Originally posted by modjoe86 Now I have a question for you: If I put all my faith in an Invisible Pink Unicorn (Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves) or a Flying Spaghetti Monster, would you not question my sanity as some have questioned yours?
For me, the proof is in the doing. I know that the religious concepts I follow have truth becasue I have tested them for myself.
Anything you can prove is not a faith based decision. It's empiric reason.
Faith is the part where you abandon reason and believe on trust alone.
You can test your faith by consciously acting against reason to see if you really believe enough to go through with the actions. In this case you are not testing the faith itself, but rather yourself. Your own capacity to believe without evidence.
The religious concepts I follow have truth because I have tested them.....Reason.
The religious concepts I follow have truth because God tells me so........Faith.
Ok, thats cool I guess my faith is reasonable.
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
So is South Park right? Is the correct answer really Mormons?
If you really watch South Park you'd know what they think of the Mormon religion (dum dum dum o/). Like many religions it's based on outright lies used to control the population.
Yup Southpark did make "big time" fun of Mormon religion, even though they are always fairly nice in their portrayal of the Mormon people. I have a feeling one of the two of them practiced mormonism at some point or had family who is Mormon becasue they had access to a lot of cultural inside jokes.
But I dont get offended or thrown off by things like that. I dont need everybody else in the world to believe how I do. Of course if you're interested their are some missionaries I would be happy to introduce yout to ;-).
So is South Park right? Is the correct answer really Mormons?
If you really watch South Park you'd know what they think of the Mormon religion (dum dum dum o/). Like many religions it's based on outright lies used to control the population.
Yup Southpark did make "big time" fun of Mormon religion, even though they are always fairly nice in their portrayal of the Mormon people. I have a feeling one of the two of them practiced mormonism at some point or had family who is Mormon becasue they had access to a lot of cultural inside jokes.
But I dont get offended or thrown off by things like that. I dont need everybody else in the world to believe how I do. Of course if you're interested their are some missionaries I would be happy to introduce yout to ;-).
Actually I'm one of those few people who doesn't chase off people from my door, religions or the communists, I usually don't mind an occasional theological or political discussion. I've spent most of my life living near a college (it drives my wife nuts and she usually comes into my office to tell me my "commie" friends are here, every year it's new kids). I've even made a philosophy professor pause and tell me I'd given him the best answers that he'd ever heard, and I was just his gardener.
Normally I wouldn't try to be offensive about a belief, but I have seen how the Mormon religion was started, I'd call the founder a liar to his face. I have known people who believed in it and were the nicest people you would want to meet. Sometimes it works that way, they were nice but I just can't get behind what they believed.
Personally I think that if you took every religion in the world, mixed them all together while removing what men (and yes women) have claimed god told them, you would have a good, working morality code. People have, and still do, used religion to brow beat others into their way of thinking. You did so yourself with your comment about sending missionaries. It's a way to make yourself look human while making those who do not share your faith look nonhuman, a way to justify slaughter, torture, and genocide that extends all the way back to our tribal instincts.
Most tribal names can be roughly translated to mean "The People" meaning they view all others as "not The People" it is easier after all to kill someone if you don't think of them as being a fellow human being. Many religions extend this, giving the religious leaders control of an even wider population. Religion has been used to justify killing those who believe differently for nearly as long as religion has existed. Even slight differences are used as excuses, Christians have burned, tortured, and murdered each other over those slight differences for hundreds of years, and Muslims are, even today, slaughtering and bombing each other over various interpretations of the Koran. The Jewish religion has also been used as an excuse to murder them. All three of these religions share common beliefs but, in the world sense, are at each others throats. I say in the world sense because there are many places where all three get along fine with each other.
If god, or the gods, ever did take a direct hand in the lives of man I'm quite certain he/she/it/they left a long time ago in utter exasperation at the idiot children he/she/it/they had raised. Follow the values, not the words of man, and you will be a decent person. Follow the words of man and you will find an excuse to abandon the values and justify murder.
So is South Park right? Is the correct answer really Mormons?
If you really watch South Park you'd know what they think of the Mormon religion (dum dum dum o/). Like many religions it's based on outright lies used to control the population.
Uhh yeah I know, but if you watched the South Park movie you would know that only Mormons go to Heaven in the world of South Park
"but I was a devout Protestant!"
hell tour guide: "Oh I'm sorry the correct answer was mormons..yes, mormons"
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
So is South Park right? Is the correct answer really Mormons?
If you really watch South Park you'd know what they think of the Mormon religion (dum dum dum o/). Like many religions it's based on outright lies used to control the population.
Uhh yeah I know, but if you watched the South Park movie you would know that only Mormons go to Heaven in the world of South Park
"but I was a devout Protestant!"
hell tour guide: "Oh I'm sorry the correct answer was mormons..yes, mormons"
Actually the funniest part of that was where the Mormons were trying to welcome Satan into heaven
Originally posted by Razorback Ok firstly to all of you who said I have basically abused my position as a Moderator in this thread, or at best shown exceptionaly poor judgement. Your 100% correct and I apologise unreservedly to anyone offended by my posts. To Dreanor, an unreserved apology for the way I posted in relation to you. Im sorry. I have shown very poor judgement as a person and as a poster. I have undermined my own credibility as a Moderator and brought the site and the other staff into disrepute by the way I expressed myself. In addition I even broke the RoC on the most liberal interpretation of its standards. I offered to resign, but fortunately the people who manage me, are of far sounder minds than me and have decided to give me another chance. Again I apologise unreservedly for both what I said and the way I said it. It seems the disease afflicting Mel Gibson and Micheal Richards has also infected me. Sorry. It wont happen again.
and this is why you are a mod, razor. it does take an very big man to admit when he steps over the line. youre #1 in me book. i dont have a problem with you expressing an opinion. in fact, thats why im even in these forums, because i love to hear and try to understand other peoples opinions. we are all so diverse in our thoughts and ideals, that it is fasciating to read about why someone might feel that we are really apart of one big science experiment. or why someone else might believe that aliens mated with cave men long ago. i love to hear this stuff. even hearing your point of view about religious people being insane. i just dont like it when some one that doesnt even know me, decides that i should be locked up in a mental institute based solely on me own personal feelings and beliefs. and wont hear me out when im defending me beliefs. im not telling you not to feel that way, i just dont think that we should have to be talked down to and verbally bashed like was done here.
again, i have alot more respect for you now. youve proven that you deserve your position as a mod. i wish that alot more people in these forums would or even could follow your example of respect and maturity. but alas, prolly will never happen.
to all those that have repeatedly bashed and insulted the rest of us "religious people", im done with this discussion. i dont believe that youre capable of holding an adult convo. take it as an insult or whatever, i dont really care. i believe in God and if you truly believe that im "insane", thats your problem. not mine, its your loss if you cant get past such a trivial thing and respect other peoples opinions. ive tried to be nice, but some of you are flat out jackasses and pricks. youve proven it over and over with your nitpicking on Draenors avatar, his sig, MY experience that i shared. calling me a lier and crazy. how do you not see how rude and abrasive that is? it says alot for your character. and frankly, lve lost a ton of respect for some of you. modjoe, i had alot of respect for you, but after some of your recent posts....... i know you dont care, but whatever, im still entitled to be able to say so. after all, you called me insane and a lier and insulted me repeatedly. so i feel like i should be allow to tell you off. and Draenor, youre right, any opinion about God being real falls on deaf ears in this thread.
at least, when you let the mods know that they offended you, theyre big enough to admit it and apologize. for that im grateful.
this is me last post in this dumbass thread. flame on.
Originally posted by outfctrl Look all around the world at what you see. Look at America the Christian nation and look at how God has blessed it.
Now look around all the other parts of the world and you see people living in poverty compared to America and being held back and controlled especially in most muslim countries.
Any country that is not Christian but is doing well is because of America who blessed them, because they could'nt bless themsleves.
How is that? It must be God who blsses "HIS PEOPLE", so then they can be a blessing to others.
America in its little bitty age compared to all others has totally left others countries in the dust that were here thousands and thousands of years before America was even thought of. And look at America and how blessed America is because of God.(I personally believe that the forefathers of America made a covenant with the Lord Jesus Christ.)
If I was a person in another country I would take this to heart when deciding what God to serve because it is plain for the whole world to see that there is only one God who answers his people's prayers and blesses them and that would be Jesus.
I don't see any evidence that the people of other countries that serve other god's from Africa to China,to the muslim world,anywhere you look,etc have a god who has answered their prayers and blessea them like Jesus has America,etc.
Do you? Has Buddha blessed asia? like Jesus has America? Has the hindu god's blessed like Jesus has?What about Muhammad?
I think that anybody who is honest can see which God blesses his people and which god's don't.
yea, except america ISN"T (in fact) a xian nation. so aren't you the fucking ignorant one?
Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by freethinker
yea, except america ISN"T (in fact) a xian nation. so aren't you the fucking ignorant one? Wow, read anything but the very first post? well..that's why i put the " " in...it was susposed to notate sarcasm. guess that can be hard to get across in text. LOL.
Originally posted by Sassymolassy Religion has started plenty of wars, so that love thy neighbor talk is null. Saying that everybody that believes in Christ is responsible for all religious attrocities in the past isn't fair. Thats like saying people who dont believe in God are responsible for the holocaust, Cambodia killing fields, teinanmen square and all of stalins atrocities. In every field of thought there are evil people who use and manipulate people to gain power. Southpark had a great episode on this subject. Religious teachings, in and of themselves, do not teach blood shed and mayhem. Man teaches terror. SO how do my beliefs and actions effect you negatively? So what if I believe in an absolute. Its not like that absolute tells me I should kill you or hurt you or do anything offensive at all. In fact it tells me I should care a great deal for you, even though I dont know you. That should not make me seem crazy or scary. And FYI, not all Christains believe in a firey hell waiting for anyone who doesn't wave there hands in the air and say they accepted Jesus into their heart. Maybe you just haven't found the right religion yet.
It is fair, to some extent. People that believe make it easier for the extremists to stomach any doubts they might have about their course of action. If one person believes something outlandish, he's a nutjob. If a million people believe, it's religion. And I suggest you re-check the holocaust. The holocaust was very religious in it's roots. The Jews were the ones that killed Christ, and the holocaust was played out to be the Christian's handing down that punishment to the Jews. Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutherian movement, had a big influence on Hitler and his actions.
And atheists cannot be blamed for anything, precisely because there is no dogma or anything to go by. Atheists are varied that there are materialist atheists and spiritualist atheists and everything inbetween. Christians, on the otherhand, will support, to a very large majority, the Bible, which has some pretty atrocious things. And it's all of the moderate believers that give the few that want to follow those otherwise glanced-over sections the courage to try and enforce some of the less humane laws in the Bible.
the Bible, which has some pretty atrocious things. And it's all of the moderate believers that give the few that want to follow those otherwise glanced-over sections the courage to try and enforce some of the less humane laws in the Bible.
wrong, the torah has some pretty wicked stuff, the Bible has Jesus, read the book of Mathew for Jesus' thoughts on the laws contained in levitikus(the book with most of the stuff that people find to be attrocious, it contains the laws of God written down by Moses)
and before you respond, no, Jesus isn't saying that the old testament is wrong...put it into context.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Religion has started plenty of wars, so that love thy neighbor talk is null. Saying that everybody that believes in Christ is responsible for all religious attrocities in the past isn't fair. Thats like saying people who dont believe in God are responsible for the holocaust, Cambodia killing fields, teinanmen square and all of stalins atrocities. In every field of thought there are evil people who use and manipulate people to gain power. Southpark had a great episode on this subject. Religious teachings, in and of themselves, do not teach blood shed and mayhem. Man teaches terror. SO how do my beliefs and actions effect you negatively? So what if I believe in an absolute. Its not like that absolute tells me I should kill you or hurt you or do anything offensive at all. In fact it tells me I should care a great deal for you, even though I dont know you. That should not make me seem crazy or scary. And FYI, not all Christains believe in a firey hell waiting for anyone who doesn't wave there hands in the air and say they accepted Jesus into their heart. Maybe you just haven't found the right religion yet.
It is fair, to some extent. People that believe make it easier for the extremists to stomach any doubts they might have about their course of action. If one person believes something outlandish, he's a nutjob. If a million people believe, it's religion. "what do you find so outlandish and crazy about the teachings of Jesus Christ?"
And I suggest you re-check the holocaust. The holocaust was very religious in it's roots. The Jews were the ones that killed Christ, and the holocaust was played out to be the Christian's handing down that punishment to the Jews. Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutherian movement, had a big influence on Hitler and his actions.
I took your advice and I re-looked at the holocaust. I still find that Hitler was extrememly anti-religious. I am just going to copy one of the things that I read by Allan Bullock a hitler Biographer;
It was 'the great position' of the Church that he respected, the fact that it lasted for so many centuries; but towards its teaching he showed the sharpest hostility. In Hitler's eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle, and the survival of the fittest. 'Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.' [Hitler's Table Talk, London 1953, p. 57] ... once the war was over, he promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches. [Hitler's Table Talk, p. 304]
...The truth is that, in matters of religion at least, Hitler was a rationalist and a materialist. 'The dogma of Christianity,' he declared in one of his wartime conversations,
gets worn away before the advances of science....Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know the stars are not sources of light, but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....The man who lives in communion with nature necessarily finds himself in opposition to the Churches, and that why they're heading for ruinfor science is bound to win. [Hitler's Table Talk, pp. 59-61]
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by Mylon
the Bible, which has some pretty atrocious things. And it's all of the moderate believers that give the few that want to follow those otherwise glanced-over sections the courage to try and enforce some of the less humane laws in the Bible.
wrong, the torah has some pretty wicked stuff, the Bible has Jesus, read the book of Mathew for Jesus' thoughts on the laws contained in levitikus(the book with most of the stuff that people find to be attrocious, it contains the laws of God written down by Moses)
and before you respond, no, Jesus isn't saying that the old testament is wrong...put it into context.
Yeah, And Matthew 5 says not a bit of the old law is invalid "until heaven and earth dissapear". Now, a lot of people interpret that little clause after ( "until everything is accomplished.") to mean that Jesus's dying on the cross is what that clause means, but there's no support for such reasoning except, well, all of those old laws are terribly inconvienant and we've gotten along without them for quite a while now...
Originally posted by Sassymolassy Originally posted by Mylon
Originally posted by Sassymolassy Religion has started plenty of wars, so that love thy neighbor talk is null. Saying that everybody that believes in Christ is responsible for all religious attrocities in the past isn't fair. Thats like saying people who dont believe in God are responsible for the holocaust, Cambodia killing fields, teinanmen square and all of stalins atrocities. In every field of thought there are evil people who use and manipulate people to gain power. Southpark had a great episode on this subject. Religious teachings, in and of themselves, do not teach blood shed and mayhem. Man teaches terror. SO how do my beliefs and actions effect you negatively? So what if I believe in an absolute. Its not like that absolute tells me I should kill you or hurt you or do anything offensive at all. In fact it tells me I should care a great deal for you, even though I dont know you. That should not make me seem crazy or scary. And FYI, not all Christains believe in a firey hell waiting for anyone who doesn't wave there hands in the air and say they accepted Jesus into their heart. Maybe you just haven't found the right religion yet.
It is fair, to some extent. People that believe make it easier for the extremists to stomach any doubts they might have about their course of action. If one person believes something outlandish, he's a nutjob. If a million people believe, it's religion. "what do you find so outlandish and crazy about the teachings of Jesus Christ?"
And I suggest you re-check the holocaust. The holocaust was very religious in it's roots. The Jews were the ones that killed Christ, and the holocaust was played out to be the Christian's handing down that punishment to the Jews. Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutherian movement, had a big influence on Hitler and his actions.
I took your advice and I re-looked at the holocaust. I still find that Hitler was extrememly anti-religious. I am just going to copy one of the things that I read by Allan Bullock a hitler Biographer;
It was 'the great position' of the Church that he respected, the fact that it lasted for so many centuries; but towards its teaching he showed the sharpest hostility. In Hitler's eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle, and the survival of the fittest. 'Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.' [Hitler's Table Talk, London 1953, p. 57] ... once the war was over, he promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches. [Hitler's Table Talk, p. 304]
...The truth is that, in matters of religion at least, Hitler was a rationalist and a materialist. 'The dogma of Christianity,' he declared in one of his wartime conversations,
gets worn away before the advances of science....Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know the stars are not sources of light, but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....The man who lives in communion with nature necessarily finds himself in opposition to the Churches, and that why they're heading for ruinfor science is bound to win. [Hitler's Table Talk, pp. 59-61]
I suggest you do your research better. All of your sources are the same, which suggests that the lack of other souces (particular ones that are not heresay) might not support the views you hope so you casually sweep them under the rug. Just in a simple search I found this, about Hitler's Table Talk:
Hitler's Table Talk
Those who deny Hitler as a Christian will invariably find the recorded table talk conversations of Hitler from 1941 to 1944 as incontrovertible evidence that he could not have been a Christian. The source usually comes from the English translation edition by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, with an introduction by H.R. Trevor-Roper.
The table talk has Hitler saying such things such as: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."
But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:
1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the anti-Catholic, Bormann)
2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations.
3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity.
4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive" Christianity.
quoted from http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm , with the points detailed out more in that web page. You can attack my source if you wish, as there is an agenda involved with it, but there is reasonable doubt for your source.
Also check http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2002/nov02/carrier.php , : But we have no evidence that he was perpetuating a ruse. Even in unguarded moments, he asserted faith in God and Christ. His entire philosophy was thoroughly intertwined with and built upon the religious assumptions of Christian theism.
Originally posted by outfctrl Look all around the world at what you see. Look at America the Christian nation and look at how God has blessed it.
Now look around all the other parts of the world and you see people living in poverty compared to America and being held back and controlled especially in most muslim countries.
Any country that is not Christian but is doing well is because of America who blessed them, because they could'nt bless themsleves.
How is that? It must be God who blsses "HIS PEOPLE", so then they can be a blessing to others.
America in its little bitty age compared to all others has totally left others countries in the dust that were here thousands and thousands of years before America was even thought of. And look at America and how blessed America is because of God.(I personally believe that the forefathers of America made a covenant with the Lord Jesus Christ.)
If I was a person in another country I would take this to heart when deciding what God to serve because it is plain for the whole world to see that there is only one God who answers his people's prayers and blesses them and that would be Jesus.
I don't see any evidence that the people of other countries that serve other god's from Africa to China,to the muslim world,anywhere you look,etc have a god who has answered their prayers and blessea them like Jesus has America,etc.
Do you? Has Buddha blessed asia? like Jesus has America? Has the hindu god's blessed like Jesus has?What about Muhammad?
I think that anybody who is honest can see which God blesses his people and which god's don't.
For your info theres 2countrys richer then sweeden lexingbourg and sweeden i think...
Originally posted by outfctrl Look all around the world at what you see. Look at America the Christian nation and look at how God has blessed it.
Now look around all the other parts of the world and you see people living in poverty compared to America and being held back and controlled especially in most muslim countries.
Any country that is not Christian but is doing well is because of America who blessed them, because they could'nt bless themsleves.
How is that? It must be God who blsses "HIS PEOPLE", so then they can be a blessing to others.
America in its little bitty age compared to all others has totally left others countries in the dust that were here thousands and thousands of years before America was even thought of. And look at America and how blessed America is because of God.(I personally believe that the forefathers of America made a covenant with the Lord Jesus Christ.)
If I was a person in another country I would take this to heart when deciding what God to serve because it is plain for the whole world to see that there is only one God who answers his people's prayers and blesses them and that would be Jesus.
I don't see any evidence that the people of other countries that serve other god's from Africa to China,to the muslim world,anywhere you look,etc have a god who has answered their prayers and blessea them like Jesus has America,etc.
Do you? Has Buddha blessed asia? like Jesus has America? Has the hindu god's blessed like Jesus has?What about Muhammad?
I think that anybody who is honest can see which God blesses his people and which god's don't.
lol non sense. most of them are living based on a 3000 years timeline i dont see any blessing with religion. only conflicts and wars at some point. religions used to ally people beyond borders, people who needed a code of conduct with their peer. at the informational age its just slowing us down
Originally posted by Sassymolassy"what do you find so outlandish and crazy about the teachings of Jesus Christ?"
What do I find so outlandish? Perhaps a little bit of Matthiew 5:
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e]28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
...
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g]39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
And I didn't have to look far from the previous passage of Matthiew I quoted earlier. As noble as the whole, "If he sues for your tunic give him your cloak" sounds, we've learned what appeasement leads to. They'll ask for your pants and pocketlint, too. Even still, very few Christians ever hint at such a thing. If a criminal commits a crime, their response is, "Put him in the slammer for life!" Or even execution.
Then there's
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f]32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Yeah, if a man divorces his wife and he's not unfaithful, she becomes an adulteress. Her faithfulness does not come into question. Anyone that marries a divorced woman...
Originally posted by outfctrl Look all around the world at what you see. Look at America the Christian nation and look at how God has blessed it.
Now look around all the other parts of the world and you see people living in poverty compared to America and being held back and controlled especially in most muslim countries.
....bla bla bla
For your info theres 2countrys richer then sweeden lexingbourg and sweeden i think...
GDP is not wealth, it's industrial output.
Making 20 cars a year in a factory is not the same as owning those cars.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Originally posted by Mylon Originally posted by Sassymolassy
"what do you find so outlandish and crazy about the teachings of Jesus Christ?"
What do I find so outlandish? Perhaps a little bit of Matthiew 5:
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e]28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Oh Come on...you really take that literally? All he is trying to get across is that you should cast out the things that cause you to sin in your life, not literally gouge your eyes out. Because that would be a sin against God, because it's like telling him that his creation isn't good enough for you when you do things like that. Same goes for tattoos.
...
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g]39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
And I didn't have to look far from the previous passage of Matthiew I quoted earlier. As noble as the whole, "If he sues for your tunic give him your cloak" sounds, we've learned what appeasement leads to. They'll ask for your pants and pocketlint, too. Even still, very few Christians ever hint at such a thing. If a criminal commits a crime, their response is, "Put him in the slammer for life!" Or even execution.
It's not about pacifism, it's about showing others your message of love and understanding. People like to call Jesus a pacifist, but he really wasn't. You can look at how he spoke to his disciples at times, he got frustrated with them for their lack of understanding...and he told them about it, A pacifist wouldn't do that. As far as your opinion on the death penalty...there is a distinct line between self protection and just being cold hearted. It's about protecting society as a whole, it's about being realistic, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Then there's
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f]32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Yeah, if a man divorces his wife and he's not unfaithful, she becomes an adulteress. Her faithfulness does not come into question. Anyone that marries a divorced woman...
The marriage laws are very clear and are there so that people will be more carefull about entering into marriage, lately people have been getting married more, and the divorce rate has skyrocketted, why? Because people are ignoring what marriage is supposed to be, it has become something of a passing fancy where people throw around the word "love" all too often. Read song of songs, and first corinthians chapter 13 if you want to know what real love is.
I could find more, but do I really need to?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
It is fair, to some extent. People that believe make it easier for the extremists to stomach any doubts they might have about their course of action. If one person believes something outlandish, he's a nutjob. If a million people believe, it's religion. "what do you find so outlandish and crazy about the teachings of Jesus Christ?" And I suggest you re-check the holocaust. The holocaust was very religious in it's roots. The Jews were the ones that killed Christ, and the holocaust was played out to be the Christian's handing down that punishment to the Jews. Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutherian movement, had a big influence on Hitler and his actions. I took your advice and I re-looked at the holocaust. I still find that Hitler was extrememly anti-religious. I am just going to copy one of the things that I read by Allan Bullock a hitler Biographer;
It was 'the great position' of the Church that he respected, the fact that it lasted for so many centuries; but towards its teaching he showed the sharpest hostility. In Hitler's eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle, and the survival of the fittest. 'Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.' [Hitler's Table Talk, London 1953, p. 57] ... once the war was over, he promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches. [Hitler's Table Talk, p. 304]
...The truth is that, in matters of religion at least, Hitler was a rationalist and a materialist. 'The dogma of Christianity,' he declared in one of his wartime conversations,
gets worn away before the advances of science....Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know the stars are not sources of light, but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....The man who lives in communion with nature necessarily finds himself in opposition to the Churches, and that why they're heading for ruinfor science is bound to win. [Hitler's Table Talk, pp. 59-61]
I suggest you do your research better. All of your sources are the same, which suggests that the lack of other souces (particular ones that are not heresay) might not support the views you hope so you casually sweep them under the rug. Just in a simple search I found this, about Hitler's Table Talk:
Hitler's Table Talk
Those who deny Hitler as a Christian will invariably find the recorded table talk conversations of Hitler from 1941 to 1944 as incontrovertible evidence that he could not have been a Christian. The source usually comes from the English translation edition by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, with an introduction by H.R. Trevor-Roper.
The table talk has Hitler saying such things such as: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."
But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:
Yes, I read that anti-CHristains dismiss Hitler's table talk as being from the anti-catholic Bormann. It is one thing to say that Bormann "edited" or "filtered" what Hitler said. It is another thing to say that Bormann fabricated out of thin air long sections of anti-Christian rhetoric. What are Bormann's motives for such a fabrication of a document not meant for public consumption?
1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the anti-Catholic, Bormann)
2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations. That's just false!Many Hitler historians reference Hitler's anti-Christain sentiments; Hans Kung, Allan Bullock, Ian Hershaw & Walter C. Langer (each using several sources, not just table talks as you suggest). But as this is a forum, not a research paper, I included only one source. As for public denounceiation, CHristianity was a norm at the time and Hitler knew immediately denouncing CHristianity would be bad for him. It is said the he was especially God-fearing when he was comparing himself to CHrist. This is ego-centric manipulation and in no-way resembles CHristianity. Hitler lied and used disengenuous statements in almost every public address he gave. Take this one for example;
"The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers.... .And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable" published in the Nazi Völkischer Beobachter on October 26, 1930
3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity.
4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive" Christianity.
quoted from http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm , with the points detailed out more in that web page. You can attack my source if you wish, as there is an agenda involved with it, but there is reasonable doubt for your source.
Also check http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2002/nov02/carrier.php , : But we have no evidence that he was perpetuating a ruse. Even in unguarded moments, he asserted faith in God and Christ. His entire philosophy was thoroughly intertwined with and built upon the religious assumptions of Christian theism. Hitler was an admirer of Jesus but he obviously did not take to heart any of the teachings or practice this belief you claim to attribute to him. So was Hitler CHristain?? Not in any sense of the spirit or letter of the CHristain law. I will end with a quote by an anonymous internet source that gave a good summary for the CHristian arguement;
If the question is, "can someone read the New Testament and then go off and do horribly bad things?" then the answer is yes. If the question is "was Hitler in the tradition of mainstream Christianity" then the answer is no. The only "value" in saying "Hitler was a Christian" with an iconoclastic meaning for "Christian" is as a tool of anti-Christian propaganda towards the end of misleading people.
The Nuremberg trials of leading Nazis conclusively proved that they attempted genocide against the Jews, resulting in the Holocaust, in which some six million Jews were killed. But one senior member of the US prosecution team, General William Donovan, compiled a huge amount of documentation that the Nazis also planned to systematically destroy Christianity.
Donovans documentsalmost 150 bound volumeswere stored at Cornell University after his death in 1959, and are now being posted online at the Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion. This criminal conspiracy involved the very top Nazis, including Adolf Hitler and propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels, as well as Hitler Youth leader and Nuremberg defendant Baldur von Schirach.
These documents show that the Nazis, right from the beginning, realized that the church would have to be neutralized because of its opposition to racism and aggressive wars of conquest. So they planned to infiltrate the churches from within; defame, arrest, assault or kill pastors; reindoctrinate the congregations; and suppress denominational schools and youth organizations.
Bible-believing, evangelical churches were in the forefront of opposition, as opposed to compromising churches. Without a firm belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, liberal churches were more readily inclined to reinterpret Christianity to suit the ruling pro-evolution ideology, which is similar to what happens with Darwinistic science today.
As early as 1937, Protestant churches issued a manifesto objecting to Nazi policies, and the Nazis retaliated by arresting 700 pastors.
In an ominous parallel with current clamours by humanist and self-professed civil liberties groups to keep Creation in the church and obliterate all traces of Christianity from public life and schools, The various Christian Churches were confined as far as possible to the performance of narrowly religious functions, and even within this sphere were subjected to as many hindrances as the Nazis dared to impose.
All this furthered the Nazis aim of a slow and cautious policy of gradual encroachment to eliminate Christianity and use the churches organizational structures for their own purposes.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Our nations were founded by Christians. Our nations were built by Christians. It saddens me to see the extent to which all these other cultures have come in to tear down our society piece by piece, and the mealy mouthed whiners and malingerers just expedite the process.
The Jews have their Jewish nation, Islam has its own nations. Why can't we have our Christian nation? The majority of north americans are Christian, yet we are bound and gagged by the minority of others that cry about infringement of rights and so forth.
North America would be a better place if all non-christians were told to leave. If they don't want to live in a Christian nation, that's fine. Go to South Africa, or Lebanon, or Bhutan. I don't care. Just don't try to ruin our great country by taking out the spriit of the people that made it great.
Merry Christmas.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Comments
Anything you can prove is not a faith based decision. It's empiric reason.
Faith is the part where you abandon reason and believe on trust alone.
You can test your faith by consciously acting against reason to see if you really believe enough to go through with the actions. In this case you are not testing the faith itself, but rather yourself. Your own capacity to believe without evidence.
The religious concepts I follow have truth because I have tested them.....Reason.
The religious concepts I follow have truth because God tells me so........Faith.
Ok, thats cool I guess my faith is reasonable.
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
If you really watch South Park you'd know what they think of the Mormon religion (dum dum dum o/). Like many religions it's based on outright lies used to control the population.
Yup Southpark did make "big time" fun of Mormon religion, even though they are always fairly nice in their portrayal of the Mormon people. I have a feeling one of the two of them practiced mormonism at some point or had family who is Mormon becasue they had access to a lot of cultural inside jokes.
But I dont get offended or thrown off by things like that. I dont need everybody else in the world to believe how I do. Of course if you're interested their are some missionaries I would be happy to introduce yout to ;-).
If you really watch South Park you'd know what they think of the Mormon religion (dum dum dum o/). Like many religions it's based on outright lies used to control the population.
Yup Southpark did make "big time" fun of Mormon religion, even though they are always fairly nice in their portrayal of the Mormon people. I have a feeling one of the two of them practiced mormonism at some point or had family who is Mormon becasue they had access to a lot of cultural inside jokes.
But I dont get offended or thrown off by things like that. I dont need everybody else in the world to believe how I do. Of course if you're interested their are some missionaries I would be happy to introduce yout to ;-).
Actually I'm one of those few people who doesn't chase off people from my door, religions or the communists, I usually don't mind an occasional theological or political discussion. I've spent most of my life living near a college (it drives my wife nuts and she usually comes into my office to tell me my "commie" friends are here, every year it's new kids). I've even made a philosophy professor pause and tell me I'd given him the best answers that he'd ever heard, and I was just his gardener.
Normally I wouldn't try to be offensive about a belief, but I have seen how the Mormon religion was started, I'd call the founder a liar to his face. I have known people who believed in it and were the nicest people you would want to meet. Sometimes it works that way, they were nice but I just can't get behind what they believed.
Personally I think that if you took every religion in the world, mixed them all together while removing what men (and yes women) have claimed god told them, you would have a good, working morality code. People have, and still do, used religion to brow beat others into their way of thinking. You did so yourself with your comment about sending missionaries. It's a way to make yourself look human while making those who do not share your faith look nonhuman, a way to justify slaughter, torture, and genocide that extends all the way back to our tribal instincts.
Most tribal names can be roughly translated to mean "The People" meaning they view all others as "not The People" it is easier after all to kill someone if you don't think of them as being a fellow human being. Many religions extend this, giving the religious leaders control of an even wider population. Religion has been used to justify killing those who believe differently for nearly as long as religion has existed. Even slight differences are used as excuses, Christians have burned, tortured, and murdered each other over those slight differences for hundreds of years, and Muslims are, even today, slaughtering and bombing each other over various interpretations of the Koran. The Jewish religion has also been used as an excuse to murder them. All three of these religions share common beliefs but, in the world sense, are at each others throats. I say in the world sense because there are many places where all three get along fine with each other.
If god, or the gods, ever did take a direct hand in the lives of man I'm quite certain he/she/it/they left a long time ago in utter exasperation at the idiot children he/she/it/they had raised. Follow the values, not the words of man, and you will be a decent person. Follow the words of man and you will find an excuse to abandon the values and justify murder.
µV
If you really watch South Park you'd know what they think of the Mormon religion (dum dum dum o/). Like many religions it's based on outright lies used to control the population.
Uhh yeah I know, but if you watched the South Park movie you would know that only Mormons go to Heaven in the world of South Park
"but I was a devout Protestant!"
hell tour guide: "Oh I'm sorry the correct answer was mormons..yes, mormons"
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
If you really watch South Park you'd know what they think of the Mormon religion (dum dum dum o/). Like many religions it's based on outright lies used to control the population.
Uhh yeah I know, but if you watched the South Park movie you would know that only Mormons go to Heaven in the world of South Park
"but I was a devout Protestant!"
hell tour guide: "Oh I'm sorry the correct answer was mormons..yes, mormons"
Actually the funniest part of that was where the Mormons were trying to welcome Satan into heaven
µV
and this is why you are a mod, razor. it does take an very big man to admit when he steps over the line. youre #1 in me book. i dont have a problem with you expressing an opinion. in fact, thats why im even in these forums, because i love to hear and try to understand other peoples opinions. we are all so diverse in our thoughts and ideals, that it is fasciating to read about why someone might feel that we are really apart of one big science experiment. or why someone else might believe that aliens mated with cave men long ago. i love to hear this stuff. even hearing your point of view about religious people being insane. i just dont like it when some one that doesnt even know me, decides that i should be locked up in a mental institute based solely on me own personal feelings and beliefs. and wont hear me out when im defending me beliefs. im not telling you not to feel that way, i just dont think that we should have to be talked down to and verbally bashed like was done here.
again, i have alot more respect for you now. youve proven that you deserve your position as a mod. i wish that alot more people in these forums would or even could follow your example of respect and maturity. but alas, prolly will never happen.
to all those that have repeatedly bashed and insulted the rest of us "religious people", im done with this discussion. i dont believe that youre capable of holding an adult convo. take it as an insult or whatever, i dont really care. i believe in God and if you truly believe that im "insane", thats your problem. not mine, its your loss if you cant get past such a trivial thing and respect other peoples opinions. ive tried to be nice, but some of you are flat out jackasses and pricks. youve proven it over and over with your nitpicking on Draenors avatar, his sig, MY experience that i shared. calling me a lier and crazy. how do you not see how rude and abrasive that is? it says alot for your character. and frankly, lve lost a ton of respect for some of you. modjoe, i had alot of respect for you, but after some of your recent posts....... i know you dont care, but whatever, im still entitled to be able to say so. after all, you called me insane and a lier and insulted me repeatedly. so i feel like i should be allow to tell you off. and Draenor, youre right, any opinion about God being real falls on deaf ears in this thread.
at least, when you let the mods know that they offended you, theyre big enough to admit it and apologize. for that im grateful.
this is me last post in this dumbass thread. flame on.
______________________________
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Wow, read anything but the very first post?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Wow, read anything but the very first post?
well..that's why i put the "
==========================
Religion has started plenty of wars, so that love thy neighbor talk is null. Saying that everybody that believes in Christ is responsible for all religious attrocities in the past isn't fair. Thats like saying people who dont believe in God are responsible for the holocaust, Cambodia killing fields, teinanmen square and all of stalins atrocities. In every field of thought there are evil people who use and manipulate people to gain power. Southpark had a great episode on this subject. Religious teachings, in and of themselves, do not teach blood shed and mayhem. Man teaches terror. SO how do my beliefs and actions effect you negatively? So what if I believe in an absolute. Its not like that absolute tells me I should kill you or hurt you or do anything offensive at all. In fact it tells me I should care a great deal for you, even though I dont know you. That should not make me seem crazy or scary. And FYI, not all Christains believe in a firey hell waiting for anyone who doesn't wave there hands in the air and say they accepted Jesus into their heart. Maybe you just haven't found the right religion yet. It is fair, to some extent. People that believe make it easier for the extremists to stomach any doubts they might have about their course of action. If one person believes something outlandish, he's a nutjob. If a million people believe, it's religion. And I suggest you re-check the holocaust. The holocaust was very religious in it's roots. The Jews were the ones that killed Christ, and the holocaust was played out to be the Christian's handing down that punishment to the Jews. Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutherian movement, had a big influence on Hitler and his actions.
And atheists cannot be blamed for anything, precisely because there is no dogma or anything to go by. Atheists are varied that there are materialist atheists and spiritualist atheists and everything inbetween. Christians, on the otherhand, will support, to a very large majority, the Bible, which has some pretty atrocious things. And it's all of the moderate believers that give the few that want to follow those otherwise glanced-over sections the courage to try and enforce some of the less humane laws in the Bible.
the Bible, which has some pretty atrocious things. And it's all of the moderate believers that give the few that want to follow those otherwise glanced-over sections the courage to try and enforce some of the less humane laws in the Bible.
wrong, the torah has some pretty wicked stuff, the Bible has Jesus, read the book of Mathew for Jesus' thoughts on the laws contained in levitikus(the book with most of the stuff that people find to be attrocious, it contains the laws of God written down by Moses)
and before you respond, no, Jesus isn't saying that the old testament is wrong...put it into context.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Religion has started plenty of wars, so that love thy neighbor talk is null.
Saying that everybody that believes in Christ is responsible for all religious attrocities in the past isn't fair. Thats like saying people who dont believe in God are responsible for the holocaust, Cambodia killing fields, teinanmen square and all of stalins atrocities. In every field of thought there are evil people who use and manipulate people to gain power. Southpark had a great episode on this subject. Religious teachings, in and of themselves, do not teach blood shed and mayhem. Man teaches terror. SO how do my beliefs and actions effect you negatively? So what if I believe in an absolute. Its not like that absolute tells me I should kill you or hurt you or do anything offensive at all. In fact it tells me I should care a great deal for you, even though I dont know you. That should not make me seem crazy or scary. And FYI, not all Christains believe in a firey hell waiting for anyone who doesn't wave there hands in the air and say they accepted Jesus into their heart. Maybe you just haven't found the right religion yet.
It is fair, to some extent. People that believe make it easier for the extremists to stomach any doubts they might have about their course of action. If one person believes something outlandish, he's a nutjob. If a million people believe, it's religion. "what do you find so outlandish and crazy about the teachings of Jesus Christ?"
And I suggest you re-check the holocaust. The holocaust was very religious in it's roots. The Jews were the ones that killed Christ, and the holocaust was played out to be the Christian's handing down that punishment to the Jews. Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutherian movement, had a big influence on Hitler and his actions.
I took your advice and I re-looked at the holocaust. I still find that Hitler was extrememly anti-religious. I am just going to copy one of the things that I read by Allan Bullock a hitler Biographer;
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
the Bible, which has some pretty atrocious things. And it's all of the moderate believers that give the few that want to follow those otherwise glanced-over sections the courage to try and enforce some of the less humane laws in the Bible.
wrong, the torah has some pretty wicked stuff, the Bible has Jesus, read the book of Mathew for Jesus' thoughts on the laws contained in levitikus(the book with most of the stuff that people find to be attrocious, it contains the laws of God written down by Moses)
and before you respond, no, Jesus isn't saying that the old testament is wrong...put it into context.
Yeah, And Matthew 5 says not a bit of the old law is invalid "until heaven and earth dissapear". Now, a lot of people interpret that little clause after ( "until everything is accomplished.") to mean that Jesus's dying on the cross is what that clause means, but there's no support for such reasoning except, well, all of those old laws are terribly inconvienant and we've gotten along without them for quite a while now...
Oh, and the Bible includes the Torah, too.
Religion has started plenty of wars, so that love thy neighbor talk is null. Saying that everybody that believes in Christ is responsible for all religious attrocities in the past isn't fair. Thats like saying people who dont believe in God are responsible for the holocaust, Cambodia killing fields, teinanmen square and all of stalins atrocities. In every field of thought there are evil people who use and manipulate people to gain power. Southpark had a great episode on this subject. Religious teachings, in and of themselves, do not teach blood shed and mayhem. Man teaches terror. SO how do my beliefs and actions effect you negatively? So what if I believe in an absolute. Its not like that absolute tells me I should kill you or hurt you or do anything offensive at all. In fact it tells me I should care a great deal for you, even though I dont know you. That should not make me seem crazy or scary. And FYI, not all Christains believe in a firey hell waiting for anyone who doesn't wave there hands in the air and say they accepted Jesus into their heart. Maybe you just haven't found the right religion yet.
It is fair, to some extent. People that believe make it easier for the extremists to stomach any doubts they might have about their course of action. If one person believes something outlandish, he's a nutjob. If a million people believe, it's religion. "what do you find so outlandish and crazy about the teachings of Jesus Christ?"
And I suggest you re-check the holocaust. The holocaust was very religious in it's roots. The Jews were the ones that killed Christ, and the holocaust was played out to be the Christian's handing down that punishment to the Jews. Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutherian movement, had a big influence on Hitler and his actions.
I took your advice and I re-looked at the holocaust. I still find that Hitler was extrememly anti-religious. I am just going to copy one of the things that I read by Allan Bullock a hitler Biographer;
I suggest you do your research better. All of your sources are the same, which suggests that the lack of other souces (particular ones that are not heresay) might not support the views you hope so you casually sweep them under the rug. Just in a simple search I found this, about Hitler's Table Talk:
Hitler's Table Talk
Those who deny Hitler as a Christian will invariably find
the recorded table talk conversations of Hitler from 1941 to
1944 as incontrovertible evidence that he could not have been
a Christian. The source usually comes from the English translation
edition by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, with an introduction
by H.R. Trevor-Roper.
The table talk has Hitler saying such things such as: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The
best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."
But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see
that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as:
a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It
was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against
(just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce
his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the
contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about
Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations
as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:
1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the
anti-Catholic, Bormann)
2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's
other private or public conversations.
3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity.
4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive"
Christianity.
quoted from http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm , with the points detailed out more in that web page. You can attack my source if you wish, as there is an agenda involved with it, but there is reasonable doubt for your source.
Also check http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2002/nov02/carrier.php , : But we have no evidence that he was perpetuating a ruse. Even inunguarded moments, he asserted faith in God and Christ. His entire
philosophy was thoroughly intertwined with and built upon the religious
assumptions of Christian theism.
Also http://www.liesexposed.net/nfp/tabletalk/tabletalk.html : Thus, in dealing with the Table-Talk, we have many problems.
First, the only English translation available, the Trevor-Roper
edition, is hopelessly corrupt; it is a translation of Genoud's
translation, and Genoud's translation has been purposefully altered.
What did this Swiss banker who claimed to be a Nazi really have
planned? At best, he was a confused atheist who sought to
de-Christianize National Socialism, á la Bormann; but at worst,
and probably more realistic, he was an agent of the Jew propagandists
who spent much of his personal fortune buying up Nazi relics and
distributing supposedly authentic texts like the Table-Talk. The historian David Irving has stated that Genoud admitted that he personally forged a document called Hitler's Last Testament. Genoud also spent years in court trying to sew-up copyrights to the Table-Talk
to ensure that his perversion of the document would be the only one
available. Indeed Picker's German text was not complete, so that left
Genoud plenty of room to falsify the text all he wanted. It was not
until 1980 that Jochmann's complete German text was published, but even
this is merely a printing of a text that the forger Genoud had in his
possession for nearly thirty years, plenty of time to corrupt the post
1942 entries all he wanted, since he knew that his manuscript was the
sole source for these entries.
There is still gorunds to believe that Hitler was decidedly Christian. It's not quite so easy as you think to sweep such a "monster" under the rug as simply quoting a small number of highlights from a single source.
For your info theres 2countrys richer then sweeden lexingbourg and sweeden i think...
and hey aint christian there catholic
i dunno know much about religon
but i think catholics belive in jesus
What do I find so outlandish? Perhaps a little bit of Matthiew 5:
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If
your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is
better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body
to be thrown into hell. 30And
if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It
is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole
body to go into hell.
...
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
And I didn't have to look far from the previous passage of Matthiew I quoted earlier. As noble as the whole, "If he sues for your tunic give him your cloak" sounds, we've learned what appeasement leads to. They'll ask for your pants and pocketlint, too. Even still, very few Christians ever hint at such a thing. If a criminal commits a crime, their response is, "Put him in the slammer for life!" Or even execution.
Then there's
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital
unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who
marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Yeah, if a man divorces his wife and he's not unfaithful, she becomes an adulteress. Her faithfulness does not come into question. Anyone that marries a divorced woman...
I could find more, but do I really need to?
For your info theres 2countrys richer then sweeden lexingbourg and sweeden i think...
GDP is not wealth, it's industrial output.
Making 20 cars a year in a factory is not the same as owning those cars.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
What do I find so outlandish? Perhaps a little bit of Matthiew 5:
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Oh Come on...you really take that literally? All he is trying to get across is that you should cast out the things that cause you to sin in your life, not literally gouge your eyes out. Because that would be a sin against God, because it's like telling him that his creation isn't good enough for you when you do things like that. Same goes for tattoos.
...
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
And I didn't have to look far from the previous passage of Matthiew I quoted earlier. As noble as the whole, "If he sues for your tunic give him your cloak" sounds, we've learned what appeasement leads to. They'll ask for your pants and pocketlint, too. Even still, very few Christians ever hint at such a thing. If a criminal commits a crime, their response is, "Put him in the slammer for life!" Or even execution.
It's not about pacifism, it's about showing others your message of love and understanding. People like to call Jesus a pacifist, but he really wasn't. You can look at how he spoke to his disciples at times, he got frustrated with them for their lack of understanding...and he told them about it, A pacifist wouldn't do that. As far as your opinion on the death penalty...there is a distinct line between self protection and just being cold hearted. It's about protecting society as a whole, it's about being realistic, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Then there's
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Yeah, if a man divorces his wife and he's not unfaithful, she becomes an adulteress. Her faithfulness does not come into question. Anyone that marries a divorced woman...
The marriage laws are very clear and are there so that people will be more carefull about entering into marriage, lately people have been getting married more, and the divorce rate has skyrocketted, why? Because people are ignoring what marriage is supposed to be, it has become something of a passing fancy where people throw around the word "love" all too often. Read song of songs, and first corinthians chapter 13 if you want to know what real love is.
I could find more, but do I really need to?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
For the first time I agree with Anageth.
I suggest you do your research better. All of your sources are the same, which suggests that the lack of other souces (particular ones that are not heresay) might not support the views you hope so you casually sweep them under the rug. Just in a simple search I found this, about Hitler's Table Talk:
Hitler's Table Talk
Those who deny Hitler as a Christian will invariably find the recorded table talk conversations of Hitler from 1941 to 1944 as incontrovertible evidence that he could not have been a Christian. The source usually comes from the English translation edition by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, with an introduction by H.R. Trevor-Roper.
The table talk has Hitler saying such things such as: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."
But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:
Yes, I read that anti-CHristains dismiss Hitler's table talk as being from the anti-catholic Bormann. It is one thing to say that Bormann "edited" or "filtered" what Hitler said. It is another thing to say that Bormann fabricated out of thin air long sections of anti-Christian rhetoric. What are Bormann's motives for such a fabrication of a document not meant for public consumption?
1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the anti-Catholic, Bormann)
2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations. That's just false! Many Hitler historians reference Hitler's anti-Christain sentiments; Hans Kung, Allan Bullock, Ian Hershaw & Walter C. Langer (each using several sources, not just table talks as you suggest). But as this is a forum, not a research paper, I included only one source. As for public denounceiation, CHristianity was a norm at the time and Hitler knew immediately denouncing CHristianity would be bad for him. It is said the he was especially God-fearing when he was comparing himself to CHrist. This is ego-centric manipulation and in no-way resembles CHristianity. Hitler lied and used disengenuous statements in almost every public address he gave. Take this one for example;
"The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers.... .And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable" published in the Nazi Völkischer Beobachter on October 26, 1930
3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity.
4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive" Christianity.
quoted from http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm , with the points detailed out more in that web page. You can attack my source if you wish, as there is an agenda involved with it, but there is reasonable doubt for your source.
Also check http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2002/nov02/carrier.php , : But we have no evidence that he was perpetuating a ruse. Even in unguarded moments, he asserted faith in God and Christ. His entire philosophy was thoroughly intertwined with and built upon the religious assumptions of Christian theism. Hitler was an admirer of Jesus but he obviously did not take to heart any of the teachings or practice this belief you claim to attribute to him. So was Hitler CHristain?? Not in any sense of the spirit or letter of the CHristain law. I will end with a quote by an anonymous internet source that gave a good summary for the CHristian arguement;
If the question is, "can someone read the New Testament and then go off and do horribly bad things?" then the answer is yes. If the question is "was Hitler in the tradition of mainstream Christianity" then the answer is no. The only "value" in saying "Hitler was a Christian" with an iconoclastic meaning for "Christian" is as a tool of anti-Christian propaganda towards the end of misleading people.
Also http://www.liesexposed.net/nfp/tabletalk/tableThe talk.html : Thus, in dealing with the Table-Talk, we have many problems. First, the only English translation available, the Trevor-Roper edition, is hopelessly corrupt; it is a translation of Genoud's translation, and Genoud's translation has been purposefully altered. What did this Swiss banker who claimed to be a Nazi really have planned? At best, he was a confused atheist who sought to de-Christianize National Socialism, á la Bormann; but at worst, and probably more realistic, he was an agent of the Jew propagandists who spent much of his personal fortune buying up Nazi relics and distributing supposedly authentic texts like the Table-Talk. The historian David Irving has stated that Genoud admitted that he personally forged a document called Hitler's Last Testament. Genoud also spent years in court trying to sew-up copyrights to the Table-Talk to ensure that his perversion of the document would be the only one available. Indeed Picker's German text was not complete, so that left Genoud plenty of room to falsify the text all he wanted. It was not until 1980 that Jochmann's complete German text was published, but even this is merely a printing of a text that the forger Genoud had in his possession for nearly thirty years, plenty of time to corrupt the post 1942 entries all he wanted, since he knew that his manuscript was the sole source for these entries.
There is still gorunds to believe that Hitler was decidedly Christian. It's not quite so easy as you think to sweep such a "monster" under the rug as simply quoting a small number of highlights from a single source.
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
Funny thing about Nazis....
The Nuremberg trials of leading Nazis conclusively proved that they attempted genocide against the Jews, resulting in the Holocaust, in which some six million Jews were killed. But one senior member of the US prosecution team, General William Donovan, compiled a huge amount of documentation that the Nazis also planned to systematically destroy Christianity.
Donovans documentsalmost 150 bound volumeswere stored at Cornell University after his death in 1959, and are now being posted online at the Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion. This criminal conspiracy involved the very top Nazis, including Adolf Hitler and propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels, as well as Hitler Youth leader and Nuremberg defendant Baldur von Schirach.
These documents show that the Nazis, right from the beginning, realized that the church would have to be neutralized because of its opposition to racism and aggressive wars of conquest. So they planned to infiltrate the churches from within; defame, arrest, assault or kill pastors; reindoctrinate the congregations; and suppress denominational schools and youth organizations.
Bible-believing, evangelical churches were in the forefront of opposition, as opposed to compromising churches. Without a firm belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, liberal churches were more readily inclined to reinterpret Christianity to suit the ruling pro-evolution ideology, which is similar to what happens with Darwinistic science today.
As early as 1937, Protestant churches issued a manifesto objecting to Nazi policies, and the Nazis retaliated by arresting 700 pastors.
In an ominous parallel with current clamours by humanist and self-professed civil liberties groups to keep Creation in the church and obliterate all traces of Christianity from public life and schools, The various Christian Churches were confined as far as possible to the performance of narrowly religious functions, and even within this sphere were subjected to as many hindrances as the Nazis dared to impose.
All this furthered the Nazis aim of a slow and cautious policy of gradual encroachment to eliminate Christianity and use the churches organizational structures for their own purposes.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
You know what, I have to applaud the OP.
Good for you outofctrl
Our nations were founded by Christians. Our nations were built by Christians. It saddens me to see the extent to which all these other cultures have come in to tear down our society piece by piece, and the mealy mouthed whiners and malingerers just expedite the process.
The Jews have their Jewish nation, Islam has its own nations. Why can't we have our Christian nation? The majority of north americans are Christian, yet we are bound and gagged by the minority of others that cry about infringement of rights and so forth.
North America would be a better place if all non-christians were told to leave. If they don't want to live in a Christian nation, that's fine. Go to South Africa, or Lebanon, or Bhutan. I don't care. Just don't try to ruin our great country by taking out the spriit of the people that made it great.
Merry Christmas.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000