law. Landlords hold deposits and tenants are legally obliged to pay for any damages that go beyond wear and tear.
More relavently, once signed, the Landlord is unable to add an extra multipage lease to the front door that I must sign and agree to each time I open the front door. (Until my lease expires, that front door belongs to me not him).
The reason we have rights is so that other people are not free to infringe upon us. You have the right to buy gold. You have the right to sell it. I'm not the one trying to infringe on people.
I am under no obligation to contact the publisher before I buy something for hidden clauses, or even research their product. The retailer is under full obligation to present them to me before I purchase. Not do so is called Fraud. Specifically, False Advertising. In the EU, this is a criminal offence, in the U.S. a civil one. These are the rules by which our societies operate and our businesses prosper.
Once again if a publisher is unwilling to sell their products within the constraints of the law they are entirely free not to sell.
Originally posted by hedgewan 1. You contribute nothing to the community or the game when you pay someone else to play it for you.
Why? If you're playing the game, regardless of whether you payed someone for some gold or leveling or if you did it all yourself, you're still playing the game. Contribution to community can be measured in many, many ways.
Originally posted by hedgewan 2. You miss time playing your character and learning your abilities and how to play your character.
If you bought a character at its max level, and no further progression was possible...this would be true. If you're just buying gold, this isn't true. Even if it is true, not everyone plays these games for the chracter progression.
Originally posted by hedgewan 3. You arent there for others who may need to group with others in order to 'farm'.
I've grouped with more than a few eBayed characters. Your assertion is flatly false.
Originally posted by hedgewan 4. You arent learning anything about how to make gold for yourself, and cannot communicate this to others.
Buying gold or a character does not preclude the ability to communicate...and many eBayed chracters I've met communicate just fine. As for learning how to make gold...this is not a difficult affair. See mob...kill mob...loot mob. Done deal. Again, a false assertion.
Originally posted by hedgewan 5. You arent there for someone who may benefit from your abilities, like if you can 'rez' or repair or heal.
How so? If they're playing their character they are clearly there. If the character can rez or repair or heal, they're likely going to be doing that. Your statement makes no sense.
Originally posted by hedgewan 6. You contribute to the de-population of vast PvE zones. Others are forced to go it alone or with less people.
These games respawn. If the mobs were a fixed commodity and limited numbers, your statement would have merit. They are not. They are constantly respawning. Another false assertion.
Originally posted by hedgewan 7. You make it easier for people to charge incredibly high amounts for things.
Please provide some evidence of this assertion. All the markets I've seen in-game are filled with players buying items that they've obtained the currency to buy through normal in-game means. The prices are almost always reflective of the normal supply and demand pressures. I've yet to see an instance where absurd amounts of currency flooded a system and pushed prices up.
In fact, in most cases the reason for a rise in prices stems from mudlfation...the phenomenon of content becoming easier due to inflated levels...where currency can be obtained from once-difficult sources much easier and is farmed by normal players to purchase items.
So if you feel this assertion is true...provide an in-game example...name the game, the server, and the items...so we can all take a look at it directly and talk to the people involved and actually find out whether this is really happening or not. I doubt you can do this.
Originally posted by hedgewan 8. You make things look alot easier than they really are. Raising the standard of expectation to rediculous levels.
If someone wants to play that way...that's their choice. I know that I certainly don't feel the game is too easy simply because someone else bought some gold. I take the game on its merits for how I experience it. Your argument just doesn't even make sense to me.
Originally posted by hedgewan 9. You create a new occupation online, a gold salesperson, which puts people in an MMORPG who really have no buisness being there. These people often cause problems and certainly do not contribute anything worthwhile.
Welcome to life. There just so happens to be people all around you doing things that you probably feel they shouldn't be doing.
I've met more players in games who caused problems for me and many others by doing normal in-game things...like hoarding a camp to farm items to sell in the in-game market (not for RL money), being jackasses in public channels, killstealing, griefing, corpse-camping, etc... None of them were involved in the trade of virtual item reselling.
So what do you propose to do about all of them? Since they happen to not be involved in virtual item reselling, do they meet with your approval where the virtual item resellers do not?
Originally posted by hedgewan 10. It starts huge 200+ post argument threads like this one.If you want more impacts look for threads with the same topic, or maybe within this thread.
Your last comment is clearly just tongue in cheek.
Originally posted by baff When I rent an apartment, I am the legal tenant. The landlord is not free to tell me how I may behave in my home. Neither is he free to enter without my permission. These are my rights.
That's not exactly true. For example, Landlords can prevent you from owning pets or limit the number of occupants. Even Communities have covenants that you agree to prior to purchasing the land that have restrictions on what you can do with/on your property.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by baff When I rent an apartment, I am the legal tenant. The landlord is not free to tell me how I may behave in my home. Neither is he free to enter without my permission. These are my rights. If the landlord writes an illegal clause into a lease and I sign it, I am still free to do what I wish within the law. Landlords hold deposits and tenants are legally obliged to pay for any damages that go beyond wear and tear. More relavently, once signed, the Landlord is unable to add an extra multipage lease to the front door that I must sign and agree to each time I open the front door. (Until my lease expires, that front door belongs to me not him). The reason we have rights is so that other people are not free to infringe upon us. You have the right to buy gold. You have the right to sell it. I'm not the one trying to infringe on peoples rights. I am under no obligation to contact the publisher before I buy something for hidden clauses, or even research their product. The retailer is under full obligation to present them to me before I purchase. Not do so is called Fraud. Specifically, False Advertising. In the EU, this is a criminal offence, in the U.S. a civil one. These are the rules by which our societies operate and our businesses prosper. Once again if a publisher is unwilling to sell their products within the constraints of the law they are entirely free not to sell.
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by baff When I rent an apartment, I am the legal tenant. The landlord is not free to tell me how I may behave in my home. Neither is he free to enter without my permission. These are my rights. If the landlord writes an illegal clause into a lease and I sign it, I am still free to do what I wish within the law. Landlords hold deposits and tenants are legally obliged to pay for any damages that go beyond wear and tear. More relavently, once signed, the Landlord is unable to add an extra multipage lease to the front door that I must sign and agree to each time I open the front door. (Until my lease expires, that front door belongs to me not him). The reason we have rights is so that other people are not free to infringe upon us. You have the right to buy gold. You have the right to sell it. I'm not the one trying to infringe on peoples rights. I am under no obligation to contact the publisher before I buy something for hidden clauses, or even research their product. The retailer is under full obligation to present them to me before I purchase. Not do so is called Fraud. Specifically, False Advertising. In the EU, this is a criminal offence, in the U.S. a civil one. These are the rules by which our societies operate and our businesses prosper. Once again if a publisher is unwilling to sell their products within the constraints of the law they are entirely free not to sell.
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
True. You can't just agree to do something, think it sucks, and change your behaviour. You've agreed to the game UPKEEPER's and DEVELOPER's terms. These people made the game (by known MMO template) for your enjoyment (or timesink), even if you happen to think they're just greedy criminals. Opinion doesn't matter when you've agreed to play by their rules.
Add to this what you may or may not take away from the people that do abide by the rules, and you've got yourself plenty of reason to either quit the games you're playing or stop the activities that are against the rules of the game. Again some ianubisi or pantastic guy will come repeat the "what am I taking away?" question to derail the conversation. It is arguable since I can't give police evidence and code from the time MMOs first started to prove what RMT does to online economies. On that note everything else that's said apart from the fact that everyone agrees to the EULAs associated with games is irrelevant so no use for you lot to argue how gold farming benefits anyone either. An EULA's an EULA and you've agreed to use THEIR PRODUCT ON THEIR TERMS. Until the games developers are legally obligated to change their EULAs, you gold farming defenders are wrong no matter how you put it.
Originally posted by baff When I rent an apartment, I am the legal tenant. The landlord is not free to tell me how I may behave in my home. Neither is he free to enter without my permission. These are my rights. If the landlord writes an illegal clause into a lease and I sign it, I am still free to do what I wish within the law. Landlords hold deposits and tenants are legally obliged to pay for any damages that go beyond wear and tear. More relavently, once signed, the Landlord is unable to add an extra multipage lease to the front door that I must sign and agree to each time I open the front door. (Until my lease expires, that front door belongs to me not him). The reason we have rights is so that other people are not free to infringe upon us. You have the right to buy gold. You have the right to sell it. I'm not the one trying to infringe on peoples rights. I am under no obligation to contact the publisher before I buy something for hidden clauses, or even research their product. The retailer is under full obligation to present them to me before I purchase. Not do so is called Fraud. Specifically, False Advertising. In the EU, this is a criminal offence, in the U.S. a civil one. These are the rules by which our societies operate and our businesses prosper. Once again if a publisher is unwilling to sell their products within the constraints of the law they are entirely free not to sell.
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
Part of the problem is I think the EULA itself. The fact that if you are standing in a store debating on "Buy" or "Don't Buy". You can't take a look at the EULA till you've actually installed the game in most cases. Some companies go as far as posting the EULA maybe in the manual, or on their website. That really doesn't help the young man or woman standing in the store. With baffs analogy about Landlords and Apartments. They are at the very least required to disclose all such information before you even allowed to sign the lease (at least that is how it is here in Baltimore). With a software purchase like a MMORPG you really aren't given such luxaries.
Didn't we have a case not to long ago in court about a MMORPG and the EULA? (memory is fuzzy)
Edit: Also though alot of companies will take back opened software. There are even more that still to this day won't. Especially anything involving a registration key like a MMORPG.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
But I don't think they are doing anything wrong. It's you that thinks that. I think it's all good.
Hitting accept legitamises nothing. You asked me for the case history and I provided it. Now it's your turn. Show me the law. Show me the case history.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored. It's not an agreement. There is no reason to agree to it. When you click I agree, you may have read the EULA and agreed with it, but there is no reason why anyone else should. That's your personal choice and nothing more.
If you don't like it how about you don't use it. Or if you find yourself on a server with a whole load of people who like me haven't bothered to read the EULA, why not ask the company to start a specific, "I read and agreed with the EULA" only server.
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games whereyou might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you. Or when you find a gold seller, how about you cancel your subscription. Then market forces will close down all those games and you will be happy. You will have done your part to end gold selling and people demeaning your agreement with the EULA. I want games companies to keep making games. I don't mind if they want to write EULAs, I don't read them. Sure it's one extra click to launch the game I don't need, but I'll live with it thanks. It's by no means enough to ruin my enjoyment of the game and if it ever does, at that time, I will return the game to my place of purchase for my full refund.
I see no reason why I or anyone else should find a new game just because you agree with EULAs. I don't play games with you. Why don't you ask everyone you play with if they have read the EULA, and if they agree with it, and if they say no, put them on ignore. I'll tell you why not, because you wouldn't have any friends left at the end of it. I suggest if this is something you find that really demeans your own sense of agreement or enjoyment, not that you find a new game, or only play single player games, but that you re-adjust. Have a word with yourself.
As for detracting from what other people agreed to, firstly I don't really believe a lot of people read it at all, I think if you actually did you are one of the very few, and more importantly when you do agree to it, (even if it's only in your own head), let alone attempt to reinforce it's legitamcy to others; you are attempting to detract from the consumer rights of all gamers everywhere. Not just in the one game. You are accepting as legal a device solely concieved of to cheat and defraud the games buying public of their legally bought software and rented services. You are encouraging people to give up their rights of ownership. Very poor.
Originally posted by Babbuun Roin. Doesn't matter. You get the info before getting the game. This in no way justfies breaking the rules.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
It's not about breaking the rules though. It's about a recourse. Company X doesn't give you the EULA till you done installing the game and about to register an account. You read the EULA and think "Hmm well I don't agree with that". You uninstall the game, and attempt to take it back to store. Store says "Sorry buddy can't help you there, it is an open box product."
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by Roin Originally posted by Babbuun Roin. Doesn't matter. You get the info before getting the game. This in no way justfies breaking the rules.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
It's not about breaking the rules though. It's about a recourse. Company X doesn't give you the EULA till you done installing the game and about to register an account. You read the EULA and think "Hmm well I don't agree with that". You uninstall the game, and attempt to take it back to store. Store says "Sorry buddy can't help you there, it is an open box product."
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
You can sell it to a friend that doesn't think RMT is an essential part of MMOs.
Also age recommendations are another subject altogether. They have less to do with the game and more to do with the individual.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Babbuun Roin. Doesn't matter. You get the info before getting the game. This in no way justfies breaking the rules.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
No. You don't, you get it after you bought the game during installation. It's already back home and in your computer at this stage.
Once they have your money then they tell you the rules. Consequently, you are free to ignore them.
If you were given the rules before you bought the game as you suggest, then you would have a valid point.
You can get the rules beforehand if you bother to research them. Also assuming that an MMO would allow RMT is pretty silly...
Originally posted by Babbuun Originally posted by Roin Originally posted by Babbuun Roin. Doesn't matter. You get the info before getting the game. This in no way justfies breaking the rules.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
It's not about breaking the rules though. It's about a recourse. Company X doesn't give you the EULA till you done installing the game and about to register an account. You read the EULA and think "Hmm well I don't agree with that". You uninstall the game, and attempt to take it back to store. Store says "Sorry buddy can't help you there, it is an open box product."
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
You can sell it to a friend that doesn't think RMT is an essential part of MMOs.
Yes, but according to most MMO EULA's you aren't allowed to Sell, Trade, or even Share your account with anyone. You next comment will be "Well ok you didn't use the key yet". Fine, then why can't the company publishing it or even the developer buy it from me? They took the time to hide the EULA till a point where the product is already purchased, and non-refundable at the store where the title is bought. If they hid the EULA why is my job to then find someone to take the product off my hands? If they aren't willing to do it. What is wrong with me Ebaying the box or account? Is the account not mine? Do I not funnel money into their pockets at a set point each month to keep "my" account? Does someone else pay for my account that, i'm not aware of?
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by Roin Originally posted by Babbuun Originally posted by Roin Originally posted by Babbuun Roin. Doesn't matter. You get the info before getting the game. This in no way justfies breaking the rules.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
It's not about breaking the rules though. It's about a recourse. Company X doesn't give you the EULA till you done installing the game and about to register an account. You read the EULA and think "Hmm well I don't agree with that". You uninstall the game, and attempt to take it back to store. Store says "Sorry buddy can't help you there, it is an open box product."
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
You can sell it to a friend that doesn't think RMT is an essential part of MMOs.
Yes, but according to most MMO EULA's you aren't allowed to Sell, Trade, or even Share your account with anyone. You next comment will be "Well ok you didn't use the key yet". Fine, then why can't the company publishing it or even the developer buy it from me? They took the time to hide the EULA till a point where the product is already purchased, and non-refundable at the store where the title is bought. If they hid the EULA why is my job to then find someone to take the product off my hands? If they aren't willing to do it. What is wrong with me Ebaying the box or account? Is the account not mine? Do I not funnel money into their pockets at a set point each month to keep "my" account? Does someone else pay for my account that, i'm not aware of?
Then I'll just have to tell you assuming MMOs would allow RMT is silly and ignorant.
Originally posted by baff But I don't think they are doing anything wrong. It's you that thinks that. I think it's all good. Hitting accept legitamises nothing. You asked me for the case history and I provided it. Now it's your turn. Show me the law. Show me the case history. The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored. It's not an agreement. There is no reason to agree to it. When you click I agree, you may have read the EULA and agreed with it, but there is no reason why anyone else should. That's your personal choice and nothing more.
Breaking the EULA was part of the summary judgement in Bnetd v. Blizzard (I believe the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals).
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by Babbuun Originally posted by Roin Originally posted by Babbuun Originally posted by Roin Originally posted by Babbuun Roin. Doesn't matter. You get the info before getting the game. This in no way justfies breaking the rules.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
It's not about breaking the rules though. It's about a recourse. Company X doesn't give you the EULA till you done installing the game and about to register an account. You read the EULA and think "Hmm well I don't agree with that". You uninstall the game, and attempt to take it back to store. Store says "Sorry buddy can't help you there, it is an open box product."
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
You can sell it to a friend that doesn't think RMT is an essential part of MMOs.
Yes, but according to most MMO EULA's you aren't allowed to Sell, Trade, or even Share your account with anyone. You next comment will be "Well ok you didn't use the key yet". Fine, then why can't the company publishing it or even the developer buy it from me? They took the time to hide the EULA till a point where the product is already purchased, and non-refundable at the store where the title is bought. If they hid the EULA why is my job to then find someone to take the product off my hands? If they aren't willing to do it. What is wrong with me Ebaying the box or account? Is the account not mine? Do I not funnel money into their pockets at a set point each month to keep "my" account? Does someone else pay for my account that, i'm not aware of?
Then I'll just have to tell you assuming MMOs would allow RMT is silly and ignorant.
I'm not saying they are. All I am saying is this. You can't expect something from people if you aren't willing to give something in return. Most publishers could care less about their subscriber base when numbers are good, and boxes are selling. If you expect me, and others to be good consumers. Then all I ask is that said company shows me, and other kind of consumers the same kind of respect they ask for.
You want me to agree to the EULA. That's fine, just be upfront with what it says. I don't need/want your technical jargin. I don't need/want your small print. I don't need/want to find your EULA burried in the screens post-installation. If companies can't even be upfront about their own EULA. Why am I expected to be upfront and follow those rules?
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Fadeus
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
But I don't think they are doing anything wrong. It's you that thinks that. I think it's all good.
Hitting accept legitamises nothing. You asked me for the case history and I provided it. Now it's your turn. Show me the law. Show me the case history.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored. It's not an agreement. There is no reason to agree to it. When you click I agree, you may have read the EULA and agreed with it, but there is no reason why anyone else should. That's your personal choice and nothing more.
If you don't like it how about you don't use it. Or if you find yourself on a server with a whole load of people who like me haven't bothered to read the EULA, why not ask the company to start a specific, "I read and agreed with the EULA" only server.
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games whereyou might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you. Or when you find a gold seller, how about you cancel your subscription. Then market forces will close down all those games and you will be happy. You will have done your part to end gold selling and people demeaning your agreement with the EULA. I want games companies to keep making games. I don't mind if they want to write EULAs, I don't read them. Sure it's one extra click to launch the game I don't need, but I'll live with it thanks. It's by no means enough to ruin my enjoyment of the game and if it ever does, at that time, I will return the game to my place of purchase for my full refund.
I see no reason why I or anyone else should find a new game just because you agree with EULAs. I don't play games with you. Why don't you ask everyone you play with if they have read the EULA, and if they agree with it, and if they say no, put them on ignore. I'll tell you why not, because you wouldn't have any friends left at the end of it. I suggest if this is something you find that really demeans your own sense of agreement or enjoyment, not that you find a new game, or only play single player games, but that you re-adjust. Have a word with yourself.
As for detracting from what other people agreed to, firstly I don't really believe a lot of people read it at all, I think if you actually did you are one of the very few, and more importantly when you do agree to it, (even if it's only in your own head), let alone attempt to reinforce it's legitamcy to others; you are attempting to detract from the consumer rights of all gamers everywhere. Not just in the one game. You are accepting as legal a device solely concieved of to cheat and defraud the games buying public of their legally bought software and rented services. You are encouraging people to give up their rights of ownership. Very poor.
Your fallacies of logic astound me. Just because a lot of people don't read it, and a lot of people have no respect, doesn't mean you shouldn't read it or at least abide by what you hear from it.
You see no reason why people who break the rules shouldn't play the game? "You should just ignore them". The standards and rules set by the people that made the game are the LAWS of the game. You abide by them.
If you saw someone break into a car or beat up a grandma IRL, you'd just ignore them wouldn't you?
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games whereyou might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you.
WHAT THE HELL? Me me me, I I I, customer satisfaction even though I'M BREAKING THE RULES OF THE PRODUCT I'M USING? Everyone else should just bugger off and ignore me while I'm breaking the rules? Give me a break man. Your self-justifications are ludicrous.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored.
Where did you rip this out of? They can supervise and kick people from a game, and will do so, according to the EULA(they can do so without the EULA as well but they'll probably get sued). The only thing is they haven't the resources to take down a gazillion dollar industry since they're the lapdogs of their publishing companies who don't want their money wasted. Only when the infrastructure of the whole game is in jeopardy, like with WoW recently, do they pick up their bones and do something about it. In NO way does this justify you intentionally breaking rules every chance you get.
And Roin. The rules could be clearer. Just because they aren't doesn't mean you should break them. I do agree there should be laws passed about RMTs that would make them illegal by default and accepted if it says so in the EULA. But just because this isn't the case, doesn't mean you should not abide by the EULA.
Originally posted by Babbuun Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Babbuun Roin. Doesn't matter. You get the info before getting the game. This in no way justfies breaking the rules.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
No. You don't, you get it after you bought the game during installation. It's already back home and in your computer at this stage.
Once they have your money then they tell you the rules. Consequently, you are free to ignore them.
If you were given the rules before you bought the game as you suggest, then you would have a valid point.
You can get the rules beforehand if you bother to research them. Also assuming that an MMO would allow RMT is pretty silly...
SOe and CCP games allow RMT. They organise and facilitate it for you like ebay for a cut.
But mainly it's not within the realms of games companies to allow or disallow RMT. I don't need, seek or want their permission. It's none of their business what I do with my character in my game or what I do with my money. Their business is making, selling and maintaining the game and hosting and admining the servers. Plus a little tech support. I don't care if I can get the rules beforehand. I couldn't careless. It's not my job to research games companies rules. They don't pay me. If you want to make rules, you will need to be paying the bills.
The only rules I need to follow are my rules and the law of the land. Some spotty nerd I am paying to administer a server doesn't get to tell me what do as well as eat and drink on my account. They will either live up to their corporate responsabilities or I will take back my money.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Babbuun Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Babbuun Roin. Doesn't matter. You get the info before getting the game. This in no way justfies breaking the rules.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
No. You don't, you get it after you bought the game during installation. It's already back home and in your computer at this stage.
Once they have your money then they tell you the rules. Consequently, you are free to ignore them.
If you were given the rules before you bought the game as you suggest, then you would have a valid point.
You can get the rules beforehand if you bother to research them. Also assuming that an MMO would allow RMT is pretty silly...
SOe and CCP games allow RMT. They organise and facilitate it for you like ebay for a cut.
But mainly it's not within the realms of games companies to allow or disallow RMT. I don't need, seek or want their permission. It's none of their business what I do with my character in my game or what I do with my money. Their business is making, selling and maintaining the game and hosting and admining the servers. Plus a little tech support. I don't care if I can get the rules beforehand. I couldn't careless. It's not my job to research games companies rules. They don't pay me. If you want to make rules, you will need to be paying the bills.
The only rules I need to follow are my rules and the law of the land. Some spotty nerd I am paying to administer a server doesn't get to tell me what do as well as eat and drink on my account. They will either live up to their corporate responsabilities or I will take back my money.
But mainly it's not within the realms of games companies to allow or disallow RMT.
Says WHO???? Says you and your self-justification steamroller. Moving down everything you dislike because it's not their right to tell you what to do?
The only rules I need to follow are my rules and the law of the land. Some spotty nerd I am paying to administer a server doesn't get to tell me what do as well as eat and drink on my account. They will either live up to their corporate responsabilities or I will take back my money.
There, you've said it. You have no respect for anything not done to you at gunpoint. You do what you want and you do it when you like. You're like a cheesy heavy metal song. Just don't go calling these statements anything but self-justification from here on in.
wow...in such little time this thread blows up. I've said my comments and read many.
But I feel like I MUST say this (I'm not a mod, but I felt like I must bring this up):
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, as you are entitled to say your opinions, others can as well. Note that they may disagree with yours. Please refrain from insults or anything that may offend someone else when posting. Look at both sides and see the pros and cons of both sides.
Play nice everyone Everyone is listening to you, your voices are being heard. Please make this a friendly debate, you guys were doing a good job in the beginning of the thread. I am impressed at the intellectual and maturity level of this thread, but lately it has gotten a bit...angst.
Nevertheless I found a lot of points interesting (someone brought up economics, which is my specialist program, I was always interested in studying the economics of a game and cool that someone else thought the same way).
Your fallacies of logic astound me. Just because a lot of people don't read it, and a lot of people have no respect, doesn't mean you shouldn't read it or at least abide by what you hear from it.
You see no reason why people who break the rules shouldn't play the game? "You should just ignore them". The standards and rules set by the people that made the game are the LAWS of the game. You abide by them.
If you saw someone break into a car or beat up a grandma IRL, you'd just ignore them wouldn't you?
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games whereyou might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you.
WHAT THE HELL? Me me me, I I I, customer satisfaction even though I'M BREAKING THE RULES OF THE PRODUCT I'M USING? Everyone else should just bugger off and ignore me while I'm breaking the rules? Give me a break man. Your self-justifications are ludicrous.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored.
Where did you rip this out of? They can supervise and kick people from a game, and will do so, according to the EULA(they can do so without the EULA as well but they'll probably get sued). The only thing is they haven't the resources to take down a gazillion dollar industry since they're the lapdogs of their publishing companies who don't want their money wasted. Only when the infrastructure of the whole game is in jeopardy, like with WoW recently, do they pick up their bones and do something about it. In NO way does this justify you intentionally breaking rules every chance you get.
Just because a few people do read the EULA doesn't mean anyone has to pay attention to it either.
I make the rules for my game. Me me me.
You, don't. If you wish to buy me a game and pay for the subscription then you can make the rules. Until then you will have no say. Nor should you have.
In my previous posts you will find all the pertaining laws regarding EULAs along with the case histories. I suggest you look them up if you wish to learn. You should start with torte law.
Taking on a multi gazillion dollar company is easy where I live and anywhere else in the EU. Since it is a criminal offence you just call the police, who arrest them and then the goverment prosecutes them on your behalf. If your complaint is civil only, there are numerous standards departments or the Trade and Industry department who will do it for you. There is no need to be run over roughshod by big business in this day and age.
The practicality of the matter is should an MMO ban you could simply return the game to shop for your full refund. (opened or unopened). They aren't allowed to ban you. You could have the shopkeeper arrested and perhaps even the MMO companies employee's. But most people are willing to settle for the refund. You can also cancel any credit card payments you have made with your CC company. They are contractually obliged to you. They cannot default on whimsy. The only thing you were obliged to do was pay them in legal tender.
Comments
To the guy who's friend lost his WoW characters items and gold to a keylogger. I understand the idea that since casinos raise crime in real life, gold farmers must raise crime in our virtual lives (even though it was real people commiting a crime, whatever). I still think that your connection between keyloggers and gold farmers is specious at best.
Stop allowing gold farmers to advert? The kid who was shooting off about morality and blah blah blah, most of that type will leave as soon as MMORPG asks for a modest sum of money to keep the site running. As soon as you're ready to help the cause, you can't start admonishing others for not being part of the answer. So long as you're a leech enjoying the community and information that MMORPG.com offers, just keep your zealotry to yourself.
Finally, I don't see anything wrong with gold farmers. I think the equation (and this is just my opinion) runs something like this. Hardcore and casual start playing game A at launch, everything's fine, economy's fine. Hardcore set get better and better, so they begin to level quicker and gather better loot. Hardcore set makes alts with lower level items they found. More casuals come in at that level. Now the economy is skewed. This is what urges a lot of casual players to purchase gold, so they can afford lower level "epic" (legendary, rare, whatever) items that higher level characters have the money to purchase already for their alts. It's unavoidable, so we'll cope.
The question here is not one of playing by the rules. This is a computer game. The rules are hard coded into it. Short of running a third party software you are unable to play outside of the rules.
The question is, who's rules? Your rules, the publisher's rules or the rules made by the democratically elected representatives of the people? It would be nice for everyone to play by everybodies rules, but in the case of any dispute it is the law of the land that holds precedent.
You don't get to make the "rules" any more than I or publishing companies do. If you or anybody else chose to add extra rules to your own game, that's up to you. Other people however should not be, and are not obliged to humor you in anyway. They may play their own game by their own rules.
Each person must make their own decisions for their own reasons. A persons financial status is of no intrest to me. In the case of MMO's the contents of peoples wallets should not be left out of the equation. There is a monthly fee. You pay it, I pay it, gold sellers and gold buyers pay it. I'm happy for you that personal wealth is not something you need to deliberate on, but I'm not willing to think less of those for whom it does.
2) Character learning is all about Trial and Error. Someone that uses a pre-leveled character. Isn't any less capable of learning the character. Then someone who started at lvl 1.
3) I really do not understand the point you are trying to make on this one.
4) Exactly what does me communicating efficent farming spots with other people really have to do with impacting my chosen server and/or world? Why is their lack of farming knowledge my fault? Shouldn't this player be finding out on his own? So I do not know the answer to his question about good farming spot, and my character is bought. Exactly how does that make me any worse off then that person that asked?
5) I do not understand quite what you are saying here either. I bought a lvl 75 Fury and find myself running across your dead body while in the commonlands. Are you suggesting that I wouldn't take the time to rez you? Or are you saying that because someone else was playing my character to max out their level in quick manner. When you screwed up a pull and died. My character who might have had a chance meeting with you, and saved your life wasn't there? Because company x has person b off in a quiet spot leveling my character solo?
6) I would like some proof to back this up. Do you happen to have some hard numbers on how many people use leveling services? Versus those that just prefer to solo, and want nothing to do with grouping?
7) Actually the ability to twink alts and/or guild mate, friends characters. Destabilizes an economy far more then gold buying/selling, imho. Just look at EQ2, they do have a problem with buying/selling of plat. It's not a very big problem. It is not the reason the economy there is out of whack either. It's the high levels with far more resources/incoming. Driving the price of low level/tier items up. Because they all want to twink out their characters in the best possible gear.
8) Not really going to touch this one. Just a subjective opinion.
9) So it's ok if a company like SOE does it, but when a 3rd party company does it. It's a to quote you "person that doesn't belong there" event?
10) I'd rather have a 200+ post thread that is clean, and not flame bait. Then let people like Jorev (Nothing personal Jorev) tell others how He/She thinks they should game.
Fact: I have a friend that currently plays EQ2 with me. She is single 32, and has two kids (10 and 8).
Fact: While I am somewhat indifferent to gold selling/leveling services. I do sometimes tend towards disliking it.
Fact: I know she has made use of a leveling service on one of the banners from this site (twice to my knowledge) To get her Fury from 32 to 42, and Illusionist from 30 to 35 I think it was.
Fact: She did such a thing to be able to stay competitive with me, and two other members from our guild that use to play together regular until her play time, decreased. (School started back up)
Fact: It was her choice to make and I for one do not fault her for it. That is just how she choice to handle the situation.
Fact: It's not my place, or anyone elses outside of SOE. To tell her how she or for that matter anyone else should use their money and/or time to maximize their entertainment from the game. It's between her, SOE, and the man upstairs.
Yet the opinion I get from most of the people here is that. People like her and many others. Have no right to be in their game. Because they lack the ability to put forth endless hours of time. Needed to endlessly grind characters, skills, quest, etc etc in a MMORPG. Oh but people like that should they still be forced to kick out that 15 bucks a month on the regular, right?
What exactly makes you more worthy of playing the game then them? Just because you have more time? Exactly how is that fair?
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
1. The admin has already stated the site will remain free regardless of gold selling ads, please pay attention.
2. and 3. These points would only be true if MMORPG.com refused ads from all game developers which is currently not the case. Since you are not clamoring for this, this argument seems to be a red herring.
Project Entropia has fewer subscribers than most MMOGs that prohibit advantage selling and gold selling. Feel free to post Project Entropia's earnings last year to prove they are more profitable and thus a better business model.
Think whatever you want about PE but it has been the most succesful subscription free mmo to date.
A fact is a fact,we have seen this argument sooooo many times and it has not changed nor will it ever change.Gold farming/buying is here to stay.It is profitable and has a market demand.As long as it is ALLOWED to be profitacle it will be a fact of most subscription based mmo's.
Instead me showing you how profitable PE is why dont YOU show me where PE currency is sold by a 2nd party or even a 3rd party provider?
TBH Blizzard may be the leader in enforcement but even they cant completly stop it.The only way to stop it is to take away the market.It is already common knowledge that players are spending massive amounts of money on in game currency and items not to mention maxed out characters.
Ive always beleived that developers are in bed with the gold farmers anyway.Why would they not be?Think about it they get a "cut" of profits and they get a monthly sub anyway.If they change to item stores most players would just quit.
Here is an old article detailing some profits that players have made:PROFITS.
If developers were serious about this subject in the EULA they would lose a good portion of the player base.I think its more common than most people know or even want to accpet.
BTW here is alink of a PLAYER in PE who is doing quite well for himself for NOT paying a monthly fee:PROFITS.
According to the article itself PE has over 300,000 registered users.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
That is the most rediculous backwards outlook I have ever heard. That is like saying you rent an apartment and ignore the lease because you don't agree with it. Tear the place up and do whatever you want regardless of who else lives there because you have you rights and be damned if anyone is going to infringe on what you want.
Every MMO has a EULA, it's no mystery. You may not be able to read it before you open the box but you know it's in there. Often you can research the product before you buy it and find your answers, or even contact the publisher for a copy if you are that concerned with it. Have you ever contacted a publisher to voice your opposition to some of the clauses? Somehow I doubt it.
Keep fooling yourself, you seem quite content with the little world you have created for yourself.
When I rent an apartment, I am the legal tenant. The landlord is not free to tell me how I may behave in my home. Neither is he free to enter without my permission. These are my rights. If the landlord writes an illegal clause into a lease and I sign it, I am still free to do what I wish within the law. Landlords hold deposits and tenants are legally obliged to pay for any damages that go beyond wear and tear.
More relavently, once signed, the Landlord is unable to add an extra multipage lease to the front door that I must sign and agree to each time I open the front door. (Until my lease expires, that front door belongs to me not him).
The reason we have rights is so that other people are not free to infringe upon us. You have the right to buy gold. You have the right to sell it. I'm not the one trying to infringe on people.
I am under no obligation to contact the publisher before I buy something for hidden clauses, or even research their product. The retailer is under full obligation to present them to me before I purchase. Not do so is called Fraud. Specifically, False Advertising. In the EU, this is a criminal offence, in the U.S. a civil one. These are the rules by which our societies operate and our businesses prosper.
Once again if a publisher is unwilling to sell their products within the constraints of the law they are entirely free not to sell.
Why? If you're playing the game, regardless of whether you payed someone for some gold or leveling or if you did it all yourself, you're still playing the game. Contribution to community can be measured in many, many ways.
If you bought a character at its max level, and no further progression was possible...this would be true. If you're just buying gold, this isn't true. Even if it is true, not everyone plays these games for the chracter progression.
I've grouped with more than a few eBayed characters. Your assertion is flatly false.
Buying gold or a character does not preclude the ability to communicate...and many eBayed chracters I've met communicate just fine. As for learning how to make gold...this is not a difficult affair. See mob...kill mob...loot mob. Done deal. Again, a false assertion.
How so? If they're playing their character they are clearly there. If the character can rez or repair or heal, they're likely going to be doing that. Your statement makes no sense.
These games respawn. If the mobs were a fixed commodity and limited numbers, your statement would have merit. They are not. They are constantly respawning. Another false assertion.
Please provide some evidence of this assertion. All the markets I've seen in-game are filled with players buying items that they've obtained the currency to buy through normal in-game means. The prices are almost always reflective of the normal supply and demand pressures. I've yet to see an instance where absurd amounts of currency flooded a system and pushed prices up.
In fact, in most cases the reason for a rise in prices stems from mudlfation...the phenomenon of content becoming easier due to inflated levels...where currency can be obtained from once-difficult sources much easier and is farmed by normal players to purchase items.
So if you feel this assertion is true...provide an in-game example...name the game, the server, and the items...so we can all take a look at it directly and talk to the people involved and actually find out whether this is really happening or not. I doubt you can do this.
If someone wants to play that way...that's their choice. I know that I certainly don't feel the game is too easy simply because someone else bought some gold. I take the game on its merits for how I experience it. Your argument just doesn't even make sense to me.
Welcome to life. There just so happens to be people all around you doing things that you probably feel they shouldn't be doing.
I've met more players in games who caused problems for me and many others by doing normal in-game things...like hoarding a camp to farm items to sell in the in-game market (not for RL money), being jackasses in public channels, killstealing, griefing, corpse-camping, etc... None of them were involved in the trade of virtual item reselling.
So what do you propose to do about all of them? Since they happen to not be involved in virtual item reselling, do they meet with your approval where the virtual item resellers do not?
Your last comment is clearly just tongue in cheek.
That's not exactly true. For example, Landlords can prevent you from owning pets or limit the number of occupants. Even Communities have covenants that you agree to prior to purchasing the land that have restrictions on what you can do with/on your property.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
True. You can't just agree to do something, think it sucks, and change your behaviour. You've agreed to the game UPKEEPER's and DEVELOPER's terms. These people made the game (by known MMO template) for your enjoyment (or timesink), even if you happen to think they're just greedy criminals. Opinion doesn't matter when you've agreed to play by their rules.
Add to this what you may or may not take away from the people that do abide by the rules, and you've got yourself plenty of reason to either quit the games you're playing or stop the activities that are against the rules of the game. Again some ianubisi or pantastic guy will come repeat the "what am I taking away?" question to derail the conversation. It is arguable since I can't give police evidence and code from the time MMOs first started to prove what RMT does to online economies. On that note everything else that's said apart from the fact that everyone agrees to the EULAs associated with games is irrelevant so no use for you lot to argue how gold farming benefits anyone either. An EULA's an EULA and you've agreed to use THEIR PRODUCT ON THEIR TERMS. Until the games developers are legally obligated to change their EULAs, you gold farming defenders are wrong no matter how you put it.
Didn't we have a case not to long ago in court about a MMORPG and the EULA? (memory is fuzzy)
Edit: Also though alot of companies will take back opened software. There are even more that still to this day won't. Especially anything involving a registration key like a MMORPG.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
"Well I bought it but I don't like the rules that came along so I'll just make my own"
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
But I don't think they are doing anything wrong. It's you that thinks that. I think it's all good.
Hitting accept legitamises nothing. You asked me for the case history and I provided it. Now it's your turn. Show me the law. Show me the case history.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored. It's not an agreement. There is no reason to agree to it. When you click I agree, you may have read the EULA and agreed with it, but there is no reason why anyone else should. That's your personal choice and nothing more.
If you don't like it how about you don't use it. Or if you find yourself on a server with a whole load of people who like me haven't bothered to read the EULA, why not ask the company to start a specific, "I read and agreed with the EULA" only server.
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games where you might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you. Or when you find a gold seller, how about you cancel your subscription. Then market forces will close down all those games and you will be happy. You will have done your part to end gold selling and people demeaning your agreement with the EULA. I want games companies to keep making games. I don't mind if they want to write EULAs, I don't read them. Sure it's one extra click to launch the game I don't need, but I'll live with it thanks. It's by no means enough to ruin my enjoyment of the game and if it ever does, at that time, I will return the game to my place of purchase for my full refund.
I see no reason why I or anyone else should find a new game just because you agree with EULAs. I don't play games with you. Why don't you ask everyone you play with if they have read the EULA, and if they agree with it, and if they say no, put them on ignore. I'll tell you why not, because you wouldn't have any friends left at the end of it. I suggest if this is something you find that really demeans your own sense of agreement or enjoyment, not that you find a new game, or only play single player games, but that you re-adjust. Have a word with yourself.
As for detracting from what other people agreed to, firstly I don't really believe a lot of people read it at all, I think if you actually did you are one of the very few, and more importantly when you do agree to it, (even if it's only in your own head), let alone attempt to reinforce it's legitamcy to others; you are attempting to detract from the consumer rights of all gamers everywhere. Not just in the one game. You are accepting as legal a device solely concieved of to cheat and defraud the games buying public of their legally bought software and rented services. You are encouraging people to give up their rights of ownership. Very poor.
No. You don't, you get it after you bought the game during installation. It's already back home and in your computer at this stage.
Once they have your money then they tell you the rules. Consequently, you are free to ignore them.
If you were given the rules before you bought the game as you suggest, then you would have a valid point.
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
You can sell it to a friend that doesn't think RMT is an essential part of MMOs.
Also age recommendations are another subject altogether. They have less to do with the game and more to do with the individual.
No. You don't, you get it after you bought the game during installation. It's already back home and in your computer at this stage.
Once they have your money then they tell you the rules. Consequently, you are free to ignore them.
If you were given the rules before you bought the game as you suggest, then you would have a valid point.
You can get the rules beforehand if you bother to research them. Also assuming that an MMO would allow RMT is pretty silly...
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
You can sell it to a friend that doesn't think RMT is an essential part of MMOs.
Yes, but according to most MMO EULA's you aren't allowed to Sell, Trade, or even Share your account with anyone. You next comment will be "Well ok you didn't use the key yet". Fine, then why can't the company publishing it or even the developer buy it from me? They took the time to hide the EULA till a point where the product is already purchased, and non-refundable at the store where the title is bought. If they hid the EULA why is my job to then find someone to take the product off my hands? If they aren't willing to do it. What is wrong with me Ebaying the box or account? Is the account not mine? Do I not funnel money into their pockets at a set point each month to keep "my" account? Does someone else pay for my account that, i'm not aware of?
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
You can sell it to a friend that doesn't think RMT is an essential part of MMOs.
Yes, but according to most MMO EULA's you aren't allowed to Sell, Trade, or even Share your account with anyone. You next comment will be "Well ok you didn't use the key yet". Fine, then why can't the company publishing it or even the developer buy it from me? They took the time to hide the EULA till a point where the product is already purchased, and non-refundable at the store where the title is bought. If they hid the EULA why is my job to then find someone to take the product off my hands? If they aren't willing to do it. What is wrong with me Ebaying the box or account? Is the account not mine? Do I not funnel money into their pockets at a set point each month to keep "my" account? Does someone else pay for my account that, i'm not aware of?
Then I'll just have to tell you assuming MMOs would allow RMT is silly and ignorant.
Breaking the EULA was part of the summary judgement in Bnetd v. Blizzard (I believe the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals).
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Do you think the Publisher or Developer of the game would be willing to give me my money back? No, correct? So basically I should just be content with my new 50 dollar cup coaster? Chances are I wouldn't be. I would probably log into the game anyway, and try to make fun for myself to at the very least get back the money I lost.
Better yet a mother and/or father buy their kid a MMO he's been begging for. It's christmas so they give in and buy it. They read the EULA, and it says "Sorry no kids under the age of 13". Well ok I already opened the boxed and installed the game to find this out. Little Johnny is only 12 years old. Mom and Dad look over the game box again. Nope nothing about that on the box. Wait let me go check the website. Nope nothing about it on the website either. The only place it's found is the EULA which is only seen after installing the game.
If you want to hold up the EULA like it's some holy shield. Then you should be damn well willing to put of some sort of path for people to take that can not get the store and/or company. They bought the title from to refund their money. When you act fair then and only then can you expect the people accepting your EULA to also be fair.
You can sell it to a friend that doesn't think RMT is an essential part of MMOs.
Yes, but according to most MMO EULA's you aren't allowed to Sell, Trade, or even Share your account with anyone. You next comment will be "Well ok you didn't use the key yet". Fine, then why can't the company publishing it or even the developer buy it from me? They took the time to hide the EULA till a point where the product is already purchased, and non-refundable at the store where the title is bought. If they hid the EULA why is my job to then find someone to take the product off my hands? If they aren't willing to do it. What is wrong with me Ebaying the box or account? Is the account not mine? Do I not funnel money into their pockets at a set point each month to keep "my" account? Does someone else pay for my account that, i'm not aware of?
Then I'll just have to tell you assuming MMOs would allow RMT is silly and ignorant.
I'm not saying they are. All I am saying is this. You can't expect something from people if you aren't willing to give something in return. Most publishers could care less about their subscriber base when numbers are good, and boxes are selling. If you expect me, and others to be good consumers. Then all I ask is that said company shows me, and other kind of consumers the same kind of respect they ask for.
You want me to agree to the EULA. That's fine, just be upfront with what it says. I don't need/want your technical jargin. I don't need/want your small print. I don't need/want to find your EULA burried in the screens post-installation. If companies can't even be upfront about their own EULA. Why am I expected to be upfront and follow those rules?
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I get your point and agree with it to some degree...
Here is where I disagree however. Once you decide to go ahead and hit the accept button anyways you are legitimizing it regardless of legality and making it acceptable. Not only that but you are detracting from other people that did actually agree to it and meant it.
Regardless of legal rights which I am all for I still feel there is a civic responsbility attached to it. If you don't agree to it, don't use it. Don't support the company buy paying for their product if you find their terms unacceptable or illegal. So while they are not legally holding up their obligations you are giving them justification to continue the practices.
And that is where we are going to have to disagree. If I sign something, say I agree to something, or hit a button that says I agree to something it means I agree to it. If I feel the person or party involved is doing something wrong, unethical, or illegal, I simply refrain from entering into a business arrangement with them.
But I don't think they are doing anything wrong. It's you that thinks that. I think it's all good.
Hitting accept legitamises nothing. You asked me for the case history and I provided it. Now it's your turn. Show me the law. Show me the case history.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored. It's not an agreement. There is no reason to agree to it. When you click I agree, you may have read the EULA and agreed with it, but there is no reason why anyone else should. That's your personal choice and nothing more.
If you don't like it how about you don't use it. Or if you find yourself on a server with a whole load of people who like me haven't bothered to read the EULA, why not ask the company to start a specific, "I read and agreed with the EULA" only server.
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games where you might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you. Or when you find a gold seller, how about you cancel your subscription. Then market forces will close down all those games and you will be happy. You will have done your part to end gold selling and people demeaning your agreement with the EULA. I want games companies to keep making games. I don't mind if they want to write EULAs, I don't read them. Sure it's one extra click to launch the game I don't need, but I'll live with it thanks. It's by no means enough to ruin my enjoyment of the game and if it ever does, at that time, I will return the game to my place of purchase for my full refund.
I see no reason why I or anyone else should find a new game just because you agree with EULAs. I don't play games with you. Why don't you ask everyone you play with if they have read the EULA, and if they agree with it, and if they say no, put them on ignore. I'll tell you why not, because you wouldn't have any friends left at the end of it. I suggest if this is something you find that really demeans your own sense of agreement or enjoyment, not that you find a new game, or only play single player games, but that you re-adjust. Have a word with yourself.
As for detracting from what other people agreed to, firstly I don't really believe a lot of people read it at all, I think if you actually did you are one of the very few, and more importantly when you do agree to it, (even if it's only in your own head), let alone attempt to reinforce it's legitamcy to others; you are attempting to detract from the consumer rights of all gamers everywhere. Not just in the one game. You are accepting as legal a device solely concieved of to cheat and defraud the games buying public of their legally bought software and rented services. You are encouraging people to give up their rights of ownership. Very poor.
Your fallacies of logic astound me. Just because a lot of people don't read it, and a lot of people have no respect, doesn't mean you shouldn't read it or at least abide by what you hear from it.
You see no reason why people who break the rules shouldn't play the game? "You should just ignore them". The standards and rules set by the people that made the game are the LAWS of the game. You abide by them.
If you saw someone break into a car or beat up a grandma IRL, you'd just ignore them wouldn't you?
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to
pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games where you might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you.
WHAT THE HELL? Me me me, I I I, customer satisfaction even though I'M BREAKING THE RULES OF THE PRODUCT I'M USING? Everyone else should just bugger off and ignore me while I'm breaking the rules? Give me a break man. Your self-justifications are ludicrous.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was
their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it
is just spam. Best ignored.
Where did you rip this out of? They can supervise and kick people from a game, and will do so, according to the EULA(they can do so without the EULA as well but they'll probably get sued). The only thing is they haven't the resources to take down a gazillion dollar industry since they're the lapdogs of their publishing companies who don't want their money wasted. Only when the infrastructure of the whole game is in jeopardy, like with WoW recently, do they pick up their bones and do something about it. In NO way does this justify you intentionally breaking rules every chance you get.
And Roin. The rules could be clearer. Just because they aren't doesn't mean you should break them. I do agree there should be laws passed about RMTs that would make them illegal by default and accepted if it says so in the EULA. But just because this isn't the case, doesn't mean you should not abide by the EULA.
No. You don't, you get it after you bought the game during installation. It's already back home and in your computer at this stage.
Once they have your money then they tell you the rules. Consequently, you are free to ignore them.
If you were given the rules before you bought the game as you suggest, then you would have a valid point.
You can get the rules beforehand if you bother to research them. Also assuming that an MMO would allow RMT is pretty silly...
SOe and CCP games allow RMT. They organise and facilitate it for you like ebay for a cut.
But mainly it's not within the realms of games companies to allow or disallow RMT. I don't need, seek or want their permission. It's none of their business what I do with my character in my game or what I do with my money. Their business is making, selling and maintaining the game and hosting and admining the servers. Plus a little tech support. I don't care if I can get the rules beforehand. I couldn't careless. It's not my job to research games companies rules. They don't pay me. If you want to make rules, you will need to be paying the bills.
The only rules I need to follow are my rules and the law of the land. Some spotty nerd I am paying to administer a server doesn't get to tell me what do as well as eat and drink on my account. They will either live up to their corporate responsabilities or I will take back my money.
No. You don't, you get it after you bought the game during installation. It's already back home and in your computer at this stage.
Once they have your money then they tell you the rules. Consequently, you are free to ignore them.
If you were given the rules before you bought the game as you suggest, then you would have a valid point.
You can get the rules beforehand if you bother to research them. Also assuming that an MMO would allow RMT is pretty silly...
SOe and CCP games allow RMT. They organise and facilitate it for you like ebay for a cut.
But mainly it's not within the realms of games companies to allow or disallow RMT. I don't need, seek or want their permission. It's none of their business what I do with my character in my game or what I do with my money. Their business is making, selling and maintaining the game and hosting and admining the servers. Plus a little tech support. I don't care if I can get the rules beforehand. I couldn't careless. It's not my job to research games companies rules. They don't pay me. If you want to make rules, you will need to be paying the bills.
The only rules I need to follow are my rules and the law of the land. Some spotty nerd I am paying to administer a server doesn't get to tell me what do as well as eat and drink on my account. They will either live up to their corporate responsabilities or I will take back my money.
But mainly it's not within the realms of games companies to allow or disallow RMT.
Says WHO???? Says you and your self-justification steamroller. Moving down everything you dislike because it's not their right to tell you what to do?
The only rules I need to follow are my rules and the law of the
land. Some spotty nerd I am paying to administer a server doesn't get
to tell me what do as well as eat and drink on my account. They will
either live up to their corporate responsabilities or I will take back
my money.
There, you've said it. You have no respect for anything not done to you at gunpoint. You do what you want and you do it when you like. You're like a cheesy heavy metal song. Just don't go calling these statements anything but self-justification from here on in.
wow...in such little time this thread blows up. I've said my comments and read many.
But I feel like I MUST say this (I'm not a mod, but I felt like I must bring this up):
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, as you are entitled to say your opinions, others can as well. Note that they may disagree with yours. Please refrain from insults or anything that may offend someone else when posting. Look at both sides and see the pros and cons of both sides.
Play nice everyone
Nevertheless I found a lot of points interesting (someone brought up economics, which is my specialist program, I was always interested in studying the economics of a game and cool that someone else thought the same way).
YouTube Page
You see no reason why people who break the rules shouldn't play the game? "You should just ignore them". The standards and rules set by the people that made the game are the LAWS of the game. You abide by them.
If you saw someone break into a car or beat up a grandma IRL, you'd just ignore them wouldn't you?
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games where you might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you.
WHAT THE HELL? Me me me, I I I, customer satisfaction even though I'M BREAKING THE RULES OF THE PRODUCT I'M USING? Everyone else should just bugger off and ignore me while I'm breaking the rules? Give me a break man. Your self-justifications are ludicrous.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored.
Where did you rip this out of? They can supervise and kick people from a game, and will do so, according to the EULA(they can do so without the EULA as well but they'll probably get sued). The only thing is they haven't the resources to take down a gazillion dollar industry since they're the lapdogs of their publishing companies who don't want their money wasted. Only when the infrastructure of the whole game is in jeopardy, like with WoW recently, do they pick up their bones and do something about it. In NO way does this justify you intentionally breaking rules every chance you get.
Just because a few people do read the EULA doesn't mean anyone has to pay attention to it either.
I make the rules for my game. Me me me.
You, don't. If you wish to buy me a game and pay for the subscription then you can make the rules. Until then you will have no say. Nor should you have.
In my previous posts you will find all the pertaining laws regarding EULAs along with the case histories. I suggest you look them up if you wish to learn. You should start with torte law.
Taking on a multi gazillion dollar company is easy where I live and anywhere else in the EU. Since it is a criminal offence you just call the police, who arrest them and then the goverment prosecutes them on your behalf. If your complaint is civil only, there are numerous standards departments or the Trade and Industry department who will do it for you. There is no need to be run over roughshod by big business in this day and age.
The practicality of the matter is should an MMO ban you could simply return the game to shop for your full refund. (opened or unopened). They aren't allowed to ban you. You could have the shopkeeper arrested and perhaps even the MMO companies employee's. But most people are willing to settle for the refund. You can also cancel any credit card payments you have made with your CC company. They are contractually obliged to you. They cannot default on whimsy. The only thing you were obliged to do was pay them in legal tender.