Well I must say this has turned into a very interesting thread to say the least. Some very well stated comments, and still remaining civil. I must head off to work though. So for now I guess we'll just agree to disagree, Babbuun. It's been a pleasure though.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by lainey wow...in such little time this thread blows up. I've said my comments and read many.
But I feel like I MUST say this (I'm not a mod, but I felt like I must bring this up):
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, as you are entitled to say your opinions, others can as well. Note that they may disagree with yours. Please refrain from insults or anything that may offend someone else when posting. Look at both sides and see the pros and cons of both sides.
Play nice everyone Everyone is listening to you, your voices are being heard. Please make this a friendly debate, you guys were doing a good job in the beginning of the thread. I am impressed at the intellectual and maturity level of this thread, but lately it has gotten a bit...angst.
Nevertheless I found a lot of points interesting (someone brought up economics, which is my specialist program, I was always interested in studying the economics of a game and cool that someone else thought the same way).
i voted no. coz those farmers are also earning a living.
Most farmers are from China. Life there is not as as good as america. The populations in china is hell lot higher than USA. So, finding a job is not easy.
Nowaday teenage wont work as real farmer ( as in plantation) , they have to find alternative way to earn a living.
Put yourself in their shoes, if you cant find a job for many months and someone hire you to farm gold, you will do it.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Babbuun Your fallacies of logic astound me. Just because a lot of people don't read it, and a lot of people have no respect, doesn't mean you shouldn't read it or at least abide by what you hear from it.
You see no reason why people who break the rules shouldn't play the game? "You should just ignore them". The standards and rules set by the people that made the game are the LAWS of the game. You abide by them.
If you saw someone break into a car or beat up a grandma IRL, you'd just ignore them wouldn't you?
Instead of me not buying a game I wish to play for a price I wish to pay, because you think I should read and agree to a EULA, how about you not playing online games whereyou might meet people who wish to play in a different style to you.
WHAT THE HELL? Me me me, I I I, customer satisfaction even though I'M BREAKING THE RULES OF THE PRODUCT I'M USING? Everyone else should just bugger off and ignore me while I'm breaking the rules? Give me a break man. Your self-justifications are ludicrous.
The EULA is not a companies terms of use. A company may wish it was their terms of use. You may wish it was their terms of use. Actually it is just spam. Best ignored.
Where did you rip this out of? They can supervise and kick people from a game, and will do so, according to the EULA(they can do so without the EULA as well but they'll probably get sued). The only thing is they haven't the resources to take down a gazillion dollar industry since they're the lapdogs of their publishing companies who don't want their money wasted. Only when the infrastructure of the whole game is in jeopardy, like with WoW recently, do they pick up their bones and do something about it. In NO way does this justify you intentionally breaking rules every chance you get.
Just because a few people do read the EULA doesn't mean anyone has to pay attention to it either.
I make the rules for my game. Me me me.
You, don't. If you wish to buy me a game and pay for the subscription then you can make the rules. Until then you will have no say. Nor should you have.
In my previous posts you will find all the pertaining laws regarding EULAs along with the case histories. I suggest you look them up if you wish to learn. You should start with torte law.
Taking on a multi gazillion dollar company is easy where I live and anywhere else in the EU. Since it is a criminal offence you just call the police, who arrest them and then the goverment prosecutes them on your behalf. If you complaint is civil only their numerous standards departments or the trade and industry department who will do it for you. There is no need to be run over roughshod by big business in this day and age.
The practicality of the matter is should an MMO ban you could simply return the game to shop for your full refund. (opened or unopened). They aren't allowed to ban you. You could have the shopkeeper arrested and perhaps even the MMO companies employee's. But most people are willing to settle for the refund. You can also cancel any credit card payments you have made with your CC company. They are contractually obliged to you. They cannot default on whimsy. The only thing you were obliged to do was pay them in legal tender.
If you're banned return the product and if you don't get your refund, bring them to court. Simple as that. If this is the case-specific law here. However, the playing field is set by the game developer, not you and not the RMT companies. The reason for your ban was justified, the EULA is the law of the MMO, and you shouldn't have been in the position to get banned in the first place... Are you saying that people with third party programs and hacks who get banned can sue as well? Of course they'd be arrested for the hacks and third party programs but they'd still get their money back from being banned?
You shouldn't disregard EULAs however. It's the rules you've agreed to abide by upon installment, no matter how faulty the system to uphold and police them is.
If you're banned return the product and if you don't get your refund, bring them to court. Simple as that. If this is the case-specific law here. However, the playing field is set by the game developer, not you and not the RMT companies. The reason for your ban was justified, the EULA is the law of the MMO, and you shouldn't have been in the position to get banned in the first place... Are you saying that people with third party programs and hacks who get banned can sue as well? Of course they'd be arrested for the hacks and third party programs but they'd still get their money back from being banned?
You shouldn't disregard EULAs however. It's the rules you've agreed to abide by upon installment, no matter how faulty the system to uphold and police them is.
You should always disregard EULAs on principle. They are an attempt to defraud you of your legally held rights. Clicking "I agree" as part of your installation process should not be misconstrued as actual agreement. It is done so under duress. There are specific requirements that a contract must meet in order to be considered valid. A EULA does not meet very many of them.
The playing field is not set by the games company, it is set by parliament. The playing field in the EU is firmly weighted in favour of the consumer. As it should be.
RMT is legal. Any games company that bans you for RMT will lose in court. The Queen said it's O.K. and any company that operates here does so at her behest. This is also true anywhere in the EU or North America (minus the bit about the Queen of course if you are not British or Canadian).
Where I come from people don't sue. But yes if you are banned from hacks you can also get your game exchanged for a new one or refunded. You could have the retailer arrested but it would be pretty small minded.
You need to be smart like the Punkbuster people when it comes to banning, and not ban them from online play, but ban them from online play in PB protected servers. If the game says online play, then it must play online. They are not allowed to ban you. If it says online game on the box, it must be online, to be otherwise is a criminal offence. (Civil in the U.S.).
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Babbuun
If you're banned return the product and if you don't get your refund, bring them to court. Simple as that. If this is the case-specific law here. However, the playing field is set by the game developer, not you and not the RMT companies. The reason for your ban was justified, the EULA is the law of the MMO, and you shouldn't have been in the position to get banned in the first place... Are you saying that people with third party programs and hacks who get banned can sue as well? Of course they'd be arrested for the hacks and third party programs but they'd still get their money back from being banned?
You shouldn't disregard EULAs however. It's the rules you've agreed to abide by upon installment, no matter how faulty the system to uphold and police them is.
You should always disregard EULAs on principle. They are an attempt to defraud you of your legally held rights. Clicking "I agree" as part of your installation process should not be misconstrued as actual agreement. It is done so under duress. There are specific requirements that a contract must meet in order to be considered valid. A EULA does not meet very many of them.
The playing field is not set by the games company, it is set by parliament. The playing field in the EU is firmly weighted in favour of the consumer. As it should be.
RMT is legal. Any games company that bans you for RMT will lose in court. The Queen said it's O.K. and any company that operates here does so at her behest. This is also true anywhere in the EU or North America (minus the bit about the Queen of course if you are not British or Canadian).
Where I come from people don't sue. But yes if you are banned from hacks you can also get your game exchanged for a new one or refunded. You could have the retailer arrested but it would be pretty small minded.
You need to be smart like the Punkbuster people when it comes to banning, and not ban them from online play, but ban them from online play in PB protected servers. If the game says online play, then it must play online. They are not allowed to ban you. If it says online game on the box, it must be online, to be otherwise is a criminal offence. (Civil in the U.S.).
The games industry has had it's trouble with the law. The games industry suffers from a universal lack of respect. People abusing the games industry (aka you) think they're a bunch of pimpled nerds (your words not mine) and the people who are impartial to them consider them to be nerds as well, easy to trample on and not likely to revolt. Escapist nerds. The laws and decrees concerning the games industry have always been hazy, and with people outside the industry and the people who make the law clearly not interested, they will continue to be such.
I'm not saying certain rules and scams in the license agreements aren't ridiculous. However you, the consumer, should still not break their rules. Since you seem to have done your law research you should sue them about the illegal ones and then enjoy your game. If you decide to play the game, you DO abide by the rules of the game and the developers, the pimpled nerds that have brought you some sort of escapist enjoyment you think is momentarily enjoyable.
What if everyone decided to go haywire with every game? Everyone would be botting, hacking and abusing themselves to the top of the game, and the moderators would have little chance of stopping them.
If they're breaking the law, you report them. Otherwise you play by their rules.
In recent cases RMT companies have gotten more and more aggressive and criminal. In the recent WoW case, they're leeching customers and money from the game developer.
We just can't have people doing what they want when they want to, I thought that was apparent from the real world. Even you, the cheesy heavy metal song, should know this. You probably have some norms and some restrictions to what you will and will not do inside an MMO, however not everyone does, and if it's the universal attitude that people just shit on the work of pimple-faced nerds, games are going down real fast.
Have some respect for these people and MAYBE they'll start respecting you back. Now give me some spots to closed betas MMO companies please!
Blizzard publicly lauds the fact that they ban thousands of accounts for illegal activities, such as using exploits and gold farming. They do so under the terms set in the EULA.
If EULAs are so weak (legally speaking), I'd imagine that those prevented from playing wouldve taken action by now.
As I've stated previously, the Bnetd v. Blizzard case is one example where the EULA was used as part of the summary judgment.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
i dont care if people want to use them let them im tired of ppl complaining of ppl using these things and ebay. they spent there money for it so i dont see the problem
Originally posted by IcoGames Blizzard publicly lauds the fact that they ban thousands of accounts for illegal activities, such as using exploits and gold farming. They do so under the terms set in the EULA.
It garners them a great deal of positive press and fan love from those opposed to the practice, and they also know that the vast majority of those accounts will pony up again for the retail purchase of the game as well as the next barrage of monthly fees. For the company, it's a win-win situation. For the farmer, it's just a part of their costs. Blizzard, especially, learned this lovely little cycle during their Battle.Net days.
Originally posted by IcoGames If EULAs are so weak (legally speaking), I'd imagine that those prevented from playing wouldve taken action by now.
They're not weak in terms of the actions they're allowed to take...that is to say, you break the rules they can terminate the contract of service. They are, however, not a matter of legality. That is to say, they are not going to be useful in a lawsuit. They in no way whatsoever constitute law, and thus there is no policing action government has to take in this, except where breach of service may be argued.
Originally posted by IcoGames As I've stated previously, the Bnetd v. Blizzard case is one example where the EULA was used as part of the summary judgment.
Bnetd reverse-engineered the binaries, and set up an emulation server. That is the cause of their loss of the judgement. It was not simply the EULA in violation.
Originally posted by ianubisi Bnetd reverse-engineered the binaries, and set up an emulation server. That is the cause of their loss of the judgement. It was not simply the EULA in violation.
Bnetd v. Blizzard By signing the TOUs and EULAs, Appellants expressly relinquished their rights to reverse engineer.
I read the above quote as the Court expressingly stating the EULA prohibitted Bnetd from reverse engineering Battle.net.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by Babbuun The games industry has had it's trouble with the law. The games industry suffers from a universal lack of respect. People abusing the games industry (aka you) think they're a bunch of pimpled nerds (your words not mine) and the people who are impartial to them consider them to be nerds as well, easy to trample on and not likely to revolt. Escapist nerds. The laws and decrees concerning the games industry have always been hazy, and with people outside the industry and the people who make the law clearly not interested, they will continue to be such.
I'm not saying certain rules and scams in the license agreements aren't ridiculous. However you, the consumer, should still not break their rules. Since you seem to have done your law research you should sue them about the illegal ones and then enjoy your game. If you decide to play the game, you DO abide by the rules of the game and the developers, the pimpled nerds that have brought you some sort of escapist enjoyment you think is momentarily enjoyable.
What if everyone decided to go haywire with every game? Everyone would be botting, hacking and abusing themselves to the top of the game, and the moderators would have little chance of stopping them.
If they're breaking the law, you report them. Otherwise you play by their rules.
In recent cases RMT companies have gotten more and more aggressive and criminal. In the recent WoW case, they're leeching customers and money from the game developer.
We just can't have people doing what they want when they want to, I thought that was apparent from the real world. Even you, the cheesy heavy metal song, should know this. You probably have some norms and some restrictions to what you will and will not do inside an MMO, however not everyone does, and if it's the universal attitude that people just shit on the work of pimple-faced nerds, games are going down real fast.
Have some respect for these people and MAYBE they'll start respecting you back. Now give me some spots to closed betas MMO companies please!
I do whatever I please when I play MMO's. I've never been policed. I have never read any rules nor will I choose to abide by any but my own. I do not respect the authority of anyone in my employ over my own. Least of all a developer or publisher who's first priority is personal profit. How can anyone in such a position maintain clear and unbiased judgement? It's a service industry. Their job is to serve. Anything more is over and above their station.
Games developers code their game with improvements to defeat the abuse of their system. In WoW they have that nifty feature where people can enhance your stuff without you handing it over for example, and the game has built in anti-cheat that scans for third party hacks. This is the correct way to prevent abuse. Add a language filter option, an ignore button. These problems have been addressed technically and are actively updated. I require no moderation nor would I welcome it. Tools that allow me to moderate my game for myself however, to my own individual preferences, are must have features.
It's not just a case of people just doing what they want, it's also a case of people doing what they paid for. They pay to do what they want, and as far as humanly possible thats precisely what every single person on the planet should be allowed to do. Inside or outside the virtual world. People just doing what they want is the goal of every free society. We can have it and wherever possible we should.
Everybody just doing what you want or just doing what the dev's want however is something to be actively avoided.
If you wish to stop someone from doing something they want, you should have a pretty cast iron case for why and provide hard evidence. Opinion should never suffice. Especially if that something will take away their source of income. The gold sellers I have met have not exactly come from wealthy backgrounds.
The spotty games developers that I know don't seem very trampled on to me. They seem to be happy well paid folk doing a creative job they enjoy. I don't feel any need to protect them, neither do I see them suffering from an overwhelming disrespect. Quite the opposite, the job has a certain amount of kudos amongst the ranks of nerds.
I fail to see how gold sellers have leeched any customers or money from WoW. They are not in competition with Wow. People don't leave the game to subscribe to gold farming sites instead and Blizzard does not sell items, levelling or Gold, so they aren't taking any of their money. It's complimentry business, not competative.
I don't consider RMT to be in anyway abusive, or going haywire. I honestly couldn't care less how many people do it. RMT companies are most certainly not criminal, which is why they are able to maintain their sites and advertise online wihtout prosecution. I understand you don't like them, but they aren't breaking any laws. I think more companies should offer trade sites so that RMT can be conducted in an enviroment of confidence and trust, free from the uncertainty of being ripped off.
I'm not looking for the respect of the dev's. I couldn't care less if they respect me. I doubt they even know I exist. I respect games companies enough to pay for them. It's a commercial arrangement. I expect them to respect me enough to provide the goods agreed on. If they don't the deal is off.
I don't report people who break the law. Unless they are causing me trouble I can't resolve in a more suitable fashion. It is not my job to police the games industry nor my crusade. I don't feel I have to sue people to enjoy my games. Neither do I feel I have to ban people. I can't think of a single player in an MMO who I have thought needed to be banned.
Originally posted by ianubisi Bnetd reverse-engineered the binaries, and set up an emulation server. That is the cause of their loss of the judgement. It was not simply the EULA in violation.
Bnetd v. Blizzard By signing the TOUs and EULAs, Appellants expressly relinquished their rights to reverse engineer.
I read the above quote as the Court expressingly stating the EULA prohibitted Bnetd from reverse engineering Battle.net.
But the court didn't go for that.
Blizzard even tried to get them for reverse engineering under the DCMA laws, despite that DCMA laws specifically don't apply to computer software.
The court didn't go for that either.
They ruled against Bnetd only on the interoperability exception.
EULA's and TOU were proposed, explained in detail and the court dismissed it. They ruled against Bnetd solely because their software didn't use the online cd key check which would allow non paying customers and pirates to play online and hence cost Blizzard money.
Originally posted by baff I fail to see how gold sellers have leeched any customers or money from WoW. They are not in competition with Wow. People don't leave the game to subscribe to gold farming sites instead and Blizzard does not sell items, levelling or Gold, so they aren't taking any of their money. It's complimentry business, not competative.
Have you played L2? I'm sure if you did, you would agree that Gold Farmers (or more appropriately the bots) can have a large impact in the game. Many others and myself left L2, tired of dealing with that situation.
Although not as common as it was in L2, Gold Farmers do have an impact in WoW. Server economies can be over inflated and there are several areas that are 'controlled' by the Farmers, such as Azshara.
Originally posted by baff I don't report people who break the law. Unless they are causing me trouble I can't resolve in a more suitable fashion.
This seems a little convenient. You're all for freedom, but once it impacts your game you'll side with the company and their rules.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I havent played L2 for long enough to notice it. I hear lots of reports the same as yours. Without further evidence I am inclined to believe it. WoW is much improved to this with almost all of the favoured drops in instances so that they can be camped by everyone online simultaneously. I've also heard of people complaining about mining bots in Eve.
Instancing is one of the technical advancements that Blizzard has made to resolve this problem. It's a very advanced peice of software. It has learnt from it's predecessors. This is the manner which I would encourage to defeat these issues, not impeaching decent people for doing nothing wrong.
.
As for the law, it is the system of last resort. Always.
No one likes a snitch.
The rule of law is a means to an ends not a goal in it's own right. Say no to totalitarianism.
Originally posted by baff But the court didn't go for that. Blizzard even tried to get them for reverse engineering under the DCMA laws, despite that DCMA laws specifically don't apply to computer software.
The court ruled that By signing the TOUs and EULAs, Appellants expressly relinquished their rights to reverse engineer. Summary judgement on this issue was properly granted in favor of Blizzard and Vivendi.
The court was agreeing to a prior judgement of a lower court.
Originally posted by baff They ruled against Bnetd only on the interoperability exception. EULA's and TOU were proposed, explained in detail and the court dismissed it. They ruled against Bnetd solely because their software didn't use the online cd key check which would allow non paying customers and pirates to play online and hence cost Blizzard money.
The Interoperability Exception was another portion of the Summary Judgement, it didn't exclude the above portion.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by baff As for the law, it is the system of last resort. Always. No one likes a snitch. The rule of law is a means to an ends not a goal in it's own right. Say no to totalitarianism.
Oh c'mon now. If everyone respected laws in the first place, we wouldn't have to rely on 'snitches'. If I see someone breaking into your house, am I the evil 'snitch' for calling the police?
The same goes for MMOs, if players would respect the wishes (ie. rules) of the developers there wouldn't be a need for 'snitches'. If that were the case, most likely I'd still be enjoying my time in L2.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by baff But the court didn't go for that. Blizzard even tried to get them for reverse engineering under the DCMA laws, despite that DCMA laws specifically don't apply to computer software.
The court ruled that By signing the TOUs and EULAs, Appellants expressly relinquished their rights to reverse engineer. Summary judgement on this issue was properly granted in favor of Blizzard and Vivendi.
The court was agreeing to a prior judgement of a lower court.
Originally posted by baff They ruled against Bnetd only on the interoperability exception. EULA's and TOU were proposed, explained in detail and the court dismissed it. They ruled against Bnetd solely because their software didn't use the online cd key check which would allow non paying customers and pirates to play online and hence cost Blizzard money.
The Interoperability Exception was another portion of the Summary Judgement, it didn't exclude the above portion.
Boo. Your right and I'm wrong. Booo.
Thanks for that link and your insights. Always a pleasure to stand corrected and learn something new. This is a great case, right up my street.
They were prosecuted for breaking the EULA and TOU. EULAs and TOU are not completely legally buinding agreements, but in Louisiana elements of it are considered "enforceable". Specifically the parts refering to copying and reverse engineering. In this case it was the reverse engineering.
The waived their rights to fair use. That means they thought they would lose.
It will be intresting to see what they consider to be enforceable. I'll look it up and report back to you.
Originally posted by baff As for the law, it is the system of last resort. Always. No one likes a snitch. The rule of law is a means to an ends not a goal in it's own right. Say no to totalitarianism.
Oh c'mon now. If everyone respected laws in the first place, we wouldn't have to rely on 'snitches'. If I see someone breaking into your house, am I the evil 'snitch' for calling the police?
The same goes for MMOs, if players would respect the wishes (ie. rules) of the developers there wouldn't be a need for 'snitches'. If that were the case, most likely I'd still be enjoying my time in L2.
What if you see someone speeding or smoking a joint. Or an underage drinker?
I don't think RMT compares to burglary on the scale of evils. In afct I don't think it ranks on the evil scale at all. It's not gold sellers fault the game is poorly made.
Anyone notice the irony of people spending large amounts of their time writing very long and involved posts about how they have to buy Gold... because they dont have the time to play as much as others?
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Babbuun The games industry has had it's trouble with the law. The games industry suffers from a universal lack of respect. People abusing the games industry (aka you) think they're a bunch of pimpled nerds (your words not mine) and the people who are impartial to them consider them to be nerds as well, easy to trample on and not likely to revolt. Escapist nerds. The laws and decrees concerning the games industry have always been hazy, and with people outside the industry and the people who make the law clearly not interested, they will continue to be such.
I'm not saying certain rules and scams in the license agreements aren't ridiculous. However you, the consumer, should still not break their rules. Since you seem to have done your law research you should sue them about the illegal ones and then enjoy your game. If you decide to play the game, you DO abide by the rules of the game and the developers, the pimpled nerds that have brought you some sort of escapist enjoyment you think is momentarily enjoyable.
What if everyone decided to go haywire with every game? Everyone would be botting, hacking and abusing themselves to the top of the game, and the moderators would have little chance of stopping them.
If they're breaking the law, you report them. Otherwise you play by their rules.
In recent cases RMT companies have gotten more and more aggressive and criminal. In the recent WoW case, they're leeching customers and money from the game developer.
We just can't have people doing what they want when they want to, I thought that was apparent from the real world. Even you, the cheesy heavy metal song, should know this. You probably have some norms and some restrictions to what you will and will not do inside an MMO, however not everyone does, and if it's the universal attitude that people just shit on the work of pimple-faced nerds, games are going down real fast.
Have some respect for these people and MAYBE they'll start respecting you back. Now give me some spots to closed betas MMO companies please!
1. I do whatever I please when I play MMO's. I've never been policed. I have never read any rules nor will I choose to abide by any but my own. I do not respect the authority of anyone in my employ over my own. Least of all a developer or publisher who's first priority is personal profit. How can anyone in such a position maintain clear and unbiased judgement? It's a service industry. Their job is to serve. Anything more is over and above their station.
2. Games developers code their game with improvements to defeat the abuse of their system. In WoW they have that nifty feature where people can enhance your stuff without you handing it over for example, and the game has built in anti-cheat that scans for third party hacks. This is the correct way to prevent abuse. Add a language filter option, an ignore button. These problems have been addressed technically and are actively updated. I require no moderation nor would I welcome it. Tools that allow me to moderate my game for myself however, to my own individual preferences, are must have features.
3.It's not just a case of people just doing what they want, it's also a case of people doing what they paid for. They pay to do what they want, and as far as humanly possible thats precisely what every single person on the planet should be allowed to do. Inside or outside the virtual world. People just doing what they want is the goal of every free society. We can have it and wherever possible we should.
4. Everybody just doing what you want or just doing what the dev's want however is something to be actively avoided.
5. If you wish to stop someone from doing something they want, you should have a pretty cast iron case for why and provide hard evidence. Opinion should never suffice. Especially if that something will take away their source of income. The gold sellers I have met have not exactly come from wealthy backgrounds.
6. The spotty games developers that I know don't seem very trampled on to me. They seem to be happy well paid folk doing a creative job they enjoy. I don't feel any need to protect them, neither do I see them suffering from an overwhelming disrespect. Quite the opposite, the job has a certain amount of kudos amongst the ranks of nerds.
7. I fail to see how gold sellers have leeched any customers or money from WoW. They are not in competition with Wow. People don't leave the game to subscribe to gold farming sites instead and Blizzard does not sell items, levelling or Gold, so they aren't taking any of their money. It's complimentry business, not competative.
8. I don't consider RMT to be in anyway abusive, or going haywire. I honestly couldn't care less how many people do it. RMT companies are most certainly not criminal, which is why they are able to maintain their sites and advertise online wihtout prosecution. I understand you don't like them, but they aren't breaking any laws. I think more companies should offer trade sites so that RMT can be conducted in an enviroment of confidence and trust, free from the uncertainty of being ripped off.
9. I'm not looking for the respect of the dev's. I couldn't care less if they respect me. I doubt they even know I exist. I respect games companies enough to pay for them. It's a commercial arrangement. I expect them to respect me enough to provide the goods agreed on. If they don't the deal is off.
10. I don't report people who break the law. Unless they are causing me trouble I can't resolve in a more suitable fashion. It is not my job to police the games industry nor my crusade. I don't feel I have to sue people to enjoy my games. Neither do I feel I have to ban people. I can't think of a single player in an MMO who I have thought needed to be banned.
I believe in people, and the ability to abide by certain norms of life, not killing each other, not harming each other intentionally (I'm not talking fits of rage, but premeditated, or continuous stuff), and being able to pull your own weight. Not much to ask, is it?
1. You have a serious attitude problem here. Games are recreational fun, yes. However, when you go to a mini-golf course, do you have little china-men come rip out the obstacles by their nails and pivots and just putt hole-in-ones for you all the time? If you have a problem with a court, doesn't the court supervisor come and help you out as soon as possible? He doesn't lick your boots and give you a blowjob while at it, but he does try to help you with the problem you're facing. Also he wouldn't like weird people coming to his court and stealing another client's ball and club(7.) and giving them to you and you acting like they're rightfully yours since you paid the weird people.
2. What you're implying is that everyone in the real world should have chips in their heads to prevent them from violent behaviour as in games you should have code to block off any attempts at doing anything abusive. On one side you're going extremely nihilistically liberal with the thought that people should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want and on the other you say games should be coded to be foolproof(creating extremely small and restricted game worlds, at least for the next decade if it would start now). If you want an open-source game, go play an open-source game.
3. Customers pay to play by the rules provided, as with a karting track(you play by the rules or are kicked out). In the case of most MMOs they're not buying a program to make their own game, they're buying a ready-made game, and games and recreational activities are seldom without rules.
4. You have to have opinions, and the way to voice your opinions is to either play or not play the game or purchase or not purchase the game. That's your right as a consumer. Tampering with the product is unacceptable unless that is the nature of the product. Developers are not golden gods and they shouldn't lie to/cheat players. Why should players do any differently? It's called mutual respect.
5. Their backgrounds have nothing to do with anything. IF you think you're doing charity work by helping RMT companies you're pretty twisted. Go to Africa. Help a homeless person whenever you can (I know I do). Buying gold is telling these people they can rip off people in richer countries. In a lot of poor countries and with a lot of charities scamming is a huge problem. And scamming is what these people will do if you just give them space. They don't have much respect in general for recreational games nor companies. By these people I don't mean the little man, I mean their bosses, just to clarify that. Most poorer countries deserve our money and attention, but this is just negative attention.
6. So you think they have it all made and they sit in their chairs like golden gods in this department? To make a succesful and fun game is difficult. If someone makes a good game, he deserves my respect. If a group of people make and moderate a good game, they've deserved my respect. If a group of people make a good game and moderate it badly, I stop playing.
7. 8. Now obviously you're not familiar with what has been happening with WoW in the past months. Keylogger scams that take over and steal the gold and items from players. This has been, for the large part, intentional and premeditated money scamming for RMT companies.
Now you might say the players had it coming with bad security measures and that eploiting people is so much fun when they're unaware of being able to defend themselves. That's the sadist inside you speaking. My advice is to turn this little voice off from time to time or learn to use it in an appropriate manner, like in martial arts, contact sports, or in special forums where people flame each other. Now you're thinking, "why the hell should I listen to what anyone says about my behaviour, as a matter of fact why should I listen to anyone or anything, I do whatever I like". That's the nihilist/anarchist inside you speaking. My advice is to tone this voice down too, since it would make for real bad living if everyone thought this way. Learn to use this voice appropriately, start debating as a hobby and defend things that are impossible to defend.
9. By respect I mean they'd do a better job if people weren't buying/hacking/scamming all the time. You can't make a completely foolproof game, but you can have enough character to not exploit the loopholes.
10. Are you intentionally trying to shed a bad light on people who defend RMT? If so you've made a great post.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by IcoGames
Originally posted by baff As for the law, it is the system of last resort. Always. No one likes a snitch. The rule of law is a means to an ends not a goal in it's own right. Say no to totalitarianism.
Oh c'mon now. If everyone respected laws in the first place, we wouldn't have to rely on 'snitches'. If I see someone breaking into your house, am I the evil 'snitch' for calling the police?
The same goes for MMOs, if players would respect the wishes (ie. rules) of the developers there wouldn't be a need for 'snitches'. If that were the case, most likely I'd still be enjoying my time in L2.
What if you see someone speeding or smoking a joint. Or an underage drinker?
I don't think RMT compares to burglary on the scale of evils. In afct I don't think it ranks on the evil scale at all. It's not gold sellers fault the game is poorly made.
Ah I see. You're bitter. You think you could make a better game than what's currently available? You don't have to defend RMT for that.
If I see someone speeding hazardously, I will call the cops. If someone's smoking a joint and blowing the smoke with a clear disregard for the passive smoking he's causing other people around him(if he's around kids or an asthmatic), I'm calling the cops since he's a prick. If I see an underaged drinker that's clearly in a bad state and couldn't find his way back home, I'm calling the cops to help him or helping him myself if he's not too far from home. It's situational, and I think in this situation RMT needs to be out of the games that don't allow it.
RMT is escalating all the time and it needs to be stopped by law or by code. I gotta go work now.
Originally posted by baff What if you see someone speeding or smoking a joint. Or an underage drinker?
It's not the snitch's fault that you're breaking the law. I'm not familiar with British procedures, but I assume citizens have the right to lobby the legislature to modify laws they don't agree with.
Originally posted by baff I don't think RMT compares to burglary on the scale of evils.
Oh I agree; it's common practice in law discussion to use extremes. I wouldn't place a Gold Farmer in the same class as a burglar.
Originally posted by baff In fact I don't think it ranks on the evil scale at all. It's not gold sellers fault the game is poorly made.
I'd argue that it's general player laziness, rather than poor game design that leads to Gold Selling. Take WoW, a recent article in Massive Magazine demonstrates how players can obtain their mount gold by level 28 with minimal grinding.
Btw, I think you'd enjoy reading theElectronic Frontier Foundation site. Good reading, and as a Libertarian, I mostly agree with them. ^_^
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I see nothing wrong with player laziness. If you wish to play your game lazily what's the problem?
It's common practise amongst fanatics and teenagers to discuss things in extremes. I prefer a more balanced approach.
Being a snitch is being a snitch. It's not a social skill I would adovcate. It means you are untrustworthy and don't value your friendships. Some things are more important than the law.
I'll check out that link in a mo. Hopefully it's as good as the last one.
Originally posted by Tamalan Anyone notice the irony of people spending large amounts of their time writing very long and involved posts about how they have to buy Gold... because they dont have the time to play as much as others?
Nope. I haven't seen anyone who buys gold post in this thread.
Originally posted by Babbuun 4. You have to have opinions, and the way to voice your opinions is to either play or not play the game or purchase or not purchase the game.
So put your money where your mouth is and stop playing. No one is stopping you. Use your voice. All I hear is you barking. Your argument has no teeth.
Comments
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
i voted no. coz those farmers are also earning a living.
Most farmers are from China. Life there is not as as good as america. The populations in china is hell lot higher than USA. So, finding a job is not easy.
Nowaday teenage wont work as real farmer ( as in plantation) , they have to find alternative way to earn a living.
Put yourself in their shoes, if you cant find a job for many months and someone hire you to farm gold, you will do it.
Which FF Character Are You?
Just because a few people do read the EULA doesn't mean anyone has to pay attention to it either.
I make the rules for my game. Me me me.
You, don't. If you wish to buy me a game and pay for the subscription then you can make the rules. Until then you will have no say. Nor should you have.
In my previous posts you will find all the pertaining laws regarding EULAs along with the case histories. I suggest you look them up if you wish to learn. You should start with torte law.
Taking on a multi gazillion dollar company is easy where I live and anywhere else in the EU. Since it is a criminal offence you just call the police, who arrest them and then the goverment prosecutes them on your behalf. If you complaint is civil only their numerous standards departments or the trade and industry department who will do it for you. There is no need to be run over roughshod by big business in this day and age.
The practicality of the matter is should an MMO ban you could simply return the game to shop for your full refund. (opened or unopened). They aren't allowed to ban you. You could have the shopkeeper arrested and perhaps even the MMO companies employee's. But most people are willing to settle for the refund. You can also cancel any credit card payments you have made with your CC company. They are contractually obliged to you. They cannot default on whimsy. The only thing you were obliged to do was pay them in legal tender.
If you're banned return the product and if you don't get your refund, bring them to court. Simple as that. If this is the case-specific law here. However, the playing field is set by the game developer, not you and not the RMT companies. The reason for your ban was justified, the EULA is the law of the MMO, and you shouldn't have been in the position to get banned in the first place... Are you saying that people with third party programs and hacks who get banned can sue as well? Of course they'd be arrested for the hacks and third party programs but they'd still get their money back from being banned?
You shouldn't disregard EULAs however. It's the rules you've agreed to abide by upon installment, no matter how faulty the system to uphold and police them is.
You should always disregard EULAs on principle. They are an attempt to defraud you of your legally held rights. Clicking "I agree" as part of your installation process should not be misconstrued as actual agreement. It is done so under duress. There are specific requirements that a contract must meet in order to be considered valid. A EULA does not meet very many of them.
The playing field is not set by the games company, it is set by parliament. The playing field in the EU is firmly weighted in favour of the consumer. As it should be.
RMT is legal. Any games company that bans you for RMT will lose in court. The Queen said it's O.K. and any company that operates here does so at her behest. This is also true anywhere in the EU or North America (minus the bit about the Queen of course if you are not British or Canadian).
Where I come from people don't sue. But yes if you are banned from hacks you can also get your game exchanged for a new one or refunded. You could have the retailer arrested but it would be pretty small minded.
You need to be smart like the Punkbuster people when it comes to banning, and not ban them from online play, but ban them from online play in PB protected servers. If the game says online play, then it must play online. They are not allowed to ban you. If it says online game on the box, it must be online, to be otherwise is a criminal offence. (Civil in the U.S.).
You should always disregard EULAs on principle. They are an attempt to defraud you of your legally held rights. Clicking "I agree" as part of your installation process should not be misconstrued as actual agreement. It is done so under duress. There are specific requirements that a contract must meet in order to be considered valid. A EULA does not meet very many of them.
The playing field is not set by the games company, it is set by parliament. The playing field in the EU is firmly weighted in favour of the consumer. As it should be.
RMT is legal. Any games company that bans you for RMT will lose in court. The Queen said it's O.K. and any company that operates here does so at her behest. This is also true anywhere in the EU or North America (minus the bit about the Queen of course if you are not British or Canadian).
Where I come from people don't sue. But yes if you are banned from hacks you can also get your game exchanged for a new one or refunded. You could have the retailer arrested but it would be pretty small minded.
You need to be smart like the Punkbuster people when it comes to banning, and not ban them from online play, but ban them from online play in PB protected servers. If the game says online play, then it must play online. They are not allowed to ban you. If it says online game on the box, it must be online, to be otherwise is a criminal offence. (Civil in the U.S.).
The games industry has had it's trouble with the law. The games industry suffers from a universal lack of respect. People abusing the games industry (aka you) think they're a bunch of pimpled nerds (your words not mine) and the people who are impartial to them consider them to be nerds as well, easy to trample on and not likely to revolt. Escapist nerds. The laws and decrees concerning the games industry have always been hazy, and with people outside the industry and the people who make the law clearly not interested, they will continue to be such.
I'm not saying certain rules and scams in the license agreements aren't ridiculous. However you, the consumer, should still not break their rules. Since you seem to have done your law research you should sue them about the illegal ones and then enjoy your game. If you decide to play the game, you DO abide by the rules of the game and the developers, the pimpled nerds that have brought you some sort of escapist enjoyment you think is momentarily enjoyable.
What if everyone decided to go haywire with every game? Everyone would be botting, hacking and abusing themselves to the top of the game, and the moderators would have little chance of stopping them.
If they're breaking the law, you report them. Otherwise you play by their rules.
In recent cases RMT companies have gotten more and more aggressive and criminal. In the recent WoW case, they're leeching customers and money from the game developer.
We just can't have people doing what they want when they want to, I thought that was apparent from the real world. Even you, the cheesy heavy metal song, should know this. You probably have some norms and some restrictions to what you will and will not do inside an MMO, however not everyone does, and if it's the universal attitude that people just shit on the work of pimple-faced nerds, games are going down real fast.
Have some respect for these people and MAYBE they'll start respecting you back. Now give me some spots to closed betas MMO companies please!
Blizzard publicly lauds the fact that they ban thousands of accounts for illegal activities, such as using exploits and gold farming. They do so under the terms set in the EULA.
If EULAs are so weak (legally speaking), I'd imagine that those prevented from playing wouldve taken action by now.
As I've stated previously, the Bnetd v. Blizzard case is one example where the EULA was used as part of the summary judgment.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I'm Here. I'm Awesome. Get Used To It.
It garners them a great deal of positive press and fan love from those opposed to the practice, and they also know that the vast majority of those accounts will pony up again for the retail purchase of the game as well as the next barrage of monthly fees. For the company, it's a win-win situation. For the farmer, it's just a part of their costs. Blizzard, especially, learned this lovely little cycle during their Battle.Net days.
They're not weak in terms of the actions they're allowed to take...that is to say, you break the rules they can terminate the contract of service. They are, however, not a matter of legality. That is to say, they are not going to be useful in a lawsuit. They in no way whatsoever constitute law, and thus there is no policing action government has to take in this, except where breach of service may be argued.
Bnetd reverse-engineered the binaries, and set up an emulation server. That is the cause of their loss of the judgement. It was not simply the EULA in violation.
I read the above quote as the Court expressingly stating the EULA prohibitted Bnetd from reverse engineering Battle.net.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I do whatever I please when I play MMO's. I've never been policed. I have never read any rules nor will I choose to abide by any but my own. I do not respect the authority of anyone in my employ over my own. Least of all a developer or publisher who's first priority is personal profit. How can anyone in such a position maintain clear and unbiased judgement? It's a service industry. Their job is to serve. Anything more is over and above their station.
Games developers code their game with improvements to defeat the abuse of their system. In WoW they have that nifty feature where people can enhance your stuff without you handing it over for example, and the game has built in anti-cheat that scans for third party hacks. This is the correct way to prevent abuse. Add a language filter option, an ignore button. These problems have been addressed technically and are actively updated. I require no moderation nor would I welcome it. Tools that allow me to moderate my game for myself however, to my own individual preferences, are must have features.
It's not just a case of people just doing what they want, it's also a case of people doing what they paid for. They pay to do what they want, and as far as humanly possible thats precisely what every single person on the planet should be allowed to do. Inside or outside the virtual world. People just doing what they want is the goal of every free society. We can have it and wherever possible we should.
Everybody just doing what you want or just doing what the dev's want however is something to be actively avoided.
If you wish to stop someone from doing something they want, you should have a pretty cast iron case for why and provide hard evidence. Opinion should never suffice. Especially if that something will take away their source of income. The gold sellers I have met have not exactly come from wealthy backgrounds.
The spotty games developers that I know don't seem very trampled on to me. They seem to be happy well paid folk doing a creative job they enjoy. I don't feel any need to protect them, neither do I see them suffering from an overwhelming disrespect. Quite the opposite, the job has a certain amount of kudos amongst the ranks of nerds.
I fail to see how gold sellers have leeched any customers or money from WoW. They are not in competition with Wow. People don't leave the game to subscribe to gold farming sites instead and Blizzard does not sell items, levelling or Gold, so they aren't taking any of their money. It's complimentry business, not competative.
I don't consider RMT to be in anyway abusive, or going haywire. I honestly couldn't care less how many people do it. RMT companies are most certainly not criminal, which is why they are able to maintain their sites and advertise online wihtout prosecution. I understand you don't like them, but they aren't breaking any laws. I think more companies should offer trade sites so that RMT can be conducted in an enviroment of confidence and trust, free from the uncertainty of being ripped off.
I'm not looking for the respect of the dev's. I couldn't care less if they respect me. I doubt they even know I exist. I respect games companies enough to pay for them. It's a commercial arrangement. I expect them to respect me enough to provide the goods agreed on. If they don't the deal is off.
I don't report people who break the law. Unless they are causing me trouble I can't resolve in a more suitable fashion. It is not my job to police the games industry nor my crusade. I don't feel I have to sue people to enjoy my games. Neither do I feel I have to ban people. I can't think of a single player in an MMO who I have thought needed to be banned.
I read the above quote as the Court expressingly stating the EULA prohibitted Bnetd from reverse engineering Battle.net.
But the court didn't go for that.
Blizzard even tried to get them for reverse engineering under the DCMA laws, despite that DCMA laws specifically don't apply to computer software.
The court didn't go for that either.
They ruled against Bnetd only on the interoperability exception.
EULA's and TOU were proposed, explained in detail and the court dismissed it. They ruled against Bnetd solely because their software didn't use the online cd key check which would allow non paying customers and pirates to play online and hence cost Blizzard money.
Have you played L2? I'm sure if you did, you would agree that Gold Farmers (or more appropriately the bots) can have a large impact in the game. Many others and myself left L2, tired of dealing with that situation.
Although not as common as it was in L2, Gold Farmers do have an impact in WoW. Server economies can be over inflated and there are several areas that are 'controlled' by the Farmers, such as Azshara.
This seems a little convenient. You're all for freedom, but once it impacts your game you'll side with the company and their rules.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I havent played L2 for long enough to notice it. I hear lots of reports the same as yours. Without further evidence I am inclined to believe it. WoW is much improved to this with almost all of the favoured drops in instances so that they can be camped by everyone online simultaneously. I've also heard of people complaining about mining bots in Eve.
Instancing is one of the technical advancements that Blizzard has made to resolve this problem. It's a very advanced peice of software. It has learnt from it's predecessors. This is the manner which I would encourage to defeat these issues, not impeaching decent people for doing nothing wrong.
.
As for the law, it is the system of last resort. Always.
No one likes a snitch.
The rule of law is a means to an ends not a goal in it's own right. Say no to totalitarianism.
The court ruled that By signing the TOUs and EULAs, Appellants expressly relinquished their rights to reverse engineer. Summary judgement on this issue was properly granted in favor of Blizzard and Vivendi.
The court was agreeing to a prior judgement of a lower court.
The Interoperability Exception was another portion of the Summary Judgement, it didn't exclude the above portion.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Oh c'mon now. If everyone respected laws in the first place, we wouldn't have to rely on 'snitches'. If I see someone breaking into your house, am I the evil 'snitch' for calling the police?
The same goes for MMOs, if players would respect the wishes (ie. rules) of the developers there wouldn't be a need for 'snitches'. If that were the case, most likely I'd still be enjoying my time in L2.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
The court ruled that By signing the TOUs and EULAs, Appellants expressly relinquished their rights to reverse engineer. Summary judgement on this issue was properly granted in favor of Blizzard and Vivendi.
The court was agreeing to a prior judgement of a lower court.
The Interoperability Exception was another portion of the Summary Judgement, it didn't exclude the above portion.
Boo. Your right and I'm wrong. Booo.
Thanks for that link and your insights. Always a pleasure to stand corrected and learn something new. This is a great case, right up my street.
They were prosecuted for breaking the EULA and TOU. EULAs and TOU are not completely legally buinding agreements, but in Louisiana elements of it are considered "enforceable". Specifically the parts refering to copying and reverse engineering. In this case it was the reverse engineering.
The waived their rights to fair use. That means they thought they would lose.
It will be intresting to see what they consider to be enforceable. I'll look it up and report back to you.
Oh c'mon now. If everyone respected laws in the first place, we wouldn't have to rely on 'snitches'. If I see someone breaking into your house, am I the evil 'snitch' for calling the police?
The same goes for MMOs, if players would respect the wishes (ie. rules) of the developers there wouldn't be a need for 'snitches'. If that were the case, most likely I'd still be enjoying my time in L2.
What if you see someone speeding or smoking a joint. Or an underage drinker?
I don't think RMT compares to burglary on the scale of evils. In afct I don't think it ranks on the evil scale at all. It's not gold sellers fault the game is poorly made.
1. I do whatever I please when I play MMO's. I've never been policed. I have never read any rules nor will I choose to abide by any but my own. I do not respect the authority of anyone in my employ over my own. Least of all a developer or publisher who's first priority is personal profit. How can anyone in such a position maintain clear and unbiased judgement? It's a service industry. Their job is to serve. Anything more is over and above their station.
2. Games developers code their game with improvements to defeat the abuse of their system. In WoW they have that nifty feature where people can enhance your stuff without you handing it over for example, and the game has built in anti-cheat that scans for third party hacks. This is the correct way to prevent abuse. Add a language filter option, an ignore button. These problems have been addressed technically and are actively updated. I require no moderation nor would I welcome it. Tools that allow me to moderate my game for myself however, to my own individual preferences, are must have features.
3.It's not just a case of people just doing what they want, it's also a case of people doing what they paid for. They pay to do what they want, and as far as humanly possible thats precisely what every single person on the planet should be allowed to do. Inside or outside the virtual world. People just doing what they want is the goal of every free society. We can have it and wherever possible we should.
4. Everybody just doing what you want or just doing what the dev's want however is something to be actively avoided.
5. If you wish to stop someone from doing something they want, you should have a pretty cast iron case for why and provide hard evidence. Opinion should never suffice. Especially if that something will take away their source of income. The gold sellers I have met have not exactly come from wealthy backgrounds.
6. The spotty games developers that I know don't seem very trampled on to me. They seem to be happy well paid folk doing a creative job they enjoy. I don't feel any need to protect them, neither do I see them suffering from an overwhelming disrespect. Quite the opposite, the job has a certain amount of kudos amongst the ranks of nerds.
7. I fail to see how gold sellers have leeched any customers or money from WoW. They are not in competition with Wow. People don't leave the game to subscribe to gold farming sites instead and Blizzard does not sell items, levelling or Gold, so they aren't taking any of their money. It's complimentry business, not competative.
8. I don't consider RMT to be in anyway abusive, or going haywire. I honestly couldn't care less how many people do it. RMT companies are most certainly not criminal, which is why they are able to maintain their sites and advertise online wihtout prosecution. I understand you don't like them, but they aren't breaking any laws. I think more companies should offer trade sites so that RMT can be conducted in an enviroment of confidence and trust, free from the uncertainty of being ripped off.
9. I'm not looking for the respect of the dev's. I couldn't care less if they respect me. I doubt they even know I exist. I respect games companies enough to pay for them. It's a commercial arrangement. I expect them to respect me enough to provide the goods agreed on. If they don't the deal is off.
10. I don't report people who break the law. Unless they are causing me trouble I can't resolve in a more suitable fashion. It is not my job to police the games industry nor my crusade. I don't feel I have to sue people to enjoy my games. Neither do I feel I have to ban people. I can't think of a single player in an MMO who I have thought needed to be banned.
I believe in people, and the ability to abide by certain norms of life,
not killing each other, not harming each other intentionally (I'm not
talking fits of rage, but premeditated, or continuous stuff), and being
able to pull your own weight. Not much to ask, is it?
1. You have a serious attitude problem here. Games are recreational fun, yes. However, when you go to a mini-golf course, do you have little china-men come rip out the obstacles by their nails and pivots and just putt hole-in-ones for you all the time? If you have a problem with a court, doesn't the court supervisor come and help you out as soon as possible? He doesn't lick your boots and give you a blowjob while at it, but he does try to help you with the problem you're facing. Also he wouldn't like weird people coming to his court and stealing another client's ball and club(7.) and giving them to you and you acting like they're rightfully yours since you paid the weird people.
2. What you're implying is that everyone in the real world should have chips in their heads to prevent them from violent behaviour as in games you should have code to block off any attempts at doing anything abusive. On one side you're going extremely nihilistically liberal with the thought that people should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want and on the other you say games should be coded to be foolproof(creating extremely small and restricted game worlds, at least for the next decade if it would start now). If you want an open-source game, go play an open-source game.
3. Customers pay to play by the rules provided, as with a karting track(you play by the rules or are kicked out). In the case of most MMOs they're not buying a program to make their own game, they're buying a ready-made game, and games and recreational activities are seldom without rules.
4. You have to have opinions, and the way to voice your opinions is to either play or not play the game or purchase or not purchase the game. That's your right as a consumer. Tampering with the product is unacceptable unless that is the nature of the product. Developers are not golden gods and they shouldn't lie to/cheat players. Why should players do any differently? It's called mutual respect.
5. Their backgrounds have nothing to do with anything. IF you think you're doing charity work by helping RMT companies you're pretty twisted. Go to Africa. Help a homeless person whenever you can (I know I do). Buying gold is telling these people they can rip off people in richer countries. In a lot of poor countries and with a lot of charities scamming is a huge problem. And scamming is what these people will do if you just give them space. They don't have much respect in general for recreational games nor companies. By these people I don't mean the little man, I mean their bosses, just to clarify that. Most poorer countries deserve our money and attention, but this is just negative attention.
6. So you think they have it all made and they sit in their chairs like golden gods in this department? To make a succesful and fun game is difficult. If someone makes a good game, he deserves my respect. If a group of people make and moderate a good game, they've deserved my respect. If a group of people make a good game and moderate it badly, I stop playing.
7. 8. Now obviously you're not familiar with what has been happening with WoW in the past months. Keylogger scams that take over and steal the gold and items from players. This has been, for the large part, intentional and premeditated money scamming for RMT companies.
Now you might say the players had it coming with bad security measures and that eploiting people is so much fun when they're unaware of being able to defend themselves. That's the sadist inside you speaking. My advice is to turn this little voice off from time to time or learn to use it in an appropriate manner, like in martial arts, contact sports, or in special forums where people flame each other. Now you're thinking, "why the hell should I listen to what anyone says about my behaviour, as a matter of fact why should I listen to anyone or anything, I do whatever I like". That's the nihilist/anarchist inside you speaking. My advice is to tone this voice down too, since it would make for real bad living if everyone thought this way. Learn to use this voice appropriately, start debating as a hobby and defend things that are impossible to defend.
9. By respect I mean they'd do a better job if people weren't buying/hacking/scamming all the time. You can't make a completely foolproof game, but you can have enough character to not exploit the loopholes.
10. Are you intentionally trying to shed a bad light on people who defend RMT? If so you've made a great post.
Oh c'mon now. If everyone respected laws in the first place, we wouldn't have to rely on 'snitches'. If I see someone breaking into your house, am I the evil 'snitch' for calling the police?
The same goes for MMOs, if players would respect the wishes (ie. rules) of the developers there wouldn't be a need for 'snitches'. If that were the case, most likely I'd still be enjoying my time in L2.
What if you see someone speeding or smoking a joint. Or an underage drinker?
I don't think RMT compares to burglary on the scale of evils. In afct I don't think it ranks on the evil scale at all. It's not gold sellers fault the game is poorly made.
Ah I see. You're bitter. You think you could make a better game than what's currently available? You don't have to defend RMT for that.
If I see someone speeding hazardously, I will call the cops. If someone's smoking a joint and blowing the smoke with a clear disregard for the passive smoking he's causing other people around him(if he's around kids or an asthmatic), I'm calling the cops since he's a prick. If I see an underaged drinker that's clearly in a bad state and couldn't find his way back home, I'm calling the cops to help him or helping him myself if he's not too far from home. It's situational, and I think in this situation RMT needs to be out of the games that don't allow it.
RMT is escalating all the time and it needs to be stopped by law or by code. I gotta go work now.
It's not the snitch's fault that you're breaking the law. I'm not familiar with British procedures, but I assume citizens have the right to lobby the legislature to modify laws they don't agree with.
Oh I agree; it's common practice in law discussion to use extremes. I wouldn't place a Gold Farmer in the same class as a burglar.
I'd argue that it's general player laziness, rather than poor game design that leads to Gold Selling. Take WoW, a recent article in Massive Magazine demonstrates how players can obtain their mount gold by level 28 with minimal grinding.
Btw, I think you'd enjoy reading theElectronic Frontier Foundation site. Good reading, and as a Libertarian, I mostly agree with them. ^_^
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I see nothing wrong with player laziness. If you wish to play your game lazily what's the problem?
It's common practise amongst fanatics and teenagers to discuss things in extremes. I prefer a more balanced approach.
Being a snitch is being a snitch. It's not a social skill I would adovcate. It means you are untrustworthy and don't value your friendships. Some things are more important than the law.
I'll check out that link in a mo. Hopefully it's as good as the last one.
Nope. I haven't seen anyone who buys gold post in this thread.
So put your money where your mouth is and stop playing. No one is stopping you. Use your voice. All I hear is you barking. Your argument has no teeth.