I think Im getting deja vue. Im sure Ive seen this thread at least 10 times since I started visiting off-topic. SO Ill save everybody the trouble and summarize;
1.) Religion is the root of all wars in this world; men use many groups to start wars (sometimes religious grps, sometimes political grps, sometimes socio-economic grps). And I dont buy that you are all so concerned about the crusades that you cant stomach religion.
2.) People use religion as a crutch becasue they are weak; Actually I feel it takes tireless amounts of effort, self discipline and retrospection (if you are really magnifying your religion). Im not saying all us religious people have those qualities but many of us are trying to get to that point.
3.) Believing in the bible and God is like believing in pink unicorns; Science and religion aren't nessecarily at odds.
4.) Religious people are self righteous pricks; Yup some of them are, but you can find pricks in any group of people.
5.) Religious people are mindless and dont think for themselves; My religion is very big on studying things out and deciding for yourself on the truth of things. Besides, Religion would be a tough cookie to mindlessly swallow. There are a lot of philosophies out there that preach a much more effortless approach to life.
But for the sake of argument, say I was a "Jesus drone" following all the laws that Jesus taught, why on earth would anyone have a problem with that? I mean what did Jesus teach that causes people to have such a low opinion, even fear of judeo/christain people?
Am I close? DId I get it all?
**ok and heres something that should keep this thread flaming**
I think the main reason people reject religion so aggressivly is because it is too distressing to think about what they would have to give up and change about themselves and their lifestyle if they believed God really does exist.
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
20 years ago, I got married in the Catholic church. Huge wedding, even had a few congressmen attend. Open bar for the wedding reception and a two week honeymoon on a ship cruising to the virgin islands and other areas.
10 years later, I went thru a divorce. Went pretty easy, even with three kids. Well, got all the papers signed and now I live by myself. Come to find out, according to the Catholic Church, I am still married!!!! My local church still sends me these packets to donate money addressed as Mr. and Mrs. Outfctrl.
I have to apply for an annulment thru the Pope or something and it costs like 500-800 dollars. Screw that. Sooo, I guess I will stay married. I can never marry again the in Catholic church unless I get that thing.
I guess its just fun to hate the majority group...with over 1 billion catholics on the world...
More realistically, people don't "hate" catholics, it's just that they think the Roman Catholic church is too conservative. If there were as many Greek/Russian Orthodox Christians as Catholic Christians, then it would be the Orthodox church everyone would be talking about..
Catholicism is the only kind of Christianity worth anything.
Protestants are all a bunch of brainwashed heresy-loving sheep who are completely out of touch with history and common sense. I recommend you study apologetics, so when people start hatin', you can put the smack down on them.
You, sir, actually have something worth defending here. Know this. Their religion was founded on a goddamn toilet.
Originally posted by cathuros Catholicism is the only kind of Christianity worth anything.
Protestants are all a bunch of brainwashed heresy-loving sheep who are completely out of touch with history and common sense. I recommend you study apologetics, so when people start hatin', you can put the smack down on them.
You, sir, actually have something worth defending here. Know this. Their religion was founded on a goddamn toilet.
Personally, I despise the word "Hate", it's so incredibly final. I really can't imagine hating anything, it sounds so exhausting... But anyways, my funny experience with the Catholic folk. I'm Wiccan, I was raised as such and it stuck.. meh, what can I say, it works for me but I certainly don't wear it on my sleeve or push it on people I know, it's just what helps me get through. My mother was an Elementalist Wiccan but she never steered us one way or the other, we learned about all religions and she encouraged us to go in the direction we felt made us whole as people and human beings and not just sheep, that could include or not include religion. Anyways, fast forward to now then rewind to about a year ago. We have small Wicca group here in Ottawa (where I live to go to school) but they're all good people and I really love everyone there, it's just good to meet with people you understand and share experiences with. They usualy have rites once a week, which I don't usually make but this one night was an exception, as we close out the evening and we're leaving the building well what do we see, a picket line in front of the building of about 50 people strong, compliments of the local Catholic innitative for young people. So basically we had kids, ages ranging from 15 to 20*something calling us heathens, witches and blassphamers! Hehe, it was pretty funny. At first they didn't really bother anyone, they just had their little picket signs accusing us of all sorts of silly things but then at some point a couple of children started getting a little over zealous, they get into a few peoples faces, yelling and screaming: We're going to hell this and God hates us that. Then, even as we just ingnored them are just wanted to get to our cars, they got in our way and refused to let us walk past. It was pretty scary actually. Long story short, the police got called and they were made to go back on the sidewalk and told to picket from there if they'd like and police made sure we were able to leave. So yeah, I'm not saying all this because I assume all Catholics think the same way or act on the same beliefs but let's be honest here, Catholics have a huge hate on for lots of people, maybe that's why some of it is started to get back their way. Three fold as they say .
Originally posted by shae Personally, I despise the word "Hate", it's so incredibly final. I really can't imagine hating anything, it sounds so exhausting... But anyways, my funny experience with the Catholic folk. I'm Wiccan, I was raised as such and it stuck.. meh, what can I say, it works for me but I certainly don't wear it on my sleeve or push it on people I know, it's just what helps me get through. My mother was an Elementalist Wiccan but she never steered us one way or the other, we learned about all religions and she encouraged us to go in the direction we felt made us whole as people and human beings and not just sheep, that could include or not include religion. Anyways, fast forward to now then rewind to about a year ago. We have small Wicca group here in Ottawa (where I live to go to school) but they're all good people and I really love everyone there, it's just good to meet with people you understand and share experiences with. They usualy have rites once a week, which I don't usually make but this one night was an exception, as we close out the evening and we're leaving the building well what do we see, a picket line in front of the building of about 50 people strong, compliments of the local Catholic innitative for young people. So basically we had kids, ages ranging from 15 to 20*something calling us heathens, witches and blassphamers! Hehe, it was pretty funny. At first they didn't really bother anyone, they just had their little picket signs accusing us of all sorts of silly things but then at some point a couple of children started getting a little over zealous, they get into a few peoples faces, yelling and screaming: We're going to hell this and God hates us that. Then, even as we just ingnored them are just wanted to get to our cars, they got in our way and refused to let us walk past. It was pretty scary actually. Long story short, the police got called and they were made to go back on the sidewalk and told to picket from there if they'd like and police made sure we were able to leave. So yeah, I'm not saying all this because I assume all Catholics think the same way or act on the same beliefs but let's be honest here, Catholics have a huge hate on for lots of people, maybe that's why some of it is started to get back their way. Three fold as they say .
I'm having totally different experiences with catholics in Europe (then again...I AM Catholic ). My mother was A Baptist, but converted to Catholicism because she felt they were spiritually closer to god. I know the parish i live in is very tolerant of other religions, and we fundraise for all kinds of things. Ranging from homeless people to AIDS suffering people in Africa.
I'm having totally different experiences with catholics in Europe (then again...I AM Catholic ). My mother was A Baptist, but converted to Catholicism because she felt they were spiritually closer to god. I know the parish i live in is very tolerant of other religions, and we fundraise for all kinds of things. Ranging from homeless people to AIDS suffering people in Africa.
Which is awesome to know and exactly why I said that I don't presume to say that all Catholics think and or act the sam way.
Originally posted by shae Originally posted by Meon I'm having totally different experiences with catholics in Europe (then again...I AM Catholic ). My mother was A Baptist, but converted to Catholicism because she felt they were spiritually closer to god. I know the parish i live in is very tolerant of other religions, and we fundraise for all kinds of things. Ranging from homeless people to AIDS suffering people in Africa.
Which is awesome to know and exactly why I said that I don't presume to say that all Catholics think and or act the sam way.
I was giving a different view. Didn't mean to be negative in any way
Originally posted by Meon I'm having totally different experiences with catholics in Europe (then again...I AM Catholic ). My mother was A Baptist, but converted to Catholicism because she felt they were spiritually closer to god. I know the parish i live in is very tolerant of other religions, and we fundraise for all kinds of things. Ranging from homeless people to AIDS suffering people in Africa.
Which is awesome to know and exactly why I said that I don't presume to say that all Catholics think and or act the sam way.
I was giving a different view. Didn't mean to be negative in any way
Nono... I didn't take it negatively at all, I was geuninely saying it's awesome to read things like that and just re-affirming your point that good experiences can be had and not just the one I described .
A word of advice: If you don't fully understand a religion, don't follow it.
Nah. I'd say just study it more. If you have problems with it in the future, then your choice is your choice. I'd still encourage you to keep on studying it whether you grow to accept or reject it.
As for people hating Catholics? It could be that they sit on huge amounts of wealth at the Vatican while Africans, who make up the largest Catholic population, starve to death ever day.
I'd say moreso the stereotypes. Opeth says that he doesn't understand much about his religion. Now I don't know what you (Opeth) consider to be much, but that to me is just another stereotype fulfilled. I have biases against Catholicism, yes. Some of it is probably bolstered by the amount of stereotypes I've seen on TV of gangsters with golden crosses hung around their necks who claim to be Catholic but don't know #### about their faith. Um... but something I do see is the amount of outside non-scriptural or non-biblical influence on Catholicism. That's what gets me the most. To me, if you're a Christian, then you're a Christian. But if you are a Christian, then it'd be good to put some of the Catholic ideas behind you I think - such as the Assumption of Mary, perhaps? Very shaky supposition to me as far as what I've read of the history of the Assumption, but maybe I've been fed the wrong info.
Then comes the publicity about child molestation.
Heh. Yeah. Another stereotype or generalization that gets at you but probably doesn't mean much if you examine what the religion actually teaches.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
I guess its just fun to hate the majority group...with over 1 billion catholics on the world...
More realistically, people don't "hate" catholics, it's just that they think the Roman Catholic church is too conservative. If there were as many Greek/Russian Orthodox Christians as Catholic Christians, then it would be the Orthodox church everyone would be talking about.
A lot of people hate them. Violently. Being conservative has nothing to do with it. It's a cycle of violence and it breeds hatred. Rival cultures who do not wish to co-operate.
Originally posted by cathuros Catholicism is the only kind of Christianity worth anything.
Protestants are all a bunch of brainwashed heresy-loving sheep who are completely out of touch with history and common sense. I recommend you study apologetics, so when people start hatin', you can put the smack down on them.
You, sir, actually have something worth defending here. Know this. Their religion was founded on a goddamn toilet.
Talking of history. The Anglican church (the largest protestant church) was founded in England. Most likely in the bedroom rather than on the toilet.
*Disclaimer: I haven't ready many of the other posts as I have no time in between decorating atm, just posting in my 'tea' break*
Ok, so first things first, I don't hate catholics. A lot of my friends are/were catholics, and I have no problem with that. What I hate is catholics who will not accept there are fundamental paradoxes in their religion that undermine the entirity of it.
I'm not going to list all of them, I'll just go with the main one which irritates me most - and irritated me even more while I was still Christian.
OK, so for Jesus to be the Messiah, he has to come directly from the line of David/Adam and Eve. (He would have had to come from Adam and Eve anyway to be born based on the creationism story, but aside from that :P). Jesus also has to be free from all sin, otherwise as he is a part of God, God is NOT all good. Sin is passed on from generation to generation (original sin this is). Mary must have had original sin, as she was conceived of man. Therefore, to be born of Mary is to be born of sin. To conclude, Jesus must have had original sin as he was born of Mary. I spoke to my local catholic bishop about this (after listening to one of his sermons and seething in the pews for his total arrogance). He simply said "Oh, well that seems like a good argument, until of course you remember that Mary was free of all sin." Upon asking "But then her parents, and their parents etc. etc. etc. must have been free of sin also, meaning that none of us are born of sin at all?", he responded angrily, "Clearly you do not understand, Mary was free of sin because God made it that way.".... "God made it that way."... If that was even written in the Bible it might carry the tiniest bit of clought... But as it is, it's the lamest excuse I've heard. I also made the point of most of the other paradoxes within Catholicism, and he always came back to this "Because that's what God did," excuse.... It also pisses me off that they won't accept that Mary was NOT/might not have been a virgin. It's long since been proven that the 'Virgin Mary' quote from the original Bible was a misunderstanding, where 'Virgin' actually meant 'Unmarried.'
Next thing that pisses me off about Catholicism is it's past, and traditions. Basically meaning the Papacy and the Vatican. The two most unhumane, senseless and really quite unchristian institutions I've heard of.
I could go on all day with things really, because there's a fair bit that irritates me, but I'll just make the one point. I HATE the Catholic church for this. I honestly would get involved with the whole Church burning thing if it would bring a stop to this:
Catholic missionarys/nuns sent to African/Third World countries to help prevent AIDS are actively undermining any efforts to help that part of the world. For those of you who don't know about this, on command from the Pope (and the last Pope also) the nuns visit tribes/towns and tell them that the only way to avoid AIDS is to pray to God and convert to catholicism, and (worst part, and I really hope they all go to hell for their part in this) they teach them that condoms actually GIVE them AIDS, and they should never use them. Just the thought of that makes me feel physically sick. Over 2 million people die in Sub-saharan Africa (more in other parts!) every year from AIDS, and that rate is on the increase. This orphans over 12 million infants every year. And what do the Catholics do in Jesus' name to help this? They tell them that AIDS will go away if they pray to their God, and actually promote the increase of AIDS... I really can't express how much this sickens me. I wouldn't condemn anyone to hell for an ordinary act, but anyone supporting this... I really hope to hear the screams of from the 7th circle of hell.
P.S. Don't claim to be in a religion you don't understand... It's not a good move... Learn about your religion, you may love it, or you may loathe it. It's soul-building.
Originally posted by Adreal Heh. Yeah. Another stereotype or generalization that gets at you but probably doesn't mean much if you examine what the religion actually teaches.
The Catholic ministry does in fact have an active system to protect their own under such charges in fact - from the testimony of an Ex-Catholic priest I know - so clearly it's not just a stereotype... Granted, i'm sure 90% of Catholic priests aren't molesting kids... But there's still that 10%...
The Catholic ministry does in fact have an active system to protect their own under such charges in fact - from the testimony of an Ex-Catholic priest I know - so clearly it's not just a stereotype... Granted, i'm sure 90% of Catholic priests aren't molesting kids... But there's still that 10%...
Well, I meant that if you study the religion, they probably don't have anything that they teach like, "Mollestation of small children is good. This you must do to get into heaven." So to use mollestation against Catholicism probably wouldn't turn over well. It wouldn't be logical. Now what you said above - I don't know whether it's true or not. I don't know what you mean by protection either. How would they protect them? Keep it a secret? Anyway, yes, that would pose a problem - to say the obvious.
Jesus also has to be free from all sin, otherwise as he is a part of God, God is NOT all good. Sin is passed on from generation to generation (original sin this is). Mary must have had original sin, as she was conceived of man. Therefore, to be born of Mary is to be born of sin. To conclude, Jesus must have had original sin as he was born of Mary.
Yeah, I've thought of this as well. But based on my beliefs, Jesus is not the Messiah if he had sin in him. But since we believe him to have risen from the grave and conquered death by the power of God in him, I think that it would be relatively safe to assume that he conquered sin as well because of God's power. In Genesis it speaks of Christ as being the seed of a woman - not the seed of man as most of the time the Bible speaks of the children of men. This seems to indicate that he would be born of a woman alone and his birth would have nothing to do with being born of a man. I'm fairly sure you could find other passages that would support the virgin birth if 'virgin' in this case was actually supposed to be translated as 'unwed.'
We all as human beings are born and die without God's intervention. Ultimate death is the price of sin. Christ died, but he did not die permanently. Therefore he conquered ultimate death and so I think we can say that he conquered sin since he did not have to pay its price in full by dying permanently. No human can do this because we are singular beings in this respect. When our bodies die, we cannot say, "Hey, death sucks. I think I'll resurrect myself," because we're dead. The only thing of Christ that died was his body. God still lived in him. I'm still not entirely sure whether Christ's body was blameless. His spirit was blameless though because his spirit was God's. I think I remember him answering the pharisees or some scribes or someone when they addressed him as "good teacher" by saying, "There is no one good but God." Don't take me for absolute on that without looking it up. Just something that I've been mulling over in my mind.
I do believe, though, that Mary had sin in her and that when she died her body remained dead and was not resurrected - not yet anyway.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Jesus also has to be free from all sin, otherwise as he is a part of God, God is NOT all good. Sin is passed on from generation to generation (original sin this is). Mary must have had original sin, as she was conceived of man. Therefore, to be born of Mary is to be born of sin. To conclude, Jesus must have had original sin as he was born of Mary.
If God created everything, he has to have some evil in him, too. So I think Jesus being born with original sin is just redundant. Besides, how the hell can you prove original sin?
Oh, and you need to calm down about the Catholic church. They are no worse than any other religion.
Same here. My parents tried to do that, it pissed me off. But, yeah, I couldn't care less what religion anybody has as long as it doesn't affect me.
Originally posted by shamall I have no problem with Catholics or any religeon as long as they don't try to push their beliefs on me. The bible thumping, frothing at the mouth shouting "YOUR GOING TO BURN IN HELL HEATHEN!!" ones pretty much make all the rest of them look bad.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Originally posted by modjoe86 Originally posted by Khuzarrz
Jesus also has to be free from all sin, otherwise as he is a part of God, God is NOT all good. Sin is passed on from generation to generation (original sin this is). Mary must have had original sin, as she was conceived of man. Therefore, to be born of Mary is to be born of sin. To conclude, Jesus must have had original sin as he was born of Mary.
If God created everything, he has to have some evil in him, too. So I think Jesus being born with original sin is just redundant. Besides, how the hell can you prove original sin?
Oh, and you need to calm down about the Catholic church. They are no worse than any other religion. Yes, just be glad that the Catholics aren't bloodthirsty fiends out to slaughter countless people. Oh, wait, I forgot about the Crusaders...
In order for God to be good, evil is a necessity. This means that for all we know God could have created evil just to make himself look good to us. Or maybe he is evil and created good. Either way, what is good and what is evil is only defined by the majority. Whatever benefits the majority is almost always looked on as "good", and whatever is detrimental to them is "evil". When you look at it this way, good and evil are simply figments of our imagination that we use to benefit ourselves, which means that God is neither good nor evil but simply is. But since I don't believe in the God that all of you believe in (because no two people believe in the same God), this really has no meaning.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Jesus also has to be free from all sin, otherwise as he is a part of God, God is NOT all good. Sin is passed on from generation to generation (original sin this is). Mary must have had original sin, as she was conceived of man. Therefore, to be born of Mary is to be born of sin. To conclude, Jesus must have had original sin as he was born of Mary.
If God created everything, he has to have some evil in him, too.
No. Research 'Theodicies' (Augustinian, Monist, Irenaeus, and the Free-Will Defence to name a few prominent ones). Explanations of God being the creator without being the creator of evil. Personally I combine two parts of Augustinian Theodicy, and Monist thinking to justify it myself - Augustinian Theodicy has a part that says "There is no evil, only absense of good" ('Privatio Bono' is the latin I believe...) and then the Monist argument that nothing is evil, evil is just an illusion based on us perceiving things from what good they do for us, rather than their universal goodness.
So I think Jesus being born with original sin is just redundant. Besides, how the hell can you prove original sin?
To use your phrase "The burden of proof lies on the one making the unsubstanciated claim." It's in their beliefs that original sin exists, not mine. (And they dont need to prove it either really - it's just a belief).
Oh, and you need to calm down about the Catholic church. They are no worse than any other religion.
I beg to differ. I do disagree fundamentally with all religion. But that's mainly based on the power I see catholicism exert as a religion. The Catholics, historically have abused their power a whole lot more than most other Classical religions in my view. Also, their approach to their own religion, to be honest, irritates me. A religion should make you joyful, not sorrowful and repentant.
In reading a lot of the bible I just can't find any place where Jesus says Peter is going to be a pope and start his church.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Originally posted by opeth313x I've seen a few posts about how arrogant Catholics can be. I'm Catholic, I don't understand much about my religion, so I can't really say I'm offended or not. Though I do see a lot of stereotypical posts being made about things relating to Religion. I really don't understand much about my religion at all, so I might not understand what you are talking about if you reply...
You're Catholic...and you like Opeth?
That is like Republicans liking the Dead Kennedys..
Originally posted by Khuzarrz Originally posted by modjoe86 Originally posted by Khuzarrz
Jesus also has to be free from all sin, otherwise as he is a part of God, God is NOT all good. Sin is passed on from generation to generation (original sin this is). Mary must have had original sin, as she was conceived of man. Therefore, to be born of Mary is to be born of sin. To conclude, Jesus must have had original sin as he was born of Mary.
If God created everything, he has to have some evil in him, too.
No. Research 'Theodicies' (Augustinian, Monist, Irenaeus, and the Free-Will Defence to name a few prominent ones). Explanations of God being the creator without being the creator of evil. Personally I combine two parts of Augustinian Theodicy, and Monist thinking to justify it myself - Augustinian Theodicy has a part that says "There is no evil, only absense of good" ('Privatio Bono' is the latin I believe...) and then the Monist argument that nothing is evil, evil is just an illusion based on us perceiving things from what good they do for us, rather than their universal goodness.
I've never bought into the idea of using men's logic to explain certain aspects of God, mainly because people say God's existence is one that defies logic. (As in, who created God?) Who is to say that my logic regarding good and evil is any more flawed than Augusitinian's?
So I think Jesus being born with original sin is just redundant. Besides, how the hell can you prove original sin?
To use your phrase "The burden of proof lies on the one making the unsubstanciated claim." It's in their beliefs that original sin exists, not mine. (And they dont need to prove it either really - it's just a belief).
Religion is a huge series of unsubstantiated claims. To say that just because there is no direct reference of it in the Bible is really proving or disproving its validity is a big stretch. Catholics believe in venial/mortal sins, which isn't directly in the Bible, but who cares? Faith defies logic, and faith can certainly defy something that was written thousands of years ago. How do you know the Catholics don't have it all right?
Oh, and you need to calm down about the Catholic church. They are no worse than any other religion.
I beg to differ. I do disagree fundamentally with all religion. But that's mainly based on the power I see catholicism exert as a religion. The Catholics, historically have abused their power a whole lot more than most other Classical religions in my view. Also, their approach to their own religion, to be honest, irritates me. A religion should make you joyful, not sorrowful and repentant.
Every single denomination on the face of the Earth is started to make cash, or fulfill some personal gain. The Catholics abuse their power, yes. Every other religion on Earth uses their influence to get what they want.
As for the religion making you feel sorrowful and repenant? Name some mainstream religions that don't. Lutherans? Yep. Methodists? Yep. Episcopalians? Yep. Greek Orth? Yep. Baptists? Yep. Church of Christ? Yep.
Comments
I think Im getting deja vue. Im sure Ive seen this thread at least 10 times since I started visiting off-topic. SO Ill save everybody the trouble and summarize;
1.) Religion is the root of all wars in this world; men use many groups to start wars (sometimes religious grps, sometimes political grps, sometimes socio-economic grps). And I dont buy that you are all so concerned about the crusades that you cant stomach religion.
2.) People use religion as a crutch becasue they are weak; Actually I feel it takes tireless amounts of effort, self discipline and retrospection (if you are really magnifying your religion). Im not saying all us religious people have those qualities but many of us are trying to get to that point.
3.) Believing in the bible and God is like believing in pink unicorns; Science and religion aren't nessecarily at odds.
4.) Religious people are self righteous pricks; Yup some of them are, but you can find pricks in any group of people.
5.) Religious people are mindless and dont think for themselves; My religion is very big on studying things out and deciding for yourself on the truth of things. Besides, Religion would be a tough cookie to mindlessly swallow. There are a lot of philosophies out there that preach a much more effortless approach to life.
But for the sake of argument, say I was a "Jesus drone" following all the laws that Jesus taught, why on earth would anyone have a problem with that? I mean what did Jesus teach that causes people to have such a low opinion, even fear of judeo/christain people?
Am I close? DId I get it all?
**ok and heres something that should keep this thread flaming**
I think the main reason people reject religion so aggressivly is because it is too distressing to think about what they would have to give up and change about themselves and their lifestyle if they believed God really does exist.
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
Check this story out.
20 years ago, I got married in the Catholic church. Huge wedding, even had a few congressmen attend. Open bar for the wedding reception and a two week honeymoon on a ship cruising to the virgin islands and other areas.
10 years later, I went thru a divorce. Went pretty easy, even with three kids. Well, got all the papers signed and now I live by myself. Come to find out, according to the Catholic Church, I am still married!!!! My local church still sends me these packets to donate money addressed as Mr. and Mrs. Outfctrl.
I have to apply for an annulment thru the Pope or something and it costs like 500-800 dollars. Screw that. Sooo, I guess I will stay married. I can never marry again the in Catholic church unless I get that thing.
I guess its just fun to hate the majority group...with over 1 billion catholics on the world...
More realistically, people don't "hate" catholics, it's just that they think the Roman Catholic church is too conservative.
If there were as many Greek/Russian Orthodox Christians as Catholic Christians, then it would be the Orthodox church everyone would be talking about..
Protestants are all a bunch of brainwashed heresy-loving sheep who are completely out of touch with history and common sense. I recommend you study apologetics, so when people start hatin', you can put the smack down on them.
You, sir, actually have something worth defending here. Know this. Their religion was founded on a goddamn toilet.
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Personally, I despise the word "Hate", it's so incredibly final. I really can't imagine hating anything, it sounds so exhausting...
But anyways, my funny experience with the Catholic folk.
I'm Wiccan, I was raised as such and it stuck.. meh, what can I say, it works for me but I certainly don't wear it on my sleeve or push it on people I know, it's just what helps me get through. My mother was an Elementalist Wiccan but she never steered us one way or the other, we learned about all religions and she encouraged us to go in the direction we felt made us whole as people and human beings and not just sheep, that could include or not include religion.
Anyways, fast forward to now then rewind to about a year ago. We have small Wicca group here in Ottawa (where I live to go to school) but they're all good people and I really love everyone there, it's just good to meet with people you understand and share experiences with. They usualy have rites once a week, which I don't usually make but this one night was an exception, as we close out the evening and we're leaving the building well what do we see, a picket line in front of the building of about 50 people strong, compliments of the local Catholic innitative for young people.
So basically we had kids, ages ranging from 15 to 20*something calling us heathens, witches and blassphamers! Hehe, it was pretty funny.
At first they didn't really bother anyone, they just had their little picket signs accusing us of all sorts of silly things but then at some point a couple of children started getting a little over zealous, they get into a few peoples faces, yelling and screaming: We're going to hell this and God hates us that. Then, even as we just ingnored them are just wanted to get to our cars, they got in our way and refused to let us walk past. It was pretty scary actually. Long story short, the police got called and they were made to go back on the sidewalk and told to picket from there if they'd like and police made sure we were able to leave.
So yeah, I'm not saying all this because I assume all Catholics think the same way or act on the same beliefs but let's be honest here, Catholics have a huge hate on for lots of people, maybe that's why some of it is started to get back their way.
Three fold as they say
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I'm having totally different experiences with catholics in Europe (then again...I AM Catholic
). My mother was A Baptist, but converted to Catholicism because she felt they were spiritually closer to god. I know the parish i live in is very tolerant of other religions, and we fundraise for all kinds of things. Ranging from homeless people to AIDS suffering people in Africa.
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I was giving a different view. Didn't mean to be negative in any way
I was giving a different view. Didn't mean to be negative in any way
Nono... I didn't take it negatively at all, I was geuninely saying it's awesome to read things like that and just re-affirming your point that good experiences can be had and not just the one I described
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A word of advice: If you don't fully understand a religion, don't follow it.
Nah. I'd say just study it more. If you have problems with it in the future, then your choice is your choice. I'd still encourage you to keep on studying it whether you grow to accept or reject it.
As for people hating Catholics? It could be that they sit on huge amounts of wealth at the Vatican while Africans, who make up the largest Catholic population, starve to death ever day.
I'd say moreso the stereotypes. Opeth says that he doesn't understand much about his religion. Now I don't know what you (Opeth) consider to be much, but that to me is just another stereotype fulfilled. I have biases against Catholicism, yes. Some of it is probably bolstered by the amount of stereotypes I've seen on TV of gangsters with golden crosses hung around their necks who claim to be Catholic but don't know #### about their faith. Um... but something I do see is the amount of outside non-scriptural or non-biblical influence on Catholicism. That's what gets me the most. To me, if you're a Christian, then you're a Christian. But if you are a Christian, then it'd be good to put some of the Catholic ideas behind you I think - such as the Assumption of Mary, perhaps? Very shaky supposition to me as far as what I've read of the history of the Assumption, but maybe I've been fed the wrong info.
Then comes the publicity about child molestation.
Heh. Yeah. Another stereotype or generalization that gets at you but probably doesn't mean much if you examine what the religion actually teaches.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Talking of history.
The Anglican church (the largest protestant church) was founded in England. Most likely in the bedroom rather than on the toilet.
Ok, so first things first, I don't hate catholics. A lot of my friends are/were catholics, and I have no problem with that. What I hate is catholics who will not accept there are fundamental paradoxes in their religion that undermine the entirity of it.
I'm not going to list all of them, I'll just go with the main one which irritates me most - and irritated me even more while I was still Christian.
OK, so for Jesus to be the Messiah, he has to come directly from the line of David/Adam and Eve. (He would have had to come from Adam and Eve anyway to be born based on the creationism story, but aside from that :P). Jesus also has to be free from all sin, otherwise as he is a part of God, God is NOT all good. Sin is passed on from generation to generation (original sin this is). Mary must have had original sin, as she was conceived of man. Therefore, to be born of Mary is to be born of sin. To conclude, Jesus must have had original sin as he was born of Mary. I spoke to my local catholic bishop about this (after listening to one of his sermons and seething in the pews for his total arrogance). He simply said "Oh, well that seems like a good argument, until of course you remember that Mary was free of all sin." Upon asking "But then her parents, and their parents etc. etc. etc. must have been free of sin also, meaning that none of us are born of sin at all?", he responded angrily, "Clearly you do not understand, Mary was free of sin because God made it that way.".... "God made it that way."... If that was even written in the Bible it might carry the tiniest bit of clought... But as it is, it's the lamest excuse I've heard. I also made the point of most of the other paradoxes within Catholicism, and he always came back to this "Because that's what God did," excuse.... It also pisses me off that they won't accept that Mary was NOT/might not have been a virgin. It's long since been proven that the 'Virgin Mary' quote from the original Bible was a misunderstanding, where 'Virgin' actually meant 'Unmarried.'
Next thing that pisses me off about Catholicism is it's past, and traditions. Basically meaning the Papacy and the Vatican. The two most unhumane, senseless and really quite unchristian institutions I've heard of.
I could go on all day with things really, because there's a fair bit that irritates me, but I'll just make the one point. I HATE the Catholic church for this. I honestly would get involved with the whole Church burning thing if it would bring a stop to this:
Catholic missionarys/nuns sent to African/Third World countries to help prevent AIDS are actively undermining any efforts to help that part of the world. For those of you who don't know about this, on command from the Pope (and the last Pope also) the nuns visit tribes/towns and tell them that the only way to avoid AIDS is to pray to God and convert to catholicism, and (worst part, and I really hope they all go to hell for their part in this) they teach them that condoms actually GIVE them AIDS, and they should never use them. Just the thought of that makes me feel physically sick. Over 2 million people die in Sub-saharan Africa (more in other parts!) every year from AIDS, and that rate is on the increase. This orphans over 12 million infants every year. And what do the Catholics do in Jesus' name to help this? They tell them that AIDS will go away if they pray to their God, and actually promote the increase of AIDS... I really can't express how much this sickens me. I wouldn't condemn anyone to hell for an ordinary act, but anyone supporting this... I really hope to hear the screams of from the 7th circle of hell.
P.S. Don't claim to be in a religion you don't understand... It's not a good move... Learn about your religion, you may love it, or you may loathe it. It's soul-building.
The Catholic ministry does in fact have an active system to protect their own under such charges in fact - from the testimony of an Ex-Catholic priest I know - so clearly it's not just a stereotype... Granted, i'm sure 90% of Catholic priests aren't molesting kids... But there's still that 10%...
Well, I meant that if you study the religion, they probably don't have anything that they teach like, "Mollestation of small children is good. This you must do to get into heaven." So to use mollestation against Catholicism probably wouldn't turn over well. It wouldn't be logical. Now what you said above - I don't know whether it's true or not. I don't know what you mean by protection either. How would they protect them? Keep it a secret? Anyway, yes, that would pose a problem - to say the obvious.
Jesus also has to be free from all sin, otherwise as he is a part of God, God is NOT all good. Sin is passed on from generation to generation (original sin this is). Mary must have had original sin, as she was conceived of man. Therefore, to be born of Mary is to be born of sin. To conclude, Jesus must have had original sin as he was born of Mary.
Yeah, I've thought of this as well. But based on my beliefs, Jesus is not the Messiah if he had sin in him. But since we believe him to have risen from the grave and conquered death by the power of God in him, I think that it would be relatively safe to assume that he conquered sin as well because of God's power. In Genesis it speaks of Christ as being the seed of a woman - not the seed of man as most of the time the Bible speaks of the children of men. This seems to indicate that he would be born of a woman alone and his birth would have nothing to do with being born of a man. I'm fairly sure you could find other passages that would support the virgin birth if 'virgin' in this case was actually supposed to be translated as 'unwed.'
We all as human beings are born and die without God's intervention. Ultimate death is the price of sin. Christ died, but he did not die permanently. Therefore he conquered ultimate death and so I think we can say that he conquered sin since he did not have to pay its price in full by dying permanently. No human can do this because we are singular beings in this respect. When our bodies die, we cannot say, "Hey, death sucks. I think I'll resurrect myself," because we're dead. The only thing of Christ that died was his body. God still lived in him. I'm still not entirely sure whether Christ's body was blameless. His spirit was blameless though because his spirit was God's. I think I remember him answering the pharisees or some scribes or someone when they addressed him as "good teacher" by saying, "There is no one good but God." Don't take me for absolute on that without looking it up. Just something that I've been mulling over in my mind.
I do believe, though, that Mary had sin in her and that when she died her body remained dead and was not resurrected - not yet anyway.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Oh, and you need to calm down about the Catholic church. They are no worse than any other religion.
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Same here. My parents tried to do that, it pissed me off. But, yeah, I couldn't care less what religion anybody has as long as it doesn't affect me.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Oh, and you need to calm down about the Catholic church. They are no worse than any other religion.
Yes, just be glad that the Catholics aren't bloodthirsty fiends out to slaughter countless people. Oh, wait, I forgot about the Crusaders...
In order for God to be good, evil is a necessity. This means that for all we know God could have created evil just to make himself look good to us. Or maybe he is evil and created good. Either way, what is good and what is evil is only defined by the majority. Whatever benefits the majority is almost always looked on as "good", and whatever is detrimental to them is "evil". When you look at it this way, good and evil are simply figments of our imagination that we use to benefit ourselves, which means that God is neither good nor evil but simply is. But since I don't believe in the God that all of you believe in (because no two people believe in the same God), this really has no meaning.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
If God created everything, he has to have some evil in him, too.
No. Research 'Theodicies' (Augustinian, Monist, Irenaeus, and the Free-Will Defence to name a few prominent ones). Explanations of God being the creator without being the creator of evil. Personally I combine two parts of Augustinian Theodicy, and Monist thinking to justify it myself - Augustinian Theodicy has a part that says "There is no evil, only absense of good" ('Privatio Bono' is the latin I believe...) and then the Monist argument that nothing is evil, evil is just an illusion based on us perceiving things from what good they do for us, rather than their universal goodness.
So I think Jesus being born with original sin is just redundant. Besides, how the hell can you prove original sin?
To use your phrase "The burden of proof lies on the one making the unsubstanciated claim." It's in their beliefs that original sin exists, not mine. (And they dont need to prove it either really - it's just a belief).
Oh, and you need to calm down about the Catholic church. They are no worse than any other religion.
I beg to differ. I do disagree fundamentally with all religion. But that's mainly based on the power I see catholicism exert as a religion. The Catholics, historically have abused their power a whole lot more than most other Classical religions in my view. Also, their approach to their own religion, to be honest, irritates me. A religion should make you joyful, not sorrowful and repentant.
In reading a lot of the bible I just can't find any place where Jesus says Peter is going to be a pope and start his church.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
That is like Republicans liking the Dead Kennedys..
If God created everything, he has to have some evil in him, too.
No. Research 'Theodicies' (Augustinian, Monist, Irenaeus, and the Free-Will Defence to name a few prominent ones). Explanations of God being the creator without being the creator of evil. Personally I combine two parts of Augustinian Theodicy, and Monist thinking to justify it myself - Augustinian Theodicy has a part that says "There is no evil, only absense of good" ('Privatio Bono' is the latin I believe...) and then the Monist argument that nothing is evil, evil is just an illusion based on us perceiving things from what good they do for us, rather than their universal goodness.
I've never bought into the idea of using men's logic to explain certain aspects of God, mainly because people say God's existence is one that defies logic. (As in, who created God?) Who is to say that my logic regarding good and evil is any more flawed than Augusitinian's?
So I think Jesus being born with original sin is just redundant. Besides, how the hell can you prove original sin?
To use your phrase "The burden of proof lies on the one making the unsubstanciated claim." It's in their beliefs that original sin exists, not mine. (And they dont need to prove it either really - it's just a belief).
Religion is a huge series of unsubstantiated claims. To say that just because there is no direct reference of it in the Bible is really proving or disproving its validity is a big stretch. Catholics believe in venial/mortal sins, which isn't directly in the Bible, but who cares? Faith defies logic, and faith can certainly defy something that was written thousands of years ago. How do you know the Catholics don't have it all right?
Oh, and you need to calm down about the Catholic church. They are no worse than any other religion.
I beg to differ. I do disagree fundamentally with all religion. But that's mainly based on the power I see catholicism exert as a religion. The Catholics, historically have abused their power a whole lot more than most other Classical religions in my view. Also, their approach to their own religion, to be honest, irritates me. A religion should make you joyful, not sorrowful and repentant.
Every single denomination on the face of the Earth is started to make cash, or fulfill some personal gain. The Catholics abuse their power, yes. Every other religion on Earth uses their influence to get what they want.
As for the religion making you feel sorrowful and repenant? Name some mainstream religions that don't. Lutherans? Yep. Methodists? Yep. Episcopalians? Yep. Greek Orth? Yep. Baptists? Yep. Church of Christ? Yep.
The list goes on.
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