I quit L2 when I was a 59 Orc Shaman. Reasons included: bad lag during castle seiges, frequent random gankings by bored little boys, grammar school-like playground politics, simple-minded, annoying quests, farmers and bots camping everything valuable 24/7, and a community that was so dumb that there's nothing to compare them too.
That was more than two years ago. You mean to tell me that L2 has gotten 100% better than I recall it? Why can't I believe that? Only the other day, a former clanmate of mine whose younger brother is playing the game now told me that certain tech issues have been fixed but that playing the game is just like it always was. He's only an observer now, of course, but he was a level 50+ healer before he quit so it's not as if he has no clue about what he is observing.
I'll grant you this: the ability to pk anyone anywhere outside of cities was great, especially when you killed a loudmouth who had it coming, but the abuse of this feature by bored kiddies sucked. I recall one server where players had organized a guild they called The Red Army. Almost everyone was permanently red (your name tag glows red after you kill someone indicating that you can be attacked by players who aren't red and not be penalized for it) and their task was to clear dungeons and other valuable spots of gold farmers who literally had gangs of players in all of these places. And, this is all that they did. they never attacked legit players, But regular players wouldn't stop killing the Red Army guys, so after a while they said screw it and disbanded.
If you have read, yes you said you played more than 2 years ago, then that was C1 or even earlier.
Since C2, no more noob killing.
As for simple minded, annoying quests, isn't that the same in ALL MMOs? WOW, EQ2, SRO, etc. etc. same old boring stupid moron quests. At least L2 does not force you to do these so called quests for leveling up.
Lag during Siege? I didn't lag that bad. It's totally client side related. Also turn the graphic settings to the lowest during the siege will help a lot. And 2 years ago right? Shouldn't you having a much better PC by now?
It's the best community enriching, policital, clan vs. clan, alliance vs alliance game I have ever experienced and am still experiencing.
I'm definitly in no position to judge lineage 2 community as I've never played it but the things you list that make the community so good for you are things that I dislike in a community. I detest politics outside of games and want nothing to do with it in my spare time when looking for fun. I'd guess the things you list are more appealing for people heavily into PvPer and so the community is only great for players that want to be heavily into it as well .... which is fair enough for a game that focuses on it like lineage 2 but it does mean that te community that is great to you could still be very poor to someone else.
A month or two of L2 is HARDLY enough time to get to know why alot of people like L2. Sure learn the game fundamentals in L2 in about a month no problem, I believe you. (FUNDAMENTALS=BASICS). You can learn just about ANY MMORPG game's pattern in about 1 or 2 months. ALSO since you've stated you've played 6 games(MMO?) I'm pretty sure you know the general patterns of MANY MMOs. It's mostly how games DESGUISE these patterns to make them more "less grinding". Just look at any MMORPG. kill--> exp --> money --> gear--> quests --->pvp --->back to step 1. So what's left? unrestricted social community/politics. we don't play because we know the BASICS of a game. We play because of the possibilities and the open politics/pvp. I woud give L2 at least 5 months to get into the community, then you have a 50% chance of getting into what we like. I say 5 months because people don't actually start "trusting or accepting" you if you've only played a month or two. Choose a good clan that is active, that's probably the biggest factor.
I've played over 12+ MMO's for a month or more over the past 4 years and yes I do know the patterns and yes I can figure out a game fairly easy because of this in a relative little amount of time. But lets take a closer look at why I choose other games over L2.
Overabundance of Bots- Sure, other games have gold farmers and such, but I have NEVER seen them myself and definitely did not see a train of player characters (all bots) farming. It's not that there are bots in the game, it is because there are so many that you can't go a day without seeing a few a day. In other games, I swear I seen zero bots the whole time I played. Maybe they were better disguised? Maybe, but what I don't know doesn't effect my views.
Nasty community- You say it takes several months to get into the community in L2. That may be so, but if the community isn't nice to the newbs at the beginning, what reason is there to stick it out to the end? Especially when you can play Shadowbane, which is the same sort of game, but better in my opinion and be accepted into the community in your first week. Yes, I found a mature and helpful guild in one week in Shadowbane. In the other MMO's I played, it never took me a week to find a mature and helpful guild to join. In L2, at least in january, if you ask for a mature and helpful guild, people just call you a newb, tell you to stfu, and maybe a halfway decent person might tell you to wait until you are 40+ before they will even look at you.
You're right, I play these games for their community, the simulated politics and the player ran economy and player made/ran cities. In L2 you can run a city, but you can't build one up like in Shadowbane and in SWG. That is the immersion I am after. L2 would be 10x a better game if you could actually build the cities yourself and siege and destroy them completely. I also like more character customization in my game, which L2 lacked.
Now, I will say that L2 has the best artwork (not graphics) that I have ever seen in an online game. I give them props for that, but they clearly attracted the Chinese farmers and asshat PvPers as well. I am more of a RPer than a PvPer. I PvP when I have to (basically to defend myself, my city, its property, friends, and when I am helping take another city).
So, maybe deep down in L2 there is a good community, but the game mechanics (hard grind, lack of customization, easy to bot in) make it undesirable to get there. At least for a 20 hourish a week gamer like myself.
That sentence made no sense at all. In Lineage 2, it takes a good 8 months ~ year for a player to reach level 75. So they sure enjoyed and played the game for a long time for a "game that sucks so bad". I'm sure the fact that its in human nature to get bored of things over time has nothing to do with it /sarcasm.
You don't know much about online gaming then. People play games that they think suck and they are bored with all the time. A person may like it in the beginning and something ticks them off to make them quit later on, such as a nerf, increase in bad community, or another game that makes them see how bad the one they are playing is.
But yeah, I had one person give me several hundred thousand adena, and a nice bow, which I sold for adena. I then split that adena with an in-game friend and baught myself top newb gear and then top D-grade gear. Then I was broke and didn't have any money for soulshots.
No you don't. L2 is NOT like WOW. WOW = the same since the beginning to the end with nothing different. Which you can learn about WOW in a short amount of time. In fact, L2 is nothing like most games. In most games they show you what they offer from the start, and L2 is opposite. While most games really have nothing to offer compare to L2.
L2 is not fun UNTIL you can get into Server Politics, Alliance Wars, large scaled Castle Sieges. They all require you to be in a well organized clan/alliance. And NO clan/alliance will ever accept a lowbie who played only a month while thinking he knows everything already. Not a chance. You know nothing, and you have seen nothing.
What ever you say man. I have played games with Castle Sieges, server politics, alliance wars and more in other online games. L2 isn't the only game like that. So by playing other games like that, all I had to see is how the community, the grind and the game mechanics were compared to others and then decide whether or not it is better than the other game in all the things as described above.
Both DAoC and Shadowbane has what you describe and I didn't have to wait more than a week to find a mature and helpful guild, willing to show me the ropes. Those games I had fun right from the start, and didn't have to grind for 3 months to get there. With my playing time, it would have taken me 3 months to get to a worthwhile level in L2.
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by Jazia
No you don't. L2 is NOT like WOW. WOW = the same since the beginning to the end with nothing different. Which you can learn about WOW in a short amount of time. In fact, L2 is nothing like most games. In most games they show you what they offer from the start, and L2 is opposite. While most games really have nothing to offer compare to L2.
L2 is not fun UNTIL you can get into Server Politics, Alliance Wars, large scaled Castle Sieges. They all require you to be in a well organized clan/alliance. And NO clan/alliance will ever accept a lowbie who played only a month while thinking he knows everything already. Not a chance. You know nothing, and you have seen nothing.
What ever you say man. I have played games with Castle Sieges, server politics, alliance wars and more in other online games. L2 isn't the only game like that. So by playing other games like that, all I had to see is how the community, the grind and the game mechanics were compared to others and then decide whether or not it is better than the other game in all the things as described above.
Both DAoC and Shadowbane has what you describe and I didn't have to wait more than a week to find a mature and helpful guild, willing to show me the ropes. Those games I had fun right from the start, and didn't have to grind for 3 months to get there. With my playing time, it would have taken me 3 months to get to a worthwhile level in L2.
DAOC is based on RvsR and has zero clan politics. server politics are rare.not many games have anything like it.
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by Gameloading That sentence made no sense at all. In Lineage 2, it takes a good 8 months ~ year for a player to reach level 75. So they sure enjoyed and played the game for a long time for a "game that sucks so bad". I'm sure the fact that its in human nature to get bored of things over time has nothing to do with it /sarcasm.
You don't know much about online gaming then. People play games that they think suck and they are bored with all the time. A person may like it in the beginning and something ticks them off to make them quit later on, such as a nerf, increase in bad community, or another game that makes them see how bad the one they are playing is.
But yeah, I had one person give me several hundred thousand adena, and a nice bow, which I sold for adena. I then split that adena with an in-game friend and baught myself top newb gear and then top D-grade gear. Then I was broke and didn't have any money for soulshots.
Sir, if you are out of discussion material, then it is better to keep quiet. you are saying that people with multiple lvl 75, so basicly a rough 2 years of playing, which is 24 x 15$= $360 for a game they don't even ENJOY? come now. they would have quit long ago. it seems its you who needs to learn a thing or two about online gaming. when people stop enjoying a game, they QUIT.
Originally posted by Gameloading Sir, if you are out of discussion material, then it is better to keep quiet. you are saying that people with multiple lvl 75, so basicly a rough 2 years of playing, which is 24 x 15$= $360 for a game they don't even ENJOY? come now. they would have quit long ago. it seems its you who needs to learn a thing or two about online gaming. when people stop enjoying a game, they QUIT.
stop making a fool out of yourself.
Oh yes, Gameloading knows all. There absolutely are no people that keep playing a game they are bored with. Let me let you in on a little secret then. I played DAOC for 3 years and then quit. After a while it got really boring and things that sucked in the game, that I looked over before, stood out like a sore thumb. Also, I deleted so many max levels that people thought I was crazy. I'm not the only person either. There are many SWG players that played the game fore years, and thought the game sucked, but kept playing because they were promised this or that by the Devs. People also don't respond well to nerfs on a class they worked hard to max out. When more than one nerf comes along, people will quit, even though they might have played the game for several years prior to it. L2 has had plenty of nerfs to classes. So, say what you want. But what I said happened. I don't make up shit, just to say it. I'm not a teenager and lying is not something I do.
Oh yes, Gameloading knows all. There absolutely are no people that keep playing a game they are bored with. Let me let you in on a little secret then. I played DAOC for 3 years and then quit. After a while it got really boring and things that sucked in the game, that I looked over before, stood out like a sore thumb. Also, I deleted so many max levels that people thought I was crazy. I'm not the only person either.
Oh yes, Gameloading knows all. There absolutely are no people that keep playing a game they are bored with. Let me let you in on a little secret then. I played DAOC for 3 years and then quit. After a while it got really boring and things that sucked in the game, that I looked over before, stood out like a sore thumb. Also, I deleted so many max levels that people thought I was crazy. I'm not the only person either.
There are many SWG players that played the game fore years, and thought the game sucked, but kept playing because they were promised this or that by the Devs. People also don't respond well to nerfs on a class they worked hard to max out. When more than one nerf comes along, people will quit, even though they might have played the game for several years prior to it. L2 has had plenty of nerfs to classes. So, say what you want. But what I said happened. I don't make up shit, just to say it. I'm not a teenager and lying is not something I do.
Originally posted by solareus Aden castle has been run by adena farmers every since it's first seige on all servers.
So you can take your f****** lineage 2 adena farming bulls*** back to korea where game ethics are so low that if you get a weapon and some stick figure mobs and xp , you will have over 1million people playing it , you know why .
Cause Korea is OVER POPULATED !!!!
So the result is if 1million koreans are playing something , that is the equivelant to about 500-1000 americans.
Aden castle has been run by adena farmers every since it's first seige on all servers. So you can take your f****** lineage 2 adena farming bulls*** back to korea where game ethics are so low that if you get a weapon and some stick figure mobs and xp , you will have over 1million people playing it , you know why .Cause Korea is OVER POPULATED !!!!So the result is if 1million koreans are playing something , that is the equivelant to about 500-1000 americans.gg and sthu about l2
Liar
First, there was rumor back in open beta which was around 3 years ago, people were saying farmers will take over castles.
THEN, the truth, UPON to THIS DAY, ALL castles are controlled by PLAYERS!
So basicly, you are either a Liar that made things up right out of your nose. Or you were a beta tester that over hearing that old rumor 3 years ago which NEVER happened.
And also, what is the point of controlling tax rate? Back in Beta and C1, everything was cheap. The tax incoming was HUGE compare to market prices. Now due to inflation and higher level gears, a single helmet can cost 150 million while even the Aden the capital city does not make more than 100 million every TWO weeks, and nobody can control Aden without a HUGE army. 100 million divided by 100 players that's 1 million EVERY TWO weeks. LIke it is a lot of income??? Average players can make 1 million a day just from grinding without getting any item drop. Not to mention a single Siege can cost 30 million+ to just upgrade the Gate and hiring mercenaries!!! So give me a break you Noob + liar!
Originally posted by Shadrak the farmers are PLAYERS the players are FARMERS. YOU are a FOOL. You have done nothing but turn people off to the L2 Community in this thread/ Good Job
You have done nothing but showing off your ignorant and terrible lying ability.
When I say players, I mean the characters controlled by the people who play for fun. Farmers are NOT players. Thus when I said ALL castles are under control of players that means they are under control of REAL players. Not some farming morons trying to make irl money.
You know it yourself that your latest post was just a mindless post trying to prove L2 is bad. While you can't even name a single FARMER clan/alliance that controls a castle. After all, you can't name anything in L2 becaus you never really played it.
Originally posted by binary_0011 Originally posted by solareus I cannot repeat this enough.
DO NOT BUY INTO NCSOFT, IT ONLY ENCOURAGES THEM TO CONTINUE THIS CORRUPT GAME ATMOSPHERE !!!!!
you sound like 7 yrs old.
NCsoft is one of the only companies I will support. I subscribe to CoH/Cov and Auto Assault. I also play Guild Wars and buy the expansions. I Support them because I find the games fun and I want more. That is all I need to know NCsoft is one of the only companies I will support. I subscribe to CoH/Cov and Auto Assault. I also play Guild Wars and buy the expansions. I Support them because I find the games fun and I want more. That is all I need to know
Originally posted by solareusI cannot repeat this enough. DO NOT BUY INTO NCSOFT, IT ONLY ENCOURAGES THEM TO CONTINUE THIS CORRUPT GAME ATMOSPHERE !!!!!
you sound like 7 yrs old. NCsoft is one of the only companies I will support. I subscribe to CoH/Cov and Auto Assault. I also play Guild Wars and buy the expansions. I Support them because I find the games fun and I want more. That is all I need to know
NCsoft is one of the only companies I will support. I subscribe to CoH/Cov and Auto Assault. I also play Guild Wars and buy the expansions. I Support them because I find the games fun and I want more. That is all I need to know
So the 20 to 30 bot train around aden castle really don't exist ? wow dude you are the biggest tard , you belong in Lineage2 , cause it is for suckers just like yourself .
For your information, there is 0 mob outside Aden Castle. All bots farm on mobs for gold, not the grass outside Castle.
Originally posted by solareusDenile is a river in egypt ?Why are some many brainwashed , I was like these fools but like neo , I was awaken....
Name a single FARMER clan/alliance that ever controlled a castle in L2. I bet next post you will make up a clan/alliance name right out of your ear and point it as a "farmer clan controls a castle". WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE LIKE YOU PERFER BEING A Liar? And you know you are lying! Pathetic!!!
Lightsword / magicsword alliance which got bopoted from bartz by the player base fed up of them ,then they moved to gustin to continethere b/.s having farm bases on all lineage 2 servers .
Once again, Mr. Liar.
There is NEVER a clan on Bartz name Lightsword/magicsword that controlled any castle. In fact, I have never heard of them.
There is a complete history of each server. And any experienced players can tell the history. If I wasn't playing on Bartz, you might have got me. Too bad, I was there since Closed Bete.
Please tell me which castle they owned??? And when????
Comments
If you have read, yes you said you played more than 2 years ago, then that was C1 or even earlier.
Since C2, no more noob killing.
As for simple minded, annoying quests, isn't that the same in ALL MMOs? WOW, EQ2, SRO, etc. etc. same old boring stupid moron quests. At least L2 does not force you to do these so called quests for leveling up.
Lag during Siege? I didn't lag that bad. It's totally client side related. Also turn the graphic settings to the lowest during the siege will help a lot. And 2 years ago right? Shouldn't you having a much better PC by now?
Which FF Character Are You?
I've played over 12+ MMO's for a month or more over the past 4 years and yes I do know the patterns and yes I can figure out a game fairly easy because of this in a relative little amount of time. But lets take a closer look at why I choose other games over L2.
Overabundance of Bots- Sure, other games have gold farmers and such, but I have NEVER seen them myself and definitely did not see a train of player characters (all bots) farming. It's not that there are bots in the game, it is because there are so many that you can't go a day without seeing a few a day. In other games, I swear I seen zero bots the whole time I played. Maybe they were better disguised? Maybe, but what I don't know doesn't effect my views.
Nasty community- You say it takes several months to get into the community in L2. That may be so, but if the community isn't nice to the newbs at the beginning, what reason is there to stick it out to the end? Especially when you can play Shadowbane, which is the same sort of game, but better in my opinion and be accepted into the community in your first week. Yes, I found a mature and helpful guild in one week in Shadowbane. In the other MMO's I played, it never took me a week to find a mature and helpful guild to join. In L2, at least in january, if you ask for a mature and helpful guild, people just call you a newb, tell you to stfu, and maybe a halfway decent person might tell you to wait until you are 40+ before they will even look at you.
You're right, I play these games for their community, the simulated politics and the player ran economy and player made/ran cities. In L2 you can run a city, but you can't build one up like in Shadowbane and in SWG. That is the immersion I am after. L2 would be 10x a better game if you could actually build the cities yourself and siege and destroy them completely. I also like more character customization in my game, which L2 lacked.
Now, I will say that L2 has the best artwork (not graphics) that I have ever seen in an online game. I give them props for that, but they clearly attracted the Chinese farmers and asshat PvPers as well. I am more of a RPer than a PvPer. I PvP when I have to (basically to defend myself, my city, its property, friends, and when I am helping take another city).
So, maybe deep down in L2 there is a good community, but the game mechanics (hard grind, lack of customization, easy to bot in) make it undesirable to get there. At least for a 20 hourish a week gamer like myself.
You don't know much about online gaming then. People play games that they think suck and they are bored with all the time. A person may like it in the beginning and something ticks them off to make them quit later on, such as a nerf, increase in bad community, or another game that makes them see how bad the one they are playing is.
But yeah, I had one person give me several hundred thousand adena, and a nice bow, which I sold for adena. I then split that adena with an in-game friend and baught myself top newb gear and then top D-grade gear. Then I was broke and didn't have any money for soulshots.
What ever you say man. I have played games with Castle Sieges, server politics, alliance wars and more in other online games. L2 isn't the only game like that. So by playing other games like that, all I had to see is how the community, the grind and the game mechanics were compared to others and then decide whether or not it is better than the other game in all the things as described above.
Both DAoC and Shadowbane has what you describe and I didn't have to wait more than a week to find a mature and helpful guild, willing to show me the ropes. Those games I had fun right from the start, and didn't have to grind for 3 months to get there. With my playing time, it would have taken me 3 months to get to a worthwhile level in L2.
What ever you say man. I have played games with Castle Sieges, server politics, alliance wars and more in other online games. L2 isn't the only game like that. So by playing other games like that, all I had to see is how the community, the grind and the game mechanics were compared to others and then decide whether or not it is better than the other game in all the things as described above.
Both DAoC and Shadowbane has what you describe and I didn't have to wait more than a week to find a mature and helpful guild, willing to show me the ropes. Those games I had fun right from the start, and didn't have to grind for 3 months to get there. With my playing time, it would have taken me 3 months to get to a worthwhile level in L2.
DAOC is based on RvsR and has zero clan politics. server politics are rare.not many games have anything like it.
You don't know much about online gaming then. People play games that they think suck and they are bored with all the time. A person may like it in the beginning and something ticks them off to make them quit later on, such as a nerf, increase in bad community, or another game that makes them see how bad the one they are playing is.
But yeah, I had one person give me several hundred thousand adena, and a nice bow, which I sold for adena. I then split that adena with an in-game friend and baught myself top newb gear and then top D-grade gear. Then I was broke and didn't have any money for soulshots.
Sir, if you are out of discussion material, then it is better to keep quiet. you are saying that people with multiple lvl 75, so basicly a rough 2 years of playing, which is 24 x 15$= $360 for a game they don't even ENJOY? come now. they would have quit long ago. it seems its you who needs to learn a thing or two about online gaming. when people stop enjoying a game, they QUIT.
stop making a fool out of yourself.
Oh yes, Gameloading knows all. There absolutely are no people that keep playing a game they are bored with. Let me let you in on a little secret then. I played DAOC for 3 years and then quit. After a while it got really boring and things that sucked in the game, that I looked over before, stood out like a sore thumb. Also, I deleted so many max levels that people thought I was crazy. I'm not the only person either.Oh yes, Gameloading knows all. There absolutely are no people that keep playing a game they are bored with. Let me let you in on a little secret then. I played DAOC for 3 years and then quit. After a while it got really boring and things that sucked in the game, that I looked over before, stood out like a sore thumb. Also, I deleted so many max levels that people thought I was crazy. I'm not the only person either.
There are many SWG players that played the game fore years, and thought the game sucked, but kept playing because they were promised this or that by the Devs. People also don't respond well to nerfs on a class they worked hard to max out. When more than one nerf comes along, people will quit, even though they might have played the game for several years prior to it. L2 has had plenty of nerfs to classes. So, say what you want. But what I said happened. I don't make up shit, just to say it. I'm not a teenager and lying is not something I do.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
He is once again lying.
He is once again lying.
He does seem a bit unstable.
Liar
First, there was rumor back in open beta which was around 3 years ago, people were saying farmers will take over castles.
THEN, the truth, UPON to THIS DAY, ALL castles are controlled by PLAYERS!
So basicly, you are either a Liar that made things up right out of your nose. Or you were a beta tester that over hearing that old rumor 3 years ago which NEVER happened.
And also, what is the point of controlling tax rate? Back in Beta and C1, everything was cheap. The tax incoming was HUGE compare to market prices. Now due to inflation and higher level gears, a single helmet can cost 150 million while even the Aden the capital city does not make more than 100 million every TWO weeks, and nobody can control Aden without a HUGE army. 100 million divided by 100 players that's 1 million EVERY TWO weeks. LIke it is a lot of income??? Average players can make 1 million a day just from grinding without getting any item drop. Not to mention a single Siege can cost 30 million+ to just upgrade the Gate and hiring mercenaries!!! So give me a break you Noob + liar!
You have done nothing but showing off your ignorant and terrible lying ability.
When I say players, I mean the characters controlled by the people who play for fun. Farmers are NOT players. Thus when I said ALL castles are under control of players that means they are under control of REAL players. Not some farming morons trying to make irl money.
You know it yourself that your latest post was just a mindless post trying to prove L2 is bad. While you can't even name a single FARMER clan/alliance that controls a castle. After all, you can't name anything in L2 becaus you never really played it.
you sound like 7 yrs old.
NCsoft is one of the only companies I will support. I subscribe to CoH/Cov and Auto Assault. I also play Guild Wars and buy the expansions. I Support them because I find the games fun and I want more. That is all I need to know
NCsoft is one of the only companies I will support. I subscribe to CoH/Cov and Auto Assault. I also play Guild Wars and buy the expansions. I Support them because I find the games fun and I want more. That is all I need to know
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
Name a single FARMER clan/alliance that ever controlled a castle in L2.
I bet next post you will make up a clan/alliance name right out of your ear and point it as a "farmer clan controls a castle".
WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE LIKE YOU PERFER BEING A Liar? And you know you are lying! Pathetic!!!
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
For your information, there is 0 mob outside Aden Castle. All bots farm on mobs for gold, not the grass outside Castle.
You pathetic Liar
Once again, Mr. Liar.
There is NEVER a clan on Bartz name Lightsword/magicsword that controlled any castle. In fact, I have never heard of them.
There is a complete history of each server. And any experienced players can tell the history. If I wasn't playing on Bartz, you might have got me. Too bad, I was there since Closed Bete.
Please tell me which castle they owned??? And when????
(waiting for more of your lies)