Hmm - away for 12 hours and this post seems to have grown quite fast. A few responses of my own:
Tamalan - agree 100%. This is very much a result of different gaming cultures clashing. Like yourself, I come from a pencil and paper background where such things would not be tolerated.
I also wonder if this is a result of different ethnic cultures interacting. American attitudes to making and spending money tend to be different to european attitudes, and I wouldn't be surprised if americans are more likely to support gold farming. Not certain on this point though and there are probably representatives of both cultures on either side.
Razorback made a good point about hacked accounts being common in UO. News to me, since I started playing MMOs long after the heyday of ultima online, so it's difficult for me to understand how times were different back then. Nonetheless, I have a very strong suspicion that the recent spate of thefts is linked to gold buying, partly due to the rapid growth in the number of victims, and partly because the gold sellers would appear to have the most clear (financial) incentive.
JMoney asked:
We have two players, Player A and Player B. Player A has no job and plays a game for 5 hours a day, Player B has a job and can only play 5 hours a week.
Player A farms 100 gold a week.
Player B buys 100 gold a week.
WHy does Player B's gold ruin the economy but Player A's does not?
I know there were several attempts to answer this, but in my opinion many of them were poor, so I will have a go myself:
JMoney considers a very small system, with only two players. Lets instead extend the model and add a different person player C. Player C plays for enjoyment, and doesn't go out of his way to farm. He also doesn't buy gold. He earns 30 gold a week.
We shall also assume that if player B doesn't buy gold, then, since he either has little time, is lazy, or is just plain stupid, he only earns 10gp per week (the first two explanations are those many gold buyers have used on this or other threads).
Player A finds an item which he doesn't need. Perhaps it isn't appropriate for his class. He puts it on the auction house for 50gp. Both players B and C want this item so much they will spend all their gold to get it.
In the case where player B buys gold, then he spends the 50gp and takes the item.
But if player B isn't allowed to buy gold then he cannot afford to buy the item. In order to make a sale, player A must lower the price. He tries 40gp - no takers. Then he lowers it to 30gp. Player C snaps it up and walks away happy.
By examining this small system we can see two effects farming has:
i) Inflation - without farming the item went for 30gp, with farming 50gp
ii) Player C, a non-gold buyer, suffers. If there were no farmers he would have received quite a nice item. With farmers present it went to someone else.
Originally posted by baff A EULA that is illegal is not wrong to break.
Can you please site the case law that establishes MMOG EULAs as illegal.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Tamalan Im going to forward a little hypothesis here on why some approve of buying gold, and some dont. Im probably completely wrong, but its worth a shot.
I think it depends on your gaming background. Take a player who comes from a roleplaying past, he will have played Pen and Paper/Table Top Warhammer style games, an 'old school' player if you like. Back handing your DM some folding cash to shortcut your game or get you that extra special weapon would not be tolerated, and would get you shunned by your gaming group. This style of player entering the online RPG world will obviously find gold selling/buying go completely against the grain of his gaming ethos.
Now take the player who enters MMO's from a FPS route. Mods, hacks, macro's are a huge part of the FPS scene and as long as they dont give too huge an advantage they are accepted and even encouraged by the playerbase. Obviously a player from this background will have no real beef with gold selling/buying.
The bigger the game's subscription numbers, the more likely these two players will meet. They will never agree. They have 'cut their teeth' on two very different playstyles and philosophies.
Im an old school player, I find buying gold to be out and out 'cheating', but i can recognise how a player with a FPS background will be totally bemused at my standpoint.
All i can suggest is pick your MMO of choice wisely
I don't buy into this one at all. Cheats are not accepted or encouraged in the FPs scene.
I see it as two types of people. He who has a enough free time and he who does not. One spends his time "earning his gold". The other spends his time earning £. They are both able to play the same game as equals if money rich, time poor geezer buys some gold.
I don't see buying gold as anymore cheating than being given it. The effect on the game is the same. Have you never given some one gold? has no one ever given any to you? Do you feel this ruins the game for other players?
What about when one of your alts transfers money to his noob toon for his max level? Does this ruin the game for everyone or destroy the economy? In my opinion at worst it ruins the game for the player that does it. Which in my opinion is a matter between them and them alone.
Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by baff A EULA that is illegal is not wrong to break.
Can you please site the case law that establishes MMOG EULAs as illegal.
More to the point can you show me any law or act of parliament which says it is legal?
Some parts of EULA's are legal. But not all. Post me a specific EULA and we can dissect which parts are legal and which are not. The actual EULA itself has no basis in law whatsoever. It is a legal disclaimer made by a video games company not an act of parliament.
A EULA is not a legally binding contract. Contract law prohibits any agreement made in this way to be binding. It has no basis in law. For example, If a EULA says you are not allowed to make and sell copies of this game, it is not because you agreed to the EULA that this is true, it is because of Copywright law, while if a EULa says you may not make copies for your own use, or may only use one copy per computer you own, it is meaningless.
In the U.K. the legality of any Eula is covered by the Unfair contract act, which is adopted throughout the EU and mirrored by U.S. Fair Use Policy. In korea, judges specifically ruled that MMO accounts and the items owned by any character are the private property of the user. The MMO company merely hosts them for you for a fee.
In the U.S. Licenses often say that the buyer does not buy the software but instead pays for the right to use the software. In the US, the first sale doctrine, Softman Vs Adobe and Novell. Inc Vs CPU Distrib. Inc ruled that software sales are purchases, not licenses, and resale, including unbundling, is lawful regardless of a contractual prohibition
The Games company owns the copywright to the game code, not to the characters created on it. Similarly any email you wrote on Outlook Express and any story you wrote on Word do not belong to Microsoft. You not only own the in game items you possess, but you own the intellectual property right to any character you created. It is yours, not as many publishers would prefer you to believe, theirs.
2.For me it means the staff can offer unbiased reviews of any mmo released or upcoming.Lets face it currency sellers could care less about a positive or negative review.Currency sellers KNOW that someone will always be there to buy their product.
3.If mmorpg.com were to stop the gold sellers ads the 1st review of a game that wasnt up to par with players that got a positive review what would happen?
The players who frequent this site would scream "sellout".
Get used to it folks you cant stop the law of supply and demand only the devs can do this.Look at the korean games that have item stores.Has anyone ever seen any 3rd party gold sellers advertising for these games?
I have said it before and ill say it again:In the next 1 to 5 years we will be buying ingame currency and items.It is more profitable and a better business model.
Need an example?Project Entropia
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by baff A EULA that is illegal is not wrong to break.
Can you please site the case law that establishes MMOG EULAs as illegal.
More to the point can you show me any law or act of parliament which says it is legal?
I knew you were going to come back with this statement.
I never suggested EULAs were legally binding. That has never been my argument. You however have claimed that they are illegal, the burdon of proof lies with you.
The EULA is simply a set of rules establsihed by the game developers, and everyone collectively agrees to them every time they log into the game. Those that don't are obviously liars. Now you may fancy being a liar as a positive thing, I do not.
The fact remains that wether you agree with the reasons numerous people have stated, how gold selling ruins the game, the rules are clear, and if you don't abide by them, you are being selfish and disregarding what the majority want and expect.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Tuxedo45 Let's say that I want to farm on the same spot as a said GoldFarmer, who is not playing the game but abusing it, I won't be able due to his presence, this ruins my gaming experience. If this GF was not played 24/7 on the very same spot I may have the opportunity to play on this spot, because nobondy plays 24/7 so we could split the spot. At some point GFs are occupying all viable spots in the game and then become the unique providers of some ressources and their impact on economy is huge, they will shift the economy at their own profit, disregarding "natural" market laws. This is not only theory this is also known facts in some games outthere. PS: There's also the fact that most of GFs are working in insane conditions in thirld world countries, maybe before buying gold you would like to consider that, like for the latest Nike shoes...
How can you tell stated gold farmer is a gold seller and not someone saving 800 gold for his flying mount? You can't. You are just P.O. that someone has taken your spot. Why is wrong for another person to wish to farm gold in the same spot you wished to farm gold? It isn't.
Your best made plans have been thwarted by someone with the same idea as you. You need someone to blame, to take it out on and gold farmers are an easy target.
It's the same in Counterstrike when someone kills you 7 times in a row and you never saw them. In your frustration it is easier to call someone a cheat than adapt you playstyle to include those of the other players.
If you can't handle social interaction and competiton perhaps multiplayer games are not for you.
Originally posted by JMoney95 Originally posted by hedgewan As if a EULA infraction isnt enough. As for the other parts, ok, there are probably 1000s of impacts, I dont want carpel tunnel so I will just list a few.
5. You arent there for someone who may benefit from your abilities, like if you can 'rez' or repair or heal.
Few of those are interesting. 5,6 and 8 I've never seen before, intriguing they are,
5. A person with little free time who wishes to keep a character in the same powerbracket as his friends who have more freetime than him would benefit from your skills. This seems to me to be a bit of a friendless assumption. I game with not only people I meet in game, but with friends. They have extra game concerns in their life, in order for us all to stay paced buying gold or a pre levelled character is an effective tool. Not many of my friends have the same lifestyle but we all like to play together. It would be better for me if they could all join me at the same level of challange within the game. Rather than be relegated to a line in the chatroom while I actually play with someone else.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Tamalan Im going to forward a little hypothesis here on why some approve of buying gold, and some dont. Im probably completely wrong, but its worth a shot.
I think it depends on your gaming background. Take a player who comes from a roleplaying past, he will have played Pen and Paper/Table Top Warhammer style games, an 'old school' player if you like. Back handing your DM some folding cash to shortcut your game or get you that extra special weapon would not be tolerated, and would get you shunned by your gaming group. This style of player entering the online RPG world will obviously find gold selling/buying go completely against the grain of his gaming ethos.
Now take the player who enters MMO's from a FPS route. Mods, hacks, macro's are a huge part of the FPS scene and as long as they dont give too huge an advantage they are accepted and even encouraged by the playerbase. Obviously a player from this background will have no real beef with gold selling/buying.
The bigger the game's subscription numbers, the more likely these two players will meet. They will never agree. They have 'cut their teeth' on two very different playstyles and philosophies.
Im an old school player, I find buying gold to be out and out 'cheating', but i can recognise how a player with a FPS background will be totally bemused at my standpoint.
All i can suggest is pick your MMO of choice wisely
I don't buy into this one at all. Cheats are not accepted or encouraged in the FPs scene.
I see it as two types of people. He who has a enough free time and he who does not. One spends his time "earning his gold". The other spends his time earning £. They are both able to play the same game as equals if money rich, time poor geezer buys some gold.
Right now I have the time and the money to be both these players. I could, if I chose to, buy online gold. I choose not to because of my 'gaming ethics', there have been may times in my life where work has stopped me being able to generate my own in-game cash, and i still didnt buy gold, again because of my gaming history.
I dont buy gold becasue i consider it 'cheating', I consider it cheating because of my gaming background, which was PnP D&D. So, in my case at least, my little theory does support itself.
If you truly believe hacks and mods arent tolerated in FPS games, then you must live under a rock
Back when MMO's were a niche market, when the majority of MMO players came from a traditional PnP background, if you admitted to buying gold/items in a game such as early EQ, you would be ridiculed and laughed out of the game. But since games like WoW have come on the scene, attracting a playerbase from FPS and RTS backgrounds new to MMO's, suddenly its acceptable.
Neither is right or wrong, its a clash of playstyles and gaming perspective, in my opinion, due to MMO's suddenly becoming mainstream. EQ2 seems to have a part solution, set up seperate servers for people who want to buy and play that way, and leave other servers for those that dont. The other positive to this is if a 3rd party company is selling gold/items for a 'buyers' server, they are directly stealing revenue from the game company, and that game company can sue them into oblivion for doing so.
But im just a sad old gamer who believes in playing fair, so what the hell do i know
Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by baff A EULA that is illegal is not wrong to break.
Can you please site the case law that establishes MMOG EULAs as illegal.
More to the point can you show me any law or act of parliament which says it is legal?
I knew you were going to come back with this statement.
I never suggested EULAs were legally binding. That has never been my argument. You however have claimed that they are illegal, the burdon of proof lies with you.
The EULA is simply a set of rules establsihed by the game developers, and everyone collectively agrees to them every time they log into the game. Those that don't are obviously liars. Now you may fancy being a liar as a positive thing, I do not.
The fact remains that wether you agree with the reasons numerous people have stated, how gold selling ruins the game, the rules are clear, and if you don't abide by them, you are being selfish and disregarding what the majority want and expect.
I do not claim EULAs to be "illegal" only that they are not legally binding. I know of no law prohibiting a software company from including a EULA.
No one "agrees" to a EULA. Everyone clicks I accept because that's how you launch the game. Almost no one even reads them, let alone agrees to them.
Whether the game company likes it or not there are rules that supercede any they chose to make. Legally binding rules which they have no control over. Nor should they.
I don't mind being selfish and ignoring what the majority of people want or expect. The majority of people are fools. Unless they can convince me otherwise, (and I am open minded enough to have read every post in this thread), I ignore them. What the majority want or expect doesn't make something right or wrong. Most of my students don't want homework. In medieval times most people thought the world was flat.
What is perhaps more important than majority rule is the protection of the rights of minorities. Majority rule and the use of constant referendums in Germany for example saw the mass extermination of the Jews and lead to the largest war the world has ever seen. Just because there are a lot more selfish people out there than there are community minded people, is no excuse to pander to them.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, not the opinions of the many outweigh the opinions of the few.
Originally posted by Tamalan I dont buy gold becasue i consider it 'cheating', I consider it cheating because of my gaming background, which was PnP D&D. So, in my case at least, my little theory does support itself.
If you truly believe hacks and mods arent tolerated in FPS games, then you must live under a rock
Then I truely live under a rock. How many games with Punkbuster as an option have many servers that don't use it? Answer: none.
FPS games and their players make a deliberate and concerted effort to stop cheating, and the population of Punkbuster servers Vs the population of non-Punkbuster servers will give you some idea to which type players prefer.
In your PnP games, when you died and had to re-roll to continue playing the adventure with your friends.....did your DM allow you to start at the same level as the rest of your party, or did he despite everyone else being level 10, force you to begin again at level 1?
Originally posted by Puoltry A # of things happen by having ads on this site:
1.It remains free.
2.For me it means the staff can offer unbiased reviews of any mmo released or upcoming.Lets face it currency sellers could care less about a positive or negative review.Currency sellers KNOW that someone will always be there to buy their product.
3.If mmorpg.com were to stop the gold sellers ads the 1st review of a game that wasnt up to par with players that got a positive review what would happen?
The players who frequent this site would scream "sellout".
Get used to it folks you cant stop the law of supply and demand only the devs can do this.Look at the korean games that have item stores.Has anyone ever seen any 3rd party gold sellers advertising for these games?
I have said it before and ill say it again:In the next 1 to 5 years we will be buying ingame currency and items.It is more profitable and a better business model.
Need an example?Project Entropia
1. The admin has already stated the site will remain free regardless of gold selling ads, please pay attention.
2. and 3. These points would only be true if MMORPG.com refused ads from all game developers which is currently not the case. Since you are not clamoring for this, this argument seems to be a red herring.
Project Entropia has fewer subscribers than most MMOGs that prohibit advantage selling and gold selling. Feel free to post Project Entropia's earnings last year to prove they are more profitable and thus a better business model.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by baff What is perhaps more important than majority rule is the protection of the rights of minorities. Majority rule and the use of constant referendums in Germany for example saw the mass extermination of the Jews and lead to the largest war the world has ever seen. Just because there are a lot more selfish people out there than there are community minded people, is no excuse to pander to them.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, not the opinions of the many outweigh the opinions of the few.
Jeez now I have heard it all, gold sellers/buyers are minorities that need to be protected from discrimination huh?
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Tamalan I dont buy gold becasue i consider it 'cheating', I consider it cheating because of my gaming background, which was PnP D&D. So, in my case at least, my little theory does support itself.
If you truly believe hacks and mods arent tolerated in FPS games, then you must live under a rock
Then I truely live under a rock. How many games with Punkbuster as an option have many servers that don't use it? Answer: none.
FPS games and their players make a deliberate and concerted effort to stop cheating, and the population of Punkbuster servers Vs the population of non-Punkbuster servers will give you some idea to which type players prefer.
In your PnP games, when you died and had to re-roll to continue playing the adventure with your friends.....did your DM allow you to start at the same level as the rest of your party, or did he despite everyone else being level 10, force you to begin again at level 1?
What and how the DM decided in such a situation was down to his playstyle, it wasnt affected by me bunging him a tenner!
More games should adopt the Mentor/Sidekick system CoX has, it takes away the 'I buy gold to keep up with my friends' excuse.
You obviously believe that someone with enough cash should be able to buy themselves out of any situation. I dont. We are never going to find a middle ground to meet upon
Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by baff What is perhaps more important than majority rule is the protection of the rights of minorities. Majority rule and the use of constant referendums in Germany for example saw the mass extermination of the Jews and lead to the largest war the world has ever seen. Just because there are a lot more selfish people out there than there are community minded people, is no excuse to pander to them.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, not the opinions of the many outweigh the opinions of the few.
Jeez now I have heard it all, gold sellers/buyers are minorities that need to be protected from discrimination huh?
Amazing isn't it. Unfortunately it is human nature to scapegoat minorities rather than face up to ones own limitations.
What and how the DM decided in such a situation was down to his playstyle, it wasnt affected by me bunging him a tenner!
More games should adopt the Mentor/Sidekick system CoX has, it takes away the 'I buy gold to keep up with my friends' excuse.
You obviously believe that someone with enough cash should be able to buy themselves out of any situation. I dont. We are never going to find a middle ground to meet upon
But tenner or no tenner, you didn't feel that not earning all your xp's and magic items for yourself ruined the game for your friends, did you?
So why should you feel different about it occouring in an MMORPG?
Since it's not your tenner being bunged, why should the £10 have any affect on your judgement? I thought you disagreed because artificially advancing your character was cheating, I didn't realise cheating is only cheating when you pay for it.
For you perhaps this as crusade against the wealthy. I see no difference in how gameplay is affected when a player recieves gold from another player. Whether I give him that gold or sell it him, the affect within the game is identical. If someone with enough money could buy himself out of any situation, I would be pleased for that person, not aggrieved that he was able to get out of a situation that I myself either couldn't or was unwilling to do.
I also like the Mentor Sidekick system in COX, I thought it excellent. Although replaying an old adventure with my friends is much less stimulting than all of us facing a new challenge together. Power levelling services were available and used in COX too.
I also like the Guild Wars method where you can just start at level 20.
Originally posted by baff A EULA that is illegal is not wrong to break. You are perfectly entitled in law to buy and sell your in game items. A EULA saying something does not make it right or wrong. I ignore any EULA full stop. It's nothing more than a gamers boogie man. A publishers attempt to make more money out of you buy fooling you out of your legally held consumer rights. Take note that many companies provide tools for extra game transactions. None of these games are famed for having ruined economies. Eve foe example is famed for having one of the best economies to be found in an MMO.
With the EULA it's not an issue of legality. If you don't agree to them or don't approve them then you shouldn't be hitting the accept button at the bottom. It's that simple.
It's not some neccesity in life, it's a video game. IF video games stop selling because of their business practices then they will change those practices.
Deciding to ignore something you agreed upon is as wrong as the EULA itself.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Clicking "I agree" is not any indication of acceptance or agreement, it is simply operation of the software.
There is no onus on the gamer to read and accept them in any way. Neither should there be. If a business is not willing to accept how it's products are going to be used, they are perfectly within their rights not to sell.
Originally posted by baff Clicking "I agree" is not any indication of acceptance or agreement, it is simply operation of the already paid for software. Any agreements I made were at the moment of purchase, not after. I agreed to do whatever I want with my own software. The retailer agreed to do whatever he wants with my money. There is no onus on the gamer to read and accept them in any way. Neither should there be. If a business is not willing to accept how it's products are going to be used, they are perfectly within their rights not to sell.
Sure, you can do whatever you want with the software. However when logging into their server you can either abide by what you agreed to go find someone's you can.
Sorry I just see this as yet another little loophole people use because they don't actually want to be inconvienanced. They just want to play their game so whatever they can use to justify getting in is acceptable.
If you can't agree to it, don't hit the button that says you do. Looking at it any other way is just kidding yourself. Your logic is completely backwards to me. It's their product, and you don't have to BUY it if you don't like it or their practices. They are not obligated to make sure you are happy to sell it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Tamalan Actually there were many occasions where I wasnt allowed to re-roll, and i had to sit out an adventure. This was based on an obviously out-dated ideal called 'playing by the rules'.If the DM allowed re-rolls, I rejoined the game. If he didnt, I helped run the game by playing 'NPC' characters and encounter characters.But the decision wasnt swayed by the contents of my wallet.
lol! I dunno, a few of my friends would have been happy to let me have whatever for a 10 spot if I had really wanted to try it I am fairly sure...
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Sure, you can do whatever you want with the software. However when logging into their server you can either abide by what you agreed to go find someone's you can.
Sorry I just see this as yet another little loophole people use because they don't actually want to be inconvienanced. They just want to play their game so whatever they can use to justify getting in is acceptable.
If you can't agree to it, don't hit the button that says you do. Looking at it any other way is just kidding yourself. Your logic is completely backwards to me. It's their product, and you don't have to BUY it if you don't like it or their practices. They are not obligated to make sure you are happy to sell it.
it was their product before they sold it. At the moment of financial transaction, it became MY product. My money became their money.
It's not someone elses server, it's mine. I rent it. They accept my money and they have legal obligations to me. On a free server, your opinion would have merit.
If you can't agree to how people are going to use your server, you are not obliged to rent it out.
Sure, you can do whatever you want with the software. However when logging into their server you can either abide by what you agreed to go find someone's you can. Sorry I just see this as yet another little loophole people use because they don't actually want to be inconvienanced. They just want to play their game so whatever they can use to justify getting in is acceptable. If you can't agree to it, don't hit the button that says you do. Looking at it any other way is just kidding yourself. Your logic is completely backwards to me. It's their product, and you don't have to BUY it if you don't like it or their practices. They are not obligated to make sure you are happy to sell it.
it was their product before they sold it. At the moment of financial transaction, it became MY product. My money became their money. It's not someone elses server, it's mine. I rent it. They accept my money and they have legal obligations to me. On a free server, your opinion would have merit. If you can't agree to how people are going to use your server, you are not obliged to rent it out.
That is the most rediculous backwards outlook I have ever heard. That is like saying you rent an apartment and ignore the lease because you don't agree with it. Tear the place up and do whatever you want regardless of who else lives there because you have you rights and be damned if anyone is going to infringe on what you want.
Every MMO has a EULA, it's no mystery. You may not be able to read it before you open the box but you know it's in there. Often you can research the product before you buy it and find your answers, or even contact the publisher for a copy if you are that concerned with it. Have you ever contacted a publisher to voice your opposition to some of the clauses? Somehow I doubt it.
Keep fooling yourself, you seem quite content with the little world you have created for yourself.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by baff What is perhaps more important than majority rule is the protection of the rights of minorities. Majority rule and the use of constant referendums in Germany for example saw the mass extermination of the Jews and lead to the largest war the world has ever seen. Just because there are a lot more selfish people out there than there are community minded people, is no excuse to pander to them.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, not the opinions of the many outweigh the opinions of the few. Jeez now I have heard it all, gold sellers/buyers are minorities that need to be protected from discrimination huh? Amazing isn't it. Unfortunately it is human nature to scapegoat minorities rather than face up to ones own limitations. I ROFL'd
Comments
Hmm - away for 12 hours and this post seems to have grown quite fast. A few responses of my own:
Tamalan - agree 100%. This is very much a result of different gaming cultures clashing. Like yourself, I come from a pencil and paper background where such things would not be tolerated.
I also wonder if this is a result of different ethnic cultures interacting. American attitudes to making and spending money tend to be different to european attitudes, and I wouldn't be surprised if americans are more likely to support gold farming. Not certain on this point though and there are probably representatives of both cultures on either side.
Razorback made a good point about hacked accounts being common in UO. News to me, since I started playing MMOs long after the heyday of ultima online, so it's difficult for me to understand how times were different back then. Nonetheless, I have a very strong suspicion that the recent spate of thefts is linked to gold buying, partly due to the rapid growth in the number of victims, and partly because the gold sellers would appear to have the most clear (financial) incentive.
JMoney asked:
Player A and Player B. Player A has no job and plays a game for 5 hours
a day, Player B has a job and can only play 5 hours a week.
Player A farms 100 gold a week.
Player B buys 100 gold a week.
WHy does Player B's gold ruin the economy but Player A's does not?
I know there were several attempts to answer this, but in my opinion many of them were poor, so I will have a go myself:
JMoney considers a very small system, with only two players. Lets instead extend the model and add a different person player C. Player C plays for enjoyment, and doesn't go out of his way to farm. He also doesn't buy gold. He earns 30 gold a week.We shall also assume that if player B doesn't buy gold, then, since he either has little time, is lazy, or is just plain stupid, he only earns 10gp per week (the first two explanations are those many gold buyers have used on this or other threads).
Player A finds an item which he doesn't need. Perhaps it isn't appropriate for his class. He puts it on the auction house for 50gp. Both players B and C want this item so much they will spend all their gold to get it.
In the case where player B buys gold, then he spends the 50gp and takes the item.
But if player B isn't allowed to buy gold then he cannot afford to buy the item. In order to make a sale, player A must lower the price. He tries 40gp - no takers. Then he lowers it to 30gp. Player C snaps it up and walks away happy.
By examining this small system we can see two effects farming has:
i) Inflation - without farming the item went for 30gp, with farming 50gp
ii) Player C, a non-gold buyer, suffers. If there were no farmers he would have received quite a nice item. With farmers present it went to someone else.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Can you please site the case law that establishes MMOG EULAs as illegal.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I don't buy into this one at all. Cheats are not accepted or encouraged in the FPs scene.
I see it as two types of people. He who has a enough free time and he who does not. One spends his time "earning his gold". The other spends his time earning £. They are both able to play the same game as equals if money rich, time poor geezer buys some gold.
I don't see buying gold as anymore cheating than being given it. The effect on the game is the same. Have you never given some one gold? has no one ever given any to you? Do you feel this ruins the game for other players?
What about when one of your alts transfers money to his noob toon for his max level? Does this ruin the game for everyone or destroy the economy? In my opinion at worst it ruins the game for the player that does it. Which in my opinion is a matter between them and them alone.
Can you please site the case law that establishes MMOG EULAs as illegal.
More to the point can you show me any law or act of parliament which says it is legal?
Some parts of EULA's are legal. But not all. Post me a specific EULA and we can dissect which parts are legal and which are not. The actual EULA itself has no basis in law whatsoever. It is a legal disclaimer made by a video games company not an act of parliament.
A EULA is not a legally binding contract. Contract law prohibits any agreement made in this way to be binding. It has no basis in law. For example, If a EULA says you are not allowed to make and sell copies of this game, it is not because you agreed to the EULA that this is true, it is because of Copywright law, while if a EULa says you may not make copies for your own use, or may only use one copy per computer you own, it is meaningless.
In the U.K. the legality of any Eula is covered by the Unfair contract act, which is adopted throughout the EU and mirrored by U.S. Fair Use Policy. In korea, judges specifically ruled that MMO accounts and the items owned by any character are the private property of the user. The MMO company merely hosts them for you for a fee.
In the U.S. Licenses often say that the buyer does not buy the software but instead pays for the right to use the software. In the US, the first sale doctrine, Softman Vs Adobe and Novell. Inc Vs CPU Distrib. Inc ruled that software sales are purchases, not licenses, and resale, including unbundling, is lawful regardless of a contractual prohibition
The Games company owns the copywright to the game code, not to the characters created on it. Similarly any email you wrote on Outlook Express and any story you wrote on Word do not belong to Microsoft. You not only own the in game items you possess, but you own the intellectual property right to any character you created. It is yours, not as many publishers would prefer you to believe, theirs.
1.It remains free.
2.For me it means the staff can offer unbiased reviews of any mmo released or upcoming.Lets face it currency sellers could care less about a positive or negative review.Currency sellers KNOW that someone will always be there to buy their product.
3.If mmorpg.com were to stop the gold sellers ads the 1st review of a game that wasnt up to par with players that got a positive review what would happen?
The players who frequent this site would scream "sellout".
Get used to it folks you cant stop the law of supply and demand only the devs can do this.Look at the korean games that have item stores.Has anyone ever seen any 3rd party gold sellers advertising for these games?
I have said it before and ill say it again:In the next 1 to 5 years we will be buying ingame currency and items.It is more profitable and a better business model.
Need an example?Project Entropia
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
Can you please site the case law that establishes MMOG EULAs as illegal.
More to the point can you show me any law or act of parliament which says it is legal?
I knew you were going to come back with this statement.
I never suggested EULAs were legally binding. That has never been my argument. You however have claimed that they are illegal, the burdon of proof lies with you.
The EULA is simply a set of rules establsihed by the game developers, and everyone collectively agrees to them every time they log into the game. Those that don't are obviously liars. Now you may fancy being a liar as a positive thing, I do not.
The fact remains that wether you agree with the reasons numerous people have stated, how gold selling ruins the game, the rules are clear, and if you don't abide by them, you are being selfish and disregarding what the majority want and expect.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
How can you tell stated gold farmer is a gold seller and not someone saving 800 gold for his flying mount? You can't. You are just P.O. that someone has taken your spot. Why is wrong for another person to wish to farm gold in the same spot you wished to farm gold? It isn't.
Your best made plans have been thwarted by someone with the same idea as you. You need someone to blame, to take it out on and gold farmers are an easy target.
It's the same in Counterstrike when someone kills you 7 times in a row and you never saw them. In your frustration it is easier to call someone a cheat than adapt you playstyle to include those of the other players.
If you can't handle social interaction and competiton perhaps multiplayer games are not for you.
Being a gold farmer is O.K.
Few of those are interesting. 5,6 and 8 I've never seen before, intriguing they are,
#10 is money $$
5. A person with little free time who wishes to keep a character in the same powerbracket as his friends who have more freetime than him would benefit from your skills. This seems to me to be a bit of a friendless assumption. I game with not only people I meet in game, but with friends. They have extra game concerns in their life, in order for us all to stay paced buying gold or a pre levelled character is an effective tool. Not many of my friends have the same lifestyle but we all like to play together. It would be better for me if they could all join me at the same level of challange within the game. Rather than be relegated to a line in the chatroom while I actually play with someone else.
I don't buy into this one at all. Cheats are not accepted or encouraged in the FPs scene.
I see it as two types of people. He who has a enough free time and he who does not. One spends his time "earning his gold". The other spends his time earning £. They are both able to play the same game as equals if money rich, time poor geezer buys some gold.
Right now I have the time and the money to be both these players. I could, if I chose to, buy online gold. I choose not to because of my 'gaming ethics', there have been may times in my life where work has stopped me being able to generate my own in-game cash, and i still didnt buy gold, again because of my gaming history.
I dont buy gold becasue i consider it 'cheating', I consider it cheating because of my gaming background, which was PnP D&D. So, in my case at least, my little theory does support itself.
If you truly believe hacks and mods arent tolerated in FPS games, then you must live under a rock
Back when MMO's were a niche market, when the majority of MMO players came from a traditional PnP background, if you admitted to buying gold/items in a game such as early EQ, you would be ridiculed and laughed out of the game. But since games like WoW have come on the scene, attracting a playerbase from FPS and RTS backgrounds new to MMO's, suddenly its acceptable.
Neither is right or wrong, its a clash of playstyles and gaming perspective, in my opinion, due to MMO's suddenly becoming mainstream. EQ2 seems to have a part solution, set up seperate servers for people who want to buy and play that way, and leave other servers for those that dont. The other positive to this is if a 3rd party company is selling gold/items for a 'buyers' server, they are directly stealing revenue from the game company, and that game company can sue them into oblivion for doing so.
But im just a sad old gamer who believes in playing fair, so what the hell do i know
Can you please site the case law that establishes MMOG EULAs as illegal.
More to the point can you show me any law or act of parliament which says it is legal?
I knew you were going to come back with this statement.
I never suggested EULAs were legally binding. That has never been my argument. You however have claimed that they are illegal, the burdon of proof lies with you.
The EULA is simply a set of rules establsihed by the game developers, and everyone collectively agrees to them every time they log into the game. Those that don't are obviously liars. Now you may fancy being a liar as a positive thing, I do not.
The fact remains that wether you agree with the reasons numerous people have stated, how gold selling ruins the game, the rules are clear, and if you don't abide by them, you are being selfish and disregarding what the majority want and expect.
I do not claim EULAs to be "illegal" only that they are not legally binding. I know of no law prohibiting a software company from including a EULA.
No one "agrees" to a EULA. Everyone clicks I accept because that's how you launch the game. Almost no one even reads them, let alone agrees to them.
Whether the game company likes it or not there are rules that supercede any they chose to make. Legally binding rules which they have no control over. Nor should they.
I don't mind being selfish and ignoring what the majority of people want or expect. The majority of people are fools. Unless they can convince me otherwise, (and I am open minded enough to have read every post in this thread), I ignore them. What the majority want or expect doesn't make something right or wrong. Most of my students don't want homework. In medieval times most people thought the world was flat.
What is perhaps more important than majority rule is the protection of the rights of minorities. Majority rule and the use of constant referendums in Germany for example saw the mass extermination of the Jews and lead to the largest war the world has ever seen. Just because there are a lot more selfish people out there than there are community minded people, is no excuse to pander to them.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, not the opinions of the many outweigh the opinions of the few.
Then I truely live under a rock. How many games with Punkbuster as an option have many servers that don't use it? Answer: none.
FPS games and their players make a deliberate and concerted effort to stop cheating, and the population of Punkbuster servers Vs the population of non-Punkbuster servers will give you some idea to which type players prefer.
In your PnP games, when you died and had to re-roll to continue playing the adventure with your friends.....did your DM allow you to start at the same level as the rest of your party, or did he despite everyone else being level 10, force you to begin again at level 1?
1. The admin has already stated the site will remain free regardless of gold selling ads, please pay attention.
2. and 3. These points would only be true if MMORPG.com refused ads from all game developers which is currently not the case. Since you are not clamoring for this, this argument seems to be a red herring.
Project Entropia has fewer subscribers than most MMOGs that prohibit advantage selling and gold selling. Feel free to post Project Entropia's earnings last year to prove they are more profitable and thus a better business model.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, not the opinions of the many outweigh the opinions of the few.
Jeez now I have heard it all, gold sellers/buyers are minorities that need to be protected from discrimination huh?
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
--Baclimon--
www.starfleetguild.com
Then I truely live under a rock. How many games with Punkbuster as an option have many servers that don't use it? Answer: none.
FPS games and their players make a deliberate and concerted effort to stop cheating, and the population of Punkbuster servers Vs the population of non-Punkbuster servers will give you some idea to which type players prefer.
In your PnP games, when you died and had to re-roll to continue playing the adventure with your friends.....did your DM allow you to start at the same level as the rest of your party, or did he despite everyone else being level 10, force you to begin again at level 1?
What and how the DM decided in such a situation was down to his playstyle, it wasnt affected by me bunging him a tenner!
More games should adopt the Mentor/Sidekick system CoX has, it takes away the 'I buy gold to keep up with my friends' excuse.
You obviously believe that someone with enough cash should be able to buy themselves out of any situation. I dont. We are never going to find a middle ground to meet upon
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, not the opinions of the many outweigh the opinions of the few.
Jeez now I have heard it all, gold sellers/buyers are minorities that need to be protected from discrimination huh?
Amazing isn't it. Unfortunately it is human nature to scapegoat minorities rather than face up to ones own limitations.
What and how the DM decided in such a situation was down to his playstyle, it wasnt affected by me bunging him a tenner!
More games should adopt the Mentor/Sidekick system CoX has, it takes away the 'I buy gold to keep up with my friends' excuse.
You obviously believe that someone with enough cash should be able to buy themselves out of any situation. I dont. We are never going to find a middle ground to meet upon
But tenner or no tenner, you didn't feel that not earning all your xp's and magic items for yourself ruined the game for your friends, did you?
So why should you feel different about it occouring in an MMORPG?
Since it's not your tenner being bunged, why should the £10 have any affect on your judgement? I thought you disagreed because artificially advancing your character was cheating, I didn't realise cheating is only cheating when you pay for it.
For you perhaps this as crusade against the wealthy. I see no difference in how gameplay is affected when a player recieves gold from another player. Whether I give him that gold or sell it him, the affect within the game is identical. If someone with enough money could buy himself out of any situation, I would be pleased for that person, not aggrieved that he was able to get out of a situation that I myself either couldn't or was unwilling to do.
I also like the Mentor Sidekick system in COX, I thought it excellent. Although replaying an old adventure with my friends is much less stimulting than all of us facing a new challenge together. Power levelling services were available and used in COX too.
I also like the Guild Wars method where you can just start at level 20.
With the EULA it's not an issue of legality. If you don't agree to them or don't approve them then you shouldn't be hitting the accept button at the bottom. It's that simple.
It's not some neccesity in life, it's a video game. IF video games stop selling because of their business practices then they will change those practices.
Deciding to ignore something you agreed upon is as wrong as the EULA itself.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Clicking "I agree" is not any indication of acceptance or agreement, it is simply operation of the software.
There is no onus on the gamer to read and accept them in any way. Neither should there be. If a business is not willing to accept how it's products are going to be used, they are perfectly within their rights not to sell.
Agreements are made prior to any sale. Not after.
Sure, you can do whatever you want with the software. However when logging into their server you can either abide by what you agreed to go find someone's you can.
Sorry I just see this as yet another little loophole people use because they don't actually want to be inconvienanced. They just want to play their game so whatever they can use to justify getting in is acceptable.
If you can't agree to it, don't hit the button that says you do. Looking at it any other way is just kidding yourself. Your logic is completely backwards to me. It's their product, and you don't have to BUY it if you don't like it or their practices. They are not obligated to make sure you are happy to sell it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Actually there were many occasions where I wasnt allowed to re-roll, and i had to sit out an adventure.
This was based on an obviously out-dated ideal called 'playing by the rules'.
If the DM allowed re-rolls, I rejoined the game. If he didnt, I helped run the game by playing 'NPC' characters and encounter characters.
But the decision wasnt swayed by the contents of my wallet.
lol! I dunno, a few of my friends would have been happy to let me have whatever for a 10 spot if I had really wanted to try it I am fairly sure...
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Sure, you can do whatever you want with the software. However when logging into their server you can either abide by what you agreed to go find someone's you can.
Sorry I just see this as yet another little loophole people use because they don't actually want to be inconvienanced. They just want to play their game so whatever they can use to justify getting in is acceptable.
If you can't agree to it, don't hit the button that says you do. Looking at it any other way is just kidding yourself. Your logic is completely backwards to me. It's their product, and you don't have to BUY it if you don't like it or their practices. They are not obligated to make sure you are happy to sell it.
it was their product before they sold it. At the moment of financial transaction, it became MY product. My money became their money.
It's not someone elses server, it's mine. I rent it. They accept my money and they have legal obligations to me. On a free server, your opinion would have merit.
If you can't agree to how people are going to use your server, you are not obliged to rent it out.
That is the most rediculous backwards outlook I have ever heard. That is like saying you rent an apartment and ignore the lease because you don't agree with it. Tear the place up and do whatever you want regardless of who else lives there because you have you rights and be damned if anyone is going to infringe on what you want.
Every MMO has a EULA, it's no mystery. You may not be able to read it before you open the box but you know it's in there. Often you can research the product before you buy it and find your answers, or even contact the publisher for a copy if you are that concerned with it. Have you ever contacted a publisher to voice your opposition to some of the clauses? Somehow I doubt it.
Keep fooling yourself, you seem quite content with the little world you have created for yourself.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Jeez now I have heard it all, gold sellers/buyers are minorities that need to be protected from discrimination huh?
Amazing isn't it. Unfortunately it is human nature to scapegoat minorities rather than face up to ones own limitations.
I ROFL'd
this entire conversation is absurd
Buying/Selling of in game stuff = WRONG
End of Story